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View Full Version : Any one else concerned about our Starting Unit?



Therunner
11-03-2011, 09:59 AM
As a unit, not as individual players.

Does any other posters find it a wee bit concerning about an obvious, yet unspoken trend to start this season?

Here's the deal: the starting-5 as a GROUP have looked rather sub-par and lackluster in both the intra-squad scrimmage and exhibition game.

I'm not sure people realize the "First Unit" have started very slowly. They were going bucket for bucket vs Carroll College and getting beat on defense, then they were losing vs their back-ups during Kraziness.

The starting players have looked good individually and / or when mixed in with the other players such as Guy Landry, Kevin Pangos, Sam Dower, Ryan Spangler, et al, yet as a Starting Group, something has lacked in the two appearances.

Hey, I'm the first to admit its early, really early. Pre-season has a "pre" prefix for a reason. The real season hasn't even started.

We don't have much to go on, but from what I've seen, something isn't right with the first group as a TEAM just yet.

I guess what I'm saying is, the moment Dower, Pangos, Spangler, etc came into the game vs Carroll College the lead went from 4 pts to nearly 15 pts in a matter of minutes.

This is not to suggest the 2nd group of players(please don't make this about so & so vs so & so) are better than the starters, b/c they simply are not, but it speaks to the first unit's strength as a unit.

I'm sure how comfortable I feel with the current group of starters. Based on the first two eye-witness accounts, it lacks energy and defense. Also, not one player, save Elias/Rob, seem to want to take the shot or make the first move. I think its holding them back and will come in time, but at this juncture, the 'starters' have been out-played as a team, well, by the rest of the team.

Just don't be surprised if there are 2, maybe even 3 position changes following the first few games.

We need energy to start games i.e., take the first shot, set the tempo, play sticky defense, make good decisions etc. Its just not happening, not yet.

Maybe its just nerves, lack of experience, and uncertainty, but as you can certainly tell, I am a little concerned about the current starting UNIT (lastly, not the players themselves, but the unit. Can't stress that enough).

Apologies for the long-winded post.

hooter73
11-03-2011, 10:04 AM
No.

One game against NAIA, "starters" didnt feel they had to prove themselves like the others. Wait for a couple real games in.

gamagin
11-03-2011, 10:08 AM
missing the switch off daylight savings time this weekend, causing me to show up about 1.5-2 hours early for all of our home games. Or will I be 1.5-2 hours late. You see what I mean ?

That said, is it spring back and fall ahead ? I think so. Or what ?

I just hope the Zags can carry on, even win a few, without taking on all my worries.

roxdoc
11-03-2011, 10:10 AM
First unit is playing like last year's team, just doing what they do.

FuManShoes
11-03-2011, 10:20 AM
I'm extremely concerned. I didn't sleep at all last night. I called a crisis line and they suggested I see someone about his ASAP. Headed to a clinic now!

coolhandzag
11-03-2011, 10:25 AM
Nope. I have gotten accustomed to the slow starts. A porous parameter defense should be expected to follow.

cjm720
11-03-2011, 10:25 AM
A bit. I expect a fair amount of tinkering by Few. (read between the lines: Pangos will become the starter).

Therunner
11-03-2011, 10:39 AM
OK, maybe "concerned" wasn't the right word above.

How about this --

Can any one offer a reasonable explanation on how our 2nd team players, mostly in the backcourt(PG, SG, SF), have outperformed the 1st unit in both games/situations?

Not only their energy on the court, but also in points, assists, rebounds, steals, ALL the while playing the SAME amount of minutes as the 'starters'.

Fu Man & Gam -- any insight or answer here?

cjm720
11-03-2011, 10:43 AM
Fu Man & Gam -- any insight or answer here?

I want to play!!!

Ezag
11-03-2011, 10:43 AM
Nope- we're either gonna suck or not!

BobZag
11-03-2011, 10:47 AM
missing the switch off daylight savings time this weekend, causing me to show up about 1.5-2 hours early for all of our home games. Or will I be 1.5-2 hours late. You see what I mean ?

That said, is it spring back and fall ahead ? I think so. Or what ?

I just hope the Zags can carry on, even win a few, without taking on all my worries.

Why don't we just stay on DST? DST is better and it keeps things simple. This pisses me off.

Therunner
11-03-2011, 10:49 AM
I want to play!!!

Of course you can!

cjm, you're insight is more than valued.

I was just challenging those two to provide an answer, even its one word("no") or a short sentence that relates to the actual question.

NEC26
11-03-2011, 10:51 AM
Although I love Rob and everything he brings to the table. I am concerned whether or not he will still have stone hands this year. He seems to lose the ball too easily down low for my liking. Although he will get the foul call some of the time when the refs aren't calling it tight he loses and or doesn't finish the shot because of this many times.
I have already seen this happen against Carrol college a couple times and I was really hoping this was something he would be improved on this year. He just doesn't seem to be able to finish or hold onto that ball for whatever reason and its been that way ever since he has been here.

rennis
11-03-2011, 11:02 AM
I worry about the starting lineup every year. With the exceptions of the 2009, 2004, and 2000 seasons.

:)

Timeout!
11-03-2011, 11:13 AM
OK, maybe "concerned" wasn't the right word above.

How about this --

Can any one offer a reasonable explanation on how our 2nd team players, mostly in the backcourt(PG, SG, SF), have outperformed the 1st unit in both games/situations?

Not only their energy on the court, but also in points, assists, rebounds, steals, ALL the while playing the SAME amount of minutes as the 'starters'.

Fu Man & Gam -- any insight or answer here?

I, too, have felt uncomfortable with the current group of starters. Rob and Elias doing good things down-low, yet only when the 2nd group works hard at getting them the ball and then moving for the kick-out or open shot.

Having said that, they haven't been given a real opportunity to shine yet.

Gary Bell has been a disappointment thus far b/c his nerves clearly get the best of him. He is fast, athletic, strong, but shaky as all get out on the court right now. He will learn to get his mind right and come into his own. He's too talented and physically gifted not to play significant minutes - plus, Coach Few made him a promise.

Marquise is playing a position he's not totally accustomed to at this juncture. He's not quite sure if he's the #1 option in the backcourt or not. He's been the best of the bunch with his steady presence & smart play, BUT the dude has ZERO energy on the court. He plays almost too 'cool for school'. Its not bad and clearly works for him, but tough to force the tempo when you're moving around at a slower "pace" than the rest. I love this style for his game, but it zaps the energy around him.

Stockton, oh, Stockton. Enjoy it while it lasts, imo. Such a great kid, player for his size, and a terrific back-up presence for any point guard at Gonzaga. He's like a band-aid right now. Once the wound heals up and develops some scar tissue, its going to be ripped off. However, when you feel a little self-conscious about that scar or if you injure yourself again, you'll need the band-aid around to help. Catch my drift? Ya know, He'll always be around asking great questions, yet not the answer.

I like our starting group, but don't trust them right now. I get excited for Guy Landry or Hoff to come in, b/c they immediately provide an advantage or mis-match of some kind. I also like when Dower & Harris play together(scoring/versatility), or Spangler & Sacre(strength, toughness, rebounding). Also, the overall energy and tempo seems to pick up when Pangos comes in -- he's either passing to post, moving around the perimeter, or pushing the ball quickly down the court. He has the tighter handle, prettier shot, quicker passer, and bigger player.

The good news is, just as Coach Few has stated, "we are a really deep team this year. Some guys aren't going to play as good as they usually do and some will play better."

While there is no clear-cut starting group, we do have the deepest team we have EVER had. There haven't been many posts on this topic, but if Coach Few felt like he could go 11-deep two seasons ago with Bol, Manny, GJ, Grant Gibbs, Olynyk, et el, then he may try to do it again, b/c we are much better from 1 through 12 than we've been.

This is precisely why we are having this discussion in the first place -- our depth. And that is something to be excited about. When one guy isn't gettin' er done, then the next guy will come in and do it. We are going to run, push, shoot, and get our big-boys involved and trust them to rebound or score. Its going to be fun.

As mentioned above, this could be the kind of year where the starting-5 will look much different by season's end.

Bogozags
11-03-2011, 11:31 AM
missing the switch off daylight savings time this weekend, causing me to show up about 1.5-2 hours early for all of our home games. Or will I be 1.5-2 hours late. You see what I mean ?

That said, is it spring back and fall ahead ? I think so. Or what ?

I just hope the Zags can carry on, even win a few, without taking on all my worries.

Seems to me you have some serious concerns and now you have me thinking the same as I live in AK and so I have an extra hour to be worried about! Am thankful my wife is a high school grad so she can figure all this math out...sheesh

kitzbuel
11-03-2011, 11:35 AM
Why don't we just stay on DST? DST is better and it keeps things simple. This pisses me off.
+1

http://pilotpac.com/images/model-2300qc.jpg

Baldwinzag
11-03-2011, 11:47 AM
Stockton, oh, Stockton. Enjoy it while it lasts, imo. Such a great kid, player for his size, and a terrific back-up presence for any point guard at Gonzaga. He's like a band-aid right now. Once the wound heals up and develops some scar tissue, its going to be ripped off. However, when you feel a little self-conscious about that scar or if you injure yourself again, you'll need the band-aid around to help. Catch my drift? Ya know, He'll always be around asking great questions, yet not the answer.

Huh? :confused:

JPtheBeasta
11-03-2011, 11:54 AM
Why don't we just stay on DST? DST is better and it keeps things simple. This pisses me off.

Sounds like you need to join us enlightened ones in AZ.

FuManShoes
11-03-2011, 11:54 AM
OK, maybe "concerned" wasn't the right word above.

How about this --

Can any one offer a reasonable explanation on how our 2nd team players, mostly in the backcourt(PG, SG, SF), have outperformed the 1st unit in both games/situations?

Not only their energy on the court, but also in points, assists, rebounds, steals, ALL the while playing the SAME amount of minutes as the 'starters'.

Fu Man & Gam -- any insight or answer here?

I think the second squad has greater incentive to play up right now and perhaps the vets are feeling a little too comfortable with their spot in the starting lineup.

JPtheBeasta
11-03-2011, 12:04 PM
Sandbaggers. Our starters are throwing gutter balls right now but when the season starts they will be throwing strikes. Im most concerned about Bell right now, and we need him to quit channeling his inner PMAC asap.

Therunner
11-03-2011, 12:05 PM
I think the second squad has greater incentive to play up right now and perhaps the vets are feeling a little too comfortable with their spot in the starting lineup.

+1

It just seems complacent compared to the 2nd wave, but this isn't uncommon with intense competition amongst spots.

Its a matter of energy and hustle. Right now, the Pangos, Landrys, Spanglers, even Hoffs have the edge. It could change in a hurry, especially when sh!t gets real.

I just hope the first unit picks it up. I like what I've seen from our boys up front, but even their play picked up a notch w/the 'back-ups'.

For instance, Dranginis & Pangos accounted for 12 of 16 assists in same about of mins as Carter & Stockton.

They've looked sharper and even in mistakes, they've found a way to make up for them and/or get others involved when their shots weren't falling.

Colbyspapa
11-03-2011, 12:43 PM
They have practiced together for 1 week, going on two. If they were clicking on all cylinders, I would be thinking we were in for an early tournament exit. That's the pattern over the years, think Wyoming and then Stephan Curry. I much prefer our team to get better every week vs peaking in November/December.

I have very few concerns about this team. They will score a lot. My only real worries are their permimeter defense and how long it will take GBjr to be comfortable in the offense because when the reins are taken off Bell, whoooooaaaa Nelly this team will be good. Teams won't be able to trap or double team anywhere on the floor.

BTW, Carter is going to average 30 minutes a game this year, he played less than 10 against Carrol. There will be more offensive synergy when he is in the flow of the game. This will take pressure off of Stockton/Pangos therefore opening up entry passing lanes. I expect Harris/Sacre combination to average 40ppg and provide a wall down low. I am not worried. I'm excited!

DADoZAG
11-03-2011, 12:48 PM
...Im most concerned about Bell right now, and we need him to quit channeling his inner PMAC asap.

GBJ’s performance will improve. I’m really not “concerned,” and when he does there will be quite a stir in the force. There’s a super nova inside that young man, and staff just needs to climb inside him and rip it away from the black hole of uncertainty.

Isn’t that one definition of “Coach?”

...more with more.

Go ZAGS!

r92238
11-03-2011, 12:59 PM
A lot of things to think about.
Nothing to worry about:)

hondo
11-03-2011, 01:21 PM
If Gonzaga would only agree to pay me 5% of what they pay Mark Few then I would agree to worry. Until that happens, and it may not happen at all, I refuse to worry for free.
Sports teams are like grandchildren all we have to do is enjoy them, someone else has to change the dirty diapers and so on.

gozagswoohoo
11-03-2011, 01:25 PM
The only unit I am worried about this season, is who is gonna be the G-Unit of Eastern Washington game!!

My vote is Sacre, holllllaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!

Zag 77
11-03-2011, 01:50 PM
For heavens sake, a 15 minute "fun" scrimmage and an exhibition game against an NAIA team. Don't worry so much Runner. Let us wait for some real games and see what happens. We pay people good money to work on this stuff.

Baldwinzag
11-03-2011, 01:57 PM
http://deadcowgirl.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/big_chill.gif

Vanzagger
11-03-2011, 02:00 PM
= Brad Childress

GU69
11-03-2011, 02:02 PM
If Gonzaga would only agree to pay me 5% of what they pay Mark Few then I would agree to worry. Until that happens, and it may not happen at all, I refuse to worry for free.

I can be that way now, but I'll admit that in the middle of games I go through a lot of angst for free. In fact, when I look at Mark Few sometimes I think that he is a lot calmer than I am.

bartruff1
11-03-2011, 02:13 PM
If Gonzaga would only agree to pay me 5% of what they pay Mark Few then I would agree to worry. Until that happens, and it may not happen at all, I refuse to worry for free. This... that is why Few gets the big bucks...huuuummmmm 5% might get you to the average household income level...Few must be one of those 1% ers

MDABE80
11-03-2011, 02:22 PM
Why don't we just stay on DST? DST is better and it keeps things simple. This pisses me off.

Yep. Best solution. Later Sun or at least daylight. Much better than enjoying a cold glimmer of sunlight at 6 am....like who needs it then??

maynard g krebs
11-03-2011, 02:23 PM
There's a lot of concern about Bell, and understandably so for those who haven't seen him before. I've seen him in person 8 or 9 times, plus a few comcast game videos in their on demand tapes. My impressions, subjective of course:

In high school, he carried a very limited team to the final 8. Averaging 28+ a game, a lot of times he simply had to take over, which he did in spite of near constant double teams. He got his teammates involved as much as possible, trying to build their confidence. When Kentridge had a big lead, like in the first 2 rounds at state (due to GBJ's 48 combined first half points on 70% or so shooting), he did nothing but pass in the 2nd half to build up his teammates' confidence. In the final, someone reported he was in the G Prep student section, cheerinf for Sarbaugh and co.

What I'm getting at is this. What I see in Gary is a guy who is both supremely talented, and a consummately team oriented guy. He's making a huge psychological adjustment from carrying a team to trying to fit in. As a result, he is looking tentative and unsure of his role, and missing badly on shots he normally buries.

If he plays with the confidence and swagger he did in hs, everybody will see the player CDC said he expects to see have an impact this yr like Daye, Harris, Ammo etc (hope I'm quoting the right names, but CDC posted something like that a few weeks ago).

I've seen about 10 state tourneys in Wa. the last 15 years, and 3 in Or in the Kevin Love/Kyle Singler years when I was back there. Those guys, plus Adam, Rodney Stuckey, Aaron Brooks, Ridnour, Jamal Crawford, and others- GBJ played on that level, especially down the stretch his senior year.

He has a psychological adjustment to make, based on his personality. It's on the staff to push the right buttons to make that happen, and it could take a while. Patience.

I've said before, I want to see him playing alongside Pangos as much as possible, whether on the first or second unit. Maybe some of Pangos' gunslinger attitude would rub off. GBJ just needs to play aggressively on offense. He looks overly concerned with being unselfish to me.

Sorry for the wordy post.

gozagswoohoo
11-03-2011, 02:23 PM
DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TIME IS THE DEVIL.


Pure and simple.

DixieZag
11-03-2011, 02:25 PM
One thing that I am NOT worried about is the progression of Gary Bell Jr. He is a natural, he made his team better in HS and he will do so on this level also. Of course, he will have some growing pains, even Carmelo Anthony did. But he will have a big impact on our season.

IF we really want to worry about something, lets worry about one of our front line veteran leaders getting injured early. Its happened before and, though I am as excited as anyone about our new guys, every team needs leadership from guys that have done it before, guys that can tell the Freshman that playing SCU in Santa Clara will not be easy. That is what I worry about, when I find myself needing to worry about GU BB.

MDABE80
11-03-2011, 02:28 PM
Concern about Gary Bell becaus ehe looked nervous in his first college exhibition game is a bit of a stretch......huge stretch IMO. He's not PMAC........Bells a serious baller . Just nerves...and I suppose every college kid has em in their first game or their first 5 college games. He's not a head case. He's not gonna go "Zack" before he has a season under his belt.

The kid has the goods.

Tmac5360
11-03-2011, 02:53 PM
Question? How the hell does anyone know who the starters are? Did they play a regular season game and I missed it?

75Zag
11-03-2011, 02:55 PM
I care a lot less about who is on the "starting unit" as long as we have one. Five starters and a maximum of 3 guys off the bench is what I want to see. Absent an injury or a 30 point blow out, I want to see the hind ends of the other players super glued to the bench. If an 8 player rotation is good enough for Duke or KY or UConn or Kansas or Ohio State, it is good enough for GU.

Go Bulldogs! Get Bigger!

Malastein
11-03-2011, 02:56 PM
This... that is why Few gets the big bucks...huuuummmmm 5% might get you to the average household income level...Few must be one of those 1% ers

Occupy K2!!!

Seriously though, is it possible that coach Few has them running vanilla sets so that some of the big fish coming up don't see too much?

cjm720
11-03-2011, 03:05 PM
One thing that I am NOT worried about is the progression of Gary Bell Jr. He is a natural, he made his team better in HS and he will do so on this level also. Of course, he will have some growing pains, even Carmelo Anthony did. But he will have a big impact on our season.


Yep.

cjm720
11-03-2011, 03:05 PM
I care a lot less about who is on the "starting unit" as long as we have one. Five starters and a maximum of 3 guys off the bench is what I want to see. Absent an injury or a 30 point blow out, I want to see the hind ends of the other players super glued to the bench. If an 8 player rotation is good enough for Duke or KY or UConn or Kansas or Ohio State, it is good enough for GU.

Go Bulldogs! Get Bigger!

Won't happen until January or February

Baseline
11-03-2011, 03:32 PM
If the guys start slow, I wonder if we could start the games a little later. I think that would fix things.

04ZagFan
11-03-2011, 04:06 PM
Do we even have a starting 5 yet? Elias, Rob, and Marquise.. I dunno if the other 2 spots are set in stone..

Few was subbing 5 guys at a time the other night.. You won't see that in real games. I expect the rotation to be smaller, and the best players will play A LOT more. Things will settle down and look more "usual" once the games count.. Marquise, Rob, and Elias will play a lot of minutes.. Our 3 known commodities. Because of that, we will be able to "hide" the newbies and their inevitable short comings.

MickMick
11-03-2011, 04:24 PM
Marquise, Rob, and Elias will play a lot of minutes.. Our 3 known commodities. Because of that, we will be able to "hide" the newbies and their inevitable short comings.

Hide the newbies?

You got it backwards. The newbies will be "hiding" everyone else and their "inevitable shortcomings".

Hasn't the scrimmage and exhibition taught you that?


To answer the topic, no. I am not concerned about our newbies. They will play like a starting unit.

zag buddy
11-03-2011, 04:27 PM
In regards to Gary Bell's play. some players are quicker than others to learn a brand new system . Carter was not fast to learn and be cofortable but he was through. When he was finally comfortable he came out with a bang. Gary is exactly the same way. Give him time and watch in amazment.

kitzbuel
11-03-2011, 04:32 PM
Wow. This is schizophrenic.



Has anyone seen Bowser lately?

JPtheBeasta
11-03-2011, 04:39 PM
Sorry for the wordy post.

Not wordy when they are all worth reading. Thanks for the insight.

If he is a cerebral guy like you say it would explain a lot so far. Trying to balance not overstepping your boundaries and being aggresive enough to help the team (and ultimately keeping Coach happy enough to keep you in the game) has to be hard as a freshman. I hope he realizes his team needs him to be assertive out there, though.

Reborn
11-03-2011, 04:42 PM
This is really one crazy thread, and Im so surprised by how many responded to it. No one knows who the "first team" is yet; so how can we say anything about them. To see so many posters criticize Gary Bell this early in the season is just plain rediculous. For anyone to criticize anyone this early in the season says one thing to me, there are a lot of negative people on this board who are not happy unless they can spew out negative ideas on this board. How can people be so negative before the season has started. This same thing happened after the "practice game" with Carrol College. People who post here couldn't wait to criticize Kevin Pangos for "gunning." And yes, as one intelligent poster said, Kevin was 3-6 from beyong the arc when the game really counted. The Zags blew out Carrol College by much more than I expected, yet there were those fans who could not be satisfied until they tore someone down.

There is not going to be a "starting 5" until December in my opinion, and I believe it will be in the later part of December. Also if you've followed Gonzaga Basketball since Mark Few has been at the helm, you should know that who starts and who doesn't is irrelevant to him.

I don't mind fans criticizing the Zags or Mark Few. I certainly do. There will plenty of time for the that people. But to criticize when there isn't anything to criticize is irrational to me. There is a forum for that, and I honestly wish that some of the things being posted on this forum would take your ideas over there where it IS appropriate.

maynard g krebs
11-03-2011, 05:24 PM
Not wordy when they are all worth reading. Thanks for the insight.

If he is a cerebral guy like you say it would explain a lot so far. Trying to balance not overstepping your boundaries and being aggresive enough to help the team (and ultimately keeping Coach happy enough to keep you in the game) has to be hard as a freshman. I hope he realizes his team needs him to be assertive out there, though.

Thanks. Pure speculation and extrapolation from what it looks like to me, though, nothing more. Could be as simple as nerves, like others say.