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View Full Version : Bell needs minutes.....



TacomaZAG
11-30-2011, 10:24 PM
Coach has got to find a way for GBJ to get more minutes. He is improving so much every game, has been our best perimeter defender since he got here, and is starting to get the feel for D1 speed. His shot is back and his confidence is growing every game. He may be getting a lot of Carter's minutes unless MC picks it up a lot in the next couple of games.

I like the way GBJ and Pangos play off each other when they are in the game together.

More minutes for GBJ, PLease................

Great win tonight

Go Zags

jazzdelmar
11-30-2011, 10:26 PM
carter had 32 mins, more than either pangos (28) and stocks (26) and nearly twice that of bell (18). makes no sense. few needs to commit now to a 2 man backcourt of kp and gbj. bell and pangos shld get 35 each with carter, hart and stocks splitting 30-35.

ZagLawGrad
11-30-2011, 10:28 PM
I like Bell, but I'm not seeing what you guys are seeing (yet).

CDC84
11-30-2011, 10:29 PM
I expect to see quite a lot of GBJ on Saturday. They are going to need his athleticism and defensive ability on the perimeter against the Illini guards.

This was an ideal game for Stockton/Pangos to play a lot together. Not a whole of perimeter pressure from the Irish tonight.

At some point Carter has got to get it going. Gonzaga will be better for it.

TacomaZAG
11-30-2011, 10:30 PM
+1

jazzdelmar
11-30-2011, 10:33 PM
carter is a senior. why is few investing precious minutes in a player with as many liabilities as assets? for every good play he makes two or three confounding ones.

NEC26
11-30-2011, 10:34 PM
You must only watch the offensive possessions ZLG?

I bet you voted David Stockton POG as well?

Not sure what you mean by that as Stockton played good D tonight.

04ZagFan
11-30-2011, 10:35 PM
David was the player of the game tonight, IMO.. Followed by Elias, who was grabbing every rebound. David was great on D tonight as well.

Bell is very good on D also.

Beer_Engineer
11-30-2011, 10:36 PM
All in due time. He's definitely slowed down some since game one. Its coming to him. You can tell now by the amount of dribbling he does when he touches the ball. In those first two games, it was catch and dribble. He didnt know where he was dribbling to sometimes, but he was off and running. I think its pretty clear though, he's starting to settle down and let it come to him.

All in due time...

ZagLawGrad
11-30-2011, 10:36 PM
You must only watch the offensive possessions ZLG?

I bet you voted David Stockton POG as well?

Guilty on the DS part. Seriously, though, if Bell was everything some are seeing, he'd be out there a lot more. He's coming along fine, but it'll be awhile yet.

NEC26
11-30-2011, 10:41 PM
I think its funny everyone wants the Zags to put em away and not let em back in it. On the other hand we want the guys who are not quite there yet to be playing so they get the experience. I understand that but this game wasn't out of reach till the end and David was a large reason we pulled away both in the first and second halves.
I get why some call for more minutes for Bell as I see the potential too but sometimes you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Edit: By the way Pangos and Stockton has often been our most effective guard duo out there so far this year. Not what I expected but its worked as they are two guys who have an excellent understanding of the game.

hooter73
11-30-2011, 10:46 PM
I think its funny everyone wants the Zags to put em away and not let em back in it. On the other hand we want the guys who are not quite there yet to be playing so they get the experience. I understand that but this game wasn't out of reach till the end and David was a large reason we pulled away both in the first and second halves.
I get why some call for more minutes for Bell as I see the potential too but sometimes you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Edit: By the way Pangos and Stockton has often been our most effective guard duo out there so far this year. Not what I expected but its worked as they are two guys who have an excellent understanding of the game.

you and your black magic logic frustrate me.

sonuvazag
11-30-2011, 10:47 PM
Edit: By the way Pangos and Stockton has often been our most effective guard duo out there so far this year. Not what I expected but its worked as they are two guys who have an excellent understanding of the game.
Has anyone else confused them for each other at times?

MickMick
11-30-2011, 10:48 PM
Bell's defense was very impressive against the Irish. The Zags aren't missing the defense of Gray and Meech nearly as much as I thought they would.

The team as a whole still need to tighten things up a bit on defense. Letting teams sneak back is starting to become an ugly habit. All of their wins should have been by double digits.

Sacre had an off night shooting or GU would have won by 25+.

Stockton must have helped cover some kind of Vegas spread with his last 3 because the gamblers are loving him to death on ESPN message boards.

ZagLawGrad
11-30-2011, 10:49 PM
Has anyone else confused them for each other at times?

Gotta look for jersey numbers at times

04ZagFan
11-30-2011, 10:52 PM
I didn't think we played that great tonight... Yet we still crushed Notre Dame... I dunno if that's a good sign, or a sign we could lose to a decent team, but I guess we'll find out.

Mantua
11-30-2011, 10:57 PM
Has anyone else confused them for each other at times?

Their postures and dribbling differentiate them, but if you're not focused its easy to to confuse them.

CDC84
11-30-2011, 11:05 PM
The whole team's defense was impressive vs. the Irish. Not a lot of shots without a hand in the face.

Baldwinzag
11-30-2011, 11:13 PM
The whole team's defense was impressive vs. the Irish. Not a lot of shots without a hand in the face.

Tremendous TEAM defense.

Malastein
11-30-2011, 11:14 PM
The whole team's defense was impressive vs. the Irish. Not a lot of shots without a hand in the face.

Never looked nearly as sharp when Sacre was on bench. Night and day difference.

NEC26
11-30-2011, 11:17 PM
Never looked nearly as sharp when Sacre was on bench. Night and day difference.

Agreed, it really is a sharp drop off when he leaves the floor.

Baldwinzag
11-30-2011, 11:20 PM
Agreed, it really is a sharp drop off when he leaves the floor.

:mecry: <-- already missing Sacre. :(

Nevtelen
11-30-2011, 11:20 PM
Bell's defense was very impressive against the Irish. The Zags aren't missing the defense of Gray and Meech nearly as much as I thought they would.

The team as a whole still need to tighten things up a bit on defense. Letting teams sneak back is starting to become an ugly habit. All of their wins should have been by double digits.


Not to hijack this thread, but...

Actually I think our offense really needs to improve. The D is fine. It's not elite, but it probably won't be elite this season, honestly. Sure it could be tweaked, but from here on out, I think we just need some defensive tweaks and maybe some individual improvement (Dower and Harris come to mind).

IMO, it's the offense, though, that is what is letting other teams back into games. There isn't really a reliable go-to scorer or even a go-to set or tactic yet. When the going gets tough on offense, the team goes through a dry spell and as the other team scores at an average clip, they come back because the offense is dead in the water and rebounds off of bad shots turn into transition buckets for the opponent. I think that's one reason DS has been so effective - no matter what else you want to say about the kid, he goes for the jugular, either with an inside pass, picking up a 3, or driving and dishing. He gets the team moving in a positive direction when often the best offense has been dump it down to Sacre for a (for him) low-percentage hook and if that doesn't work... uh, figure something else out quick. When (hopefully not if) the team gets themselves sorted out offensively, I think this habit of letting teams back into the game will slowly fade.

awberke
11-30-2011, 11:20 PM
Never looked nearly as sharp when Sacre was on bench. Night and day difference.

+1 Sam Dower needs to be sneakier with his contact.

Baldwinzag
11-30-2011, 11:33 PM
GNJ was perfect tonight & deserved more mins.

of course its up to the Coaches & I'll trust their discretion, yet how can you keep our best defender, disruptor, & 3pt shooter on the bench for 22 of 40 mins?!

I'd like to see Gary avg 30+ a night. LOVE his defense, ability, & even passing lately...

Give the kid more than 18 mins:(.

webspinnre
11-30-2011, 11:34 PM
Due to a variety of circumstances, tonight was the first time I was able to watch a complete game this year, and I've got to say, with our brand new HD, it's really something.

I've got to agree with the thought that I'd like to see Bell getting some minutes at the expense of Carter and Hart. Both Bell and Carter had some errors and sloppiness tonight, but just watching Bell, you can see the potential for the whole package. I don't know that he'll reach it, but there's the potential for him to be like a better version of Pargo. I can't remember being more excited at the potential of Zags team than I am after having watched our backcourt tonight. Yes, they have their flaws, but many of those flaws are from youth/inexperience at this level, and the way they're going to grow out of those is by getting their minutes. I also enjoyed Stockton's game tonight, and I've got to say he's really growing on me. I know some people will get on me for this, but I can't remember a time when we had a better backup point guard who I felt comfortable getting significant minutes. There were times tonight we had Bell, Pangos and Stockton out there, and given our lack of a clear-cut 3, I could see why.

I can't wait until things really start to gel on offense, and hopefully Edi or someone (one of the Mathii? the shooting version of Hart we've heard rumors of?) can step up to provide a bit of offense from the 3 spot as a true 3.

Lastly, while I wasn't thrilled with Sam's fouls, I was impressed seeing Spanglers' size/bulk and his hands really did seem "sticky" at times. We've got some decent depth down low, though obviously a huge dropoff from Sacre/Harris.

MDABE80
11-30-2011, 11:39 PM
Best guard defense I've seenin a while was the first half....Bell was terrific. Pangos is a lot quicker with his feet on defense than I though. He's a very good defender and he works at it.
David..for now...is a bit more "offensively oriented". I think Pa nd B can guard 80% of guards we face...the other guards we fact (that 10%) are at a whole nother level...someone like Aaron Brooks..who nobody can guard.

The bigs tonight..well ELias won the boards but him and Rob still need some help to get defensive stops. Harts...will go head first through a wall to pay defense, steal balls, etc...he's an example of a very strong defender who applies himself and it shows.

We play D much better than at this point last year...no doubt. P and B...two outstanding tough young talents both sides of the ball. Few would be smarter if he'd turn those two loose....even if we come up shot.

DS on the O side is just terrific but an athletic guard gets on him and he'll need all the moxy he has to be effective/ ...He'll figure it out but there will be some physical shortcomings. I sure like him though

john montana
11-30-2011, 11:46 PM
More bell please. I absolutely agree with jazz.

Oregonzagnut
12-01-2011, 12:21 AM
carter is a senior. why is few investing precious minutes in a player with as many liabilities as assets? for every good play he makes two or three confounding ones.

Because he has some Meech in him. One good year under Few and he has to contend with the 2nd year "sophmore slump" learning curve issues but being faster than his knowledge of the system allows him. He is a "sophomore" under Few. Basically, he is trying to do too much before anyone can join him to bail him out of his untimely slashes to the hoop. But he still has a far bette shot than Meech.

I miss Meech and I think he would have still been a great up tempo PG for us, especially when breaking full court press was mandatory.

Efficient uptempo basketball takes a very cohesive team. We are almost there!!!

bostonzagfan
12-01-2011, 06:36 AM
not to get too off topic, but there has to be a better offense than sacre taking a fade away hook shot from more than 3 feet away from the hoop. hopefully bell can contribute to this

bartruff1
12-01-2011, 08:17 AM
All in due time. He's definitely slowed down some since game one. Its coming to him. You can tell now by the amount of dribbling he does when he touches the ball. In those first two games, it was catch and dribble. He didnt know where he was dribbling to sometimes, but he was off and running. I think its pretty clear though, he's starting to settle down and let it come to him.

All in due time... This

cjm720
12-01-2011, 08:25 AM
I really like Pangos, Bell, and Stocks on the floor at the same time...really pushes opponents defense on their heels, sets up our bigs too.

Was suprised Carter got so many minutes....Gary needs 25+ IMO.

Baldwinzag
12-01-2011, 08:35 AM
Was suprised Carter got so many minutes....Gary needs 25+ IMO.

I like Carter on the court, he's tremendous at defending passing lanes, yet I agree here.

Literally, just swap their minutes -- 33 for GBJ; 20 for Carter. The ol' switch a roo.

Gary Bell's on ball defense is worth 25 mins by itself. Then add in his ability to get to the rim, shoot the 3, crisp passes along the perimeter, etc.

Surprised, actually shocked, at how effective a backcourt combo of Pangos, Stockton, & GBJ has been this season...its been unstoppable every. single. game. Its not ideal for 40 mins, but when we need offense, put 'em in!

maynard g krebs
12-01-2011, 12:27 PM
I was disappointed when GB got the hook after the charge, and didn't see the floor again in the first half if memory serves. After that it was back to him being tentative on offense imo, not wanting to make a mistake. No shots in the second half?

A big part of his game is taking it to the hole, and anybody who does is going to get the occasional charge. I want to see him more aggressive offensively, not less.

Baldwinzag
12-01-2011, 12:35 PM
I was disappointed when GB got the hook after the charge, and didn't see the floor again in the first half if memory serves. After that it was back to him being tentative on offense imo, not wanting to make a mistake. No shots in the second half?

A big part of his game is taking it to the hole, and anybody who does is going to get the occasional charge. I want to see him more aggressive offensively, not less.

+1. Especially since he's the only legitimate threat on the team at attacking the rim off the the dribble.

That said, Pangos had some really nice drives to the hoop last night too...

mgadfly
12-01-2011, 02:07 PM
I think they have things just about right for now. GBJ is new and there is no need to put too much on him too early when we have Carter, Stockton, Monninghoff, and Hart getting minutes too.

I think as the season progresses he will get more and more minutes until he is splitting time with Carter. That's pretty good for a freshman.

I also like when they have Pangos, Stockton, Bell on the court, but I like when they have Pangos, Bell, Carter or Pangos, Bell, MM, or Pangos, Stockton, MM, or Pangos, Stockton, Hart or ...

As much as I miss the aggressive attacking GBJ from high school, I like the ball in Pangos' hands and since I like all our other guards, pretty much like any combination with him on the court. I probably like it a little better when we have three shooters (and Carter, Bell, Pangos, Stockton, and MM can all shoot), but Hart gives us a little size, hustle and defense that is nice too. Plus, they've played him at the four a little which I like.

jazzdelmar
12-01-2011, 02:11 PM
bell has the biggest upside of anyone on the team....bigger than e and rob, yes.....time's a wasting watching carter sleepwalk thru half his minutes...when edi joins i hope that galvanizes few to play his best 5:

pangos
bell
edi
harris
rob....

period.

DixieZag
12-01-2011, 02:54 PM
I would not be surprised if Bell got the start on Saturday. I know that is a tall order for a frosh, but I think he has earned it and, like others have mentioned, we need the offense right now. Bell plays defense at least as well as Carter, but has more offense right now.

I agree that we do stall out on offense at times, thus letting the other team back into the game, even when our defense is playing well. We are playing well defensively, and Bell adds to that. I think that our starting line up will be

Pangos
Bell
Landry
Harris
Sacre

Which is pretty darn exciting if you think about the explosiveness.

jazzdelmar
12-01-2011, 02:57 PM
dixie, hope ur right.....

few’s master plan is to allocate 18 mins to bell??? is that why bell spurned bcs schools, to play behind “sleepy” carter? pangos/bell/edi/harris/sacre!!!!!!! stop the anxiety. i would rather lose a game due to bell and pangos’ inexperience than worry about padding few’s won lost record with “safer” more controllable players like carter and hart…..as for the euros, they’re toast……

john montana
12-01-2011, 03:11 PM
I agree with that lineup jazz, only caveat being that I assume edi is as projected. Still haven't seen him play.

DixieZag
12-01-2011, 03:19 PM
Yes! Hit it right on the head Jazz. We need Bell learning ON THE FLOOR right now, b/c come February and March, Bell will be the guy who can go out against BYU/SMC and against good teams in the tournament and make plays with his skills and athleticism - he is one of four guys we have that can play on any team in the country.

We need to really expand the offensive possibilities, we saw Pangos abuse ND with some fake passes as he drove the lane, Bell has that ability also and needs the PT to get comfortable with the big guys. Once we get the fakes, sets, passes, screens all clicking, this will be a formidable scoring team that is already miles ahead defensively than any recent team.

DADoZAG
12-01-2011, 04:13 PM
I was disappointed when GB got the hook after the charge, and didn't see the floor again in the first half if memory serves. After that it was back to him being tentative on offense imo, not wanting to make a mistake. ….

Isn’t this just another example of reactive coaching rather than proactive coaching? Let a guy play through a mistake for heaven’s sake.


…few’s master plan is to allocate 18 mins to bell??? …

The problem is in the “Master Plan” itself. Having substitutions based on the game clock means that if someone gets the hook early, he misses his next “shift.” This ain’t no union, and it ain’t baseball with a DH.


Go ZAGS!

willandi
12-01-2011, 08:15 PM
Doesn't Few understand? If he keeps coaching this way, he'll never keep his win percentage at 80%!!!
Everyone is welcome to criticise Few all they want. Just keep it in the back of your minds that, over a 10+ year head coaching career, he is right at 80%. If you can do better, you are in the wrong job!

zag67
12-01-2011, 09:27 PM
Will +1. Also I think that if people just let the team keep winning, everyone is going to get their minutes. The key that I think that the coaches are trying to get going are working as a team at both ends. Bell is doing great and by the time we hit league he will be getting the 20 to 25 minutes in many games. But I think that people have to understand when we blow a team out, there will be other players taking the 3 to 5 minutes a game near the end. I think that GB, Pangos, Carter, Hart,and Stockton all undertand this and accept it. That is what is making the great chemistry that we have. At times I do not think we do.

TacomaZAG
12-01-2011, 09:31 PM
is off the charts (best on the team as Jazz said). I thought the OOC games were preparation for conference play and the Dance, which is the important part of the season and the part where we want GBJ ready. The only way for Bell to start realizing his upside is to PLAY, not sit and watch. Of course he is going to lay a few eggs and be occasionally tentative, but that is all part of the learning process.

In horse racing terms, GBJ is a thoroughbred and needs to run. Don't try to break him and turn him into a stakes horse or a mudder. Turn him loose and live with the learning process in the OOC, so he is pretty much done learning during conference play and the Dance.

BTW, I 100% agree with the hoped for starting lineup listed above, especially during conference play and the Dance, when it matters.

Go ZAGS

I 100% agree

Baldwinzag
12-01-2011, 10:33 PM
In horse racing terms, GBJ is a thoroughbred and needs to run. Don't try to break him and turn him into a stakes horse or a mudder. Turn him loose and live with the learning process in the OOC, so he is pretty much done learning during conference play and the Dance.


TZ, I adore horse-racing analogies. Well put.

I'm not sure we've ever had a player like GBJ at Gonzaga -- a special/rare talent who is committed on BOTH sides of the court.

DADoZAG
12-02-2011, 09:33 AM
Doesn't Few understand? If he keeps coaching this way, he'll never keep his win percentage at 80%!!!
Everyone is welcome to criticise Few all they want. Just keep it in the back of your minds that, over a 10+ year head coaching career, he is right at 80%.

Sarcasm is fun.

Having an 80% winning percentage is fun. Winning a mid major league every year is fun. Getting to the NCAA tourney every year is fun.

Losing in the first or second round of the tourney every year is not fun. Missing out on top level talent is not fun. Being touted early by numerous pundits year after year but perpetually falling short is not fun.

No one is trying to say that Mark Few hasn’t built one of the best programs in the history of college basketball. When you consider that Gonzaga is a relatively small school in a relatively small market playing in a relatively mediocre league (at least most years) all those banners hanging in K2 are something this community as a whole should and has embraced with pride.

What Mark Few’s program has accomplished is nothing short of remarkable. His program has been built on a foundation of integrity, loyalty, and consistency. It’s been built using a “Master Plan” that overcame many of its players shortcomings, been built on “doing more with less.” Again, it’s nothing short of remarkable.

From your post it seems obvious that you are satisfied with an 80% winning percentage and all the fun things mentioned above. Mark Few has stated several times he is not. He wants that next level.

Gary Bell Junior may be the first of several non typical ZAG players that can get Coach Few where he wants to go. In my opinion, the “Master Plan” needs to be adjusted to give this new level of talent room to run, room to grow, room to win.

You may be satisfied with 80%, I agree with Few to shoot for 90…

…and a Final Four banner.

Go ZAGS!

bballbeachbum
12-02-2011, 09:56 AM
You may be satisfied with 80%, I agree with Few to shoot for 90…

…and a Final Four banner.

Go ZAGS!

Everyone wants the Final Four, not just the 'unsatisfied' fans.

GO ZAGS!!!

DADoZAG
12-02-2011, 11:06 AM
Everyone wants the Final Four, not just the 'unsatisfied' fans.

GO ZAGS!!!

"Satisfaction breeds stagnation..."

Go ZAGS!

bballbeachbum
12-02-2011, 11:33 AM
everyone wants the final four, not just the 'unsatisfied' fans.

Go zags!!!

go zags!!!

Shanachie
12-02-2011, 11:38 AM
My two cents:

Every game, the coaching staff has a thousand things they are trying to accomplish, which can conceptually be split into two broad categories:

1. Win today's game.
2. Develop and prepare the team to win future games.

As much as we like to to try to make things like playing time decisions seem like they are clear-cut, black and white decisions, they are not. Even during games when accomplishing #1 is not at risk, #2 is a complex proposition. There are multiple considerations - personnel matchups, player combinations, player egos, foul trouble, player health, upcoming schedule, etc. that are all considered in making these decisions.

I'd like to see Bell play more also, but I don't pretend to know exactly what the staff is trying to accomplish and what the considerations are that are driving their decisons at a given moment. And yes, looking over your shoulder worrying about getting pulled for a mistake can be detrimental, but sometimes coaching a player through mistakes may be better than "letting him play through" them. Often, when a player is pulled after a msitake, you'll see an assistant coach go over and talk to him. I don't know what they're saying, but it seems likely to me that they're coaching him about how they want him to handle the situation.

sonuvazag
12-02-2011, 01:32 PM
Shanachie, great post. That was well thought out.

gamagin
12-02-2011, 02:08 PM
Shanachie, great post. That was well thought out.

Is pravda.

mgadfly
12-02-2011, 02:14 PM
Losing in the first or second round of the tourney every year is not fun. Missing out on top level talent is not fun. Being touted early by numerous pundits year after year but perpetually falling short is not fun.



Good thing we don't lose in the first or second round every year. That wouldn't be fun.

Good thing we don't perpetually fall short either. That wouldn't be fun either.

NCAA since "the run":
Round 1: 3 times
Round 2: 5 times
Round 3: 4 times
Round 4: 1 time

bartruff1
12-02-2011, 02:24 PM
I think winning 80% of games is fun...

Vanzagger
12-02-2011, 07:15 PM
points.

I tend to lean towards. Go Zags! Rock the rim.

04ZagFan
12-02-2011, 07:19 PM
I think winning 80% of games is fun...

Yup... We'll never be a perennial threat to win championships/make final fours.. Enjoy being a top 25 program.. Who knows how long it'll last.

willandi
12-02-2011, 09:10 PM
Never said I was satisfied. I am looking for a FF or (dare I say it) a NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP!!!! shhhhhh
What I did say was "If somehow you know more than an 80% career winning coach, then you are in the wrong profession...if you are not a D1 head coach!"
I do think Few makes mistakes, and I am not saying that nobody should never speak out against him. I think GBJ has geart POTENTIAL and may end up being the best player ever at Gonzaga. But, he has a long way to go to get to that point. I don't go to every practice, and don't know what is said and what happens at said practices. I think Few has a plan, and so far it's been pretty good.
Maybe we should get together a petition that we can all sign electronically, DEMANDING that GBJ start and play 30+ minutes a game. Then we could forego the second guessing, in advance, here!

bartruff1
12-03-2011, 10:36 AM
Mike's number is 509 313 3519....I don't think he reads the forum but I am sure he would like to get your advice and hear your concerns ....and be sure to let him know you are about out of patience..(ps...it might go better if you make a significant contribution with Pendo before you call)