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View Full Version : We need 5 David Stocktons.



kclubfounder
12-10-2011, 06:55 PM
The end.

04ZagFan
12-10-2011, 06:56 PM
Pretty much true. Carrying the team. under 6 foot tall walkon sophomore carrying the team...

thespywhozaggedme
12-10-2011, 07:04 PM
Instant offense off of the bench, just adds a great spark to the team.

kclubfounder
12-10-2011, 07:06 PM
Pretty much true. Carrying the team. under 6 foot tall walkon sophomore carrying the team...

Yep. Although the "under 6 foot tall" and "walkon sophomore" comments almost sound patronizing.

He is arguably the best player on the team. The others are lovable. But they aren't better.

Ezag
12-10-2011, 07:15 PM
DS is fearless....definitely one of the best in crunch time.

kingzag
12-10-2011, 07:17 PM
Stocktons great.

Zags11
12-10-2011, 07:40 PM
He made me eat my words tonight. Lets hope he continues it, we sure need it.

webspinnre
12-10-2011, 07:42 PM
In games we're not playing against a real athletic wing type, I'm absolutely convinced that our current best 5 is Pangos, Stockton, Bell, Harris and Sacre. May that changes when Guy is ready.

Bulldog
12-10-2011, 07:43 PM
He never gives up.

HillBillyZag
12-10-2011, 07:46 PM
I do not think I have seen Harris play a game since his freshman year that lives up to the expectations we all had for him. He has lost the proverbial " fire in his belly".

04ZagFan
12-10-2011, 07:47 PM
Yep. Although the "under 6 foot tall" and "walkon sophomore" comments almost sound patronizing.

He is arguably the best player on the team. The others are lovable. But they aren't better.

You're right, and I didn't mean to make it sound like that... He's not just playing good as a small walk-on, he's just playing good high level college basketball period.

Now, if somebody would join him.... Bell is close, but he's not aggressive enough. Rob is the same Rob. Double him and he'll find a way to turn the ball over. Same with Sam. Now he's getting doubled because people know about him, and he's lost. Elias stinks. Marquise is bad. Pangos isn't allowed to shoot open 3s anymore so he's non existent... It's gonna be a loooong season.

hooter73
12-10-2011, 08:09 PM
cant disagree.

I watched Wroten dismantle Duke for a loss this morning the whole time thinking about what it would be like to have multifaceted athletic players... then Stockton does this.

GonzagaLove
12-10-2011, 08:17 PM
Instant offense off of the bench, just adds a great spark to the team.

I don't like the dismissive, pat on the head, posts towards Stocks. He is the best player we have right now. Period.

Zag 77
12-10-2011, 08:57 PM
I just note that we started 2 freshman guards and had about 5 turnovers trying to force the ball into the post in the first half. That stopped once DS came in.

thespywhozaggedme
12-10-2011, 09:04 PM
I don't like the dismissive, pat on the head, posts towards Stocks. He is the best player we have right now. Period.

You got that from my post? :confused: I love the guy.

allnet59
12-10-2011, 09:19 PM
It's in the blood line. Stockton does not get intimidated no matter what the situation. Some others have a deer in the head lights look right now.

Mantua
12-10-2011, 10:21 PM
David Stockton was our only player with game tonight.

C'mon Coach!

ZagLawGrad
12-10-2011, 10:23 PM
DS is fearless, relentless, and I'm glad he's a Zag.

Vanzagger
12-11-2011, 02:30 PM
needs David Stockton out there like Brad Childress needed Bret Favre on the field. I hope Few keeps his job longer then Childress.

Super talented teams and you rely on 40 year old QBs. Yikes.

75Zag
12-11-2011, 02:34 PM
If we had 5 David Stockton's we could use 3 of them for spare parts and build ourselves a couple of 6'5" shooting guards. Then we could play with the big boys much more successfully.

Go Bulldogs! Get Bigger!

ZagFanInNC
12-11-2011, 03:43 PM
I think we would have a hard time matching up with 5 DSs.

ZagFanInNC
12-11-2011, 03:43 PM
That was a joke by the way.:jk:

Zag79
12-13-2011, 12:28 AM
No thanks, we wouldn't rebound or play defense. If you meant hustle, then I agree. It actually seems to me that David is benefiting from the defense directing there attention to others. Every shot he makes is in contested, or down an open lane both late in the game. He's a good player, and I love the energy and boost he brings to the team. I also know his limitations, and appreciate what everyone else can do for us individually. Going to be a great season, go Zags!

kramzag
12-13-2011, 02:26 AM
If Pangos or Bell had the swagger aka poise and smarts that Stock has, then we'd REALLY be cooking.

Also Stock had 0 assists. He's not going to shoot 4-6 on 3's and score 19 a night. But this also felt like a result of our very OK offense. We relied too heavily on the on-ball screens. We need more off-ball screens setting up jumpers for Bell (and Pangos, if in with Stock). This will utilize Stock's strength of passing and Bell's strength of shooting J's. I hope Mark Few reads this.

bartruff1
12-13-2011, 07:15 AM
I thought this thread was about a boys choir or a x mass pagent....but your right about his courage and heady play...who doesn't need that...

Birddog
12-17-2011, 10:26 AM
Had to revive this thread. I don't recall seeing anyone mentioning Stockton blocking that 3 pt attempt by the ORU guy. ORU did recover the block and hit a 2, but that was still some block by David.

gamagin
12-17-2011, 10:31 AM
Had to revive this thread. I don't recall seeing anyone mentioning Stockton blocking that 3 pt attempt by the ORU guy. ORU did recover the block and hit a 2, but that was still some block by David.

really long arms. That and his quickness somewhat compensate for his height disadvangtage. That block is a good example.

bballbeachbum
12-17-2011, 11:06 AM
Had to revive this thread. I don't recall seeing anyone mentioning Stockton blocking that 3 pt attempt by the ORU guy. ORU did recover the block and hit a 2, but that was still some block by David.

surprising play :) man, hope he plays well today, gets his, big challenge for sure

GO ZAGS!!!

RockandRollJames
12-17-2011, 02:23 PM
Why? For one to come off the bench and four to cheer on the bench?

I like Stockton as a backup. It took me a while to start warming up to him. But let's not make him into something that he isn't. Pangos is the better player. Games like today show that Stocks may struggle against bigger, more athletic teams. He absolutely has earned the playing time he's received.

Time for people to misinterpret my post as a Stockton-bash.

kclubfounder
12-17-2011, 02:32 PM
Why? For one to come off the bench and four to cheer on the bench?

I like Stockton as a backup. It took me a while to start warming up to him. But let's not make him into something that he isn't. Pangos is the better player. Games like today show that Stocks may struggle against bigger, more athletic teams. He absolutely has earned the playing time he's received.

Time for people to misinterpret my post as a Stockton-bash.

Time for people to properly interpret your post as a post by someone who can't keep their pie hole shut.

Unless you are a Stockton-basher. In which case you shouldn't be a fraidy cat and should have refrained from typing the final sentence.

RockandRollJames
12-17-2011, 02:46 PM
Time for people to properly interpret your post as a post by someone who can't keep their pie hole shut.

Unless you are a Stockton-basher. In which case you shouldn't be a fraidy cat and should have refrained from typing the final sentence.

Really? I had good and bad to say. Of course you only pick out the bad things, exactly what I would expect from you. Man, some people just don't get it.

I say that he has earned his playing time and that I like him as a backup PG. I also said that I think our other PG is better (something that Coach Few must also agree with seeing as how he starts). Pangos is 2nd on our team in PPG and has a better assist to TO ratio. Saying that Pangos is better is not bashing Stockton. Then, I say that he MAY struggle against big, athletic teams and then all the sudden everything positive I had to say is out the window and the post was just destroying Stockton. He has been huge for us some games and I think he is getting the correct amount of playing time for the most part (today, I would have played him a little bit less, but it was nothing too far off).

kclubfounder
12-17-2011, 03:20 PM
Really? I had good and bad to say. Of course you only pick out the bad things, exactly what I would expect from you. Man, some people just don't get it.

I say that he has earned his playing time and that I like him as a backup PG. I also said that I think our other PG is better (something that Coach Few must also agree with seeing as how he starts). Pangos is 2nd on our team in PPG and has a better assist to TO ratio. Saying that Pangos is better is not bashing Stockton. Then, I say that he MAY struggle against big, athletic teams and then all the sudden everything positive I had to say is out the window and the post was just destroying Stockton. He has been huge for us some games and I think he is getting the correct amount of playing time for the most part (today, I would have played him a little bit less, but it was nothing too far off).

Hate to break it to you, dude. You were DEAD wrong about Stockton from the get go. Now you give him back-handed compliments because you are willing to admit how wrong you were, and you want those of us who were dead RIGHT about him to give you praise.

Take your back-handed compliments and shove them up .....

Sorry, I almost got carried away.

I'm sure David would be very appreciative of your back-handed compliments. I should be too.

It's really big of you.

RockandRollJames
12-17-2011, 03:34 PM
Hate to break it to you, dude. You were DEAD wrong about Stockton from the get go. Now you give him back-handed compliments because you are willing to admit how wrong you were, and you want those of us who were dead RIGHT about him to give you praise.

Take your back-handed compliments and shove them up .....

Sorry, I almost got carried away.

I'm sure David would be very appreciative of your back-handed compliments. I should be too.

It's really big of you.

Haha! Classic kclubfounder! Keep the good work coming!

I was too harsh on him at the start. You, sir, are correct.

Vanzagger
12-17-2011, 06:43 PM
for error with Stock out there is not very big, even with his big hands, long arms, and greatly improved shot. Put him out there with Pangos and Hart it becomes razor thin against final four caliber teams.

Today Coach was brilliant not having Pang and Stock out there together until the final couple. That is one of the rare times in sports where being conservative pays off.

I would even take 5 DS to milk 2 min off the clock up 10.

gamagin
12-17-2011, 07:45 PM
DS over KP or KP over DS has pretty much failed, so far.

DS had four straight excellent games before the BIS, in which he was arguably the mvp. In Seattle, he played well, but less than KP. KP played a good game but not a great one. Neither had a great shooting day but it didn't matter this time.

Clearly, we need them both and both have turned in remarkable performances, usually on different dates.

I look forward to the time when the option is either one, given the ball and half a second, will shoot their treys and any other shots and make about 50% of them.

Had either one of them made just two more of their shots, AZ likely would not have started thinking they could get back into the game and perhaps even win.

Had DS & KP, between them, matched half the treys AZ started canning from wide open positions in the last ten minutes, the dagger would have stuck. imo.

As for which one is going to step up and stick more shots at critical moments, I'd say it's still 50-50. Personally, I'm comfortable with either one of them running the point and taking those shots.

We're lucky to have these options and all the others as well. They seem to be getting more interchangeable by the game. It's all good.

Zags11
12-17-2011, 10:28 PM
he didnt do much today it seemed but those things happen....good backup guard. I didnt know that his ft % is 61% which is terrible for a guard. Kc, you should loosen up with defense of david. Its needy.

Im gla at how we play as team.

Zag365
12-17-2011, 10:42 PM
DS over KP or KP over DS has pretty much failed, so far.

Clearly, we need them both and both have turned in remarkable performances, usually on different dates.

. . . .

Had either one of them made just two more of their shots, AZ likely would not have started thinking they could get back into the game and perhaps even win.

Had DS & KP, between them, matched half the treys AZ started canning from wide open positions in the last ten minutes, the dagger would have stuck. imo.

. . . .

We're lucky to have these options and all the others as well. They seem to be getting more interchangeable by the game. It's all good.

Agree completely. It was especially helpful to have them both on the court today for the last four or five inbounds plays (after Hart/team got caught not being able to in-bound timely). Things were getting a little dicey there and we needed to make sure we didn't give AZ any momentum. By subbing Stocks in/out with Hart for the inbounds plays, we got a better ballhandler/dribbler than Hart for breaking the press, also got someone who can hit FTs if fouled.

bartruff1
12-18-2011, 04:59 AM
I know others will have a different opinion and will have their reason's but I am beginning to think that this is Kevin's Team....everyone has a role and makes a contribution, but to me, his play is key. He makes everyone better and just plays so smart and under control.... and the shots he misses are shots he should take. And his defense is better than I would have guessed. The kid is a baller....

Zags11
12-18-2011, 07:47 AM
I know others will have a different opinion and will have their reason's but I am beginning to think that this is Kevin's Team....everyone has a role and makes a contribution, but to me, his play is key. He makes everyone better and just plays so smart and under control.... and the shots he misses are shots he should take. And his defense is better than I would have guessed. The kid is a baller....

No, you hit the head on the nail. We have a freshman who is playing D1 ball vs the likes of Arizona team who is strong guard play and athletic an he has 8 assists versus 1 turnover.....1 turnover.

Zag79
12-18-2011, 10:40 PM
When your guards are shooting 4 for 20, you might benefit from playing your other guards and mixing it up. I agree Pangos is taking this team over, but we don't need to rely on them as much as we are either. Good problem to have, but still somewhat a problem.

bballbeachbum
12-19-2011, 07:30 AM
When your guards are shooting 4 for 20, you might benefit from playing your other guards and mixing it up. I agree Pangos is taking this team over, but we don't need to rely on them as much as we are either. Good problem to have, but still somewhat a problem.

4-20 not very good obviously, others can help. I agree. Also agree w/ gamagin's post. And while KP played well, he's also been yanked early with DS subbing for him and subsequently getting it done. That's happened at least as often as not.

Right now, I don't think this GU team is one guy's team, not close to that to me. Different guys are stepping up each game instead depending, which is awesome and not really a surpirse, right, with the youthful backcourt?

good problem to have. Carter needs to get into that mix stat to push and optimize this team.

bartruff1
12-19-2011, 08:24 AM
Of course there is a difference between a " one man team " and " one man's team ".....it's Kevin's World...others will shine but he is the man behind the curtain...Aaron Craft is the Kevin Pangos of the Midwest. We will go as far has he can take us...he is the Chosen.... he is the few on the court...when Google can't find a answer, it asks Kevin...When Tebow prays it is to Kevin....

bballbeachbum
12-19-2011, 08:46 AM
Of course there is a difference between a " one man team " and " one man's team ".....it's Kevin's World...others will shine but he is the man behind the curtain...Aaron Craft is the Kevin Pangos of the Midwest. We will go as far has he can take us...he is the Chosen.... he is the few on the court...when Google can't find a answer, it asks Kevin...When Tebow prays it is to Kevin....

right on bart :)

Hey, Kevin's done it and is doing it, and did it well vs. AZ even while having an off shooting night. I, along with all, hope he does it again vs. Butler. It's nice to have others, too, who can step in and hold the team's reins when needed, which has also occurred for victory. How's that?

zag67
12-19-2011, 09:22 AM
I think that some should also listen to the announcers. They both said (at different times) that it was great to see the GU guards working so hard at all other aspects of the game. With their shooting off they made plays in different ways (assists, rebounds, and defense). THat is to me what makes great teams. Players that recognize that they might not be doing something good, but find other ways to make it happen. This team may have some slips during the year, but personally I think that this is going to be a great team to follow.

Look what happended to UW yesterday. When their offense was not there they forgot to bring it at the other end.

Vanzagger
12-19-2011, 10:36 AM
IMO, that phrase should not be used for anyone if we lost the game.

gamagin
12-19-2011, 11:30 AM
Of course there is a difference between a " one man team " and " one man's team ".....it's Kevin's World...others will shine but he is the man behind the curtain...Aaron Craft is the Kevin Pangos of the Midwest. We will go as far has he can take us...he is the Chosen.... he is the few on the court...when Google can't find a answer, it asks Kevin...When Tebow prays it is to Kevin....

Of the last four games, DS has had three great (mvp caliber) games and one good (MSU) game while KP & DS had a good overall game (vs MSU) but both had below average shooting games (vs. MSU).

KP actually took the point vs MSU and DS had the point (KP @ the 2) much if not most of the previous three games when the 3-guards were in the game.

I understand the urge to preemptively call the position KP's but I think it is not only unfair (to both) but it's far from decided.

I think the real tie breaker will be when one or the other starts shooting consistently with better results.

Both are willing to shoot, and are shooting, but we need someone to stick the dagger in there or keep the dagger in place when the other teams make their late game runs.

That is how this rivalry will be stettled, imo. It's one thing to discuss who you or I or anyone trusts, but it's another to declare that so and so has earned that trust.

So far, I haven't seen either of these great kids answer that call. Among them DS has canned more critical shots, imo. But not vs. MSU.

So it goes.

Another likely indicator will be a matter of who gets more p.t., or who will be in there at the end of the game. KP got both vs MSU, mostly, I believe, so he's got that indicator working for him. But DS has been on standbye and gone in just enough times to indicate the total trust is still in question. Same with KP coming (or DS) off the bench for the 3 guard rotation or to try something different after Few decides he wants something done/tried differently.

It's a work in process still.

And it's still too soon, imo, to say, as you are wont, who should be handed the reins, despite the heavy leaning towards KP, by you, a large number of posters, and coach Few choosing to start KP as he has.

Fwiw I thought KP played a better overall game than DS v. MSU. I don't think he iced anything in the process, however. And neither has DS.

So it goes.

raise the zag
12-19-2011, 12:50 PM
Of the last four games, DS has had three great (mvp caliber) games and one good (MSU) game while KP & DS had a good overall game (vs MSU) but both had below average shooting games (vs. MSU).

KP actually took the point vs MSU and DS had the point (KP @ the 2) much if not most of the previous three games when the 3-guards were in the game.

I understand the urge to preemptively call the position KP's but I think it is not only unfair (to both) but it's far from decided.

I think the real tie breaker will be when one or the other starts shooting consistently with better results.

Both are willing to shoot, and are shooting, but we need someone to stick the dagger in there or keep the dagger in place when the other teams make their late game runs.

That is how this rivalry will be stettled, imo. It's one thing to discuss who you or I or anyone trusts, but it's another to declare that so and so has earned that trust.

So far, I haven't seen either of these great kids answer that call. Among them DS has canned more critical shots, imo. But not vs. MSU.

So it goes.

Another likely indicator will be a matter of who gets more p.t., or who will be in there at the end of the game. KP got both vs MSU, mostly, I believe, so he's got that indicator working for him. But DS has been on standbye and gone in just enough times to indicate the total trust is still in question. Same with KP coming (or DS) off the bench for the 3 guard rotation or to try something different after Few decides he wants something done/tried differently.

It's a work in process still.

And it's still too soon, imo, to say, as you are wont, who should be handed the reins, despite the heavy leaning towards KP, by you, a large number of posters, and coach Few choosing to start KP as he has.

Fwiw I thought KP played a better overall game than DS v. MSU. I don't think he iced anything in the process, however. And neither has DS.

So it goes.

Per usual, a very insightful, well-said post, Gam. Always enjoy reading and learning from your contributions.

While I agree with your premise above, I feel you depict this friendly/beneficial 'rivalry' closer than it really is:

David Stockton's mins in our last two games, 20 & 13, respectively; while, Kevin Pangos has logged 31 & 29 minutes in our wins.

As you mentioned, they are the trusted PG's on this team and play well with one another. There really is no drop-off b/w the two, except it seems Stockton takes more risks and subsequently is the recipient of "bigger" plays. Pangos seems to play more under-control more consistently and handle the pick 'n roll a bit better. I like them both, yet the reigns seem to be in Kevin Pangos hands and don't see it changing on a dime anytime soon, imo.

I guess at the end of the day, with all things considered 'equal', I'll look to A/TO ratio as a deciding(tie-breaking) factor for a true-PG, as follows:

Stockton (2.4/1.8) = 1.3 a/to ratio in 20 mpg

Pangos (3.7/1.6) = 2.3 a/to ratio in 30 mpg

Interesting results. Pangos averages 1 more assist per game, yet plays 10 mins more as well; however, Kevin still averages less TO's per game and minute played.

I believe this statistic is the primary reason KP is starting and playing 10 more minutes per game than Stocks.

We're lucky to have both and excited to watch them play together for a couple more seasons!

OZZY
12-19-2011, 07:35 PM
I rate David's BB IQ, his tenacity/spirit and his skill set as equal to the best on the team.

IMHO Kevin's ability to drive to the basket, and/or generate fouls in the process is one of the differences between the players. He has shown the ability to hit ft's for a high average and under pressure to boot. His ability to defend at the level he has for a freshman (and from Canada!) has even me surprised.

gamagin
12-19-2011, 09:12 PM
Per usual, a very insightful, well-said post, Gam. Always enjoy reading and learning from your contributions.

While I agree with your premise above, I feel you depict this friendly/beneficial 'rivalry' closer than it really is:

David Stockton's mins in our last two games, 20 & 13, respectively; while, Kevin Pangos has logged 31 & 29 minutes in our wins.

As you mentioned, they are the trusted PG's on this team and play well with one another. There really is no drop-off b/w the two, except it seems Stockton takes more risks and subsequently is the recipient of "bigger" plays. Pangos seems to play more under-control more consistently and handle the pick 'n roll a bit better. I like them both, yet the reigns seem to be in Kevin Pangos hands and don't see it changing on a dime anytime soon, imo.

I guess at the end of the day, with all things considered 'equal', I'll look to A/TO ratio as a deciding(tie-breaking) factor for a true-PG, as follows:

Stockton (2.4/1.8) = 1.3 a/to ratio in 20 mpg

Pangos (3.7/1.6) = 2.3 a/to ratio in 30 mpg

Interesting results. Pangos averages 1 more assist per game, yet plays 10 mins more as well; however, Kevin still averages less TO's per game and minute played.

I believe this statistic is the primary reason KP is starting and playing 10 more minutes per game than Stocks.

We're lucky to have both and excited to watch them play together for a couple more seasons!

I think with the 3 guard system, KP stays in. That would get him more minutes, as a starter when DS enters the fray. Before that (when it was mostly 2 guards), I "think" the p.t. was fairly evenly distributed because one replaced the other.

I would also suggest that like the Meech situation last year, Meech kept starting for quite a while last year, but his p.t. went down. It happened & could happen again if point production doesn't pick up from one or the other, imo. eventually.

But my main point is/was "someone" has to make more points (or a respectable % of shots) atop the key and that hasn't been decided between these two, even though both have represented us well overall.

If the guy who lights it up happens to be DS more than KP, well, I suggest there will be a shift in p.t., even if the starting lineup doesn't change.

Gotta go with whoever can come in and take & make a fair share of shots. Otherwise we slip back into predictability and vulnerability of games past.

I think there were two signals, however, v. AZ that you could be right about the mantle having de facto changed hands to KP. The first was in the three guard setup Sat., where KP was the p.g. (up from the #2 in earlier 3G attempts when DS held the point). And the second was the maturity you mention in KP's game vs. the risk taking aspect of DS's game & the resulting TO's & ratios you cite.

I agree KP "looks", and therefore very well may be, safer on paper and that could be the difference in p.t. I need to watch this more closely and think about it. He's amazingly mature for a freshman and he appears to be gaining confidence by the minute.

But DS, high risk and all, is all about pushing himself and this team, & our opponents, right out of their comfort zone & pace. Speeding up the offense and accelerating the action. Running them ragged.

That brings risks and, as you point out, so far, more TO's with it. His long, fast-paced passes after inbounding, and his continued efforts (risks) to perfect the timing between himself and RS, or SD or EH, underneath, has had its problems. I posit it's more often the receivers than the passer who is a click off in timing. But not always.

His quick hand steals and deflections, followed by some failed efforts to finish at the other end sometimes look (and wind up) sloppy. Until one realizes he created the opportunity in the first place by creating a TO against the other guy.

To me, DS may have to slow down slightly and KP speed up a bit so they can meet in the middle. Both need an extra moment, however, to set up before shooting. It's complicated.

But when you drive the game and the other team like DS does, AND our guys can keep up, we play at a whole new level. Sometimes with KP as the third guard and sometimes with the second platoon.

I think as the season progresses, we will see the best Zags team when KP or DS & GBj, or all three, are firing on all cylinders, in synch w/EH & RS or assigns and moving the ball around quickly until someone is open, ready, willing and able to finish. Not a lot of dribbling but a lot of action and reaction.

When the ball stops, the Zag best able to capitalize & finish, more often, up top and underneath, quickly, will get the lions share of the p.t. as the season continues.

I don't think that has been settled yet. It continues Tuesday vs. Butler. And we get to watch and discuss this further.