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View Full Version : Defensive Toughness Limits Gonzaga's Ceiling



ZagFanatic
12-05-2011, 10:45 AM
According to Jeff Borzello:

http://eye-on-college-basketball.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/view/26283066

This is a good summary of the various defensive threads we've had on this board, backed up by some stats.

HillBillyZag
12-05-2011, 12:03 PM
The truth nhurts. As much as I like all of our guards there is no way I would recruit another guard less than 6'3" . Our kids just don't have the size to match up against three point shoots.

LongIslandZagFan
12-05-2011, 12:12 PM
Thinks its a valid argument. More so on the rebounding side of the equation.

gozagswoohoo
12-05-2011, 02:30 PM
Good article and its from an analyst, so fellow posters can't just ignore it and conclude they're only being 'negative' or making 'personal attacks' on our players.



But I don't think he is saying something most of us don't disagree with. Does this guy say Stocks isn't good enough to be playing for GU? Does he say that Stocks wouldn't play much on a bottom WCC team? No. In fact, the writer says "Gonzaga needs both Pangos and Stockton on the floor". That's not quite the argument that's going on over in 'that one thread'.

MDABE80
12-05-2011, 02:45 PM
I think Pangos and Bell can cover most things. DS is still not quite there on D. He'll find a way but he can't grow 3 more inches unless I find him some "grow pills". Just limited in some things.

I'd say Bell, Pangos and Edi?Hart can cover most perimeter schemes.
More concerned about Sam's D though...he's just not into it. Rob and Elias are...they've caught fire. We do need another big who plays D though.

zag944
12-05-2011, 02:54 PM
Our zone defense, particularly when it comes to guarding the three, has been a problem much longer than any player on this team has been around.

While I dont blame any specific player for the negatives, I will say that GBJ is an obvious positive and the only player that consistently makes things better with regards to this problem. This, combined with being a decent scorer, means that he should have PT like Sacre and Harris (only limited by fatigue or foul trouble). He should be starting and playing as many minutes as practicible no matter which player it means cutting minutes from.

Baldwinzag
12-05-2011, 03:42 PM
But I don't think he is saying something most of us don't disagree with. Does this guy say Stocks isn't good enough to be playing for GU? Does he say that Stocks wouldn't play much on a bottom WCC team? No. In fact, the writer says "Gonzaga needs both Pangos and Stockton on the floor". That's not quite the argument that's going on over in 'that one thread'.

I want to apologize for being so blunt, borderline harsh today. I've been riding a couple of players/topics and while I certainly hope for improvement, its been a bit over-the-top in some of my posts today.

It was a hectic Monday and took out some frustrations in certain areas I probably should have been more rational about.

:o

bballbeachbum
12-05-2011, 03:50 PM
why does GU have to play only either a flat 2-3 zone or M2M if/when those 2 are on the floor together?

04ZagFan
12-05-2011, 04:34 PM
I also feel like our offense has declined somewhat over the last few years.... And I believe it's because we aren't shooting as many threes. I'm tellin ya, to win games against superior opponents (or on the road, like against Illinois) the game is usually decided from the 3 point line. We NEED to shoot more.

zagzilla
12-05-2011, 05:26 PM
There have been flashes of good D this year most notably vs ND but programs develop a style and they tend to play to that stereotype. For instance Wisconsin is a comparably successful program who is stingy on D and challenged offensively most of the time.

Zags are soft on D until proven otherwise. Author's meta point is correct, IMO

BTW-Love the advanced stats author uses

ZZ

Zags11
12-05-2011, 06:08 PM
But I don't think he is saying something most of us don't disagree with. Does this guy say Stocks isn't good enough to be playing for GU? Does he say that Stocks wouldn't play much on a bottom WCC team? No. In fact, the writer says "Gonzaga needs both Pangos and Stockton on the floor". That's not quite the argument that's going on over in 'that one thread'.

"Pangos and Stockton provide a different dimension offensively, and they need the two on the floor Ė but they both have limited lateral quickness. The two simply canít be on the court at the same time; itís too much of a liability on the defensive end."

That is what the whole article said lol, so hence people saying that stockton should be the backup seeming we all agree pangos is better. That statement is saying the 2 guards are too small and too slow, and I believe pangos should be the starter.

bartruff1
12-05-2011, 06:09 PM
But I don't think he is saying something most of us don't disagree with. Does this guy say Stocks isn't good enough to be playing for GU? Does he say that Stocks wouldn't play much on a bottom WCC team? No. In fact, the writer says "Gonzaga needs both Pangos and Stockton on the floor". That's not quite the argument that's going on over in 'that one thread'.

"I don't think...don't disagree..." what is that ? A triple nagative ?

allnet59
12-05-2011, 06:29 PM
Same old story on the three point defense. What has always bothered me about our defense is that no one puts a body on anyone when rebounding. That's the first thing u learn when playing ball as a young player. Imo the zags do a lousy job blocking out and seem to just watch and wait for the ball to fall into their hands. We have been out rebounded and out hustled on both ends of the court many occasions by smaller teams that us the skills taught at a very young age.

siliconzag
12-05-2011, 08:48 PM
I also feel like our offense has declined somewhat over the last few years.... And I believe it's because we aren't shooting as many threes. I'm tellin ya, to win games against superior opponents (or on the road, like against Illinois) the game is usually decided from the 3 point line. We NEED to shoot more.

Amen to that. If you can't cover the Perimeter, maybe you can make more threes than your opponent!

gozagswoohoo
12-05-2011, 10:14 PM
"I don't think...don't disagree..." what is that ? A triple nagative ?

My apologies, I typed that on my iPhone, quickly, and didn't double check it. That does sound a bit confusing.


What I MEANT to say, is that I think most everyone here would agree with what the writer is saying.

Birddog
12-06-2011, 02:41 AM
My apologies, I typed that on my iPhone, quickly, and didn't double check it. That does sound a bit confusing
Wow, how'd you do that with your phone? Next thing you know the damn things will be able to take pictures!

GeorgiaZagFan
12-06-2011, 03:40 AM
I think Pangos and Bell can cover most things. DS is still not quite there on D. He'll find a way but he can't grow 3 more inches unless I find him some "grow pills". Just limited in some things.

I'd say Bell, Pangos and Edi?Hart can cover most perimeter schemes.
More concerned about Sam's D though...he's just not into it. Rob and Elias are...they've caught fire. We do need another big who plays D though.

What I've seen this year I believe the DS has defended better than Pangos ...not to say the Pangos won't be better in the long run but DS has surprised with improved D. That being said I believe they are both less than average at that end of the court to compete against the big boys. But they are still frosh and soph and there is a reason that many "experts" pick the teams with senior guard presence to go far in the tournament. We really need Carter to step his game up a notch so we only have to play Pangos OR Stockton. I like our PG duo ...they are really exciting ...but both on the court at the same time really limits our defensive end.

bartruff1
12-06-2011, 04:07 AM
My apologies, I typed that on my iPhone, quickly, and didn't double check it. That does sound a bit confusing.


What I MEANT to say, is that I think most everyone here would agree with what the writer is saying. Cool...I think I understand now what we all agree or disagree with and I agree...I think ..

ExtremeJim
12-06-2011, 10:38 AM
"I don't think...don't disagree..." what is that ? A triple nagative ?

...of the dreaded "triple nagative"is probably Ben Shockley (Clint Eastwood) to Gus Mally (Sondra Locke) several times in The Gauntlet:

"Nag, nag, nag!"

Once and Future Zag
12-06-2011, 11:44 AM
Small sample size still, but after factoring in quality of competition, we've still got the #46 most efficient defense (http://www.kenpom.com/) in the land (top 15%) - and #20 offense (top 6%)

Given how many minutes are going to underclassmen (overall) I'd say we're in good shape as long as they continue to improve.

A game with lots of learning experiences here or there doesn't really matter until March.