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jazzdelmar
10-29-2011, 10:56 AM
who was the last gu recruit to improve dramatically over his time in the program? daye? pargo? maybe. anyone?

Larryzag
10-29-2011, 10:57 AM
Sacre

jazzdelmar
10-29-2011, 11:05 AM
Sacre

he has improved slightly each year. im talking about a player who has "popped," like ammo did, tho there was only one ammo. bouldin? naa. gray, meech, harris? uh-uh.

BULLDOG#1
10-29-2011, 11:10 AM
Ammo for sure. became POY.
Sacre and Pargo, too. They both made huge strides.

How about the improvment Carter showed in one year?

jazzdelmar
10-29-2011, 11:26 AM
Ammo for sure. became POY.
Sacre and Pargo, too. They both made huge strides.

How about the improvment Carter showed in one year?


we have just seen one year of carter. he couldnt do anything but improve over the first half of last year.

point is, for the zags to break the "16" they need 2 or 3 players to pop this year. not to nba level necessarily, but to have a quantum leap. could be the frosh too......otherwise an awful lot of very talented kids but nothing special in march, imo.

04ZagFan
10-29-2011, 11:32 AM
OP is right. For some reason, this program hasn't seen a player improve a ton from year to year in a while. Strange. Not good.

RenoZag
10-29-2011, 11:55 AM
What's your point, jazz ?

zagfan24
10-29-2011, 11:58 AM
we have just seen one year of carter. he couldnt do anything but improve over the first half of last year.

point is, for the zags to break the "16" they need 2 or 3 players to pop this year. not to nba level necessarily, but to have a quantum leap. could be the frosh too......otherwise an awful lot of very talented kids but nothing special in march, imo.

No offense intended, but I don't get your reasoning here Jazz. Steady improvement isn't what you were looking for...but either is a player going from fair to very good (i.e., Carter).

So, it seems like you want a player to go from good to great or very good to elite. The base rates for that happening are pretty low, and given GU's propensity for having four-year players, I think gradual improvement will be the majority of what we see.

One player might "pop" this year...but asking for 2-3 players is unrealistic, IMO. I would argue that, because we (that is, Gonzaga fans) watch the Zags so closely, what might seem like a "pop" to others looks more like a gradual change to us...akin to the boiling frog metaphor.

jazzdelmar
10-29-2011, 11:59 AM
What's your point, jazz ?



point is, for the zags to break the "16" they need 2 or 3 players to pop this year. not to nba level necessarily, but to have a quantum leap. could be the frosh too......otherwise an awful lot of very talented kids but nothing special in march, imo.

jazzdelmar
10-29-2011, 12:00 PM
No offense intended, but I don't get your reasoning here Jazz. Steady improvement isn't what you were looking for...but either is a player going from fair to very good (i.e., Carter).

So, it seems like you want a player to go from good to great or very good to elite. The base rates for that happening are pretty low, and given GU's propensity for having four-year players, I think gradual improvement will be the majority of what we see.

One player might "pop" this year...but asking for 2-3 players is unrealistic, IMO. I would argue that, because we (that is, Gonzaga fans) watch the Zags so closely, what might seem like a "pop" to others looks more like a gradual change to us...akin to the boiling frog metaphor.




zf-u make many good pts. and yes i am hoping for a morrissonian "pop." call me a polly.

JPtheBeasta
10-29-2011, 12:37 PM
Of the newbies, I think Pangos has supreme confidence in his game, so I see the biggest chance for him. Watching him last night reminded me of Ammo and his lack of fear on the bigger stage. Harris, with his down year last year, really has a chance to "pop" with his improved health and conditioning. Dower could make a huge impact this year if can get on the court more.

My dark horse candidate: Da Hoff. He drained a 3 with someone in his mug last night and if he keeps an aggressive trigger, and develops an iota of game going to the basket, he could be a big lift and win us a couple of games this year.

maynard g krebs
10-29-2011, 12:52 PM
Only big difference with Adam was that he went from about a 30% shooter fr-so yrs to 44% as a jr, forcing people to guard him tighter and opening up the rest of his game. Other than that, he was pretty much the same player I saw when he set the scoring record in the Wa. state tourney in hs, where he was MD AA caliber his sr yr, just didn't have the reputation to get it. (29 ppg, carried a bunch of YMCA caliber kids to a state final). Basically did the same things, just normal growth with age except for the shooting improvement. If Adam popped, he did it as a hs senior.

In terms of skill set, especially post moves, ft% and defense, I'd argue Sacre has improved more than Adam over the course of his GU career. Sacre came in big, raw, and unskilled; Adam came in as an elite scoring talent.

Only guys I can think of who fit the criteria are Calvary, and maybe Frahm and Hall.

TheBunnieRancher
10-29-2011, 08:08 PM
We have a talented bunch of supporting role players. If they were at Duke, North Carolina, et cetera that's the role our top players would fill. We do not have any lottery picks that can take it up a notch and dominate a game a la Morrison or Jimmer Fredette or Kemba Walker. Without those kind of players, we must play a masterful team game like Butler to make it out of the sweet 16. We may have a candidate or two on this team who can rise up to that level like Harris if he commits to play all out all the time. I would like to hear who the other candidates would be from the rest of you. While we aren't the talent evaluators like our coaching staff, I do enjoy the insights I glean from the rest of you. :clap:

willandi
10-29-2011, 08:46 PM
How about Andy Poling? Went from a top GU recruit to a starter on a team that beat Arizona! How about Meech? He holds the modern day record for return yardage, in a D1 football game, by a high GU recruit!
Tough to see where you are heading here. If Harris has the kind of year we expected him to have last year, does that count? or is the fact that it is a year late make it not count? I agree that Sacre has improved incrementally every year. Is that a "pop"? If Dower has a right hand shot, does that count? If ANY of our frosh have a great season, does THAT count? There is no standard with which to judge them, so how can they "pop"? If pangos averages a double/double, with nothing to judge them by, how can that count?
You get my drift.

MickMick
10-29-2011, 08:58 PM
We have a talented bunch of supporting role players. If they were at Duke, North Carolina, et cetera that's the role our top players would fill. We do not have any lottery picks that can take it up a notch and dominate a game a la Morrison or Jimmer Fredette or Kemba Walker. Without those kind of players, we must play a masterful team game like Butler to make it out of the sweet 16. We may have a candidate or two on this team who can rise up to that level like Harris if he commits to play all out all the time. I would like to hear who the other candidates would be from the rest of you. While we aren't the talent evaluators like our coaching staff, I do enjoy the insights I glean from the rest of you. :clap:

Crazy as it seems, I'll nominate Dranginis.

He has length, handles, and can score. I think his ceiling is very high. He is every bit as good of an athlete as Morrison was. The only question is if he has Morrison's fire. If I had to pick a player that could make a "pop", that would be the guy. One of those guys that takes a giant sophomore leap and really comes into his own as a junior.


The Zags are due for another big time player.

surfmonkey89
10-29-2011, 09:03 PM
What's your point, jazz ?

You're new here, aren't you.

GrizZAG
10-29-2011, 09:25 PM
I'm looking for a "Well Oiled Machine" with all the moving parts working the way they are supposed to. Any of several of this group is very capable of having a break out night or many. When the guards fire those passes on the button we need recievers to execute with precision.
I look for Harris, Dower and Pangos to blow up this year with big nights coming from many others.

The Optimist! Game on!!

04ZagFan
10-29-2011, 10:25 PM
How about Andy Poling? Went from a top GU recruit to a starter on a team that beat Arizona! How about Meech? He holds the modern day record for return yardage, in a D1 football game, by a high GU recruit!
Tough to see where you are heading here. If Harris has the kind of year we expected him to have last year, does that count? or is the fact that it is a year late make it not count? I agree that Sacre has improved incrementally every year. Is that a "pop"? If Dower has a right hand shot, does that count? If ANY of our frosh have a great season, does THAT count? There is no standard with which to judge them, so how can they "pop"? If pangos averages a double/double, with nothing to judge them by, how can that count?
You get my drift.

I really, really, really don't understand the post.....

What do two transfers, one of whom isn't even playing basketball anymore, have to do with player improvement at Gonzaga?

OP still has a very valid point. We haven't seen the year to year improvement most good programs get... In fact, I could name you several of players who might have actually regressed.

krozman
10-30-2011, 02:17 AM
How about Meech? He holds the modern day record for return yardage, in a D1 football game, by a high GU recruit!
.

Meech leaving paves the way for a real point guard to play at Gonzaga again, and I think the "improvement" of many players will be completely dependant on our point guard play this year.

kitzbuel
10-30-2011, 03:55 AM
No offense intended, but I don't get your reasoning here Jazz. Steady improvement isn't what you were looking for...but either is a player going from fair to very good (i.e., Carter).

So, it seems like you want a player to go from good to great or very good to elite. The base rates for that happening are pretty low, and given GU's propensity for having four-year players, I think gradual improvement will be the majority of what we see.

One player might "pop" this year...but asking for 2-3 players is unrealistic, IMO. I would argue that, because we (that is, Gonzaga fans) watch the Zags so closely, what might seem like a "pop" to others looks more like a gradual change to us...akin to the boiling frog metaphor.

Yup

willandi
10-30-2011, 08:16 AM
Only big difference with Adam was that he went from about a 30% shooter fr-so yrs to 44% as a jr, forcing people to guard him tighter and opening up the rest of his game. Other than that, he was pretty much the same player I saw when he set the scoring record in the Wa. state tourney in hs, where he was MD AA caliber his sr yr, just didn't have the reputation to get it. (29 ppg, carried a bunch of YMCA caliber kids to a state final). Basically did the same things, just normal growth with age except for the shooting improvement. If Adam popped, he did it as a hs senior.

In terms of skill set, especially post moves, ft% and defense, I'd argue Sacre has improved more than Adam over the course of his GU career. Sacre came in big, raw, and unskilled; Adam came in as an elite scoring talent.

Only guys I can think of who fit the criteria are Calvary, and maybe Frahm and Hall.

I pretty much agree with this, and it makes somewhat the same point as my nonsensical previous post. The best Zag scorer, at least in recent years, Ammo, didn't 'pop'. He just started shooting at a slightly better rate, and the defensive reactions allowed him even more freedom to score.
So, with no baseline to measure, one-and-done players are automatically excluded from being able to 'pop'. Sustained, incremental improvements, over the course of a carreer have also been excluded. A star player in high school, shirting or not playing bacause of an existing star player on the roster should also be excluded, because expectations are that given the chance, they will perform as expected. So to 'pop', what we need is a player that rides the bench, or is a spot player at best, that suddenly becomes a 20+ ppg scorer, or a double-double machine, one that is also probably a walk-on, because if they were on a schollie, there would be expectations based on past (HS) performance.
So using that as the basis, a walk-on, just OK high school player, with no significant playing time on his college team, in his second, third or fourth year of playing, suddenly develops into a national leader in scoring, rebounds or assists, or a double-double machine, NAME ONE IN THE HISTORY OF COLLEGE BALL!!!! Or quit with all the excusions.

SunDevilGolfZag
10-30-2011, 08:24 AM
who was the last gu recruit to improve dramatically over his time in the program? daye? pargo? maybe. anyone?

Richie Frahm. Skinny kid who redshirted his way to the Elite 8 and the NBA

jazzdelmar
10-30-2011, 09:28 AM
Richie Frahm. Skinny kid who redshirted his way to the Elite 8 and the NBA

finally. a simple answer to a simple question. thanks.

Baldwinzag
10-30-2011, 09:41 AM
Cory Violette.

From "chunk" to "chisel" over his 4 yrs.

Frosh stats: 11mpg, 3ppg, 3rpg

Senior stats: 30mpg, 14ppg, 8rpg

His mins, points, rebounds, & shooting % improved in EVERY single season.

Cory was the epitome of a 'rags to riches' type player at Gonzaga.

We can only hope Spangler, or any player for that matter, improves at the same rate as Violette did during his GU career...

tobizag
10-30-2011, 10:46 AM
One player might "pop" this year...but asking for 2-3 players is unrealistic, IMO.

the OP said that we needed 2-3 to pop IF we wanted to get past the S16. he didn't say if 2-3 don't pop we'll suck. i think you and the jazz agree, and jazz's point would be that this lack of pop on the part of gu players over the last decade is what has prevented us from making our first F4, or cracking the E8 again.

jazzdelmar
10-30-2011, 10:57 AM
the OP said that we needed 2-3 to pop IF we wanted to get past the S16. he didn't say if 2-3 don't pop we'll suck. i think you and the jazz agree, and jazz's point would be that this lack of pop on the part of gu players over the last decade is what has prevented us from making our first F4, or cracking the E8 again.

ty ty ty....ur someone who reads rather than just reacts...

zagfan24
10-30-2011, 11:29 AM
the OP said that we needed 2-3 to pop IF we wanted to get past the S16. he didn't say if 2-3 don't pop we'll suck. i think you and the jazz agree, and jazz's point would be that this lack of pop on the part of gu players over the last decade is what has prevented us from making our first F4, or cracking the E8 again.

Well, I agree with Jazz that we haven't had a player "pop" lately. I disagree that we need it from 2-3 players to get past the S16. This isn't just "reacting," it's respectful disagreement. What's the point in asking a question if you are only open to one answer?

Looking at elite eight and final four teams from the past several years, I don't think it's necessary to have several players explode talent-wise. Sure it helps, but we have a lot of guys who spend enough time here to make incremental development enough.

I maintain that it's easy to dismiss how much guys like Raivio, Pargo, Pendo, Bouldin, Sacre, etc. improved over their careers at GU. Batista and Carter even did this after coming in from a JUCO.

If you look at a school like Butler (that has made 2 final fours) from an outside perspective, it might seem like they had several players explode onto the scene. In reality, I would argue they had one "pop" (Hayward) and several guys (Howard, Mack, etc.) improve slowly over their careers.

In the end, it's largely semantics I suppose. All due respect, Jazz.

Larrylegend
10-30-2011, 08:56 PM
Cory Violette.

From "chunk" to "chisel" over his 4 yrs.

Frosh stats: 11mpg, 3ppg, 3rpg

Senior stats: 30mpg, 14ppg, 8rpg

His mins, points, rebounds, & shooting % improved in EVERY single season.

Cory was the epitome of a 'rags to riches' type player at Gonzaga.

We can only hope Spangler, or any player for that matter, improves at the same rate as Violette did during his GU career...

+1
Corey slid out from Casey Calvary's shadow and was a beast his last two years.

I'm hoping Olynyk or Dower make these Coreysque improvements.
If Spangler improves like Corey did we'll have a monster.

maynard g krebs
10-30-2011, 09:00 PM
Cory Violette.

From "chunk" to "chisel" over his 4 yrs.

Frosh stats: 11mpg, 3ppg, 3rpg

Senior stats: 30mpg, 14ppg, 8rpg

His mins, points, rebounds, & shooting % improved in EVERY single season.

Cory was the epitome of a 'rags to riches' type player at Gonzaga.

We can only hope Spangler, or any player for that matter, improves at the same rate as Violette did during his GU career...

Good call. Pretty close to Calvary in terms of improvement.