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Zags11
12-10-2011, 07:25 PM
Sacre played fairly well, but 23 owned our whole team. I think too big for hart and too quick for Sacre. I noticed Carter barely played and when he did turned The ball over 3 times. Hart has heart and knack for tough d. Pangos again hasn't started hot or knocked down shots right away. Harris killed us. I believe he was 2-12, and missed bunnies and got his crap swatted. Bell was awesome in the 1st half but didn't do anything but turn ball over couple times at the worst of times. Dower just doesn't do much and msu bigs owned us on the inside. The turnovers were the huge dagger for us especially late in the game.


Now.....David Stockton. He was best player on court, made me shut up with that game. He was really good, missed some free throws but knocking down some 3's and was our biggest shooter from behind the arc. It was a tough loss and I though we would be 6-1 after 7 games, but 5-2. I believe with just our talent we win wcc. And hopefully at end of year we can jump over the bump, instead of face planting.

JPtheBeasta
12-10-2011, 07:48 PM
It's a shame that Dower has been so inconsistant so far this year, because he was probably our best option at the 4 to guard Green.

Our backcourt just isn't there yet. The first part of the game I chalked up to jitters, but it didn't get much better. Our strength is ours bigs, but their game relies so heavily on the guards to feed them the ball and create spacing. I have been down on our defense in the backcourt, but they did pretty well this game. There were just too many turnovers to win this one.

GBJ keeps getting better and better every game.

Harris was off and didn't have the energy of the past few games. I think Michigan took him out of the game on the offensive end and he let it carry over.

Not complaining about the refs, but if a few of those 50/50 calls go our way we could have pulled this one out.

Bulldog
12-10-2011, 07:48 PM
Xavier and BYU looked very good today.

04ZagFan
12-10-2011, 07:50 PM
Turnovers Turnovers Turnovers

Reborn
12-10-2011, 08:19 PM
This one is pretty easy to evaluate. Damon Gree 34 points and a career high took it upon his shoulders to make sure Sparty won. Talk about leadership. Ellias Harris on the other hand scored 6 points on 2-11 shooting for 19%. He was 0-2 from the 3 pt line. Green was 11-13 and 4-5 from beyond the 3 point line. One player, Harris lowered our shoot % to under 50# while one player for them, Green made their shooting percentages look real good.

Gonzaga did a great job of guarding their guards, who can also shoot, and are great penetrators. Congrats to our guards on defense. Great job. The Zags outrebound Michigan St which is the #2 rebounding team in America by 7 rebounds and we outrebounded them by 3 on the Offensive boards. Great job on the boards Zags. Zags turn it over 19 times to Sparty's 15. They were almost as bad. OUr guards outscore their guards 39-19. If you would have told me we would outscore their guards by that much and still lose I would have definitely thought you were lying. Stockton played GREAT, and Bell played pretty darn good. Few chose to go with our low post players the second half and excluded Bell in the offense. To me that was a huge mistake. But who would have thought Harris would play that pathetic. He came out after halftime so determined to go one on one and I think he turned it over two straight times and let Sparty score an easy shot on a drive which Helped Sparty pull away and get some distance right after the half. The most important times of the game for me are right after the half and at the end of the game. We did ok at the end, but played horrible right after half, which is almost always what happens in the big games Gonzaga loses. Izzo gets his guys fired up and Im sure Few is his usual low key self, and his teams almost always come out of halftime flat. And Elias never stopped trying to force his game by pathetic one on one moves. He is at his very worst when he goes one on one.

I expected a lot more from Harris. And IMO he had NO energy for this game for some reason. I'll never understand that. It just blows my mind that Green could so dominate a game and Harris play so bad. Oh well.

We have learned one thing, imo. What we thought was our strenth is NOT. I hope Few has learned that. Our post players are not our strength, especially against a team like Michigan State. Robert got 16 which is pretty good for a center who plays against Michigan State. He still needs to learn to pass out of triple teams. Yes they had to triple team him. So that says a lot for him, and the fact he got 16. If Harris had gotten 16 we would have won. In fact if he had gotten 14 we would have won.

The other thing that shocked me is that Green really wasn't going all out in guarding Harris because he had 3 fouls at the beginning of the second half. Izzo left him in and I thought that that was a huge mistake. But Harris can not even score on a defender who is probably only going about half speed on defense.

I also thought Pangos played horrible. He had 4 turnovers, most of them just stupid passes. I really thought he'd play good tonight. I thought he would know how big of a game this was, and that he'd be hitting his shots the way David and Bell were. But he could not do it. Just 1-3, and it hurt the Zags. He only had 2 assists with 4 turnovers. Thats just horrible. Pangos' problem is it takes him way too long to get his shot off. This is NOT high school. He has to be set and he needs a lot of room. He's not going to get it.

I was so impressed with Bell and Stockton. These guys are what it's about to me. Build the team around them. Get them more looks, more shots, and more plays and Sacre and especially Harris less. One last thing. I would keep Carter on the bench. 3 turnovers in 9 minutes???? Come on Few. Why does he deserve to play? I think it's time to take a good look at Keita as the back up at the 2. At least until Landry-Edi plays.

Am I disappointed? Very very much. I thought all in all the team played great accept for Harris. It's a shame because it was a big game.....

jim77
12-10-2011, 10:51 PM
First off. I'm glad we didn't get blown out. I'm not nearly as bummed about this game as the Illini game. To the game....Anytime you beat MSU on the boards it means you hustled....which I felt our guys did do that. I also thought our coach did a much better job at resting Rob when needed.

On offense we have become terribly predictable....either force it in to ROB (and rack up turnovers)or bomb a 3...or the dash to the hoop and pray for the block call. Does anybody shoot mid range shots anymore? We are allowed to shoot other places besides the paint or 3 point line. All the whining about Mike Harts playing time is amazing...we don't win the rebounding without him. Granted hes not gonna be a threat if he doesn't shoot....which he did not have even 1 attempt. I'd like to see the guy shoot more from the mid range area as he does seem to have the quickness to get open. The team simply made a bunch of mental turnovers...and you're not gonna win with 21 turnovers against MSU. Why so many turnovers? Cause we're used to playing against our own team at practice...MSU plays better defense. Playing once a week does that. What happened to Harris? The guy is not a big scorer in a crowd...he needs the floor spread to create space to really be effective. Problem is when you're guards are struggling to keep possession, spacing becomes a luxury. The other thing is Rob needs to start passing out of doubles and triples again....he doesn't do well with doubles. I hope EDI brings some Offense because right now it is performing poorer than our defense which didn't play bad......nobody on our team is gonna cover D. Green.....I would have zoned them the whole game. I'd still like to see a Stockton-Bell ticket more often....and maybe even throw Kieta in with DS also. Speaking of, whens the last time we saw Kieta or Mooninghoff????? We could use their length on offense.

OZZY
12-10-2011, 10:51 PM
You're Pretty harsh on KP Reborn. I agree not his best game so far. You complained about his low assist numbers, how many shots did EH miss...

4 turnovers from your main ball-handler is high yes, but 3 each from other players (Carter and Dower) who did not have as much responsibility hurt even more at least Kevin had 3 steals and a block (Stockton had no assists or steals). From what I can see the problem tonight is the hole we have at the 3 and 4 spots.

Reborn
12-10-2011, 11:46 PM
I wasn't trying to be too harsh on Pangos. It just was not a very good game out of him on the offensive end. Defensively he was great, and stopped a really good player (Appling) who was player of the week last week in the Big 10. Yet. We needed some scoring from him tonight. And he needed to get plays for Bell more. IMO.

2wiceright
12-11-2011, 12:00 AM
[QUOTE]I also thought Pangos played horrible. He had 4 turnovers, most of them just stupid passes. I really thought he'd play good tonight. I thought he would know how big of a game this was, and that he'd be hitting his shots the way David and Bell were. But he could not do it. Just 1-3, and it hurt the Zags. He only had 2 assists with 4 turnovers. Thats just horrible.

Reborn, Great evaluation of tonights game and for the most part you were right on- as usual with all your posts!

I thought you were a little harsh on Pangos, yet I would like to see him evolving at the rate our other frosh- GJB, too, especially after his "show" against WSU with the 9 treys. You left out on his stat line his 3 steals, along with the fact (from my box score sheet) he was 1 for three from the 3 pt. line, but did shoot 3-8 overall (not great at 38% but one make shy of 50%). He also played very good defense, as is usual for him. I think we just should not have as high of expectations for our true freshman- as we knew (or most had agreed on here) they would have games that would leave us scratching our heads. I think this was one of them for him (not that he needs someone to speak for him...). I heard Few a couple of games ago being asked by reporters if he was concerned that Pangos wasn't scoring big numbers since WSU game. Few said something to the effect he's not a big scoring type of point guard. He mentioned he expected Pangos to be in the 10 to 12 point a game range (which really kinda surprised me). Well, tonight was kind of a stinker but he ended up with 7 points, a block, and 3 steals- and ummmm, 4 turnovers, plus 2 assists. David, though brilliant offensively had 0 assists and 0 steals (which is unusual for him), and Bell 3 assists. The rest of the team combined for 4 assists! Up to this point Kevin has been very good about taking care of the ball. Past that, he needs all the experience he can get and even/especially in big games he may faulter- most freshman will. I don't know, it's not my call, maybe Stocks should start(he's had two extra years of experience(his redshirt year in practice and last year of D-1competition)- especially if he can continue to score at the clip he has been these last two games. I'm all for what makes the team better and the future potential in these kids. But IMO, if we are to be hard on someone- I think it should be on our 3 "underperforming upperclassman"(Dower, Carter, and Harris). I think THATS where the last two games were lost....

Didn't mean to write a book but I continue to value your opinions Reborn!

OOps, posted this too late-sorry..

bartruff1
12-11-2011, 04:56 AM
Great Game, I really enjoyed it...Stockton is making me a believer....Bell started and played big minutes....Rebounding was very good....I really enjoy watching Mike....the announcers were the best... the TO's were painful to watch but correctable...Harris had a bad shooting night...thanks again to Izzo for bringing his team out here....this is very good preparation of the Conference and in my view, we have a chance to keep the streaks alive but it will be difficult...

titopoet
12-11-2011, 05:56 AM
My observations

1. Tom Izzo is one heck of a coach. His game plan took advantage of our inexperienced guards. Example. In the pick and roll, his guys were always cheating on the hard hedge and they disguised so well. None of the GU guards read this and it became a frustrating night as the would be pushed off and then would have to reset. It made out offense sputter all night all. Our guards must have thought their bigs were super quick getting to spot. Not once did any of the GU guards recognized this and decline the screen. (If they would just once decline the screen and attack the basket, the cheating big would have just watched and wide open layup.)

2. A cool and classy move by Few is bringing out the 3-2 match up zone. I just thought he brought it out too late. Instead of five minutes before the end, I thought he should have scrapped his game plan and sprung it at the 15 minute mark when the game was starting to get away. It did take Greene out of the game and cause MSU's offense to sputter. (How cool would have been to have the 3-2 matchup zone lead to victory? For those who may not know, Coach Heathcote developed and mastered the 3-2 matchup zone.)

3. This is going to be life with a core group of talented but inexperienced guards. (Just ask Kentucky who just lost because of similar inexperience.) There is also no way to short cut the learning process. The main issues with the team seems to be communication between the guys on the court and understanding the different ways team prepare for you. (the double of Sacre from the blindside.)

I left with thinking that this GU team is going to be very good, just not there yet.

Reborn
12-11-2011, 06:46 AM
Watched the game over, and as usual it was better than seeing it live. I thought the team, outside of Harris, really did play well over all. They (accept Harris) played hard and really hustled and fought the entire game. I was amazed though at how many stupid passes we made. Passes where it wasn't necessarily the defense that caused the errant pass, but just carelessness. "I guess that's youth for you," you say. How about Carter? Three turnovers in 9 min.

I was really impressed with Gary Bell and David Stockton. Never thought our guards would outplay Michigan State's. Bell is so strong going to the basket. Fearless really. And he's so tough. He always seems to shut his opponent down. And yes! Pangos and Stockton did great jobs on defense. MS's guards are fast and quick. Stockton's free throw shooting was NOT good. If it continues it will hurt us. He can not shoot that poorly from the line.

I think Gonzaga is going to have many close games this year that will be won or lost at the free throw line. I believe the team needs to work on this.

Finally! I think Carter should be benched and left there until he can play the game of basketball at this level. I'm not sure what his problem is, but he has a big one in his head. I always believed he was a winner. I mean he's breaking my heart really. I had so much confidence in him this year and expected him to be a leader, the way guys are at GU their Senior year. He has become so careless with the ball. He plays very good defense, but just is really aweful on the offensive end. Sitting may cure him. And when Landry-Edi begins to play, I think that's going to happen.

MickMick
12-11-2011, 07:38 AM
A bad shooting night is missing jump shots.

A complete failure is missing high percentage dunks and layups.

Harris makes his high percentage shots and GU wins.

People talk about Hart being a "hole" in the offense.

I'll stick up for Hart until the bitter end. His effort is unquestioned.

Your Wooden finalist has to play better than a middlin mid major player.

bartruff1
12-11-2011, 07:46 AM
but I never thought they were a better team, after seeing ND wet themselves, I thought MSU might be at least a little intimidated and with a home court, the Zags would shoot better. Well, that didn't happen, MSU never lost it's poise and after Gonzaga missed so many early shots, they lost confidence in the perimeter game (I think). MSU certainly deserved to win and IMHO there is no defense for a All Ameican who is in the Zone. Green had a career game, and I don't buy the BS that Gonzaga always gives up career games and there are dozens of examples of games that they limited great players and won...dozens of them. I see the sun is coming up and there is a game in the Kennel on the 15th against some heathens so at least the Pope will be on our side.

bigblahla
12-11-2011, 07:49 AM
A bad shooting night is missing jump shots.

A complete failure is missing high percentage dunks and layups.

Harris makes his high percentage shots and GU wins.

People talk about Hart being a "hole" in the offense.

I'll stick up for Hart until the bitter end. His effort is unquestioned.

Your Wooden finalist has to play better than a middlin mid major player.

No"D" E! Too many mistakes on "D" then add in his offensive woes and he gets an "F" in his most important game to date as a Zag.

Landry is the missing link, 8pts and 4 boards a game and this is a better Zag team.

Just my opinion.

Go!! Zags!!!

Thomas_Sutpen
12-11-2011, 07:51 AM
For those who may not know, Coach Heathcote developed and mastered the 3-2 matchup zone.

Great post tito--I didn't know that Heathcote was a 3-2 guy. I'm sure Jud will have some good advice for Few at their weekly lunch.

Oral Roberts is just what the Dr ordered at this point.

Pargo the Destroyer
12-11-2011, 02:15 PM
A bad shooting night is missing jump shots.

A complete failure is missing high percentage dunks and layups.

Harris makes his high percentage shots and GU wins.

People talk about Hart being a "hole" in the offense.

I'll stick up for Hart until the bitter end. His effort is unquestioned.

Your Wooden finalist has to play better than a middlin mid major player.

Come on with hart...... When a starter doesn't score, that's a hole.

Baseline
12-11-2011, 04:13 PM
Michigan did a great job of shutting us down.
Sacrae always had 2 and sometime 3 players around him. They sagged off hart and when the ball was on harts side they sagged Harris's guy also.
When Harris plays he drifts out and his guy tends to stay put and help down low. When Harris gets the ball he hesitates and allows his man to close in. He then can't take the 3 and tries to drive to the basket, but his high dribble is awkward and gets him no where. When he dribbles to the center direction they leave rob and cut him off. Harris never dishes to rob, usually spins and puts up a bad shot with resulting numbers.
Rob is playing a good game but must contend with someone always hawking the ball.
I think the guards were told to pound it into the middle and so they forced bad passes. This is a coaching problem. Bell and Stock did great. Pangos forced a few, but was trying to deliver what the coach wanted (IMHO) but Michigan was ready for that.
The way Harris is playing we have our 2 forwards not delivering offence, unless we get one of these positions going we will keep having the same result.
I did like the couple of drives that Pangos showed during the game, he is expanding his game.

DixieZag
12-11-2011, 04:45 PM
I am in general agreement with everything in this thread. I was at the game and I cannot in anyway question the effort or heart of our guys.

I am going to question the game coach. It was obvious to EVERYONE in our section that this B1G 10 team was way to dominant in interior defense to make THAT our primary scoring option, especially when the refs made it very very very clear that they were not going to call the muggings taking place underneath.

It was also obvious that we could not stop Green, so a zone or some kind of gimmick to keep him from just using us was necessary, it brought us back a little in the first half, and it worked when it was put in WAY too late in the second half.

I am tired of our very predictable offense, dump it in to Rob/Elias, or take a late three, it seems to me that GU used to get their offense off of passes, we didn't have a backdoor screen all night last night, I never saw any screens for shooters at the elbow or up high - I just don't get it. Plus, GBJ started the game so hot and then we went to the FORCE IT TO THE MIDDLE AT ALL COST offense and he got out of his rhythm, we would have done quite well to just let him continue to be aggressive, force the OTHER team to respond to our guy who is hot, instead of forcing ourselves into our predictable offense.

The kids made lots of mistakes but they are just that, kids - and they sure as hell hustled, but the guys being paid lots of money to coach this team don't seem to be giving them the tools to win. One good way to determine if you think the coaches are doing their job - - - when the shot clock goes down to 10 and Rob comes up high on the post, are you suddenly optimistic b/c one of our players is going to have to be aggressive and talented with a created drive or shot????

I am, often. We seem to score easier when the "offense" breaks down and the guys have to be naturally aggressive. That tells me we aren't letting them play their instincts and talents and are imposing a structure that keeps us bottled up. JMHOFWIW.

MickMick
12-11-2011, 05:02 PM
Come on with hart...... When a starter doesn't score, that's a hole.

Come on with Harris...... When a starter doesn't score, that's a hole.

Fixed.

04ZagFan
12-11-2011, 06:33 PM
Come on with Harris...... When a starter doesn't score, that's a hole.

Fixed.

Yup. Mike Hart is never going to score many points.... But he also isn't going to miss a lot of shots, and make a lot of mistakes. The players making mistakes on this team is why we are losing.. Not because of Mike Hart.

jim77
12-11-2011, 06:50 PM
I am in general agreement with everything in this thread. I was at the game and I cannot in anyway question the effort or heart of our guys.

I am going to question the game coach. It was obvious to EVERYONE in our section that this B1G 10 team was way to dominant in interior defense to make THAT our primary scoring option, especially when the refs made it very very very clear that they were not going to call the muggings taking place underneath.

It was also obvious that we could not stop Green, so a zone or some kind of gimmick to keep him from just using us was necessary, it brought us back a little in the first half, and it worked when it was put in WAY too late in the second half.

I am tired of our very predictable offense, dump it in to Rob/Elias, or take a late three, it seems to me that GU used to get their offense off of passes, we didn't have a backdoor screen all night last night, I never saw any screens for shooters at the elbow or up high - I just don't get it. Plus, GBJ started the game so hot and then we went to the FORCE IT TO THE MIDDLE AT ALL COST offense and he got out of his rhythm, we would have done quite well to just let him continue to be aggressive, force the OTHER team to respond to our guy who is hot, instead of forcing ourselves into our predictable offense.

The kids made lots of mistakes but they are just that, kids - and they sure as hell hustled, but the guys being paid lots of money to coach this team don't seem to be giving them the tools to win. One good way to determine if you think the coaches are doing their job - - - when the shot clock goes down to 10 and Rob comes up high on the post, are you suddenly optimistic b/c one of our players is going to have to be aggressive and talented with a created drive or shot????

I am, often. We seem to score easier when the "offense" breaks down and the guys have to be naturally aggressive. That tells me we aren't letting them play their instincts and talents and are imposing a structure that keeps us bottled up. JMHOFWIW.

Nice post Dixie....and DEAD ON....especially the 4th paragraph. Go back and watch the game and you could see we had them on their heels early in the game...and a lead. Then we proceeded to force the ball inside....and turn over the ball.

Not only did we NOT get a backdoor bucket this game, I can't even remember the last time we did have one. In fact, our assists per bucket is very low for a team that supposedly runs the flex..it ain't flexing much either. I guess youth does play a part of that. Bottom line...If this team thinks its gonna go far playing "athlete on athlete" and not using the flex..we'll always loose to teams more "Athletic" then us. Lets run the offense that made this dynasty what it is. Too much standing around on Offense....its not like we can't bring in quality players if the starters get tired.

If you didn't see the Indiana/Kentucky game, go watch them use IQ to take down KU's "athletes"......mark IU down as a school I don't want to see in the touney...if we are fortunate enough to return.

Pargo the Destroyer
12-11-2011, 08:31 PM
Come on with Harris...... When a starter doesn't score, that's a hole.

Fixed.

Cant disagree. Hart has intangibles E won't bring.

04ZagFan
12-11-2011, 08:36 PM
Cant disagree. Hart has intangibles E won't bring.

I think people underestimate what Hart does.. Comes up with steals, loose balls, rebounds, and he's a very good defender. Is he the perfect option? Of course not... Is he on the Spink/Nilson/Pendo level? No, but is he really the terrible "he makes it 4 on 5" guy some say? Not even close.