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View Full Version : What happened to the SMART Gonzaga teams?



04ZagFan
12-10-2011, 06:44 PM
Seriously?

I can't even remember the last good decision making team we had was.

Player development? Crickets?

Ekrub
12-12-2011, 04:18 PM
Define "smart"

And I can't figure out your obsession with player development. Honestly, GU players generally improve year to year. The tools are there for them, if some guys don't, it's because they don't have the skills or the drive.

kclubfounder
12-12-2011, 04:33 PM
How many times has Gonzaga had a top 16 recruiting class VS how many times have they reached the Sweet 16?

How many times has Gonzaga had a top 32 recruiting class VS how many times have they won a 1st round game?

It seems to me that based on objective facts, #####ing, moaning and groaning about player development at Gonzaga is pretty dang silly - and not based on reality.

75Zag
12-12-2011, 05:00 PM
This seems the perfect opportunity for my annual old geezer rant. From 1971 to 1975 the best part of GU basketball was that my hot girlfriend (who is now known as the lovely Mrs. '75) and I could get cozy in the dark corners of Kennedy Pavilion - well away from roommates and dorm monitors. The quality of basketball was horrible, and the best thing I saw in those 4 years was down the front of my girlfriend's shirt and not on the basketball court. Our older daughter - who by luck and coincidence was not conceived on the upper deck of Kennedy Pavilion - also graduated from GU. She did the Kennel Club thing (want a Hummer - Go See Gee).

GU basketball is what it is. We have attended almost every NCAA game that GU has played. Some are good, some are gut breaking like the UCLA game in Oakland. Those of you that have joined the GU fan club expecting to see a National Championship are delusional. It could happen. I hope it happens. But to expect it is crazy. Statistics about GU vs. national powerhouse teams or recruiting are nonsense. GU is a great place to have graduated from, but if you are expecting Elite 8 or Final 4, you are at the wrong place.

Go Bulldogs! Get Bigger!

ZagNative
12-12-2011, 05:08 PM
Sheesh ... Just when you think it's safe to take a poster off "ignore" .....

zag67
12-12-2011, 05:28 PM
Smart. I think that this team has a great chance of being the smartest team we have had. Some people seem to forget that we have 2 freshmen starting (at the guard positionss), 2 juniors and a senior. Yes, this team made to many turnovers, but many of them weree trying to feed the low post. Another major set of turnovers were by the freshmen guards passing to the wing. These were deflected by fast hands or too fast for the short distance. The last set were by Sacre and Harris when they got the ball down low and did not get it out when tripled. THese are all workable with practice. And remember we lost both by seven when shooting medium and one player getting super hot (normally 20 percent from the 3 point line, yet made 4 of 5). We will have some ups and downs but I think as the year goes on this team is going to get better and better.

04ZagFan
12-12-2011, 05:30 PM
How many times has Gonzaga had a top 16 recruiting class VS how many times have they reached the Sweet 16?

How many times has Gonzaga had a top 32 recruiting class VS how many times have they won a 1st round game?

It seems to me that based on objective facts, #####ing, moaning and groaning about player development at Gonzaga is pretty dang silly - and not based on reality.

So you're saying that our current players have strongly developed from year to year?

Sacre? I see little; just more touches.

Elias? Backwards

Dower? Backwards

Meech? None

Gray? Not a ton....

Like I said in previous threads, maybe it's an unfair expectation, but I just haven't seen a ton of improvement from year to year. Maybe it has nothing to do with the staff, and everything to do with the player.. I don't know. I didn't expect it to be a popular opinion because it questions the staff, but I think it's a fair question to ask....

jazzdelmar
12-12-2011, 05:37 PM
Like I said in previous threads, maybe it's an unfair expectation, but I just haven't seen a ton of improvement from year to year. Maybe it has nothing to do with the staff, and everything to do with the player.. I don't know. I didn't expect it to be a popular opinion because it questions the staff, but I think it's a fair question to ask....[/QUOTE]

keep asking. some sensitive toes here but its hard to dispute reality....you forgot carter.

04ZagFan
12-12-2011, 05:44 PM
Like I said in previous threads, maybe it's an unfair expectation, but I just haven't seen a ton of improvement from year to year. Maybe it has nothing to do with the staff, and everything to do with the player.. I don't know. I didn't expect it to be a popular opinion because it questions the staff, but I think it's a fair question to ask....

keep asking. some sensitive toes here but its hard to dispute reality....you forgot carter.[/QUOTE]

Agree on Carter....

For the record, I love Few and the rest of the staff... I think we are a little spoiled. Maybe I am expecting too much out of the program. Could be. Maybe if I spent as much time following another program I'd see similar development. I don't know, it just seems to me that the program from the Hall/Santangelo era to the Morrison Era was stronger than what we've had since....

It was just a question. I never meant to attack the staff, or offend any member or mod.. I got a private message from a mod saying that they want to ban me for trolling, and also asking if I was 12 years old... I wasn't aware this was such a terrible thing to bring up. I thought it was an interesting question. Am I really acting like a 12 year old troll that needs to be banned?

zagfan24
12-12-2011, 06:04 PM
For the record, I love Few and the rest of the staff... I think we are a little spoiled. Maybe I am expecting too much out of the program. Could be. Maybe if I spent as much time following another program I'd see similar development. I don't know, it just seems to me that the program from the Hall/Santangelo era to the Morrison Era was stronger than what we've had since....

It was just a question. I never meant to attack the staff, or offend any member or mod.. I got a private message from a mod saying that they want to ban me for trolling, and also asking if I was 12 years old... I wasn't aware this was such a terrible thing to bring up. I thought it was an interesting question. Am I really acting like a 12 year old troll that needs to be banned?

Just a suggestion...so feel free to take it or leave it. There is a big difference on here between what is being said and the way it is being said. A lot of posts, especially following a defeat, tend to come off as confrontational, condescending, and/or contrarian -- and thus a good point here and there is overshadowed. Just my opinion.

Can this board be a bit oversensitive? Sure. But you have to err on the side of caution to keep it at a high quality. Look at the comments section on an ESPN story and see what unfiltered, uncensored, non-moderated message board content is like.

allnet59
12-12-2011, 06:08 PM
75 zags... great post had me lol.... your so right about our zags and the expectations we as fans have for this team year after year. Making it to the dance is wonderful winning it all hmmmmmmmmmm.

bballbeachbum
12-12-2011, 06:10 PM
keep asking. some sensitive toes here but its hard to dispute reality....you forgot carter.




Agree on Carter....

For the record, I love Few and the rest of the staff... I think we are a little spoiled. Maybe I am expecting too much out of the program. Could be. Maybe if I spent as much time following another program I'd see similar development. I don't know, it just seems to me that the program from the Hall/Santangelo era to the Morrison Era was stronger than what we've had since....

It was just a question. I never meant to attack the staff, or offend any member or mod.. I got a private message from a mod saying that they want to ban me for trolling, and also asking if I was 12 years old... I wasn't aware this was such a terrible thing to bring up. I thought it was an interesting question. Am I really acting like a 12 year old troll that needs to be banned [/QUOTE]

You really think Rob has not developed? He's still imperfect with plenty of room to still grow, makes recurring mistakes still that reveal the bad habits he acquired learning to play as a kid, but from frosh to now...he's night and day!

Steven developed into a good defender, but more than that, developed into an excellent rebounding guard, a real must in today's game and something that was not in his game before. So overlooked on this board typically.

Meech? struggles and all, he was better last year than his soph year and played his best game in his second to last game. say whatever you want about what that means in the development argument. How about those clutch FTs vs. Xavier last year; no way he makes those sophomore year, and that was for victory--development.

Not all players develop, true, and all of those players above are most imperfect, lots of posters here happy to tell us all about that stuff, repetitively preached as insight

but the hyperbole of NO development earns little respect from this observer. In fact, last year's team was ALL about developing many many players and never quitting on that until, with good fortune, the streaks remained.

yes, I wish other developments also will occur/had occurred...of course. Is that what you mean? then we agree.

GO ZAGS!!!

04ZagFan
12-12-2011, 06:27 PM
I'll admit that my post was presented in a "knee jerk reaction" type of way, due to the MSU game, but I still think it's a fair question.

I expected more from Rob this year, at LEAST better decision making... As for as Elias and Sam are concerned, I think we are all disappointed. Lots of basketball still to be played, but as of now, I am worried. They should be better.

bballbeachbum
12-12-2011, 06:42 PM
I'll admit that my post was presented in a "knee jerk reaction" type of way, due to the MSU game, but I still think it's a fair question.

I expected more from Rob this year, at LEAST better decision making... As for as Elias and Sam are concerned, I think we are all disappointed. Lots of basketball still to be played, but as of now, I am worried. They should be better.

that's a different post than what you were trying to say before. Sam is a sophomore, lots of them struggle, very common, so while I want more from him, I'm not surprised he's a sophomore having struggles, and it sucks, yes, but hardly an indication that no one develops at GU.

Elias, he's struggling. He is not making his open jumpers, so no one is up on him, so his drives and post up games are much less effective, and he's struggling to finish in traffic...we could go on. He grabbed 15 boards vs. ND, but plays how he did vs. MSU too. He's another who, in my view, has learned some bad habits when younger. I really want him to develop out of them, hope he can.

not all players develop like we hope, agree there

bartruff1
12-12-2011, 07:35 PM
Did they quit teaching critical thinking and logic at Gonzaga ?

WallaWallaZag
12-12-2011, 08:58 PM
player development??? how 'bout stockton? i cringed every time he put up a shot last year...

2wiceright
12-12-2011, 11:54 PM
Seriously?

I can't even remember the last good decision making team we had was.

Player development? Crickets?

Keep in mind its still very early in the season with a lot of "talented" Youth. If this team makes the kind of jump last years team made from this point to the latter part of WCC on.... watch out, it'll be a fun ride! And it's way too early to judge the veterans season this early. When we lost Matt last years team took a long time for players to adjust, 1/2 of the year. Why should this season not experience some spotty/sloppy play until the team really gels and is firing on all cylinders? Everyone on a team needs to know and trust each other. This year that is happening under fire, but they have excellent chemistry which will spped up the process (IMO).

If (big if) we win the next two games our confidence soars, the team suddenly is a lot more athletic (Bells improving, and adding Landry) and these guys will have learned how to close out "The big game"....Then the fun part of the season really begins!

GoZags
12-13-2011, 08:44 AM
I always find it "interesting" when comparisons are made to teams with Hall, Santangelo, Frahm, etc. Especially vis a vis how mature they were, how "smart" or how "developed" they were.

I just don't believe these comparisons take into account the former Zags' entire career at Gonzaga. It's very easy to remember the great success of those great Zag teams. It's not as easy to remember the great struggles each of the kids had early in their Gonzaga careers.

Richie as a freshman and sophomore was as turnover prone as any Zag I can remember (and my memory goes back to '73). Matt, while solid -- wasn't as polished as a freshman and sophomore as he was as a Junior and Senior. That's how it works.

Right now this Gonzaga team has 4 guards playing their 1st or 2nd year of college basketball for the Zags. Already, I've seen improvement in the core of the backcourt. It'll only get better (I believe).

Will these guys do what the guys referenced above as "smart" Gonzaga teams -- or "developed" Gonzaga teams do? I don't know. I hope so -- in fact I hope this group of guys can exceed what's happened in the past. I believe they have it in them. I believe with some seasoning (which they're getting) -- there is tremendous, unparallelled upside. I think our backcourt has a chance (a great chance) to "develop" and be the greatest in Gonzaga history.

And I think 7 games into the careers of what could be a "special" backcourt is faaaar too soon to proclaim they aren't "smart" and they can't "develop".

That's what I think.

Timeout!
12-13-2011, 08:48 AM
What happened to the 'smart' Gonzaga teams?

They were, and always have been, over-glorified and put on a mythical pedestal.

The only thing the current team is missing compared to previous teams is experience in the backcourt.

bartruff1
12-13-2011, 08:50 AM
These kids are very smart....very smart and they get Few and they will learn and get better.....they won't be limited by their smarts...