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MickMick
12-10-2011, 07:03 PM
Was matched up against Harris.

You do the math.

Ezag
12-10-2011, 07:04 PM
Dude looks out of shape but can play. He used Harris all the way.

CaliforniaZaggin'
12-10-2011, 07:08 PM
Hart spent some time on Green too, right? I've had a few beers, so I'm asking.

Ezag
12-10-2011, 07:11 PM
Hart spent some time on Green too, right? I've had a few beers, so I'm asking.

You're right and Hart actually played better D on him and Green still hit shots....must just be his night. Green's basically taken on Harris, Hart, Dower and Sacre all game by himself.

MickMick
12-10-2011, 07:12 PM
Hart spent some time on Green too, right? I've had a few beers, so I'm asking.

A career night. Green played better against Harris, in the kennel, than he has against any other player in his career.

There isn't a shred of luck involved with this.

TheCroatian
12-10-2011, 07:14 PM
Career night.... Seems to be a continued theme against us. I fear we just arent that good. I set my hopes too high.

bostonzagfan
12-10-2011, 07:15 PM
we suck

bballbeachbum
12-10-2011, 07:18 PM
You're right and Hart actually played better D on him and Green still hit shots....must just be his night. Green's basically taken on Harris, Hart, Dower and Sacre all game by himself.

you're right

and Green did outplay EH tonight, who again struggled to finish at the rim while guarded

Virginia Zags Fan
12-10-2011, 07:18 PM
A fantastic all around game. Shot 11-13 and showed a lot of leadership on the floor directing the ball even when he didn't have it. Great game young man. You were the Spartans tonight.

GeorgiaZagFan
12-10-2011, 07:20 PM
...Hart defended most of the first half when Green got most of his points ...not a good matchup for the Zags.

SWZag
12-10-2011, 07:20 PM
we suck

What does that have to do with the thread?

Green is a great player. He's a Senior and he had a career night. He was impressive.

SWZag

DCZag
12-10-2011, 07:23 PM
Green played great - Boston, get a grip....

HillBillyZag
12-10-2011, 07:27 PM
This team is a work in progress and will improve. But any of the bravo sierra I read from some on this Zags team playing at the "next level"? had better cease until most of them learn to play at " "THIS LEVEL " first!

bballbeachbum
12-10-2011, 07:29 PM
You need to watch the game over. Hard guarded Green until halfway through the secnd half. Green made Hart look like a walk-on. Get the game right, ok.
Im tired of Hart getting so much. He's not as good as Meech was.

Hart was game, Green still did what he did. Others did try to check him and got no where either

RockandRollJames
12-10-2011, 07:31 PM
He had 3 fouls with 16 minutes to go and Izzo didn't take him out. As the one dude who is tearing us apart, we had to go at him...and we didn't.

bballbeachbum
12-10-2011, 07:32 PM
This team is a work in progress and will improve. But any of the bravo sierra I read from some on this Zags team playing at the "next level"? had better cease until most of them learn to play at " "THIS LEVEL " first!

got some work to do, no doubt. did some nice things in the first half, Green took over after halftime, and it was David who responded best for the Zags at home

bballbeachbum
12-10-2011, 07:35 PM
He had 3 fouls with 16 minutes to go and Izzo didn't take him out. As the one dude who is tearing us apart, we had to go at him...and we didn't.

EH made most of his plays going at Green for a stretch when Green had 3, around the 11-14 minute marks of 2nd half? something like that. Green was smart and controlled, gave ground at that point of the game, EH did a few things then but Green didn't bite, didnt foul

Bulldog
12-10-2011, 07:36 PM
Was there any chance we could have doubled up Green?

bballbeachbum
12-10-2011, 07:43 PM
Was there any chance we could have doubled up Green?

good call, or some other look for him to deall with...yes, but maybe it's not in the bag. maybe this will help to add it. Zags responded well defensively down the stretch though I thought with the changing D's and multiple looks. it was working, good to see even in defeat

04ZagFan
12-10-2011, 07:43 PM
You need to watch the game over. Hard guarded Green until halfway through the secnd half. Green made Hart look like a walk-on. Get the game right, ok.
Im tired of Hart getting so much praise. He kills Gonzaga when he's in. In the same way Meech did. No one guards Hart and it screws up our offense. And against an elite player like Green, Hart will look like a walkon. Green knew he had a walkon guarding and schooled Him. He's not as good as Meech was.

Yes Harris guarded him too, and may have done worse. Harris kept giving him the open 3 and Green kept hitting it. He shot 11-13. Harris was simply pathetic tonight in his match up with Green. One think is certain, Harris mayb be back here next year of he does't play in Europe.

The difference between Hart and the other guys is that Hart knows his limitations and avoids bad decisions.. He doesn't hurt the team near as much as you haters want to think.

Rob, Elias, Pangos, Sam all make bad decision after bad decision...

btzag
12-10-2011, 07:52 PM
Green had a big challenge in front of him and came in and kicked the crap out of the Zags. He was unconscious out there and had the proper attitude for the environment he was in. He just beat us. He probably will not play a better game all year against a similar top opponent. This was similar to having Sacre popping off screens and draining threes, just a head shaking performance as the guy couldn't miss.

What can you do? Well for starters play D like MSU, contest absolutely everything on the court. Every pass, every shot, off the ball and on the ball. With our depth we do this especially with the size and athleticism we have...but it's just not our team identity.

04ZagFan
12-10-2011, 07:57 PM
I don't give a crap about Green's numbers. Who are you going to put in to stop him? Hart did better then anyone else could.

Yup, super tough match up...

Fact is, we killed ourselves with bad decisions and turnovers.. Green was really the only player that did anything. We should have won. Our guards defended their guards great.

Cut out the 200 turnovers, and we win despite Greens monster day.

HillBillyZag
12-10-2011, 07:58 PM
That is being very generous, to call the present G.U. squad a "top" opponent. Bless you!

VinnyZag
12-10-2011, 11:13 PM
Seemed to me that Hart guarded Green most of the game, and I think that was a really bad decision by the coaches. Hart's simply not strong enough or big enough to guard Green. They moved Harris over after it became painfully obvious that Hart wasn't capable of guarding a guy as big as Green. And while I think Harris is a poor defender, he actually was more effective against Green.

Chicken Ball
12-11-2011, 05:17 AM
Seemed to me that Hart guarded Green most of the game, and I think that was a really bad decision by the coaches. Hart's simply not strong enough or big enough to guard Green. They moved Harris over after it became painfully obvious that Hart wasn't capable of guarding a guy as big as Green. And while I think Harris is a poor defender, he actually was more effective against Green.
+1. Hart was on Green most of the game and was completely overmatched--unsurprising. How many pounds did Hart give up? Harris couldn't stop him, either, but Hart was not the answer. Yet another game in which we missed Landry-Edi's defense.

MickMick
12-11-2011, 06:14 AM
What does it say about Harris that coach Few would prefer that Hart defends Green?

What does it say about Harris that the game was relatively even throughout the first half when Hart guarded Green and lopsided in the second half when Harris began defending Green?

What does it say about posters here that automatically assume my matchup issue was about Harris on the defensive end, when in reality, Green defended Harris into a dreadful offensive performance?

What does it say about posters here that are quick to be critical of a hustling glue guy like Hart, who despite his failings, comes up with enough good plays to warrant playing time, yet quick to defend Harris, who contributed absolutely nothing positive for GU?

rijman
12-11-2011, 07:38 AM
Apparently the AP was not impressed with Green because here is their quick game recap in the San Diego UT:

"Michigan St. 74, No. 23 Gonzaga 67: Adreian Payne had nine points for visiting Michigan State (8-2), and Derrick Nix and Keith Appling added eight apiece."

If I had written the game recap I'm pretty sure Green's name would have been mentioned.

Pargo the Destroyer
12-11-2011, 08:02 AM
we suck

Good to know you group yourself with the players. In that case....you being banned from the board does indeed indicate a general amount of suckiness.

BobZag
12-11-2011, 09:49 AM
Green murdered der Zags. Homicide in the first degree.

Bogozags
12-11-2011, 10:23 AM
+1. Hart was on Green most of the game and was completely overmatched--unsurprising. How many pounds did Hart give up? Harris couldn't stop him, either, but Hart was not the answer. Yet another game in which we missed Landry-Edi's defense.

We are all entitled to our opinions but am curious as to how you come up with the thought that GUY would have been able to stop Green? or that Guy will be a defensive stopper at the SF position. He has not played a game this year and I look forward to watching play but really doubt he is the "answer" to our prayers...maybe he will be but at this point, the jury has not even been picked.

Green had one of the greatest ever games against the Zags! He played well on both ends of the court BUT dominated on the offensive end - in both halves!

Hart, our best defender, was over matched and Harris couldn't keep up. Guy, might be more athletic but would still be giving up lots of size too!

It was Green's night and don't believe any GU player could have contained him.

Green out played us!

Zag79
12-12-2011, 11:42 PM
We are all entitled to our opinions but am curious as to how you come up with the thought that GUY would have been able to stop Green? or that Guy will be a defensive stopper at the SF position. He has not played a game this year and I look forward to watching play but really doubt he is the "answer" to our prayers...maybe he will be but at this point, the jury has not even been picked.

Green had one of the greatest ever games against the Zags! He played well on both ends of the court BUT dominated on the offensive end - in both halves!

Hart, our best defender, was over matched and Harris couldn't keep up. Guy, might be more athletic but would still be giving up lots of size too!

It was Green's night and don't believe any GU player could have contained him.

Green out played us!

Same old story, different game. If the opposition doesn't go off for 10+ threes, someone has a career night. Regardless of who guarded who, we need a better defensive strategy. Hart, Harris, Sacre, everyone got a chance. Look at the guys stats... A guy who averages 16 ppg went off for 34 against us. :explode: good teams, bad teams, it doesn't matter. Someone will have a career night against us, and it usually results in an L when they do.

primal23
12-13-2011, 07:00 AM
Same old story, different game. If the opposition doesn't go off for 10+ threes, someone has a career night. Regardless of who guarded who, we need a better defensive strategy. Hart, Harris, Sacre, everyone got a chance. Look at the guys stats... A guy who averages 16 ppg went off for 34 against us. :explode: good teams, bad teams, it doesn't matter. Someone will have a career night against us, and it usually results in an L when they do.

+1

bartruff1
12-13-2011, 07:07 AM
+1......80% winning over 12 years..is not my definition of " usually a loss".

cjm720
12-13-2011, 08:23 AM
Was matched up against Harris.

You do the math.

Didn't Hart guard him most of the first half?

I chalk it up to Green playing very very well and is frankly better than anyone on our team. He put up better than average numbers, though. Kind of reminds me of Billy White's game last year in our house...

bartruff1
12-13-2011, 08:42 AM
Fire Izzo..... Freshman Guard scores 33 with 9 threes against WSU.... fire Bone...

Zag79
12-13-2011, 08:55 AM
......80% winning over 12 years..is not my definition of " usually a loss".

The games we have lost, generally thats the case. Our losses are usually due to one plaher going off, or a team being hot from behind the arc. We rarely lose a game for annoy other reason. +1...

Zag79
12-13-2011, 08:56 AM
Fire Izzo..... Freshman Guard scores 33 with 9 threes against WSU.... fire Bone...

Its not a common theme with wsu, nor did anyone say fire few. I merely pointed out that it's common in losses that we allowed a guy to have a career night, which is a fact. Take it how you want from there.

bartruff1
12-13-2011, 09:16 AM
Its not a common theme with wsu, nor did anyone say fire few. I merely pointed out that it's common in losses that we allowed a guy to have a career night, which is a fact. Take it how you want from there. I am not going to do it...but I suspect if you go back over a representative sample of games you will find that Few has defensed most of the elite players they have played and that there have been a small number of career games.....facts are very inconvenient...You take it how you want, but don't quote facts unless you have them...and you don't have them.

Zag79
12-13-2011, 10:28 AM
I am not going to do it...but I suspect if you go back over a representative sample of games you will find that Few has defensed most of the elite players they have played and that there have been a small number of career games.....facts are very inconvenient...You take it how you want, but don't quote facts unless you have them...and you don't have them.

Well I'll do it... I dont spit too many unfactual, self biased opinions because its just not me. So in our two losses this year, the oppositions leading scorer played well above there normal average. Against Mich St, Green went for 34 while he normally averages 16. Leonard for Illinois scored 21 points in only 24 minutes, dominating our bigs and he normally scores no more than 13 (he scored 9 vs Coppin St the prior game). Last year in our losses, San Diego St's Billy White lit us up for 30 (a career high) yet he only averaged TEN ppg last year. 10... In our loss to Kansas St we did a decent job on Pullen (18), but the team went off for 12 threes. Against wazzu Klay hit us for 25, he averaged 21 so we did nothing to stop him. The cougs as a team hit on 11-21 threes as well. Noter Dame, same story. The Irish went off for 11-20 behind the arc, with Carleton Scott (who??) scoring 21 when he averaged only 11. That isn't even mentioning Abromaitis scoring 23, 8 above his 15 ppg season average. Santa Claras Kevin Foster dropped 36 on us, 16 above his average of 20 ppg. San Fran was a really rough loss, we allowed a couple guys to go off. Doolin had 23, averaged 7 for the year. Caloiaro scored 19 when he averaged 9 for the season. Against SMC Mickey went off for 27 in the kennel no less, 11 more than his 16 ppg average. Memphis didn't beat us from one guy going off, but two players doubled there averages with Barton dropping 17 (8 ppg on the year) and Carmouche getting 15 when he only averaged 7 for the year. Finally, BYU in the tournament. Jimmer dropped 34 and the team went off from behind the arc hitting 14-28 from three. So no matter how you want to spin it, in every single loss over the last two seasons we have allowed a guy to go for a career high or the team to light us up from three. I can keep going if you need me to, but im going to assume this is a large enough sample size to prove my point. It's a concerning trend that we routinely fail to stop one guy from hitting a career high, and/or the team to be unconscious from three in almost all of our losses (every single one for the last two seasons).

bartruff1
12-13-2011, 10:41 AM
What about the win's ??...but that is a start...what 10 or 12 games out of 400 or so ?...keep going...what % of games ?? Or what % of losses ? What is average?.... what is common ?... how does that compare to what other coaches do ?? Look...there is one fact that is indisputable, the man has won more than 300 games at a 80% winning percentage... to make the claims that have been made in here about a failing, a lack of skill or knowlege based on a small sample of high profile games is to ignore the successes that would tend to counter those claims...

04ZagFan
12-13-2011, 11:00 AM
That is a start...what 10 or 12 games out of 400 or so ?...keep going...what % of games ?? Or what % of losses ? What is average?,,, what is common ?... how does that compare to what other coaches do ?? Look...there is one fact that is indisputable, the man has won more than 300 games at a 80% winning percentage... to make the claims that have been made in here about a failing, a lack of skill or knowlege based on a small sample of high profile games is to ignore the sucesses that would tend to counter those claims...

I'm not going to speak for 79, but I'm assuming he DOESN'T want Mark Few fired... I think you can still like a coach and love what he's done for your program, and question some decisions...

We all know his winning percentage.... We all know that the PROGRAM has greatly overachieved. That doesn't mean, however that all the teams have overachieved.. I'll say this now, so you can't bash me and tell me I'm stupid and that I don't know how much of a good thing we have, ect.. I love coach Few and I never want to see him go.. If we lost Few, we might watch GU fade into irrelevance, which would be heart breaking, really..

However, outside of GU fans, there is a growing perception of our program, that our teams are underachieving along with our players... I find that I am constantly having to defend the program when talking with people who aren't fans of Gonzaga. Yes, in the big picture, what the program has done is absolutely remarkable.. Wouldn't trade it for the world...

But the losses to the Nevada's, Wyomings, Davidsons, , Texas Techs, in the tournament along with the blowout losses to GREAT teams, but certainly teams we could AT LEAST compete with, and of course the embarrassing choke against UCLA.. All I'm saying is that I don't think it's unreasonable to look at those teams, and expect a little more.... If we saw them play at the same level allll season long, that's one thing.. But that hasn't been the case. Every season we show signs of being a great team.. When can we finish strong? play our best basketball for the majority of the season? I'd have to go back to 2003, when we lost to Arizona, and say "YES, we played our absolute best basketball possible, and came up short." I can accept that.

bartruff1
12-13-2011, 11:04 AM
Get new friends ...that are informed, objective and fair minded..

04ZagFan
12-13-2011, 11:45 AM
Get new friends ...that are informed, objective and fair minded..

So you don't think that we've underachieved on any level? Really?

bartruff1
12-13-2011, 12:49 PM
So you don't think that we've underachieved on any level? Really? Always low ball your friends. If you brag about your team, when it falls short, they will gleefully point it out. Allways lower expectations and be grateful and humble if you exceed them. It will completely disarm your friends. You might be giving them weapons to use on you . Now that ZagPower and I are part owners of the Packers, do we expect to go to the Super Bowl...well yes...but do we brag about it ??? No way. With a girl at quarterback, hell, anything can happen....wait a minute...wait a minute ZP is telling me Erin Burnett is not the quarterback ....it is a guy, and all this time I thought it was that cutie with the dimples...

Bogozags
12-13-2011, 04:00 PM
Same old story, different game. If the opposition doesn't go off for 10+ threes, someone has a career night. Regardless of who guarded who, we need a better defensive strategy. Hart, Harris, Sacre, everyone got a chance. Look at the guys stats... A guy who averages 16 ppg went off for 34 against us. :explode: good teams, bad teams, it doesn't matter. Someone will have a career night against us, and it usually results in an L when they do.

The more thought I gave to this game and its outcome, we played pretty good "team" defense as he was the only one in double figures. I believe, we play them again, on a neutral court, we win this game hands down...I would want to play them in the tourney...no way Green can do that twice against us...shooting 11 of 13 is an incredible night to say the least.

Just my opinion of course...

maynard g krebs
12-13-2011, 04:56 PM
So you don't think that we've underachieved on any level? Really?

One top 25 recruiting class on one of the two major recruiting sites, ever. Team consistently in the top 25. Simple logic says that's overachieving.

04ZagFan
12-13-2011, 07:16 PM
One top 25 recruiting class on one of the two major recruiting sites, ever. Team consistently in the top 25. Simple logic says that's overachieving.

That's settling. Do you not think we've got the personnel to do a little better? Our recruiting classes now are a hell of a lot better than they were when we made 3 straight trips to the sweet 16 and beyond....

Has the program overachieved? Yes.. But I've seen a team with an incredible amount of talent (most recently Pargo-Downs-Daye-Heytvelt-Bouldin) do a whole lot of nothin`.. Of course losing to UNC isn't anything to be embarassed about (although you could argue we should have been more competitive) we wouldn't have been put in that situation had we taken care of business in the OOC and not lost embarrassing games to the likes of Utah and Portland State.

Listen, I'm not saying Few isn't a great staff, and I'm not saying we're bad, or any of that BS.. I'm just saying, it was A LOT more fun when our TEAMS constantly overachieved, especially in the NCAA tournament. Battles against UCONN, Michigan State, Arizona... THOSE were games we played our hearts out and lost.

Since? A lot of disappointing losses, and several games we shouldn't have lost at all. Am I that in the wrong for expecting more? Don't tell me we didn't have the talent to compete with BYU, UNC,UCLA, Texas Tech, ect.. We did.

sonuvazag
12-13-2011, 07:58 PM
Expect more if you must, but...

Every season ends with a disappointing loss for 63 out of 64 tournament teams (or whatever number of tournament teams there are.) Duke, Kansas, and UNC could make the same complaint for every year they don't win a NC.

You cannot expect Final Fours and also expect your college team to consistently overachieve at that level of expectation. That reasoning is an inherent fallacy. There is no exceeding that expectation. Only meeting it.

04ZagFan
12-13-2011, 11:05 PM
Expect more if you must, but...

Every season ends with a disappointing loss for 63 out of 64 tournament teams (or whatever number of tournament teams there are.) Duke, Kansas, and UNC could make the same complaint for every year they don't win a NC.

You cannot expect Final Fours and also expect your college team to consistently overachieve at that level of expectation. That reasoning is an inherent fallacy. There is no exceeding that expectation. Only meeting it.

I don't expect Final Fours but I do want ONE Final Four! Butler got 2, George Mason got 1, why can't we?

Also, in the "beginning" years there where the NCAA tournament losses where I wasn't disappointed in the Zags losing... Maybe disappointed that they lost, but certainly not disappointed in the way they played.That's really all I ask.

cjm720
12-14-2011, 07:26 AM
I don't expect Final Fours but I do want ONE Final Four! Butler got 2, George Mason got 1, why can't we?

Also, in the "beginning" years there where the NCAA tournament losses where I wasn't disappointed in the Zags losing... Maybe disappointed that they lost, but certainly not disappointed in the way they played.That's really all I ask.

So you don't think seeding, location, and matchups presented by the committee have anything to do with it? Is it just an excuse for us to have had to travel 3000 miles to play in Davidson's backyard; or for a ref to whistle Ronny for two early fouls (awful calls) against Nevada. Or are those just excuses? A lot goes into getting to the final four, and I contend luck is one of them. YOu have to seize your opportunities, but sometimes it just doesn't work.

For Butler to do what they've done is one of the more remarkable sports stories in all of history IMO. They play a toughness on D that I wish we matched, but they're different coaching styles.

I'm comfortable with Few and recognize a good thing when I see it. We have and will continue to improve in most ways. And I'm confident in saying that.

cjm720
12-14-2011, 07:44 AM
That's settling. Do you not think we've got the personnel to do a little better? Our recruiting classes now are a hell of a lot better than they were when we made 3 straight trips to the sweet 16 and beyond....

Has the program overachieved? Yes.. But I've seen a team with an incredible amount of talent (most recently Pargo-Downs-Daye-Heytvelt-Bouldin) do a whole lot of nothin`.. Of course losing to UNC isn't anything to be embarassed about (although you could argue we should have been more competitive) we wouldn't have been put in that situation had we taken care of business in the OOC and not lost embarrassing games to the likes of Utah and Portland State.

FWIW, we played N. Carolina better than anyone in the tourney that year.

Zag4Hire
12-14-2011, 07:56 AM
Interesting Note: Draymond Green had the first turnover of the game and the first turnover of the 2nd half. The only two TOs of the game for him.

Here is what killed me. We can argue Hart did the best that he could and Harris could have done more.

At 16 and change in the 2nd half, when MSU was starting to make a run at 44-38, Green picked up his 3rd foul. That is when I was thinking back to the Gonzaga-UConn game at Boston Garden when you can tell Few & Co. told Pargo and the backcourt to go at Thabeet and get fouls on him. Get him on the bench. Thabeet was more of a defensive presence than anything but Green was obviously lighting it up. You get one more on him some way, some how. That puts him on the bench for an extended period of time and I thought MSU was laboring to get points when Green wasn't shooting. Green only ends up with four fouls and doesn't pick that up until 49 seconds are left in the game. To me, that was the difference. Not that Green had a career night but being the type of player he is, he had no business putting it up against the Zags. Most career nights are by guards nailing 3 point bombs and are more sharpshooters preying on the lax 3 point defense. A guy like green who is talented but very physical on defense, get the 4th foul and end the career night in it tracks.

Baldwinzag
12-14-2011, 08:21 AM
At 16 and change in the 2nd half, when MSU was starting to make a run at 44-38, Green picked up his 3rd foul. That is when I was thinking back to the Gonzaga-UConn game at Boston Garden when you can tell Few & Co. told Pargo and the backcourt to go at Thabeet and get fouls on him. Get him on the bench. Thabeet was more of a defensive presence than anything but Green was obviously lighting it up. You get one more on him some way, some how. That puts him on the bench for an extended period of time and I thought MSU was laboring to get points when Green wasn't shooting. Green only ends up with four fouls and doesn't pick that up until 49 seconds are left in the game. To me, that was the difference. Not that Green had a career night but being the type of player he is, he had no business putting it up against the Zags. Most career nights are by guards nailing 3 point bombs and are more sharpshooters preying on the lax 3 point defense. A guy like green who is talented but very physical on defense, get the 4th foul and end the career night in it tracks.

While I certainly agree with the premise, its one of the reasons we lost the game. The Coaches, players, fans were all thinking the same things: get this Green guy outta the game and on the bench.

It was obvious Coach Few's game plan during the 1st 10-12 mins of the 2nd half was to draw a 4th on Green, however, Elias wasn't up for the challenge that night.

It wasn't a coincidence Elias attempted and subsequently missed 6-7 straight shots around 5 mins into the 2nd half -- we should have went with someone else and ran our offense, b/c the alternative wasn't working. We've already analyzed why we were unable to contain Green, yet we didn't score enough to beat Sparty either. If one player for the opposition has a career night and no one else hits double-figures is usually a good thing -- Draymon Green was the only MSU player over 10 pts = solid team defense.

The moment our offensive game plan shifted to Elias scoring & drawing a foul in DG, our momentum was stunted & we fell into a trap. Elias was 2-11, w/ most missed coming in 2nd half. This killed any chance we had to stay with the Spartans and rally late.

David Stockton must have noticed this as well, b/c the minute he entered the game he made things happen by "opening" up the offense and not just 'pass it Elias and watch'. Still can't understand why we went away from Gary Bell who was feeling it, 2-3 from 3pt with no more attempts downy he stretch, and only player able to find open spaces in MSU's defense. GBJ literally became the 4th and 5th option in the 2nd half once we focused on drawing a foul on Green -- at some point, it was time to accept reality -- Elias couldn't hit the broad side of a barn and go with what was working.

Not saying the game plan in the 2nd was not a good idea, b/c it was, yet after 10 mins of realizing the refs swallowed their whistles(See Sacre wasn't getting any more calls) and Elias just wasn't plugged in. It's no one fault and thank goodness our bench "coach" in David Stockton was put back in the game, b/c he realized the redundancy of our predictable offense wasn't going to get us back in the game. We finally started swinging the ball again, getting Sacre some touches late, and making shots -- we were shooting 50% from 3pt, why not keep shooting 'til we miss, right?

We made the right call, it just didn't work.

The Zags could have, and honestly should have won that game the other night. Outside of one player, our guards & Sacre in most instances defended a very physical B10 team very well. Harris didn't have his best night, which is OK, it happens, and Stockton came in and went against the Coaches wishes, which I loved. They didn't tell Stockton to start launching from everywhere on the court and to get someone else involved besides Elias, yet you could tell he wanted to make things happen and did. Thank goodness, a breath of fresh air.

Hopefully, we learned our offense can be the most predictable on the West Coast and to allow our all our talented guards to make plays and open up the offense. Of course the offense should be inside-out identity, yet that doesn't mean EVERY time down the floor either, it just means we rely heavily on good position, rebounding, tough interior play, and getting them the ball on every iso-opportunity. Many teams don't ever utilize their interior as a one-on-one scoring option.

JPtheBeasta
12-14-2011, 09:56 AM
FWIW, Few thinks MSU is a top ten team per his Heister interview on the Show. Not a bad showing for GU, if this is the case. It also shows we are in a great place with the program when there are no moral victories to be taken from a loss like this. To stay OT, I tip my proverbial cap to Green, who played great, but I still feel we made it way too easy on him.

EngineerZag
12-14-2011, 11:40 AM
Nobody else for MSU even got to double figures. Green won the game for them, plain and simple.

Having said that, it is uncanny to me how many career nights we seem to give to individual players of opposing teams ...

rennis
12-14-2011, 11:50 AM
I think Green's offensive onslaught was less important on the score board, and more important in the psyche of the GU squad. They've got to develop a mental toughness against things like that. Guys WILL go off in college ball. It happens every night. You just gotta punch them right back in the nose and go tit-for-tat. That's where we gotta improve as a team collectively...we did a fantastic job D'ing up every other player on the floor... Stocks was awesome, but it can't be just one guy.

..........................................

^ I like the point a few posts above about the UConn game and Thabeet. Mind you, Green is a better all-around player, but I get your point.

Only difference here is 1) we don't have Pargo to go at a guy like Green this year, and 2) with the addition of the charge line under the hoop, it's seriously a coin-toss as to who's going to get the foul near the hoop...it's a lot tougher to go at a big man than it used to be. Refs are relying less on good defensive position and more on "where was the guy in relation to the line" which to me, sucks.

Zag79
12-15-2011, 01:45 PM
What about the win's ??...but that is a start...what 10 or 12 games out of 400 or so ?...keep going...what % of games ?? Or what % of losses ? What is average?.... what is common ?... how does that compare to what other coaches do ?? Look...there is one fact that is indisputable, the man has won more than 300 games at a 80% winning percentage... to make the claims that have been made in here about a failing, a lack of skill or knowlege based on a small sample of high profile games is to ignore the successes that would tend to counter those claims...

I wasnt nitpicking a small % of games, that was every loss we have had in the last two years. You said I didn't have any facts to back up my theory on why we lose, and I proved my point factually. When we LOSE, it's always the same reason. We allow one player to double or triple his average, or let the other team scorch our zone from behind the arc. In those games a change in defensive strategy would be beneficial, that much we know considering we lost the game in a very familiar way. That was the point. Not wether Few is a good coach or if we want someone else. I simply said we lose more games due to poor defense than anything else, and you refuted that by saying it wasn't factual. If every loss stems form the same thing, it's pretty black and white to me. Obviously in the wins it doesn't matter, but thats because we outscored the opposition which always covers up your inefficiencies for the time being. People don't dissect why you won as much as when you lose, just comes with the territory. Love what coach has done for the program, and wouldnt want anyone else at the helm. That doesn't mean I have to agree with every move he makes, especially those that factually occur in almost every loss.

bartruff1
12-15-2011, 01:52 PM
You are absolutely right, I would like to apologize for any trouble I have caused you...and futhermore I promise to never do it again...thanks again..

Bogozags
12-15-2011, 02:07 PM
The moment our offensive game plan shifted to Elias scoring & drawing a foul in DG, our momentum was stunted & we fell into a trap. Elias was 2-11, w/ most missed coming in 2nd half. This killed any chance we had to stay with the Spartans and rally late.


It has been my experience that coaches have a tendency to "go after" that one player, that if is not in the game, would allow "us" to dominate. This happens time and time again and sometimes it is successful and often it isn't.

You are right, those possessions where we went "right at" Green, we lost momentum and turned the ball over and don't recall us having any success at scoring a single basket.

I think it is a coin toss as to whether "going after" the player is the best course of action or to rather just play your "normal game" and in the course of play, we "get" the player and not force the ball. In this case it didn't work and as you stated, we did lose all momentum.

Good Post!

Zag79
12-17-2011, 09:15 AM
You are absolutely right, I would like to apologize for any trouble I have caused you...and futhermore I promise to never do it again...thanks again..

Its never a problem, nor do I mind showing people the way with stats and facts. Anytime! :D Go Zags!