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View Full Version : Can someone please explain to me Fews infatuation with Hart?



thespywhozaggedme
12-10-2011, 05:46 PM
It's literally 4 on 5 for the opposing team whenever he's in, and yeah, he's scrappy, but Draymond Green has been abusing him thus far. I just don't get why he starts and gets so many minutes. :confused:

04ZagFan
12-10-2011, 06:02 PM
I disagree... I think he's done just fine on D all things considered. Who's a better option?

thespywhozaggedme
12-10-2011, 06:19 PM
I disagree... I think he's done just fine on D all things considered. Who's a better option?

I like Hart; love his heart (pun intended) but his scrappiness and hustle isn't enough to offset his negative offense. Green is abusing him tonight. I'm a big fan, think he should get 8-10 mpg, certainly not starting and over 20 mpg. Just my .02$

TheCroatian
12-10-2011, 06:21 PM
Considering Green is 8/10 at the
moment, pretty much anything would be better

810Suited
12-10-2011, 06:23 PM
Id kill for a pangos, bell, carter, Elias, rob lineup

ZagLawGrad
12-10-2011, 06:29 PM
count me as a Hart fan

tlark420
12-10-2011, 06:29 PM
I think our best chance to win would be with dower down low..if that means harris at the 3 so be it but that guy is not a 4 and he looks very dis interested and absolutely no hustle..if his shots ar not fallin he just puts his head down

TheCroatian
12-10-2011, 06:34 PM
When a player has half of the points they have scored you d hope one would try something. Wonder what Izzo would do?

SWZag
12-10-2011, 06:35 PM
Do we really need ANOTHER one of these threads? Every game we get the same exact thread for the same exact players.

810Suited
12-10-2011, 06:37 PM
Dower has been awful each time he checked in. 3 guards Elias and Rob would be nice. Don't know what happened to Carter but I thought it would be he gbj n pangos on the floor a ton this season

tlark420
12-10-2011, 06:40 PM
Maybe guy will answer all our prayers

04ZagFan
12-10-2011, 06:41 PM
LOL at this team.

Program has plateaued.

Development is virtually non existent.

Pangos isn't the future.

Just A Zag
12-10-2011, 06:45 PM
LOL at this team.

Program has plateaued.

Development is virtually non existent.

Pangos isn't the future.

little dramatic

04ZagFan
12-10-2011, 06:46 PM
little dramatic

And 100% accurate.

jazzdelmar
12-10-2011, 06:48 PM
And 100% accurate.

Sadly so.

btzag
12-10-2011, 06:50 PM
Haha 04 you are so predictable!

Hart is playing because he is better than the other current options.

Anyone on this board who advocates playing Carter more as a FIX for a problem should be banned from the board for a week. Carter is a PROBLEM not a FIX.

Lots of young guards who are trying and help move the program forward...and they will in time. Sacre barely saw the court him freshman year, Ammo came off the bench and I personally watched in fear as a young Stepp tried to advance the ball up the court under pressure. Pangos and Bell will be just fine and are not the problem.

Here is to hoping Guy makes a MAJOR impact.

thespywhozaggedme
12-10-2011, 06:55 PM
Uh......no. Hart was playing because Few rewarded him for his hustle and great motor, but apparently even Few realized that Hart kills the team offensively because we're just not good enough to filed a 4 on 5 team offensively and his defensive was non existent as Green was destroying him, so thankfully he pulled him 10 minutes ago. Hopefully tonight was the end to the Mike Hart experiment. He should get 6-8, 10 max mpg, if Q can lose his starting job, then so should Hart. Right now, I might try this lineup:

PG: Pangos
SG: Bell
SF: Elias
PF: Dower
C: Rob


Haha 04 you are so predictable!

Hart is playing because he is better than the other current options.

Anyone on this board who advocates playing Carter more as a FIX for a problem should be banned from the board for a week. Carter is a PROBLEM not a FIX.

Lots of young guards who are trying and help move the program forward...and they will in time. Sacre barely saw the court him freshman year, Ammo came off the bench and I personally watched in fear as a young Stepp tried to advance the ball up the court under pressure. Pangos and Bell will be just fine and are not the problem.

Here is to hoping Guy makes a MAJOR impact.

04ZagFan
12-10-2011, 06:56 PM
LOL at anyone who's lineup includes Pangos over Stockton, and Elias playing SF.

LOL

thespywhozaggedme
12-10-2011, 07:02 PM
LOL at anyone who's lineup includes Pangos over Stockton, and Elias playing SF.

LOL

LOL at someone who uses LOL at anyone that has an opinion that differs from their own. LOL

tlark420
12-10-2011, 07:05 PM
Uh......no. Hart was playing because Few rewarded him for his hustle and great motor, but apparently even Few realized that Hart kills the team offensively because we're just not good enough to filed a 4 on 5 team offensively and his defensive was non existent as Green was destroying him, so thankfully he pulled him 10 minutes ago. Hopefully tonight was the end to the Mike Hart experiment. He should get 6-8, 10 max mpg, if Q can lose his starting job, then so should Hart. Right now, I might try this lineup:

PG: Pangos
SG: Bell
SF: Elias
PF: Dower
C: Rob

+1

kingzag
12-10-2011, 07:20 PM
Id kill for a pangos, bell, carter, Elias, rob lineup
Carter???? Are you drunk?

GeorgiaZagFan
12-10-2011, 07:25 PM
It's literally 4 on 5 for the opposing team whenever he's in, and yeah, he's scrappy, but Draymond Green has been abusing him thus far. I just don't get why he starts and gets so many minutes. :confused:

Any more than 10 minutes a game for Hart and the Zags are at a disadvantage. Like the commentators said at one point...the ball CAN'T go into the low post on the same side as Hart because his defender LEAVES him and doubles the low post. How easy is that to defend.

GeorgiaZagFan
12-10-2011, 07:28 PM
+1
I'd start giving Spangler a LOT of minutes in hopes that he will develop by season's end. Right now Dower is just not getting it done....he seems slow and so one-sided that it is easy for teams to defend him....Dower's BEST low post move right now is a 15 foot jumper!! :)

ZagFan57
12-10-2011, 07:30 PM
Why are fans bagging on Carter now? The kid only played maybe 7 minutes. He wouldn't have been guarding Green anyway. He made solid contributions to the team last year too. I know that was then and this is now, but can't the fans be more supportive of these players. A lot of negativity. Is that what being a fan here is all about?

RockandRollJames
12-10-2011, 07:32 PM
Guy Landry Edi

webspinnre
12-10-2011, 07:35 PM
LOL at anyone who's lineup includes Pangos over Stockton, and Elias playing SF.

LOL

LOL at being added to my ignore list.

gu03alum
12-10-2011, 07:35 PM
You have a better game plan? Of course you don't!!!

Hart Played a great game on defense. You would fail as a team mate or a coach. Hush!

What is it that you saw him do on defense that was great. Greens numbers were 11/13 shooting so I don't think they back you up.

Bulldog
12-10-2011, 07:35 PM
Stockton plays to win. Not sure what the rest are doing.

webspinnre
12-10-2011, 07:40 PM
What is it that you saw him do on defense that was great.


He got 7 boards? Unfortunately, that's all I got, as the rest of the criticism is spot on here.

Baseline
12-10-2011, 07:57 PM
No one was at fault tonight, I think its better said that they all failed.
Every person and position have issues, I hope Few can start figuring out what will work. Changes are needed, but I'm not smart enough to figure it out.

04ZagFan
12-10-2011, 08:00 PM
Great thread. Mike Hart killed Gonzaga tonight. Green knew he was being guarded by a walkon, and he was going to make sure that he completely destroyed a walkon. I will say one thing. Hart did not cost us the game. He was on the bench the last ten minutes. the refs had a lot to do with this one. Green plays with 3 fouls on him almost the whole second half. And did you see the calls in the last minute or two after Gonzaga stole the ball twice.

The reason why Hart had to guard Green so much, is because Elias is a completely incapable defender. That's a tough, tough, tough matchup for Hart. He did the best he could... Wasn't fair to him.

Our D didn't cost us this game. Our offense did.

GonzagaLove
12-10-2011, 08:04 PM
Stockton plays to win. Not sure what the rest are doing.

I agree. Harris cannot score the basketball and was torched by Green as many, if not more, times than Mike Hart. He is killing us.

WallaWallaZag
12-10-2011, 08:12 PM
The reason why Hart had to guard Green so much, is because Elias is a completely incapable defender. That's a tough, tough, tough matchup for Hart. He did the best he could... Wasn't fair to him.

Our D didn't cost us this game. Our offense did.

agree completely...green has probably a couple inches and 20-30 pounds on hart and is a post player and is what we dream harris could be. not a fair matchup for hart...harris needs to dominate on offense to make up for his lack of defense.

WallaWallaZag
12-10-2011, 08:14 PM
The reason why Hart had to guard Green so much, is because Elias is a completely incapable defender. That's a tough, tough, tough matchup for Hart. He did the best he could... Wasn't fair to him.

Our D didn't cost us this game. Our offense did.

agree with first half of your post...not second. when the other team shoots 54.2% your defense is a major reason you lost...plus the turnovers. we didn't play great offense, but good enough to win against a defensive-minded team like msu.

04ZagFan
12-10-2011, 08:16 PM
agree completely...green has probably a couple inches and 20-30 pounds on hart and is a post player and is what we dream harris could be. not a fair matchup for hart...harris needs to dominate on offense to make up for his lack of defense.

Yup. Hart was basically thrown under the bus because we don't have anyone capable of guarding Green..


agree with first half of your post...not second. when the other team shoots 54.2% your defense is a major reason you lost...plus the turnovers. we didn't play great offense, but good enough to win against a defensive-minded team like msu.

Our defense wasn't good, and Green murdered us, but we still would have won the game with better offense..

ZagHouse
12-10-2011, 08:26 PM
Even one of the announcers commented that Hart can't be on the same side as Sacre when he gets the ball in the low block, because Hart's defender knows he can sag off and help. No matter what practice looks like, you can't tell me that Hart is so much better than Keita and Monninghoff that you'd sacrifice the potential of another offensive threat on the floor. Why not make the other team cover our shooters as well? One more on the floor would be nice.

WallaWallaZag
12-10-2011, 08:27 PM
Yup. Hart was basically thrown under the bus because we don't have anyone capable of guarding Green..

Our defense wasn't good, and Green murdered us, but we still would have won the game with better offense..

if by better offense you mean fewer turnovers, then yes...but we shot well enough despite the 2-11 from harris.

04ZagFan
12-10-2011, 08:28 PM
if by better offense you mean fewer turnovers, then yes...but we shot well enough despite the 2-11 from harris.

That's 100% what I mean.

Turnovers killed us. Lots of them were caused by forcing the ball into the paint, or if we got it there, our bigs were forcing crap while double or triple teamed.. Unacceptable.

ZagHouse
12-10-2011, 08:34 PM
It's easy to double and triple team our bigs when one player is not a threat to score. We had the same problem last year, but it came from our point, not a wing.

thespywhozaggedme
12-10-2011, 08:51 PM
You have a better game plan? Of course you don't!!!

Hart Played a great game on defense. You would fail as a team mate or a coach. Hush!

Green font? Sarcasm? Did you watch the game? Draymond Green was destroying Hart, I felt bad for the kid because he was trying his hardest, but he's just not good enough to be playing 20 plus mpg. To repeat: we are not a good enough team to handicap ourselves by playing four on five offensively. Obviously Few saw the same thing, because he pulled him out with about 10 minutes to go.

thespywhozaggedme
12-10-2011, 08:52 PM
The reason why Hart had to guard Green so much, is because Elias is a completely incapable defender. That's a tough, tough, tough matchup for Hart. He did the best he could... Wasn't fair to him.

Our D didn't cost us this game. Our offense did.


That's the exact reason Mike Hart can not play 20+ mpg.

04ZagFan
12-10-2011, 08:53 PM
I'm not saying Hart is a perfect option out there, obviously that's not the case...

But I cannot for the LIFE OF ME, understand how someone can watch the Zags play, and come out of it putting a lot of the blame on Hart..... So many players played terribly, and we blame the kid that makes the fewest mistakes..

He may not contribute a lot, but with the amount of mistakes this club makes, I think one of the most important contributions one can make is to limit mistakes.

thespywhozaggedme
12-10-2011, 08:55 PM
I'm not saying Hart is a perfect option out there, obviously that's not the case...

But I cannot for the LIFE OF ME, understand how someone can watch the Zags play, and come out of it putting a lot of the blame on Hart..... So many players played terribly, and we blame the kid that makes the fewest mistakes..

He may not contribute a lot, but with the amount of mistakes this club makes, I think one of the most important contributions one can make is to limit mistakes.

Honest question: Did you watch tonights game?

04ZagFan
12-10-2011, 08:57 PM
Honest question: Did you watch tonights game?

Of course I did.....

And you think Hart was the reason the team played so terribly? Really?

thespywhozaggedme
12-10-2011, 09:03 PM
Of course I did.....

And you think Hart was the reason the team played so terribly? Really?

Not the only reason, but a major one, yes, and the announcers alluded to as much, and obviously Few realized the same thing because he pulled him with a little over 10 minutes left with the exception of offense/defense subs when MSU was shooting ft's. He was so over matched tonight by Green that I felt bad for him. Hart is a major liability on offense, there have been at least three time this year where he grabbed an uncontested offensive rebound and instead of going right back up, he kicks it out. I love the guys heart and hustle; every team should have a Mike Hart, and he could even start for some teams, but not us, we're just not good enough to afford it.

04ZagFan
12-10-2011, 09:08 PM
Not the only reason, but a major one, yes, and the announcers alluded to as much, and obviously Few realized the same thing because he pulled him with a little over 10 minutes left with the exception of offense/defense subs when MSU was shooting ft's. He was so over matched tonight by Green that I felt bad for him. Hart is a major liability on offense, there have been at least three time this year where he grabbed an uncontested offensive rebound and instead of going right back up, he kicks it out. I love the guys heart and hustle; every team should have a Mike Hart, and he could even start for some teams, but not us, we're just not good enough to afford it.

I'm just not sure what the better option is, though. Hart did some good things tonight, and had no chance against Green.. Nobody on our roster could handle him.

I just look at all of the turnovers and stupid mistakes as the reason why we lost, not Mike Hart.

john montana
12-10-2011, 09:20 PM
No one "cost" us the game, but the decision to leave hart guarding green for 30 minutes in single coverage with no help is insane. He got torched, and we basically had to have a perfect offense for those 30 minutes because msu did whatever they wanted off of that massive mismatch. Just a crazy strategy...how in the world do we decide we can play green one on one with hart? Green tears up everyone...

Insane.

TheCroatian
12-10-2011, 09:23 PM
No one "cost" us the game, but the decision to leave hart guarding green for 30 minutes in single coverage with no help is insane. He got torched, and we basically had to have a perfect offense for those 30 minutes because msu did whatever they wanted off of that massive mismatch. Just a crazy strategy...how in the world do we decide we can play green one on one with hart? Green tears up everyone...

Insane.

a worthy discussion would be about why we do not seem to make meaningful in-game adjustments. Im not sure if the staff won't do it or we can't identify the need.

WallaWallaZag
12-10-2011, 09:27 PM
I'm just not sure what the better option is, though. Hart did some good things tonight, and had no chance against Green.. Nobody on our roster could handle him.

I just look at all of the turnovers and stupid mistakes as the reason why we lost, not Mike Hart.

we need landry-edi to be what we all hope...or for carter to play like last february carter if we have any chance to realize our potential. hart is what he is...we're just not good enough at the other positions to make up for his lack of offense. there are a lot of top teams that have players as offensively inept as hart but are able to overcome it...obviously we aren't one of them against quality opponents...not yet anyways.

04ZagFan
12-10-2011, 10:09 PM
we need landry-edi to be what we all hope...or for carter to play like last february carter if we have any chance to realize our potential. hart is what he is...we're just not good enough at the other positions to make up for his lack of offense. there are a lot of top teams that have players as offensively inept as hart but are able to overcome it...obviously we aren't one of them against quality opponents...not yet anyways.

Yup... PLEASE, God PLEASE.

ZagLawGrad
12-10-2011, 10:18 PM
This team isn't very good right now. Silly to blame Hart for its woes.

Landry? I don't buy into the "check is in the mail" stories---we've had the hype before about new players to the program. He'll have to earn it before I start believing he will make a significant difference, and it's going to take more than a couple of good games from him to prove it.

2wiceright
12-10-2011, 10:56 PM
No one "cost" us the game, but the decision to leave hart guarding green for 30 minutes in single coverage with no help is insane. He got torched, and we basically had to have a perfect offense for those 30 minutes because msu did whatever they wanted off of that massive mismatch. Just a crazy strategy...how in the world do we decide we can play green one on one with hart? Green tears up everyone...

Insane.

Bingo. Regardless of who was covvering green I would have thought our coaches would have made some sort of adjustments somewhere throughout the game- he was their only player in double figures!! He scored 34 points, thats more than our team scored combined (we ended with 67). Why no double team or box-and-one?

The press and even coach Few mentioned this was the best rebounding team in the country (bar none). Check the box score- we outrebounded them 27-20!It seems to be all they worked on. MSU doubled our assists 18 vs. 9. The only category we beat them in (aside from rebounding) was turnovers.

I'm astounded as to why Dower, Harris, and Carter seemed to have disappeared from the offensive side of the court (some would say defensive too). I love all three of these guys but don't get why they aren't stepping up (with the exception of Harris to a degree, but non-existant in the most important game to date). David did keep us in the game, especially late when they could have turned it into a route! All it would have taken is one, two or three of our veterans to play like their "old" selves for a game and we could have won this game without defense on Green. Stockton, Bell, and Pangos are doing an above average job (especially the two true freshman) and will one day be stars like past GU guards. I wish the upper classmen (Rob and Hart excluded) would bring to bear their full arsenal of weapons. I'm not a doom and gloomer or Koolaider, but if Laundry isn't half of what we expect and/or Dower and Carter (and sometimes Harris) keep playing like this our dynasty might be more ripe for the taking than last year.

I still have faith we'll find a way- we always do....

VinnyZag
12-10-2011, 11:02 PM
Hart guarding Green was a bad idea. It's almost like Few and staff were surprised that Green was so big and strong. Hart's a really good defender, a legit defender for a good D-I team, but he had absolutely no chance against Green. And once Green got some confidence, the game was basically over.

Also, I think we can put the Harris at the 3 dream to rest now. He can't defend any perimeter players and he can't score from the wing. He's a power forward. That's all he's gonna be, it appears, because he hasn't improved in his 2+ years at Gonzaga.

GUnawinit
12-10-2011, 11:22 PM
HEART and DESIRE...end of report

exiledhusky
12-10-2011, 11:36 PM
Agreed, it seems the program has hit a wall in terms of talent level. Depending on which side of the argument one is on, it's a problem or not a problem. A major brand name and prerennial top 25 program in a mid major conferance. Good enough for some, complacent to others. As a displaced UCONN fan, I'd say to you, be carefull what you wish for. Not that winning NC's are a bad thing, there's something to be said for the excitement of it all. To become a perennial top 10 team, for every Sacre you develope, you need a Morrison and Daye talent along side him. Morrison was a Xmas gift and Daye was soft, both were ideal situations for Gonzaga. For any program to recruit that level of talent in a normal situation, coaches need to look the other way as in Calipari's case or be smart enough to let your recruiting program close the deal as in Calhoun's case. Do you really want that from Few? You can't have it both ways.

bartruff1
12-11-2011, 05:18 AM
I mean it is not like you are asking a question because you don't know something or that you actually want a answer...

exiledhusky
12-11-2011, 08:17 AM
I mean it is not like you are asking a question because you don't know something or that you actually want a answer...

It's a question for the Gonzaga fan base. Do they want to trade the vanilla culture of the program for the sleeze of recruiting at the elite level?

bartruff1
12-11-2011, 08:26 AM
But to answer your question, I would rather be 15 and 15 with players like Hart and Pendo than win a NC with players that call themselves " gangsters " ......and I don't really know what they mean by the term... I like things the way they are...

Hoopaholic
12-11-2011, 08:57 AM
many of greens points came off of poor guard defensive positioning and rotational issues...rarely did Green score off straight one on one basketball play thus to place the ENITRE blame on one player is in my opinion not an accurate assessment of last nights game.....many times our help side/rotational players were not aligned, had not moved into position or was late in the rotation providing Green nice open opportunities.

The issue is defense, defensive rotation and help side work and many of our guards and harris are routinely out of position or slow in recognition for rotation....our guards are also gambling WAY to much creating lanes of opportunity which is stressing the team defensive cohesion

We scored enough to win, just as in Illinois....it is offense that we need to focus on (assists are poor and turnovers are high)...typical growing issues of a young guard situation we are facing

TheGonzagaFactor
12-11-2011, 09:16 AM
This is embarrassing. We lose to a team that might win the Big 10 and all of a sudden it's indicative of how bad the program is and how we suck.

MSU is an amazing defensive team and an even better rebounding team. We have a young frontcourt that did great considering they haven't even played 10 games yet. I remember us thrashing Texas a few years ago in December (led by 28 late in the game)... what happened in the tourney? Texas: Elite Eight... Gonzaga: 1st Round.

All we can do now is hope to improve as a team, I'm not worried about two close losses to good Big Ten schools. Pangos and Bell need to establish some confidence on the perimeter and we will be lighting up the scoreboard. Not to mention Landry is about to make his debut and he is obviously better in every facet of the game than Hart. I can't wait to play 5v5 on offense!

bartruff1
12-11-2011, 09:31 AM
I think the reason he is infatuated with Hart is that, at least as compared to Big Foot, Hart is much more appealing...

allbusiness_zag
12-11-2011, 10:01 AM
This thread makes me sick. Hart isn't the reason we lost, folks. Sorry to break it to you. He played 18 minutes. So everyone alluding to Green's 11 of 13 shooting...HE WASN'T GUARDING HIM THE WHOLE GAME. Green ran over everyone on our team, but hey, we need to blame someone.

Scapegoat: a person or group made to bear the blame for others or to suffer in their place. :vomit-smiley-007:

04ZagFan
12-11-2011, 10:19 AM
I personally believe the program has hit a plateau. Of course that makes me a bad fan and an idiot, and all of that nonsense, but to be honest, since 1998, I've seen the actual product on the floor (albeit a brand new floor in a brand new arena) get worse.

kclubfounder
12-11-2011, 10:26 AM
To answer the original question, I believe Few's infatuation with Hart is obvious. The guy makes plays. I'll take a guy who fights, scraps, gets loose balls, takes charges, grabs offensive rebounds, and plays as hard as a person can play over an "offensive" player who doesn't do the things Hart does. And I'm not surprised Few will also take that guy.

I'm so tempted to get personal and attach unflattering adjectives to the posters that rag on Hart, but I'll refrain.

04ZagFan
12-11-2011, 10:28 AM
To answer the original question, I believe Few's infatuation with Hart is obvious. The guy makes plays. I'll take a guy who fights, scraps, gets loose balls, takes charges, grabs offensive rebounds, and plays as hard as a person can play over an "offensive" player who doesn't do the things Hart does. And I'm not surprised Few will also take that guy.

I'm so tempted to get personal and attach unflattering adjectives to the posters that rag on Hart, but I'll refrain.

Agree....

And the thing is, if you insert Kieta or Monninghoff, there would be no improvement on offense, and a drastic step in the wrong direction on defense.

It's like people don't remember either player, or something... We've played that game, it didn't work as smoothly as the Hart haters want to think it would.

kclubfounder
12-11-2011, 10:32 AM
I personally believe the program has hit a plateau. Of course that makes me a bad fan and an idiot, and all of that nonsense, but to be honest, since 1998, I've seen the actual product on the floor (albeit a brand new floor in a brand new arena) get worse.

04, Your posts have improved dramatically in my humble opinion. But I've got to call you out on this new theme of yours. Stating over and over again that the "program has plateaued" doesn't make you a bad fan. It makes you look silly. We have just started watching what many believe to be our best recruiting class in history. The Gonzaga brand gets stronger and stronger year after year. Do yourself a favor, drop it.

Saxon_zag
12-11-2011, 10:32 AM
Agree....

And the thing is, if you insert Kieta or Monninghoff, there would be no improvement on offense, and a drastic step in the wrong direction on defense.

It's like people don't remember either player, or something... We've played that game, it didn't work as smoothly as the Hart haters want to think it would.



Hart = Keita or MM offensively? You must be new here....


How quickly people forget about how many much keita helped us in a game like @Wake last year. NEver seen Hart put in that kind of contribution on offense. Hart has the offensive skills of a solid 3rd option on a high school team, MM and Keita are division 1 scholarship athletes. Few's infatuation is inexplainable really, and hurting the team.

04ZagFan
12-11-2011, 10:35 AM
04, Your posts have improved dramatically in my humble opinion. But I've got to call you out on this new theme of yours. Stating over and over again that the "program has plateaued" doesn't make you a bad fan. It makes you look silly. We have just started watching what many believe to be our best recruiting class in history. The Gonzaga brand gets stronger and stronger year after year. Do yourself a favor, drop it.

I hope I am wrong, but I'm just stating my feelings... I remember watching those early teams, and how flawlessly we played against the good teams.. Richie, Matt, Q... Then Blake, Dan, Morrison, Bautista...

I love this program as much as anyone here, and I love what I've seen from Gary, David, and Pangos early, but I'm concerned.

In my opinion, the program was better in the early days.

Saxon_zag
12-11-2011, 10:39 AM
04, Your posts have improved dramatically in my humble opinion. But I've got to call you out on this new theme of yours. Stating over and over again that the "program has plateaued" doesn't make you a bad fan. It makes you look silly. We have just started watching what many believe to be our best recruiting class in history. The Gonzaga brand gets stronger and stronger year after year. Do yourself a favor, drop it.


He's the new jazz, but worse. 7 games into the season and it's already the doom and gloom and this guys KNOWS the program has "plateaued". :rolleyes:

Ezag
12-11-2011, 10:42 AM
I'll take a few more Mike Hart's & David Stocton's on this team.

thespywhozaggedme
12-11-2011, 10:52 AM
I'll take a few more Mike Hart's & David Stocton's on this team.

I'll take a few more Bea Arthurs and Scarlett Johansens; I mean, they're both females (I think), so they must be alike, right?

bartruff1
12-11-2011, 11:09 AM
I hope I am wrong, but I'm just stating my feelings... I remember watching those early teams, and how flawlessly we played against the good teams.. Richie, Matt, Q... Then Blake, Dan, Morrison, Bautista...

I love this program as much as anyone here, and I love what I've seen from Gary, David, and Pangos early, but I'm concerned.

In my opinion, the program was better in the early days. If you mean the early days of 3 years ago, I would agree. IMHO the team 3 years ago was the best (or one of the best)....and that Few has done wonders coaching since then. We have yet to replace the quality of those 7 players as a group (Bouldin, Pargo, Downs, Josh, Austin, Gray and yes...Meech)....I am not of the opinion that this is the best class in years, maybe two years. We are still down and the record shows that. I think, we will need several more players to get back to that level.....of course, that is just my opinion and I am just a fan..

jim77
12-11-2011, 12:11 PM
Honestly, we could have won with Green's points had we not coughed the ball up....and there was no way ANYBODY was gonna shut Green down...which is why I would have ZONED them for 40 minutes. I actually wish Hart would shoot more.

zag buddy
12-11-2011, 01:31 PM
stopping Green, Harris hasn't a clue, Mike Heart is not big enough, The only one on Gonzagas team who is big enogh and good enough defensively to stop him sat 40 minutes on the bench. Ryan Spangler would have slowed him way down and if he fouls out, so what. Some times I do not understand these coaches.

cjm720
12-12-2011, 12:19 PM
It's literally 4 on 5 for the opposing team whenever he's in, and yeah, he's scrappy, but Draymond Green has been abusing him thus far. I just don't get why he starts and gets so many minutes. :confused:

He kept us in the game against MSU in the first half; when he sat with foul trouble they went on a run.

It's kind of sad to think in a way (and cool in another) but two RS walk-ons, in Hart and Stockton, were are most influential players.

What Hart lacks in offense, he more than makes up for in offensive rebounds, lose balls, etc.

gamagin
12-12-2011, 12:46 PM
that 4 vs. 5 line was the one patented vs. meech last year. It doesn't fly. it's crap.

I'm beginning to think some posters are watching these games from the wrong end of their binoculars. A growing number can't seem to get over the fact he's a walk on. How about a walk over ? Or walk through ? He walked over and through everyone sitting behind him to get p.t. and he has represented.

He and Stocks & GB are turning in ever more valuable minutes game to game. So far. While the summer league preemptively selected stars, plus too many vets, are still adjusting their jock straps and waiting for some sort of inspiration that hasn't yet arrived.

So look around. Please. You are missing a fairly good team developing right before your eyes.

75Zag
12-12-2011, 01:01 PM
In many contexts, skills that you don't have to pay for are valued above those that you do have to pay for. Apparently not in GU basketball.

I am of course referring to volunteer work at my church.

Go Bulldogs! Get Bigger!

Zag79
12-13-2011, 12:54 AM
I hope I am wrong, but I'm just stating my feelings... I remember watching those early teams, and how flawlessly we played against the good teams.. Richie, Matt, Q... Then Blake, Dan, Morrison, Bautista...

I love this program as much as anyone here, and I love what I've seen from Gary, David, and Pangos early, but I'm concerned.

In my opinion, the program was better in the early days.

I can name a game from every year since 1998 that we dumped a game worse than one we have this year. Seems to me we are getting better recruits than ever, and continue to do what we are known for. Getting to march and making noise. I love it, and would bet it continues into get better.

mgadfly
12-13-2011, 09:12 AM
that 4 vs. 5 line was the one patented vs. meech last year. It doesn't fly. it's crap.


I think it infringed on the Will Foster patent.

Bogozags
12-13-2011, 04:11 PM
that 4 vs. 5 line was the one patented vs. meech last year. It doesn't fly. it's crap.

I'm beginning to think some posters are watching these games from the wrong end of their binoculars. A growing number can't seem to get over the fact he's a walk on. How about a walk over ? Or walk through ? He walked over and through everyone sitting behind him to get p.t. and he has represented.

He and Stocks & GB are turning in ever more valuable minutes game to game. So far. While the summer league preemptively selected stars, plus too many vets, are still adjusting their jock straps and waiting for some sort of inspiration that hasn't yet arrived.

So look around. Please. You are missing a fairly good team developing right before your eyes.

Very good post...I hate the TO's that accompany the youth on this team but it is part of the package...if we were not young, then we should truly be concerned...as Al McGuire use to mention during the tournament..."...at the end of the season, they are no longer freshman..."

zagfan1970
12-13-2011, 04:29 PM
Uh......no. Hart was playing because Few rewarded him for his hustle and great motor, but apparently even Few realized that Hart kills the team offensively because we're just not good enough to filed a 4 on 5 team offensively and his defensive was non existent as Green was destroying him, so thankfully he pulled him 10 minutes ago. Hopefully tonight was the end to the Mike Hart experiment. He should get 6-8, 10 max mpg, if Q can lose his starting job, then so should Hart. Right now, I might try this lineup:

PG: Pangos
SG: Bell
SF: Elias
PF: Dower
C: Rob

agree!!! Love that line-up!!!, been begging for those 3 to be on the floor together-RS<EH<SD. Bring Stockton and Hart in for a change of pace or energy when needed. MM, KS should both be getting some of Hart's minutes as well.

And YES, GUY from what I saw at the scrimmage and the Carrol game will be a 10-12 pt bonus- 6-8 more pts a game than Hart and 2-4 pts less from the person he guards.

awberke
12-13-2011, 05:36 PM
agree!!! Love that line-up!!!, been begging for those 3 to be on the floor together-RS<EH<SD. Bring Stockton and Hart in for a change of pace or energy when needed. MM, KS should both be getting some of Hart's minutes as well.

And YES, GUY from what I saw at the scrimmage and the Carrol game will be a 10-12 pt bonus- 6-8 more pts a game than Hart and 2-4 pts less from the person he guards.

If you can give me as many reasons why E should play the three as i'm about to give you why he shouldn't, i'll believe you.

1. His three point shooting is poor enough, and he's wide open
2. His dribbling is sub-par from 15 feet in, much less 22
3. He's not a great passer
4. He's our best rebounder
5. He CANNOT defend a 3 point shot

MDABE80
12-13-2011, 05:47 PM
ALL are kids look fine...biggest hustler on the team is Hart. Not sure why he chokes when he shoots but I've seen him shoot the lights out. We need him. Edi..he'll be fine when he gets his legs under him. Major athlete too but for my money, I like Hart's hustle. He prevents teams from scoring. I like that.

Not sure why Green wasn't defended better. Wide body with long arms...but he's not exactly a "Jimmer" with freak shots that go in.

FuManShoes
12-19-2011, 08:11 AM
... rewatch Saturday's game vs Arizona. That is why Mark Few loves Mike Hart.

zagzilla
12-19-2011, 08:17 AM
... rewatch Saturday's game vs Arizona. That is why Mark Few loves Mike Hart.

Word.

About 12 minutes of Hart per game is perfect.

ZZ

Therunner
12-19-2011, 08:23 AM
... rewatch Saturday's game vs Arizona. That is why Mark Few loves Mike Hart.

+1

mostly watch on offense and defense in the paint. His offensive rebounding and nose for the ball was awesome. He pushed, pried, clawed, and fought his way on defense in the paint.

However, he was really the only guy was burned at least 3-4 times along the perimeter -- their penetration occurred when they swung the ball to the weak side when Hart extended his defense. They blew right past him.

That said, every one of our players have 'areas of improvement' and Mike Hart's is 3pt defense(has 3 fouls vs 3pt shooters this season & nearly was called for another vs 'Zona) and on-ball defense on the perimeter as well. His dribbling is non-existent or spotty, yet he brings toughness, fight, offensive rebounding, put-backs, smart transition play, and the ability to draw a charge. Not to mention some solid strength on the wing.

I guess I meant to say, if you're going to use the Arizona game as an example, be sure to tell people to watch his play on offense and skip the defense vs Wildcats.

abeanzag
12-19-2011, 09:15 AM
I have been a skeptic of Hart for a long time. But watching him live on Saturday, was fun and eye opening for me. His intangibles are invaluable. He is the perfect role player. I loved the Stockton/Hart offensive/defensive switches the last couple minutes of the game.

kramzag
12-19-2011, 09:45 AM
... rewatch Saturday's game vs Arizona. That is why Mark Few loves Mike Hart.

+1

Mike had 6 O-boards. Arizona had 7. That's worth another 6 points. Give him playing time right there.

Section 116
12-19-2011, 02:23 PM
As I posted in another thread (Post game radio show) Coach Daniels said Mike Hart was sensational on Saturday vs. Arizona!

04ZagFan
12-19-2011, 02:51 PM
Mike was awesome Saturday.. He's been awesome most of the year.

Amazing that we were able to beat a team like Arizona so easily playing 4 on 5 for 30 minutes..

6 points, 2 blocks, 6 boards. Mind blowing to me that people still don't see his value.

DixieZag
12-19-2011, 03:05 PM
Maybe this topic can go away now.

Against ORU Hart nailed an absolutely clutch 3 pointer that we had to have.

Against Arizona he fought with strength and effort to get 6pts cleaning up the rim, 6 boards, 2 blocks.

Against the rest of our opponents he will share time with GLE, they have different strengths and each will be used in specific situations when their particular skill set is needed.

RenoZag
12-19-2011, 03:09 PM
Maybe this topic can go away now.



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