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cggonzaga
11-11-2011, 09:40 PM
If you're not going to play them? I thought watching Arop sitting on the bench was bad last year but to have Spangler, Morninghoff not play and Sam Dower get 15 minutes in favor of Mike Hart is absurd! What is Few trying to prove? Very dissappointed in our coach tonight. We need Landry bad or give the sweet shooting Morninghoff an opportunity. We don't finish in the top 3 of the WCC if that rotation sticks this season.

I guess I understand why we aren't recruiting players for 2012 now.

Baldwinzag
11-11-2011, 09:46 PM
If you're not going to play them? I thought watching Arop sitting on the bench was bad last year but to have Spangler, Morninghoff not play and Sam Dower get 15 minutes in favor of Mike Hart is absurd! What is Few trying to prove? Very dissappointed in our coach tonight. We need Landry bad or give the sweet shooting Morninghoff an opportunity. We don't finish in the top 3 of the WCC if that rotation sticks this season.

Especially after watching LMU tonight...whoa. Ireland, Dubois, Hamilton go to work on UCLA -- all this w/o Drew Viney for a few week.

Their guard play was smart, fast, athletic, savvy...gonna be tough when only one of our starting 3 guards have scored a point since the pre-season.

cggonzaga
11-11-2011, 10:01 PM
Especially after watching LMU tonight...whoa. Ireland, Dubois, Hamilton go to work on UCLA -- all this w/o Drew Viney for a few week.

Their guard play was smart, fast, athletic, savvy...gonna be tough when only one of our starting 3 guards have scored a point since the pre-season.

Couldn't agree more. LMU was picked to finish what 5th, 6th? The WCC is guard heavy and as of right now we have 2, Carter and Pangos. Bell is an excellent defender but his offense is a ways away. We need scoring from the wing or no matter how many great bigs we have it won't matter as teams will double and triple team us down low. It's why I feel it is absolutely crucial to get Morninghoff going.

Therunner
11-11-2011, 10:17 PM
Couldn't agree more. LMU was picked to finish what 5th, 6th? The WCC is guard heavy and as of right now we have 2, Carter and Pangos. Bell is an excellent defender but his offense is a ways away. We need scoring from the wing or no matter how many great bigs we have it won't matter as teams will double and triple team us down low. It's why I feel it is absolutely crucial to get Morninghoff going.

Yep, Da' Hoff could provide a much-needed scoring threat in this back court.

U Zig, I Zag
11-11-2011, 10:20 PM
You need some swagger at some point. E has it, Rob does. Pangos showed it against Carroll and again tonight at times. Otherwise, no.

This game, though a win, will give me bad dreams for a couple nights.

ZagsGoZags
11-11-2011, 10:22 PM
does it help to say that the US and UK usually start their wars slowly and get everyone worried at the beginning?

VinnyZag
11-11-2011, 10:22 PM
Blanchette tweet from Few's press conference:


Few on Mike Hart's 29 minutes: "We need to get Guy eligible, that will help at that spot. But he's somebody that we really trust."

cggonzaga
11-11-2011, 10:23 PM
This game, though a win, will give me bad dreams for a couple nights.

Ha, good thing we only have to wait a couple of nights instead of a week! Hopefully we'll have a better showing against Wazzu otherwise the game won't be close.

cggonzaga
11-11-2011, 10:25 PM
Few on Mike Hart's 29 minutes: "We need to get Guy eligible, that will help at that spot

Hahahahaha, ya think??? Why not play EH there in the meantime and play Dower more than 15 minutes? Or again, why not play a sharpshooter?

sonuvazag
11-11-2011, 10:28 PM
Great question. Stockton has already been unseated, but is Hart going to be playing the whole game again on Monday?

Timeout!
11-11-2011, 10:32 PM
What was Few doing tonight?

Inexplicable on so many levels.

3 vs 5 on offense = wth

Hart plays 30 minutes with no offense = wth

No Monninghoff when we needed a shooter = wth

No Spangler when we needed key rebounds & experience = wth

Starting & Playing 2 walk-ons 60 mins when GBJ needed more seasoning = wth

Dower plays half the time(15 mins) as a kid who didn't play last season(30mins = wth

Bogozags
11-11-2011, 10:39 PM
LMU has a great win...

Kevin Young an LMU xfer to KU scored 13 on 6 of 7 shooting and 7 rebounds in 14 minutes of play...he will be a key player off their bench as a junior.

Vanzagger
11-11-2011, 10:42 PM
Kelly Graves is a good coach/game manager

cggonzaga
11-11-2011, 10:44 PM
And very personable.

Johnnygu
11-11-2011, 10:56 PM
I read on this board several times last year people complaining about how we had too many people in the rotation (and I agreed with them) and now there is a thread saying why isn't everyone getting minutes.

LESS PLAYERS GOING IN AND OUT IS A GOOD THING!

So many great coaches out there (Wooden, Jerry Tarkanian, others) said you only need 7 to 8 really solid guys. Too much substitution disrupts the ability of players to get in a rhythm.

ZagsGoZags
11-11-2011, 11:13 PM
yes, but you have to find out who the 8 are
I have trouble believing spangler would not be one of the 8

I am just grateful for the win
Arizona and UCLA losing to their respective underdogs

we did not lose to ours.
the score makes it look better than it was, though
a few more crazy 3 pointers go in at the last by EWU and the game could have gone their way, in a cinderella frenzy

ZagFanInNC
11-11-2011, 11:19 PM
I read on this board several times last year people complaining about how we had too many people in the rotation (and I agreed with them) and now there is a thread saying why isn't everyone getting minutes.

LESS PLAYERS GOING IN AND OUT IS A GOOD THING!

So many great coaches out there (Wooden, Jerry Tarkanian, others) said you only need 7 to 8 really solid guys. Too much substitution disrupts the ability of players to get in a rhythm.

I don't think anyone has a problem with the minutes, its who they are given too. Mike Hart should be a guy to bring off of the bench for defense or a spark. Him starting is interesting, him playing as many minutes as he did is a joke. The Mathis' were on the bench the entire game, they should have split those minutes... what do I know though, Keita playing 3 minutes a game for the season is going to be so productive, he may as well RS. Monninghoff (dont feel like checking the spelling) is easily our best shooter and should be on the court for some stretches.

Tonight was brutal, who in Gods sweet name told Mike Hart to shoot the ball at all?

VinnyZag
11-11-2011, 11:24 PM
Tonight was brutal, who in Gods sweet name told Mike Hart to shoot the ball at all?

If he's going to be in the game, he's got to shoot it when he's open.

Johnnygu
11-11-2011, 11:37 PM
who in Gods sweet name told Mike Hart to shoot the ball at all?

I agree, Hart should never shoot it. Just think Rodman and give the ball to someone else right after he rebounds it.


Dower will get way more minutes in the future, I'm not really worried about that.

Hoff and Keita should redshirt. They are quality players but they're just excess. And I hate to be brutal, but I put Stockton back on the bench. Pangos is your guy to take you new heights, play him early and often. Hart is your fill in guy, which I think he was doing tonight in place of Landry.

So it's Pangos, Harris, Bell, Dower, Carter, Sacre, Landry, and Hart as fill in.

Thats my solid seven, and they get the entirety of the minutes.

ExtremeJim
11-11-2011, 11:43 PM
...to have Spangler, Morninghoff not play and Sam Dower get 15 minutes in favor of Mike Hart is absurd! What is Few trying to prove? Very dissappointed in our coach tonight.

Relax. I understand they were withheld from the game because of their past associations with Penn State. Spangler once sent for a Penn State catalog before he settled on basketball to be his college sport. Morninghoff played in a game in Germany at which a Penn State recruiter was evaluating one of the players on the opposite team, and when asked by the NCAA Clearinghouse two years ago, Keita admitted he had never heard of Joe Paterno, but when shown a photograph, correctly guessed the subject was "old, very old."

I think they will be allowed to play, once some of the furor has died down, but this is not the time to admit to any association with the Penn State athletic department, however slight.

2wiceright
11-11-2011, 11:47 PM
If he's going to be in the game, he's got to shoot it when he's open.

I think it's the "if he's going to be in the game" part (especially starting and getting 30 minutes) that I think a lot of people have a problem with (IMO). You got to admire the guy for his hustle and defense but he puts us in the same 4 on 5 dilemma on offense we had with Meech (Even though I was one of Meech's biggest fans, I can now see the frustration- when we have players who can score and play D not getting much if any time). Bottom line- he's a valuable asset as a spot player, not a starter. Just my opinion....

Kiddwell
11-11-2011, 11:56 PM
As opined in another thread, if Few doesn't play Hoff and Spangler tonight (which, IMHO, he should have), then maybe he did so in order to "hide" those players' value from WSU (i.e. the Cougs won't be preparing for them).

If not that, then Hoff's and Spangler's absence tonight totally confuses this fan. :confused:

Oh, the same thing for Few giving Sam so little floor time.

:[

duper
11-11-2011, 11:57 PM
As opined in another thread, if Few doesn't play Hoff and Spangler tonight (which, IMHO, he should have), then maybe he did so in order to "hide" those players' value from WSU (i.e. the Cougs won't be preparing for them).

If not that, then Hoff's and Spangler's absence tonight totally confuses this fan. :confused:

:[

Maybe WSU is doing the sandbagging with their injuries:cheers:

GUnawinit
11-12-2011, 12:25 AM
brings the skill set, that sets the tone for the rest of the team. One can't see Mike's stats in the paper, but I can tell you this....

Watching the game, this guy has a nose for the ball....

I agree, I like Hoff and Spangler, but, Hart brings it...remember he has very little PT as well. BUT, has earned it...

Let things shake out...geez, when March comes around I want this guy on my team...

Remember Meech?, He had one bucket we'll all remember..and started..too many games...

Mike Hart's hustle is, gon'na win GU a game or two and you'll think back on this thread...I mean that nicely!

xjzico
11-12-2011, 12:45 AM
I don't believe Meech deserves such an insult. For a staff purportedly known for its talent evaluation to miss out on almost three strait guards (Meech, Gibbs, Vilarino) consecutively is a giant red flag.

ZagFanInNC
11-12-2011, 01:09 AM
Mike Hart's hustle is, gon'na win GU a game or two and you'll think back on this thread...I mean that nicely!

Hart's value is coming off of the bench and out hustling people for a 5 minute stretch. This suprises the other team and his hustle plays give us a spark. When he gets the ball he should give it up and set a screen or get the hell out of the way and hustle for a rebound... and then if he gets it give the ball up again.

That is when he is most effective, you can't play at his tempo for 30 minutes and still be a difference maker. At that point you are just another player who has been playing all game and is tired, but when you are the worst offensive player in program history (I know he's a walk on but if he is starting any games he is up for criticism) you become a serious liability.


I do agree he may win us a game or two with spot defensive pressure/turnovers, but it won't happen with him being a starter and jacking up 3's and missing layups like he was tonight.

GUnawinit
11-12-2011, 01:48 AM
to be an insult.....Meech..as they say "It is what it is"

He had no confidence, that's not on him...the coaching staff didn't believe in him. If they did he'd still be there!

Letting G.J. Villarino getting away was a big mistake....

GUnawinit
11-12-2011, 01:57 AM
ZagFanInNC

Just saying the guy deserves some PT...but, probably not the worst offensive guy in the history of the program! :) Stockton's no star

cjm720
11-12-2011, 07:35 AM
Very very puzzling. I'm quite dissapointed in the rotation and our result. Ko basically redshifted for mike hart...wtf

deathchina
11-12-2011, 08:05 AM
[QUOTE=ZagFanInNC;695087]Hart's value is coming off of the bench and out hustling people for a 5 minute stretch. This suprises the other team and his hustle plays give us a spark. When he gets the ball he should give it up and set a screen or get the hell out of the way and hustle for a rebound... and then if he gets it give the ball up again.


Agree 1000 percent. Hart can give the team a nice energy injection with his hustle and intensity but has too many offensive liabilities to be counted on for long periods of time. And he isn't a "dominant" game-changing defender.


GUnawinit says "Come on, D Stockton's not a D1 athlete, we all know it...

You know it, I know it....."


I wouldn't care that he lacks athleticism if he was a dead-eye shooter with a quick release. It's not like Raivio was a good athlete...

Of course this is where someone says "oh, but I saw Stock dunk one time!"...well, I'm fat, 30 years old, never played competitive basketball, barely 6 feet tall and I can dunk too...This is hardly an achievement that a DI athlete should be proud of.

I do like both of these players but in more limited roles. I think other guys on the team certainly have more "upside" and if we're trying to be the best team we can be in March, we need to explore other options.

Bogozags
11-12-2011, 08:26 AM
Relax. I understand they were withheld from the game because of their past associations with Penn State. Spangler once sent for a Penn State catalog before he settled on basketball to be his college sport. Morninghoff played in a game in Germany at which a Penn State recruiter was evaluating one of the players on the opposite team, and when asked by the NCAA Clearinghouse two years ago, Keita admitted he had never heard of Joe Paterno, but when shown a photograph, correctly guessed the subject was "old, very old."

I think they will be allowed to play, once some of the furor has died down, but this is not the time to admit to any association with the Penn State athletic department, however slight.

Funny!

Baldwinzag
11-12-2011, 08:29 AM
In some ways, it works against you to be on scholarship -- your leash is even shorter to begin with...

I'd say you're allowed a little more leeway or lackluster play w/o one. ;)

Too soon?

zagademic
11-12-2011, 08:37 AM
I don't believe Meech deserves such an insult. For a staff purportedly known for its talent evaluation to miss out on almost three strait guards (Meech, Gibbs, Vilarino) consecutively is a giant red flag.

He certainly doesn't deserve it. And keeping the Mathises on the bench was discouraging. At best we don't have to worry about peaking early

zagfan1970
11-12-2011, 08:38 AM
I read on this board several times last year people complaining about how we had too many people in the rotation (and I agreed with them) and now there is a thread saying why isn't everyone getting minutes.

LESS PLAYERS GOING IN AND OUT IS A GOOD THING!

So many great coaches out there (Wooden, Jerry Tarkanian, others) said you only need 7 to 8 really solid guys. Too much substitution disrupts the ability of players to get in a rhythm.

How many of JT, JW, and other's teams that only played 7-8 man rotations used walk-ons for 60 minutes? How many of their top recruits would have left if they WERE PROMISED a bunch of BS when being recruited then sat behind a "guy we really trust?" Just as many GREAT coaches Williams, Calipari, Krzyzewski used lengthy and frequent substitution patterns and do NOT tolerate a lack of effort. The Zags' strength is NOT raw talent this year ( that would be teams of Downs, Pargo, Daye, Brown, Bouldin, Heytfelt) those teams could get by on talent. This year's strength is DEPTH, use it!!! The lack of experience can be masked a little by running guys in and out, keeping them fresh, and then if they are pulled they don't always feel it was for doing something wrong.

75Zag
11-12-2011, 09:35 AM
Few is surrounded by highly touted incoming players but chose to play the unheralded unrecruited guys. Kind of like the guy who is surrounded by beautiful women but chooses to ask the ugly girl to go to the prom.

Perhaps Few is using the Lifetime Movie Channel method of coaching.

Go Bulldogs! Get Bigger!

TheGonzagaFactor
11-12-2011, 10:13 AM
In reference to Meech...


He had no confidence, that's not on him...the coaching staff didn't believe in him. If they did he'd still be there!


yeah, they should have let him get decent time as a backup his freshman year then started him the next two. That would have been a pretty good show of confidence in a sub-20% 3 point shooter.

LongIslandZagFan
11-12-2011, 11:40 AM
Based on what I have read... Why hasn't someone started firemarkfew.com already.

Get a grip people.

ZagFanInNC
11-12-2011, 12:12 PM
Few is surrounded by highly touted incoming players but chose to play the unheralded unrecruited guys. Kind of like the guy who is surrounded by beautiful women but chooses to ask the ugly girl to go to the prom.

Perhaps Few is using the Lifetime Movie Channel method of coaching.

Go Bulldogs! Get Bigger!

lol:000tens:

primal23
11-12-2011, 12:20 PM
Hart's value is coming off of the bench and out hustling people for a 5 minute stretch. This suprises the other team and his hustle plays give us a spark. When he gets the ball he should give it up and set a screen or get the hell out of the way and hustle for a rebound... and then if he gets it give the ball up again.

That is when he is most effective, you can't play at his tempo for 30 minutes and still be a difference maker. At that point you are just another player who has been playing all game and is tired, but when you are the worst offensive player in program history (I know he's a walk on but if he is starting any games he is up for criticism) you become a serious liability.


I do agree he may win us a game or two with spot defensive pressure/turnovers, but it won't happen with him being a starter and jacking up 3's and missing layups like he was tonight.

This

zagfan1970
11-12-2011, 12:35 PM
Based on what I have read... Why hasn't someone started firemarkfew.com already.

Get a grip people.

Some of us realize that to post something like that would be sure grounds for murderous "banment!" To offend the masses that worship Few and his failure to take the program beyond the Sweet Sixteen where his predecessor did would be Forum suicide! To suggest such a site is Zag blasphemy.

LongIslandZagFan
11-12-2011, 12:39 PM
Yes... Cuz so many teams have gotten to the S16 as often as the Zags. How far has that predecessor taken other teams? Just curious.

One game and people want Mark Few's head? Really people... Get a grip.

Johnnygu
11-12-2011, 12:49 PM
How many of JT, JW, and other's teams that only played 7-8 man rotations used walk-ons for 60 minutes? How many of their top recruits would have left if they WERE PROMISED a bunch of BS when being recruited then sat behind a "guy we really trust?" Just as many GREAT coaches Williams, Calipari, Krzyzewski used lengthy and frequent substitution patterns and do NOT tolerate a lack of effort. The Zags' strength is NOT raw talent this year ( that would be teams of Downs, Pargo, Daye, Brown, Bouldin, Heytfelt) those teams could get by on talent. This year's strength is DEPTH, use it!!! The lack of experience can be masked a little by running guys in and out, keeping them fresh, and then if they are pulled they don't always feel it was for doing something wrong.

Walk on or highly rated recruit....that doesnt earn playing time or designate you a bench warmer. Just because you are a highly rated recruit doesn't mean you automatically get minutes. Hart apparently has earned playing time according to Few. The Hoff and Star Spangled Spangler will get their opportunity down the road, but right now they are just excess, although they are quality players. I like a small rotation. And I don't agree about Williams, Calipari, and Coach K. Come tourney time they have a short rotation.

Vanzagger
11-12-2011, 01:02 PM
Yes... Cuz so many teams have gotten to the S16 as often as the Zags. How far has that predecessor taken other teams? Just curious.

One game and people want Mark Few's head? Really people... Get a grip.

Now Dan did not take over National programs with the best facilities and fans in the conference.

Coaches get paid the big bucks for a reason. It's not an easy job and there will always be critics. There is no need to defend our coaches every time a question or jab comes along. Oh and by jab i did not mean violence.

I think our window is getting smaller. I question the walk-ons minutes. I really hope I'm wrong.

LongIslandZagFan
11-12-2011, 02:11 PM
Now Dan did not take over National programs with the best facilities and fans in the conference.


Ummm... neither did Few. Nuff said.

This hemming and hawing over a win borders on neurotic... it really does. Was it pretty... no. Stop trying to over analyze everything.

NorthoftheBorder
11-12-2011, 02:27 PM
When Zagfan1970 made this comment:


Just as many GREAT coaches Williams, Calipari, Krzyzewski use lengthy and frequent substitution patterns

it didn't seem to match up my recollection on how Williams, Calipari and Coach K use their bench so I looked up last year's stats.

Duke - 7 players with 17 mpg or more, 8th man - 10 mpg, 9th man - 6 mpg

Kentucky - 7 players with 19 mpg or more, 8th man - 14 mpg, 9th man - 5 mpg

UNC - 7 players with 15 mpg or more, 8th man - 14 mpg, 9th man - 9 mpg

GU (last year) - 9 players with 14 mpg or more, 10th man - 13 pmg


As far as I can remember, Coach K, Calipari and Williams basically use 7 or 8 man rotations. Coach Few uses more players more often than any of those coaches. If you look at the success of Duke, UNC & Calipari (Kentucky & Memphis) you could argue that the ideal rotation is 7 "main" players with 2 role players.

I have no idea where Zagfan1970 got the idea that the three coaches he mentioned use "lengthy and frequent" substitiution patterns. That was clearly not the case last year and I'm pretty sure that those substitution patterns are pretty consistent for those coaches over the past 10 years.

zagfan1970
11-12-2011, 02:37 PM
Nobody knows how Dan would have done if he had stayed, I do remember lots of people having serious worries as to the future of the Zags! I also remember people having huge expectations before Monson made a decision. Just a question, but how many trainers would have a job if their clients gained weight instead of losing weight, ran slower 100's, bench pressed less, etc. Had Monson left after a 15-15 record, would Few still have his job if we had never win 16 games? Progress PLEASE

Johnnygu
11-12-2011, 02:57 PM
Nobody knows how Dan would have done if he had stayed, I do remember lots of people having serious worries as to the future of the Zags! I also remember people having huge expectations before Monson made a decision. Just a question, but how many trainers would have a job if their clients gained weight instead of losing weight, ran slower 100's, bench pressed less, etc. Had Monson left after a 15-15 record, would Few still have his job if we had never win 16 games? Progress PLEASE

Few is the reason why this program is where it is today. Period.

zagzilla
11-12-2011, 03:56 PM
I don't like hearing Few say Hart gets minutes because "we trust him". Doesn't that just send a message to your other players that you DON'T trust THEM?

Bad leadership move IMO

ZZ

TheGonzagaFactor
11-12-2011, 04:01 PM
I don't like hearing Few say Hart gets minutes because "we trust him". Doesn't that just send a message to your other players that you DON'T trust THEM?

Bad leadership move IMO


Didn't think of it like that, but I could absolutely see players taking it that way.

2wiceright
11-12-2011, 04:27 PM
I don't like hearing Few say Hart gets minutes because "we trust him". Doesn't that just send a message to your other players that you DON'T trust THEM?

Bad leadership move IMO

ZZ

+ 1 - Well put Zagzilla...

cggonzaga
11-12-2011, 05:08 PM
I don't like hearing Few say Hart gets minutes because "we trust him". Doesn't that just send a message to your other players that you DON'T trust THEM?

Bad leadership move IMO

ZZ


That's exactly the way I took it. And what is it exactly you trust Hart to do? He didn't play good defense, he NEVER made a pass or dribble that lead to any points, he didn't score outside of 2 wide open layups and missed several wide open shots. The one thing I give him credit for is his hustle but at some point that hustle needs to make a difference. I dont see that happening. If what you trust him to do is not make critical mistakes and just be a body on the floor than he's the man. This just isnt the same Mark Few led teams of the past decade. Where are those run and gun high scoring play loose teams?

04ZagFan
11-12-2011, 05:44 PM
I'm glad someone mentioned watching Arop sit on the bench....

Arop was terrible. Watching Hart last night was like watching Arop last season. Both were clearly rattled and where doing just about everything wrong.

It was obvious last year that Hart should have played over Arop last year, but it was even more obvious last night that ANYBODY should have came in for Hart. He was terrible. He's a very talented situational player, but in big minutes, he's in way over his head.

When Hart starting struggling on D, it was obvious to me Hoff should have gotten to play. At least he has the ability to make a shot.

LongIslandZagFan
11-12-2011, 07:58 PM
I don't like hearing Few say Hart gets minutes because "we trust him". Doesn't that just send a message to your other players that you DON'T trust THEM?

Bad leadership move IMO

ZZ


He should be fired.

cggonzaga
11-12-2011, 08:03 PM
He should be fired.

Come on LIZ, you're better than that. I expect that from some others but not from you. He makes a solid argument. He's not saying Few sucks or should be fired.

primal23
11-12-2011, 08:30 PM
Come on LIZ, you're better than that. I expect that from some others but not from you. He makes a solid argument. He's not saying Few sucks or should be fired.

It's become to much of all or nothing around here