PDA

View Full Version : Realistic line up thread



Malastein
11-04-2011, 03:04 PM
Name your top lineups maximizing these traits:
1. Defense
2. Rebounding
3. Shooting
4. Ballhandling

For every lineup, you should have position appropriate players and not put 5 bigs on the rebounding line up. Sometimes 3 bigs and 2 guards make sense, and sometimes 4 guards and one big makes sense. Have fun with this, and I look forward to reading the responses after I'm off work tonight.

gbnyba17
11-04-2011, 03:17 PM
Defense:
PG - MC
SG - GBJ
SF - Guy/Keita (Depending on the length/intangible of the other teams SF)
PF - Dower (for pure length, understand he isnt a great defender, but havent seen enough out of Spang yet)
C - Big Rob

Rebounding: See Defensive line-up above

Shooting:
PG - Pangos
SG - MC
SF - MM
PF - EH
C - Dower

Ballhandling:

PG - Stocks
SG - Pangos
SF - GBJ
SF - Guy (if this is a stretch at the 4, than insert EH)
C - Big Rob

04ZagFan
11-04-2011, 03:20 PM
I have ONE starting line up... I'm too lazy to make up 4 different ones.

Bell(he has always said he came here to be a PG, and he calls himself the "Point Guard for Gonzaga University)
Carter
Hoff
Elias
Rob

Need more defense? Insert Mike Hart for Hoff

Need more rebounding? I'd probably put Hart in for Hoff, or Spangler in for Hoff. Doesn't make sense to take arguably our best player off the court (Elias) if we need more rebounding, obviously it's a close game. Can't afford his offense being out.

Need shooting? Well, Hoff stays in, Pangos comes in for Bell and Dower comes in for Rob (although again, not sure you can afford Rob coming out of the game)

Ball handling? I think all of our guards are capable.

MickMick
11-04-2011, 03:21 PM
Situational play as opposed to a lineup.

If a guard is killing us with penetration, insert Hart. They guy sets up quickly and takes a charge. The half circle actually helps him (and the ref). Tu Holloway anyone?

I like Spangler as a rebounder, but there are others that can get it done.

I'm less concerned about shooting than I have been for years. The Zags can score from every position. MM can get streaky hot, but so can others.

Ball handling takes a back seat to passing. The Zags aren't going to beat people with isolated "one on one" dribble drive matchups. They are going to beat folks with ball movement and players moving without the ball. A style that approximates SMC's style as opposed to what we have seen from GU in recent years. I haven't seen enough examples from Landry or Bell to know if GU has good "penetrators". I reserve the right to change my mind on this depending on what I see those two (and possibly Dranginis) do.

04ZagFan
11-04-2011, 03:24 PM
Situational play as opposed to a lineup.

If a guard is killing us with penetration, insert Hart. They guy sets up quickly and takes a charge. The half circle actually helps him (and the ref).

I like Spangler as a rebounder, but there are others that can get it done.

I'm less concerned about shooting than I have been for years. The Zags can score from every position.

Ball handling takes a back seat to passing. The Zags aren't going to beat people with isolated "one on one" dribble drive matchups. They are going to beat folks with ball movement and players moving without the ball. A style that approximates SMC's style as opposed to what we have seen from GU in recent years. I haven't seen enough examples from Landry or Bell to know if GU has good "penetrators"

Exactly.

ZagsGoZags
11-04-2011, 06:50 PM
pangos
bell
carter
harris
sacre

GUnawinit
11-05-2011, 02:07 AM
Absolutely a great point..

"If a guard is killing us with penetration, insert Hart."

The most overlooked is, "Hart"...great size and a nose for the ball! I've felt this way since originally seening this kid...

You can't replace his great motor on "D" and has the size to go inside on the "O" end!

Nice thought!

Reborn
11-05-2011, 07:45 AM
It's an interesting post. It's like looking at basketball as if it were football. The nice thing about football is that you can actually have different kids of units, as Mal calls them. You have your kickoff team, punting team, receiving team, offense and defensive teams.

Unfortunately basketball does now work that way. The game is too fast. And that's what makes coaching this sport so very difficult. Because the team needs guys who can rebound, pass, handle the ball preasure, and score the coach must be able to handle situations that call for a change. And that's what substituting is about.

The challenge in coaching basketball is to try to fill all these needs with five guys. To me the deciding factor is chemistry. Which five guys are our best chance for winning the game? We have had a lot of posts about the starting five, but I think the most telling unit is the unit who is in at the end of the game. And most times, at the end of the game you will have an offensive unit and a defensive unit. Coaches will try to get their best defender into the game in the last two minutes. The same holds true for free throw shooting.

Here is who I think is our best unit in the last 3 minutes of the game.

1. You need a guy who can score one on one, and to me this guy is Elias Harris or Rob. They are both good foul shooters at the end of the game.

2. You need a point guard who can penetrate and kick, and who can get the ball to the "hot" shooter. That guy is Pangos. He can also score. If defenders slack off of our guards in order to help defend and or double Rob and Elias, you will need a great shooter who they can pass the ball to. That guy is Pangos.

3. You will need a wing who can score from the outside as well as penetrate and try to get fouled. He is also a good foul shooter. That guy is Carter. Carter has shown he can hit open shots at the end of games. Carter is the most underrated Zag this year for some reason. I look fro Marquis to have a sensational year.He will definitely average more than 13 points per game.
He hasn't done much in preseason because he doen't need to. The preseason games are for the Freshman and JC transfers. They're games Few uses to evaluate these players.

4. The other wing position is the one that I am most unsure of at this point because, honestly, the team hasn't played enough games to truly evaluate the position. I think this position will be an offensive/defensive position and that Few will sub every time our team scores. At this point of the year I think the offensive player will be Monninghoff and the defensive player Bell.

5. Besides Bell the other player who subs into defense will be Hart for Harris. We know this from last year. If Rob is in foul trouble at the end of the game we will see Sam Dower.

roxdoc
11-05-2011, 11:21 AM
Spot on ....great analysis Reborn.

ZagFanInNC
11-05-2011, 11:36 AM
Since when do we believe in defense... ever?
It should be the outscore the opponent lineup.

Malastein
11-05-2011, 01:13 PM
It's an interesting post. It's like looking at basketball as if it were football. The nice thing about football is that you can actually have different kids of units, as Mal calls them. You have your kickoff team, punting team, receiving team, offense and defensive teams.

Unfortunately basketball does now work that way. The game is too fast. And that's what makes coaching this sport so very difficult. Because the team needs guys who can rebound, pass, handle the ball preasure, and score the coach must be able to handle situations that call for a change. And that's what substituting is about.

The challenge in coaching basketball is to try to fill all these needs with five guys. To me the deciding factor is chemistry. Which five guys are our best chance for winning the game? We have had a lot of posts about the starting five, but I think the most telling unit is the unit who is in at the end of the game. And most times, at the end of the game you will have an offensive unit and a defensive unit. Coaches will try to get their best defender into the game in the last two minutes. The same holds true for free throw shooting.

I respectfully disagree. Basketball is all about the match ups, so if another team is throwing out 5 athletic defenders and pressing full court then you want to maximize ball handling to break that press. If a team is throwing out a difficult zone, then you want a strong shooting unit to break it. At the end of the game, sometimes you just need the ball as much in your hands as much as possible so you put in your rebounders. Sometimes you just need to get stops at any costs.

I think this is an interesting discussion which goes beyond who is merely starting, and forces people to discuss the actual skill sets of players. Ideally, you'd want to have 5 guys adept at everything on the court at the same time, especially if they are appropriately sized for the 5 positions. There's just too often guys like Meech, who simply can't shoot from outside. So you have to find the right mix and put players in roles in which they can succeed. Using players in different line ups allows a certain amount of strategy where the opposing coach will have to realize what it is to meet it.

Basketball isn't a simple game, but a lot of substitutions are thought out more on a chess-like level. If you put your team in a position to maximize a certain strength, then you may indeed get an upper hand while the opposing coach has to figure out the strategy. Of course, it's also a game of percentages, and guys like Ryan Spangler will have periods where they don't collect as many rebounds as other times. And Kevin Pangos will have his hot moments, and will be cold at times as well. I think this team has enough options to really strategize in ways previous teams have been unable.

MickMick
11-05-2011, 02:49 PM
Hey Mal, I agree with the concept of situations as opposed to set lineups. However, one could set lineups with 2-3 substitutions and call them "packages" similar to how a NFL team will substitute a "nickle" package for a predictable passing down.

Sometimes a team can impose their will by defeating an opponent's strength. Vince Lombardi, as described by author and Hall of Fame player, Jerry Kramer, from the book "Instant Replay", subscribed to the theory of beating an opponent's strength as opposed to exploiting a weakness. Lombardi believed that defeating the strength of an opponent contributes toward "breaking their will".

Let's think of some situations.

I started with:

*If a guard is killing us with penetration, insert Hart.

I'll add:

*If a team is playing a "soft" zone that cheats toward our bigs, insert Monninghoff.

* If our bigs are having difficulty blocking out (ala SDSU last year), insert Spangler

*If we can get a size mismatch at the two position to post up inside (ala sophomore Bouldin when Pargo ran the offense), insert Dranginis.

3zagda
11-05-2011, 02:50 PM
Pg- Pangos.
Sg-Carter.
Sf-Harris
Pf-Dower
C-Sacre

At this point, Pangos seems to be our best hope as Pg. He has looked great both pre GU and so far this year. Maybe Bell is our guy, but I have not seen he is up to taking the reins @ this point. I don't see Stockton as our future @ Pg.
Some might say Carter should be Pg, but I think he is more comfortable as shooting guard. He showed at the end of last season he can really play well at this level. I expect he will have a great year.
Harris is projected as SF in the pros, let's use him there. He will be a tough person to guard in that position. if he is healthy, I expect he can dominate @ SF.
Dower is why we can move Harris to SF. Sam is a classic Power Forward. He has a sweet shot and is a big body. And he is to good to leave on the bench until Rob gets tired.
Rob is a force at the post and can battle with best bigs in the country.

kitzbuel
11-05-2011, 05:26 PM
Name your top lineups maximizing these traits:
1. Defense
2. Rebounding
3. Shooting
4. Ballhandling

For every lineup, you should have position appropriate players and not put 5 bigs on the rebounding line up. Sometimes 3 bigs and 2 guards make sense, and sometimes 4 guards and one big makes sense. Have fun with this, and I look forward to reading the responses after I'm off work tonight.

Defensive/Rebounding
Carter
GBJ
Guy
Harris
Sacre


Offensive
Pangos (swap out with DS is shooting isn't as key)
Carter
Harris
KO (swap with SD situationally)
Sacre

Reborn
11-05-2011, 07:01 PM
It's okay to disagree, Malestine! And I do disagree with you, and with Mick Mick too. You do not coach basketball like football, and you do not play it like football either. I have watched a lot of basketball, and Im sure you guys have, and I have not seen basketball coached the way Malestine suggests. There is one type of unit that does play now and then at Gonzaga and thats a pressing team. In this unit you have 4 guards who press. I think the last time I saw GU do it was with Earl Knight. The Zags used it some with Pendo being the 4th pressing player with a center, but Pendo was not a guard.
I have never seen a team have a rebounding unit, nor a shooting unit, and as Ive said, I have not seen Few use a different group of players to press very often.

The key to all this is recruiting players who DO have multiple skills. Personally, I do not think there are many guards around who are as poor of an outside shooter as Meech was, and actually as bad of an offensive player as he was. Malestine uses Meech as a good example as why coaches should use his theory, but honestly Meech is not a good example for a typical guard. You recruit players for positions, and the positions have a set of skills that a coach is looking for in players. So I think that basketball is more a game of positions then units. A coach seldoms subs with units but rather with individuals who may bring certain strengths to a position when the he is needed. For an example Few uses Mike Hart when he needs defense (as I indicated in my first thread).

Another way that coaches substitute is by minutes, and i believe that this is the most frequently used way to sub. Players EARN a certain amount of minutes in practice and in games. This is something that Jerry Krause does, and he's a master of evaluating players' performances. Most coaches also have a rotation that is set, and I think that most of the time coaches like to keep it the same way. Players get used to knowing when they will go into the game.

So sorry Mal. I just do not buy into your theory, and that's all it is. I just don't see any coaches using it. You may be right. It is surely something to think about and discuss. You got me thinking and posting more than usual lately.

Malastein
11-05-2011, 07:08 PM
I realize you don't coach or play it the same way, but I certainly remember games in the past where Coach Few put out 4 really good shooters and tried to have them bomb 3s to catch up.