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View Full Version : Observations from Carroll College Exhibition Game



whatazag
10-28-2011, 06:54 PM
Sacre - did fine, what you'd expect from him against an inferior team
Harris - dominant, pretty much could score at will
Stockton - solid play, but didn't seem to be hitting his shots
Carter - didn't play a lot, but looked pretty good when he was in
Bell - really did not impress, did nothing well, some turnovers, fouls, etc. hopefully just an off game.
Pangos - looked great, but took a lot of shots, especially from outside. Perhaps he should make a little more effort to get it inside before settling.
Monninghoff - His 3 point shot is money as always, but slow to recognize what was going on on both offense and defense
Spangler - looked awesome, had a double double and made almost all of his shots
Dower - looked bad in all aspects really
Hart - did his thing when he got his chance, a nice block plus some points off of rebounds and turnovers
Edi - looked okay, but did not really stand out
Dranginis - looked pretty decent, had some nice moves, a couple mistakes but a couple good plays
Kieta - did not play a lot, but did score when given the opportunity
Sarbaugh - came in in the end, can't say that he really did anything to stand out


Others feel free to add your thoughts, since everyone sees different things when they watch a game.

MickMick
10-28-2011, 06:58 PM
All things considered, I like what I saw from every player.

04ZagFan
10-28-2011, 07:00 PM
Pretty good observations.

Spangler clearly wasn't right at the scrimmage. He's very good. Bell struggled, but hopefully just nerves. Pangos was trigger happy, but also looked very good at times. Not a lot of offense was run tonight, so I suspect he'll be different in real games. Obviously our veterans, Elias, Rob, and Marquis looked great. And Mike Hart definitely has a place on this team. Defense, doesn't make mistakes. Plays within himself 100% of the time. What more do you want?

hooter73
10-28-2011, 07:01 PM
Pangos will get there and quick but he's not there yet. For how highly touted our bigs are I did not see much out of them I liked. Spangler was solid - not flashy, just good. I liked Ryan and Kyle the most in this one. Drag surprised me with versatility.

and the announcer change up was gold... minus heister.

hope the cobwebs come out quick cause its on now.

former1dog
10-28-2011, 07:03 PM
Dranginis had a very solid stat line with 9 points, 6 rebounds and 6 assists. Was the team leader in assists.

Double/Double out of Spangler.

04ZagFan
10-28-2011, 07:04 PM
Pangos will get there and quick but he's not there yet. For how highly touted our bigs are I did not see much out of them I liked. Spangler was solid - not flashy, just good. I liked Ryan and Kyle the most in this one. Drag surprised me with versatility.

and the announcer change up was gold... minus heister.

hope the cobwebs come out quick cause its on now.

Sam missed some easy ones, but he is a proven player, I'm not worried.. Our guards couldn't get the ball inside to save their lives, not the bigs fault.

OK-ZagFan
10-28-2011, 07:04 PM
[QUOTE=04ZagFan;691348]Pretty good observations.

Spangler clearly wasn't right at the scrimmage. He's very good. Bell struggled, but hopefully just nerves. Pangos was trigger happy, but also looked very good at times. Not a lot of offense was run tonight, so I suspect he'll be different in real games. Obviously our veterans, Elias, Rob, and Marquis looked great. And Mike Hart definitely has a place on this team. Defense, doesn't make mistakes. Plays within himself 100% of the time. What more do you want?[/QUOT

HUMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!

awberke
10-28-2011, 07:07 PM
Pangos will get there and quick but he's not there yet. For how highly touted our bigs are I did not see much out of them I liked. Spangler was solid - not flashy, just good. I liked Ryan and Kyle the most in this one. Drag surprised me with versatility.

and the announcer change up was gold... minus heister.

hope the cobwebs come out quick cause its on now.

I agree with every point you made. Heister seemed to be over-zealous. I love the addition of Dickau, smart guy.

I'd like to add that i think Dower was just off, and for Bell, who knows, hopefully just nerves/off game. His defense was good though.

Zag@LMU
10-28-2011, 07:07 PM
We have a lot of young raw talent who played how you would expect them to play in the first game of the season. A very sloppy blowout but this recruiting class could very well be the best ever with time.

jazzdelmar
10-28-2011, 07:07 PM
biggest surprises:

up: drang and spang

down: bell (sure doesnt look like a dominant player and not like a pt guard)

pangos b plus

all others incomplete.....

tlark420
10-28-2011, 07:07 PM
would have liked to see more from bell otherwise i thought it was an overall positive game for everyone
dont mind pangos gettin his shots up now as long as hes more selective when it counts..i think it it will pay off with his comfort down the line

GU69
10-28-2011, 07:10 PM
Our guards couldn't get the ball inside to save their lives, not the bigs fault.

I didn't watch all of the game, but this is what was going on during the times I was watching. Hopefully that will change.

Does anybody have a box score? ESPN and YahooSports don't seem to carry box scores of these exhibition games.

Birddog
10-28-2011, 07:10 PM
For a guy that's really only 6'6" and kinda slow, that Spangler kid sure played taller and faster.

I thought it was refreshing overall, lots to like. Clearly room for improvement, but mucho potential on the floor for most of the game.

maynard g krebs
10-28-2011, 07:12 PM
Bell looked hesitant/tentative to me, like he's overthinking the game trying to do what the coaches want. He missed badly on a couple of open 3's that he'd normally make. There's been talk that coaches are trying to get him to shoot w/ more arc, which may be an issue too. He's much better than he showed tonight; patience.

Pangos shot a lot, true, but almost all were open and on balance. And several were on return passes after he had made a good pass and was left open when his man went to help. Once, Fox wrongly criticized him for a wide open 3 that missed, and Dickau challenged Fox, defending Pangos. The pg (all the guards, really) needs to shoot it every time they're left open to open up the inside.

Spangler is already the best rebounder on the team.

GU69
10-28-2011, 07:13 PM
and the announcer change up was gold...

yes!!!!

northsidezagfan
10-28-2011, 07:13 PM
http://www.gozags.com/newLiveStats/Basketball/index.dbml?GAME_STAT_ID=577709&db_oem_id=26400

gamagin
10-28-2011, 07:15 PM
Hart had outstanding games.

RS turned in a solid game and DS, Pangos and Dranginis had flashes of brilliance while MM shot really well but is still struggling to get set on defense.

Sam worked hard to get someone to pass to him inside, but few were willing. His usual quick turnaround, as a result, was on hold and so was he.

Most of the play making involved getting the ball to RS when he was in. He looked good with his turnarounds. Otherwise the weave generally worked the ball around so the guards, MM or MC/Keita/edi could take a shot.

WHich they did. Pangos was about 3-12 and DS got only a few points. Pangos started out hot but tapered off. DS had the shots and took them but they wouldn't drop.

But the highlight for me this game was watching Spangler, who simply does it all. Quietly and very effectively. He and Hart were a tandem underneath and thoroughly dominated the boards at both ends in the second half. I don't remember seeing Hart in the first half.

I really liked watching them. More than anyone oout there tonight. They were on the ball, taking the ball, passing the ball or improving everyone around them every second they were in the game. Spangler is very comfortable finishing, too. Like this kid alot.

MickMick
10-28-2011, 07:15 PM
For this season, be prepared for the worst case of "flavor of the week" commentary you have ever seen on this board.

Many petty arguments over who should get minutes when in reality, the Zags are fielding a fine lineup no matter who they put out there.

Like arguing who is the prettiest movie star or who is the greatest guitarist. There comes a threshold when they are all good or all pretty and it comes down to a matter of personal preference.

john montana
10-28-2011, 07:15 PM
I was surprised by dranginis. He looked much more ready than I thought he would.

maynard g krebs
10-28-2011, 07:18 PM
As of now, the box score shows a total of 56 pts for GU, in 120 player min, and Spangler didn't play.

bartruff1
10-28-2011, 07:20 PM
Amazing athlete....so strong and explosive....needs to have the ball...won't get it as much as he wants...will have to do other things to reach his potential..

Baseline
10-28-2011, 07:20 PM
Spangler played like what I expected from him, he will shake things up!

Dranginis was my biggest surprise. Looks like he can shoot from center field, but what was most impressive was the way he put the ball on the floor and drove the basket. I thought he may be to skinny and take some time, but he surprised tonight.

Hart, has heart!

Liked Pangos leadership. Was vocal, not bad for a first game.

jimmy b
10-28-2011, 07:20 PM
yes!!!!

despite spotty internet, the biggest upgrade at any position tonight was with DD and Fox.

Looking forward to their expertise on the TV broadcasts.

OK-ZagFan
10-28-2011, 07:20 PM
For a guy that's really only 6'6" and kinda slow, that Spangler kid sure played taller and faster.

I thought it was refreshing overall, lots to like. Clearly room for improvement, but mucho potential on the floor for most of the game.

Birddog, Thanks, I think you and I are the only ones that has seen Spangler play - I think now they will know what he brings to the table.

bartruff1
10-28-2011, 07:25 PM
Birddog, Thanks, I think you and I are the only ones that has seen Spangler play - I think now they will know what he brings to the table......you were soooooooo right....seems like he is always in the right place, plays within himself (doesn't force anything) ....how the hell did we ever get him...lucky us..

OK-ZagFan
10-28-2011, 07:33 PM
.....you were soooooooo right....seems like he is always in the right place, plays within himself (doesn't force anything) ....how the hell did we ever get him...lucky us..


Thanks bartruff1, we have watched this young man play and he is so respected that every town in Oklahoma wants to claim him. I have been here thru alot of players that has come out of Oklahoma, including Blake Griffin, and never have seen this much hype for one individual. He will become a very special player for Gonzaga and again Thanks for your reporting.

bigblahla
10-28-2011, 07:48 PM
Spangler did exactly what was expected from him, his legs looked fresh tonight.

Serious re-bounder and a nose for the ball, great positioning for both offensive and defensive boards. 10 points - 11 boards, played good "D". What a great start to his career at GU.

Dranginis was equally as impressive in his own right.

We are blessed Zaggies.

Just my opinion.

Go!! Zags!!!

Fonebone
10-28-2011, 07:51 PM
I don't know that Pangos took too many shots. could be that the coaches said "If your wide open, shoot." As was said above, many of his shots came after he had passed off.

Frankly my reaction was, "thank God." If he keeps doing that and hits a decent percentage, which he should, no team is going to just come down on defence and settle into the middle. The are going to have to stay out on defence, and our bigs are really going to like that. His approach seemed to be "if you leave me open I'm gonna shoot it."

northsidezagfan
10-28-2011, 07:56 PM
I don't know that Pangos took too many shots. could be that the coaches said "If your wide open, shoot." As was said above, many of his shots came after he had passed off.

Frankly my reaction was, "thank God." If he keeps doing that and hits a decent percentage, which he should, no team is going to just come down on defence and settle into the middle. The are going to have to stay out on defence, and our bigs are really going to like that. His approach seemed to be "if you leave me open I'm gonna shoot it."
+1 last year we were complaining about guards that wouldn't shoot it. I'd much rather have it this way. Bigs still did plenty of damage inside and it opened up the dribble drive too.

RenoZag
10-28-2011, 07:56 PM
GoZags.com Box Score (http://www.gozags.com/ViewContent.dbml?CONTENT_ID=169344&DB_OEM_ID=26400#GAME.BOX)

Pangos was 4 - 12 from the field

3XaZag
10-28-2011, 08:01 PM
First post in two years but addicted daily lurker....

MickMick is right .... we will see a parade of players of the game...my guess is at least 7 and that will be before WCC play....maybe more if we get some blowouts...

This will be a good thing as the newbies gain experience and confidence....

...And big thanks for the stream...not sure whose we used as my son hooked it up. First time our family has ever hooked up the internet to the new 42"....it worked great !!!

hooter73
10-28-2011, 08:03 PM
While I didnt like Pangos play tonight in his defense more than a couple of his attempts went in and came back out. hes the best 3pt shooter on the team right now and he was open. Got to take those.

I liked our pressure D, just need to get the offense to run - meaning smooth it out and fast breaks/transitions

ZagNative
10-28-2011, 08:04 PM
That game was just fun to watch. Bball season is underway, and I couldn't be happier.

Spangler is going to be fun! Better not redshirt!

snebzag
10-28-2011, 08:05 PM
Still only an NAIA opponent. Don' t really know what to think about any of them yet. Without a true test you can not be sure. True test start Nov. 11th and get harder each week. This team is loaded. Loaded. This could be a special year.
As far as Mick-Mick goes, Prettiest movie star. Easy. Val Kilmer. (the skinny version) Ice Man.

RenoZag
10-28-2011, 08:06 PM
For this season, be prepared for the worst case of "flavor of the week" commentary you have ever seen on this board.

Many petty arguments over who should get minutes when in reality, the Zags are fielding a fine lineup no matter who they put out there.

Like arguing who is the prettiest movie star or who is the greatest guitarist. There comes a threshold when they are all good or all pretty and it comes down to a matter of personal preference.

:000tens:

Lurknomore
10-28-2011, 08:09 PM
Spangler was really good constantly poking and hustliing. He impressed me the most. I think we found our point guard Pangos looked very comfortable and it was nice to see him take some shots. Future looks very bright.

TheZagPhish
10-28-2011, 08:10 PM
I really like this team.

CDC84
10-28-2011, 08:15 PM
Spangler is already the best rebounder on the team.

I said this the moment he stepped foot on campus. He has a knack for it that other big men in the program don't possess.

I expect the guard play to get better in the coming weeks. Few has made it clear that this is an inside out team, and the guards will act accordingly. It's just that the guards might be able to knock down some shots to balance things out this year. We'll see.

Voice4Vision
10-28-2011, 08:20 PM
If you don't mind...all though I have been viewing this board for several years, with nothing ever to say...I would like to post my viewpoint.

I believe with the lack of a game plan or drawn out plays this game was more about developing trust and expectations of one another. With that said...

SACRE: Impressive as always, however rarely had the opportunity I had hoped. Made smart decisions with his shot selection, but seems to lack the will to challenge at times. With his strength and height advantage, he should have been more aggressive.

CARTER: He managed to score 6 points and grab a single rebound in 10 minutes, however simply was unimpressive. I suspect that maybe he is a player that relies on expectations, team play not individual play.

BELL: I believe that nerves got to him, and with each mistake/miss he simply became less confident. It also seemed as if Bell was looking for something to develop. My best guess is maybe Bell is a reactionary type player.

STOCKTON: His shot was terrible today but the great thing about him is his unselfishness and knowledge of Few's system. He might not score big, but he knows how to find his players. Slow on defense, and easily passed.

HARRIS: This guy is about to establish his legacy as a Zag this year. He has more bounce, more aggression, and more hair. Both his offense and defense were dramatic performances. His play are what I would call "momentum swings".

DRANGINIS: Played with unselfish aggression all the while looking for a weakness in the opposing defense. Played with confidence and comfort.

PANGOS: Played selfishly, but seemed to play with alot of energy. Appeared to outrun the play, not waiting for things to develop.

LANDRY: Lots of will and hustle, but nothing to seriously gleam over. Knowledge of the system will help.

SARBAUGH: In 4 minutes of play he quickly managed 2 assists and a rebound, but not attempting a shot. Seemed promising, grounded, and comfortable.

SPANGLER: WOW!!! I think we might have a gem here. Was impressive at everything. Was everywhere...out hustling everyone. In 20 minutes, he managed 10 points - 11 rebounds - 1 assist - 2 steals - 2 blocks.

MOENINGHOFF: He was on target tonight. But at times he seems to struggle with finding his position both on offense and defense.

KEITA: 7 points in 7 minutes. Seemed almost desperate to display he worth. But unlike last year, he delivered. Aggressive on both sides. But I continue to get a feeling that he plays by himself.

HART: Should be called HEART. This guy is 100% TEAM. Everything he does seems to be the right thing. Aggressive and confident. The most team oriented player with the most balanced abilities.

DOWER: Seemed to lack will at the start. But once getting comfortable with the game and speed, he started to be more aggressive and comfortable. Hard to tell if any development over the season.

I would like to give KUDOS to the Carroll College. Very good sportsmanship. They played hard and confidently. Very team oriented and mature. They never appeared to give up nor did any player try to become the hero. This team deserves recognition.

My two cents,
Voice4Vision

TwoCatsOne
10-28-2011, 08:43 PM
If you don't mind...all though I have been viewing this board for several years, with nothing ever to say...I would like to post my viewpoint.



Very nice analysis of the game, Voice4Vision. Please continue posting.

Baldwinzag
10-28-2011, 08:48 PM
I said this the moment he stepped foot on campus. He has a knack for it that other big men in the program don't possess.

It was obvious. Palpable. Refreshing. We haven't seen a player "go & get" every single rebound since, well, Violette...he values every touch of the ball.

Even when Ryan Spangler was alone, the way he grabbed the rebound with conviction was impressive. There was one play were he literally grabbed the defensive rebound out of the air from an awaiting Sacre. Rob was waiting for the ball to come to him, Spangler went and got it...its like the difference b/w a good receiver in football and a great one...the great ones catch the ball with their hands and jump up towards the ball instead of catching it with their body.

Spangler goes up and secures the ball with his hands. Our impressive bigs await the board or watch the bounce, Ryan ANTICIPATES the bounce...its a subtle difference but obvious...

He rec the 2nd most mins on the team for a reason.

northsidezagfan
10-28-2011, 08:49 PM
Good to see Harris is back to his high-flying self. Didn't need to shoot any 3s today and got to the rack at will. 9 boards too which has been overlooked with how well Spangler played. Love Dranginis's game too he can do a bit of everything. Highlight of the night is keeping everything consolidated to one thread though.

zagzilla
10-28-2011, 08:49 PM
Can't draw a lot of conclusions about the team from a game like this but I would have liked to see our three PG's shoot better than 4-20. That's a lot of offense to soak up for 8 points

Harris and Sacre look awesome.

Spangler was a nice surprise.

Probably the last we're going to see of Sarbaugh and Dranginis for the season

ZZ

MDABE80
10-28-2011, 08:53 PM
They'r enot used to playing with each other. BUT that'll resolve as the season progresses.
Kevin had a few in and outers that usually drop. It happens. He looked pretty solid running the team though.
Spangler is as advertised. He'll imporve and will be looked to as a constant high perfomer by January.
Bell? Who happpened? Who knows. One thing though, he has all the talent one could find for a new D1 guard. He'll be fine.

David? Ewwww......on defense. Didn't get outsmarted just didn't move his feet well.

Elias..weight loss hows.

Sarbaugh...good lookin kid...just no minutes.
Edi looked fine. he'll get batter. Nice up in the air though.

Dranginis surprised me most. Did everything well...I thought he should redshirt but I'm not so sure now.

Good effort. Sloppy game without much defense.

Hart continues to look better and better. So much better each year. He'll be getting more looks before the season begins. He should. He's a very good player. A "no name" from HS but big, strong, hustles and plays dogged defense. Offense looks to be much better as well.

2 weeks till we tee this regular season up. I like this team. No disappointments...they just need some time. 6 new faces. ...5 of which might get considerable time.

EuroZag2010
10-28-2011, 09:03 PM
Dower - looked bad in all aspects really
I disagree

Baldwinzag
10-28-2011, 09:05 PM
Dranginis surprised me most. Did everything well...I thought he should redshirt but I'm not so sure now.

I also thought he was a given, yet as I posted earlier today, not so fast my friends. The way Coach Few gushed over his skills during WCC Media Day made me take notice. Coach gives us so little but the way he talked about Elias, Gary Bell, Spangler, & Dranginis forced me to reconsider my previous notions/opinions about the team. Literally, the only Frosh guard he elected to elaborate on was Kyle, the only big he 'advertised' was Spangler, and gave a single shout-out to Gary Bell. KD averaged 25 ppg, 9 rpg, 5 apg, 4 bpg in Idaho and his versatility and all-around game shows itself, same goes for Spangler. Gary Bell will be fine, but from the scrimmage to this game, he is easily the most affected by nerves. Coach Few confirmed this in post-game interviews. Gary Bell is the most jittery of all the players. It will calm after the first few games and he'll come into his own...gotta think he Coaches are starting him for good cause.

hooter73
10-28-2011, 09:07 PM
Highlight of the night is keeping everything consolidated to one thread though.

LMAO

I saw Harris getting rebounds but didnt realize he pulled in 9. Nice. I think everyone thought Kyle was a redshirt lock... until tonight. Yep got to get the guards and Guy comfortable then the bigs can settle in and we are going to see some fun. Glad our next game isnt against a huge opponent though.

ExtremeJim
10-28-2011, 09:15 PM
For a guy that's really only 6'6" and kinda slow, that Spangler kid sure played taller and faster.

I have no idea what the distance from the floor to the top of his head might be, and I don't care, since he's not a soccer player.

I did notice, though, that in the huddle, when he stood next to Sacre, the tops of both of their shoulders are approximately the same distance off the floor.

A few of you could remember Gary Lechman, Zag center from the mid-'60's. That's who Ryan Spangler reminds me of, though he is about 4 inches taller than Lechman was (6'5" on the program, but really only 6'3".) Broad shoulders, straight on top like James Caan or Kevin McHale, not sloped like Sacre or Schwarzenegger. So he's going to play about 4 inches taller than his head-to-foot height, whatever that might be, just as longer-necked, low-shoulders guys on the roster (Sacre and Olynyk) are constantly disappointing some of you by playing under their height ("How can a seven-footer NOT get 10 boards a game?!" Well, by floor-to-shoulder height, they're only equivalent to 6'9" or 6'10", that's why.)

Spangler is a keeper.

gamagin
10-28-2011, 09:30 PM
I have no idea what the distance from the floor to the top of his head might be, and I don't care, since he's not a soccer player.

I did notice, though, that in the huddle, when he stood next to Sacre, the tops of both of their shoulders are approximately the same distance off the floor.

A few of you could remember Gary Lechman, Zag center from the mid-'60's. That's who Ryan Spangler reminds me of, though he is about 4 inches taller than Lechman was (6'5" on the program, but really only 6'3".) Broad shoulders, straight on top like James Caan or Kevin McHale, not sloped like Sacre or Schwarzenegger. So he's going to play about 4 inches taller than his head-to-foot height, whatever that might be, just as longer-necked, low-shoulders guys on the roster (Sacre and Olynyk) are constantly disappointing some of you by playing under their height ("How can a seven-footer NOT get 10 boards a game?!" Well, by floor-to-shoulder height, they're only equivalent to 6'9" or 6'10", that's why.) Spangler is a keeper.

He DOES have an unusual body and it DOES work really well and looks exactly like those you describe and he uses it to great advantage.

thanks for the insight.

BULLDOG#1
10-28-2011, 09:31 PM
Well, I gotta admit okzagfan, spangler looked pretty impressive. He is bigger than I thought and though he's not as quick as you've said, he sure does have a knack for the ball. If he doesn't get the red shirt, then it will be interesting watching him go against d hall and the cougs.

TheGonzagaFactor
10-28-2011, 09:40 PM
I liked most of what I saw, but I didn't like our means of getting the ball to Rob and Elias in the paint. It seemed like we just cleared everyone out and lobbed the ball in, so that whenever the post got the ball they were already double or triple teamed. That's all I could pick out that I didn't like.

Mantua
10-28-2011, 09:42 PM
Honest, it's early for heavy analysis. Let's revisit the nitpicking sometime in late December. I did see some YouTube video of Spangler so I wasn't surprised. The way he snatches the ball out of the air is amazingly catlike. I like him, but then again, I like them all. I predict a fascinating and entertaining year. Harris's hamstring is still a lingering worry. I was relieved to see him play as if it weren't a great problem.

My only disappointment was hearing Heister mispronounce Keita's name. If memory serves, Heister did learn to pronounce it correctly during last year's interview.

Sigh...

CDC84
10-28-2011, 09:42 PM
In Meehan's post game article, Few had one word to describe GU's outside shooting woes tonight: nerves.

He seemed pretty satisfied with tonight's performance overall. Especially when you consider that these guys just started practicing.

Radbooks
10-28-2011, 09:48 PM
Did one of the announcers say that Guy Landry Edi has to sit out 8 games? I thought I heard them say that, but I was sort of watching the baseball game too and I wasn't sure if that's what was said.

Did anyone else hear that? Was it brought up sometime before and I just didn't see it?

Reborn
10-28-2011, 09:59 PM
95-51. An Impressive 44 point victory for the team. The team could easily have scored 115 points, but I'm glad they didn't. I thought Gonzaga played pretty good defense which led to many easy baskets. I do think that this team likes to play defense. The Zags held a good 3 pt shooting team to 5-20 or 25%. This was THE factor that fans wanted to see improvement in, and the team didn't let them down.

I thought Pangos played really well. His shots were wide open and he hit them pretty consistently in the first half when this game counted. He has to shoot those shots if the teams leave our guards wide open. I did not think Stockton played well. He is NOT a good shooter. Talk about poor form.

As has been said over and over here, Dranginis played quite well. He was clearly the best guard tonight. I thought he looked good. He handles the ball very very well for a Freshman. His dribble reminds me of Raivio's. He was very agressive throughout the game. His stats were really good. I thought he played the 3 the way it should be played. I'm excited about him.

Spangler is something else. Like I said earlier, he's Pendo but two inches taller. I had always wondered what Pendo would have been like if he had been two inches taller. I think I'm seeing it in Spangler. Spangler is a GREAT rebounder. Carroll was not tall down low so Im excited to see Spangler against bigger guys.

This is the beginning of the bigger stage for these new college players. It was definitely not the biggest stage the Zags will see, but it is the beginning of a bigger stage. I thought Dranginis, Pangos and Spangler all stepped up. Congrats to all three. Keep it up guys. Just be yourselves.






Well! Gonzaga shot 6-20 from the 3 pt line in an exhibition game. 30% shooting, was not impressive at all.

zagzilla
10-28-2011, 10:09 PM
Did one of the announcers say that Guy Landry Edi has to sit out 8 games? I thought I heard them say that, but I was sort of watching the baseball game too and I wasn't sure if that's what was said.

Did anyone else hear that? Was it brought up sometime before and I just didn't see it?

I heard the same thing and did a double take. I had one eye on the baseball game so wasn't sure I heard it right. Certainly no talk about it before now...

Anybody know what this is about or is Heister confused?

billyberu
10-28-2011, 10:29 PM
I have no idea what the distance from the floor to the top of his head might be, and I don't care, since he's not a soccer player.

I did notice, though, that in the huddle, when he stood next to Sacre, the tops of both of their shoulders are approximately the same distance off the floor.

A few of you could remember Gary Lechman, Zag center from the mid-'60's. That's who Ryan Spangler reminds me of, though he is about 4 inches taller than Lechman was (6'5" on the program, but really only 6'3".) Broad shoulders, straight on top like James Caan or Kevin McHale, not sloped like Sacre or Schwarzenegger. So he's going to play about 4 inches taller than his head-to-foot height, whatever that might be, just as longer-necked, low-shoulders guys on the roster (Sacre and Olynyk) are constantly disappointing some of you by playing under their height ("How can a seven-footer NOT get 10 boards a game?!" Well, by floor-to-shoulder height, they're only equivalent to 6'9" or 6'10", that's why.)

Spangler is a keeper.

I've never thought to even consider that. Height seems such a static thing and yet...what you say makes sense. Spangler seems to have long arms too, while Sacre, in comparison, seems to have abridged limbs like a T-rex. Still, rumbling with Robert for 30 minutes has to take a toll on whoever is guarding him.

Was quite impressed with Spangler. Has a nice eye for the ball and some cat-like reflexes. The ball never ricochets off his hands.

Guards that can shoot and bigs that can rebound Violette like. What more could a fan want.

Pargo the Destroyer
10-28-2011, 11:01 PM
Like what I saw. Holding off riding Spangs jock like the rest of the board. Would like to see him play someone that's at least his size, which carrol clearly didn't have. NAIA competition not at WCC level.

04ZagFan
10-28-2011, 11:03 PM
Dower did look bad.. But we already know what kind of player he is and what he brings to the table... 1st game of the season and there was little plan other than to make sure all the newbies got their feet wet.

Elias, Rob, and Marquise are our veteran leaders, and I really think we are in good hands.. I think the biggest problem Few is going go have (again) is trimming the rotation down so players can get into a routine and get comfortable.. I think we should red shirt a few players for the sake of spreading out the talent in years, and making Fews rotation decision easier. We know Spangler, Bell, and Pangos won't be red shirting. Dranginis looked good to me tonight but I'd still red shirt him. Also red shirt the g-prep kid.

Yikes, we still have a ton of guys who could be in the rotation.. I hope Kelly red shirts! Too many capable players and not enough minutes. And I'm tired of transfers!! Good problem to have though I suppose.

MickMick
10-28-2011, 11:12 PM
I liked most of what I saw, but I didn't like our means of getting the ball to Rob and Elias in the paint. It seemed like we just cleared everyone out and lobbed the ball in, so that whenever the post got the ball they were already double or triple teamed. That's all I could pick out that I didn't like.

This will get cleaned up. This game was proof that from the four position, no one on the team is better at the "high low" pass than KO. Harris needs work on the play. He will get it down.

Speaking of KO, was it really a concussion that kept him out? Or was it the idea that GU wanted to keep his redshirt option available?

The outmatched opponents were hanging on our bigs and GU was in the double bonus early. This tells me that the GU inside game is working as intended even if it wasn't visually stimulating. Collecting fouls isn't nearly as much fun to write home about as spectatcular dunks. Reallly, it looked like a scene we repeatedly saw last year. Fox was spot on with his comment that Dower needs additional strength to finish plays with opponents hanging on him. He needs to score field goals with an additional foul shot as opposed to just taking two foul shots.

Pangos is a heck of a passer. He is a heck of a shooter. He is doing exactly what he is coached to do. Few wants him to take open shots. It will really open up the offense when teams have to spend time "game planning" for his shooting. Something teams have not had to worry about from our PG position since the days of Pargo. Dickau made it clear that he thought Pangos was taking good shots.

Missed shots are so much better than turnovers. At least with a missed shot, you had a chance at scoring and with rebounders like Spangler out there, you can "let em fly" with a decent chance at an offensive rebound. On the other hand, you have no chance at points or rebounds with a turnover. You will not see me gripe about missed shots. You will see me gripe about turnovers. The GU turnovers were most glaring in attempted post feeds. Personally, I would rather see a player take an open shot (with a chance to miss) than to force feed a covered post (with a chance to turn the ball over).

Very impressive outing. Carrol isn't chopped liver and will be a force in NAIA play this year. Much respect for them playing hard until the final buzzer.

ZagsGoZags
10-28-2011, 11:43 PM
In comparing Spangler to Pendo
I would say though he is bigger he also has quicker reflexes and better hands

nobody will ever outdo Pendo on effort and hustle

jim77
10-29-2011, 01:51 AM
The Zags showed a lot of energy tonight. I'm not sure much was accomplished in sorting out playing time. The fellas all showed they could play.

My positives: E has come to play and the hammy didn't seem to affect his play much. Spangler should probably start. I thought Pango's shots we're within the flow of the game and agree with DD. We have a lot of solid blue collar players.

Negatives/unknowns: I think our bigs need more touches inside. As good as this crew is...whats gonna happen when we get up against some uber athletic ranked teams......will the blue colars hold their own then? We'll see. I can see why they got GBJ...although he didn't have a great game...I think he will be able to hold his own against athletic type players.

Other stuff: The opposing teams will not sweat our guards too much...its our bigs that they fear. The opposing teams will attempt to disrupt our guard play thus affecting touches by our bigs. I'd like to see MC and GBJ playing more together with Spangler ...Rob and E. The one thing I can say for sure with this team...we will win a war of attrition as we have good talent at all positions. Great effort by all the fellas. We now wait 2 weeks to see them again.....TOO BIG OF SPAN.

Birddog
10-29-2011, 04:06 AM
nobody will ever outdo Pendo on effort and hustle


Mike Hart?

The Lechman comparison to Spangler brought back some old memories. Ryan does take up a lot of space like Gary did, but Gary used his butt to clear space. Ryan claims a lot of space when he blocks out, but engages his wingspan more. He also screens well.


Just for the record, when I first saw Ryan last Jan, I asked his dad if he was a legit 6'8" and Mr Spangler emphatically said yes, in his bare feet. IIRC, he also has about a 7' wingspan.

Now Bulldog#1 will persist in saying he "isn't quick". Hmmm, maybe he isn't, but he sure gets up and down the court doesn't he. We didn't get to see him make a full court pass yet either that'll be the next eye opener.

I saw Spangler play 5 times in HS and wondered if he could make the same moves against better competition. Last night he moved up a notch to the NAIA level and didn't miss a thing. We'll have to wait to see if he can have the same results against D1 competition. I suspect he won't disappoint.

Martin Centre Mad Man
10-29-2011, 04:10 AM
If you don't mind...all though I have been viewing this board for several years, with nothing ever to say...I would like to post my viewpoint.

I believe with the lack of a game plan or drawn out plays this game was more about developing trust and expectations of one another. With that said...

SACRE: Impressive as always, however rarely had the opportunity I had hoped. Made smart decisions with his shot selection, but seems to lack the will to challenge at times. With his strength and height advantage, he should have been more aggressive.

CARTER: He managed to score 6 points and grab a single rebound in 10 minutes, however simply was unimpressive. I suspect that maybe he is a player that relies on expectations, team play not individual play.

BELL: I believe that nerves got to him, and with each mistake/miss he simply became less confident. It also seemed as if Bell was looking for something to develop. My best guess is maybe Bell is a reactionary type player.

STOCKTON: His shot was terrible today but the great thing about him is his unselfishness and knowledge of Few's system. He might not score big, but he knows how to find his players. Slow on defense, and easily passed.

HARRIS: This guy is about to establish his legacy as a Zag this year. He has more bounce, more aggression, and more hair. Both his offense and defense were dramatic performances. His play are what I would call "momentum swings".

DRANGINIS: Played with unselfish aggression all the while looking for a weakness in the opposing defense. Played with confidence and comfort.

PANGOS: Played selfishly, but seemed to play with alot of energy. Appeared to outrun the play, not waiting for things to develop.

LANDRY: Lots of will and hustle, but nothing to seriously gleam over. Knowledge of the system will help.

SARBAUGH: In 4 minutes of play he quickly managed 2 assists and a rebound, but not attempting a shot. Seemed promising, grounded, and comfortable.

SPANGLER: WOW!!! I think we might have a gem here. Was impressive at everything. Was everywhere...out hustling everyone. In 20 minutes, he managed 10 points - 11 rebounds - 1 assist - 2 steals - 2 blocks.

MOENINGHOFF: He was on target tonight. But at times he seems to struggle with finding his position both on offense and defense.

KEITA: 7 points in 7 minutes. Seemed almost desperate to display he worth. But unlike last year, he delivered. Aggressive on both sides. But I continue to get a feeling that he plays by himself.

HART: Should be called HEART. This guy is 100% TEAM. Everything he does seems to be the right thing. Aggressive and confident. The most team oriented player with the most balanced abilities.

DOWER: Seemed to lack will at the start. But once getting comfortable with the game and speed, he started to be more aggressive and comfortable. Hard to tell if any development over the season.

I would like to give KUDOS to the Carroll College. Very good sportsmanship. They played hard and confidently. Very team oriented and mature. They never appeared to give up nor did any player try to become the hero. This team deserves recognition.

My two cents,
Voice4Vision

You should post more often. Those observations were spot on.

Martin Centre Mad Man
10-29-2011, 04:21 AM
My observations -

Spangler plays big, physical lunch pail basketball. Regardless of his "true" height, the kid is going to outplay taller players with strength, hustle, and a great nose for the ball. This kid was a great pickup.

Dranginis is more ready than I thought he would be. He is more athletic than I expected and his shot, ball-handling and court vision look Div I ready. He could play and contribute in Game 1. I still think he should redshirt to alleviate some of the congestion for playing time at the guard spots. He'll be a solid addition to this team for years to come.

Harris looks great.

Pangos is already the most complete point guard we've had in a long time.

jazzdelmar
10-29-2011, 04:49 AM
On the whole, B plus. Better than the scrimmage but Carroll hardly resembles any team we will face, save poor USD. Sorry, Billy.

Revelations, so to speak, were Drangs and Spangs. One was under the radar and the other so highly touted here. Would love to grade Pangs (to complete the alliteration) as an A but he went a little rogue there in the 2nd half. Still, if he is good enough for DD he's good enough for me. Foxie, by the way, was v. good but his talk about Dower in the NBA, well, that was folksy and silly.

Harris, I dunno. He waxes and wanes. Let's hope he's furious all the time. Sacre was going thru the motions and it seems we still can't find someone to make a clean entry pass to him.

A lot of very good players, a lot of good players. This is a familiar problem at Gonzaga and so far Few has not quite mastered it.

Biggest head scratchers were Bell (I saw nothing, to be honest; particularly when he ostensibly "ran" the point) and Carter. That's a key position. Stockton, all due respect Abe, doesn't look like he's appreciably stronger or bigger.

So early.

DCZag
10-29-2011, 05:05 AM
I echo most of the posters - too early for anything concrete. I'm not going to put too much into 'Quise and GBJ and Big Rob not dominating. I was most impressed with Spang's hustle and the biggest surprise to me was how the "forgotten" one, Dranginis, played within himself and was under control.

I'm excited for the team, but not too excited yet, it was an NAIA team we blasted. I'll temper my enthusiasm for after the TX scrimmage.

Last word - the most noticeable difference was that the broadcast team was coherent for most of the evening. Fox and Dickau really added some depth. I've met Ehlo a couple of times at State 2b, nice guy, long time NBA'er - subpar color analyst.

I'm glad we have bball back, finally!

Go Zags!

NotoriousZ
10-29-2011, 05:29 AM
...Last word - the most noticeable difference was that the broadcast team was coherent for most of the evening. Fox and Dickau really added some depth. I've met Ehlo a couple of times at State 2b, nice guy, long time NBA'er - subpar color analyst...

I think Fox and DD could do the show by themselves. Heister, while next to Ehlo looks like a basketball genius, now appears a bit out of touch next to a couple of guys who actually know basketball. Any extra room on that Eastern bench?

As for the game/players, we really don't know that much yet. Spangler did impress me, and I thought Pangos played very well.

bigblahla
10-29-2011, 05:47 AM
If you don't mind...all though I have been viewing this board for several years, with nothing ever to say...I would like to post my viewpoint.

PANGOS: Played selfishly, but seemed to play with alot of energy. Appeared to outrun the play, not waiting for things to develop.

Well thought out, we have a different view on Pangos.

The job at point is to push tempo and facilitate.

I've always viewed basketball as a sport where the team that functions the quickest as a team always has an advantage so what you describe as outrunning the play I look at pushing the tempo in an attempt to get his team performing at a unified faster pace.

Welcome aboard.

Just my opinion.

Go!! Zags!!!

DixieZag
10-29-2011, 06:00 AM
As already mentioned Pangos had some shots that were a thing of beauty and had some shots ring in and out. Additionally, the offense was very limited in just basic weaves and passes into the post, not something that will really show off much in court vision.

One thing I did notice about Pangos that I was happy to see was he made a few beautiful transition passes to a lead guy breaking for a lay-up, one was a bounce pass that was turned over b/c I doubt anyone was expecting it but went through the hands were it was supposed to be, another was a quick lob to a breaking man in the lead (Harris, I think) and it was perfect, we turned the ball over so many times last year - especially early - with passes trying to find the lead on the break and were either to far and went out of bounds or too short and TO'd. Pangos seems to have the vision and the ability to feed the transition.

GBJ, well, he was only POY last year in HS boys BB, I am not the LEAST big worried about a poor, nerve wracked first game in front of the students/friends - the next two times he steps on the floor in the Mac will be more "familiar" and I think he will respond quickly.

Dower just couldn't find his shot, got down and started forcing it, no worries.

BULLDOG#1
10-29-2011, 06:24 AM
birddog, you should temper your enthusiasm.

Spangler looked good last night. Great at times. He was able to get rebounds he's really was not in position to get -- by instinct and a long reach, or maybe he just has a knack for the ball. Definately he has a skill for it though. IF he doesn't redshirt, those skills will come in handy for the zags this year. For years the zags have needed an elite rebounder and Spangler 'may' be it... hard to say when the only look we've had is against a talented but undersized NAIA team.

I'm not sure what you're expecting me to say? He's going to dominate, deserves to start and is quicker than a cat?

Umm, not from what I saw. He looks big and strong, looks like a good athlete for his size and could teach our other bigs a thing about going after rebounds. Those are complements, birddog. To me, he didn't look overly quick up and down the floor and does not look like an elite athlete, bit ridgid, that's all. Doesn't look afraid of mixing it up, and goes after the ball on every play. No doubt, there's a lot to like about the kid.

Don't know if he'll redshirt or not. Probably not based on what I saw last night, but I also remember how dominate Sam Dower looked in an exhibition game two years ago and he ended up redshirting, so who knows? Would have been interesting to see KO in the game last night. There's a lot of skills there, too...

jazzdelmar
10-29-2011, 06:33 AM
as i said, lots of very good players, and lots of good ones.....in order to get past the sweet 16 gu will need one, two maybe 3 breakout players; not nec NBA level but better than what we have had. right now, harris and sacre are on the periphery but a ways to go. having 4 very good players vs having 8 very good players is only a marginal upgrade when it's time to play the big boys in march.......

BULLDOG#1
10-29-2011, 06:35 AM
getting away from Spangler...

I was really impressed with Edi. I had expected a slightly better Ira, but clearly there's a lot more to Edi. He seemed to be where he needed to be on offense and defense, showed some ballhandling and passing skills i didn't expect. Didn't force anything and just looked like he was playing with a level of confidence. This was what I expected out of Bell, not Edi. He definately looks like a rotation player, hope there's no truth tohim sitting out 8 games.

Virginia Zags Fan
10-29-2011, 07:04 AM
The team has a lot of potential. I was impressed with how the new guys played considering they are, well, new. This will give the coaches plenty to work on and we will really know much more about what we have when the guys face Texas next week.

sharpzag
10-29-2011, 07:13 AM
I heard Guy had to sit out 8 games as well...something to do with his overseas playing...

Chicken Ball
10-29-2011, 07:56 AM
I seldom post. It's hard not to get excited at the beginning of the year, though. I've got a bunch of work to do today, but I can't concentrate until I get my Zag thoughts written down. So here goes.

That pull-up J Guy hit was pretty impressive. Athletic, perfect form, in traffic, made it look easy. That's a shot several of our past athletic transfer SFs could never have made: Reason, Knight, maybe even Downs. On the other hand, he also made a couple foolish decisions to dribble straight into the defense and got stripped. Nerves, maybe. I think Guy can play. I hope he's watching Hart to see how a 6'6" guy should play D. He's obviously got the physical tools to be a lock down defender.

Hart is clearly thinking two plays faster than everyone else on the floor on defense.

Other observations: Much has been made of Spangler's nsoe for the ball, and rightly so, but what I noticed in addition were three things: he hit a mid-range jumper with no hesitation in the flow of the offense; he has great hands, seems like he has flypaper on 'em. Batista-escque?; and he led the team in blocks, which, given his lack of explosive leaping, means he's a very smart defender. He uses quickness and body control to get to the spot he needs to be in to block a shot, rather than relying on sheer hops.

Our ball-handling the next few years will be terrific. All the newcomer guards handle it very well. GU will never have to worry about traps, and should be ale to run a lot. Also, all of the newcomers can pass. Great dribbling and passing should mean great ball movement, which should yield easy baskets. A return to the offensive style of '99-'00? Also, our new guards will be able to hit the boards.

I know the announcers mentioned it during the game, but Harris looks great. He's way more mobile, his handle is improved, and he seems to have developed the ability to go left (although it remains to be seen whether he can finish with his left). Also, he was very active on defense. His newfound quickness makes me pretty interested to see him at the 3. I think he can excel there this year on offense and, given his new defensive intensity (if it holds up), I think he can hold his own on that end, too.

Sacre's defense outside the paint has improved even from last year. A step quicker even than we saw last year. He's a terrific weapon to have against ball screens.

I thought Carter did very well. When he scored, he scored effortlessly. He's just a ton of fun to watch, because he's always in complete control. He doesn't quite have Bouldin-level moves and deceptiveness (and doesn't pass it as well as Bouldin), but that's who he reminds me of when he's making his move offensively.

Monninghoff has bulked up a bit. Hopefully that means he's physically ready to be more than a spot-up jump shooter and a matador on defense. The mental side? We'll see...

Bell will be fine.

I really liked the rotation of big men. I'd love to see Olynyk redshirt, refine his big man skills and work on his agility, and come back ready to team up with Dower and Spangler next year. A KO who's more comfortable with his seven-foot frame will be a formidable player. I think he might need another year to get there. In the meantime, I like our post rotation.

I think someone above said that it Keita looks good out there, but it seems like he's playing all by himself? I think that nails it. Just doesn't have a great feel for where his teammates are, where the passing and driving lanes are, etc.

Hoopaholic
10-29-2011, 07:57 AM
loved the front line

concerned about the guard play on both sides of the court...I was truly disappointed in the number of times an NAIA guard blew past our guards...this would not fair out well at the D1 level as it could create foul issues for our bigs which would not be a good thing

Thought little selfish at times on the court, but it was an exhibition game. Our offense generated by another was lacking and the ball rotation and lack of identifying how the double teams were occuring was very poor

All things that can be worked on and improved and with our front line we should ride them until the cows come home

Goshzagit
10-29-2011, 08:15 AM
I thought everyone had their moments and played pretty darn well. The energy and hustle was encouraging and underrated, imo. While we didn't score at will as in past seasons, I've never seen so much effort in an exhibition game.

The only player I was "disappointed" with, if you could even call it that, was Gary Bell Jr.

I had more expectations from him outta this game. He lacked the awareness of Dranginis, the confidence of Pangos, the savvy of 'Quise, and the tempo of Stockton. He was clearly nervous and step behind every decision he made, whether he was late pulling the trigger on an open shot or taking the extra look instead of the timely pass. While some of our guards didn't shoot particularly well *cough* Stockton & Pangos, they made several positive plays i.e. Pangos with 4 assists, Stockton with the right decision. GBJ didn't do anything well, even his defense was porous.

The good news is Coach Few mentioned he's the most affected by nerves and has been playing well in practice. Maybe this game was exactly what the Dr. ordered.

I liked what I saw outta of each and every guy. I would have liked to see Hoff play a few more mins and 'let it fly'. He was 3-4 from 3pt in KITK and 2-3 from 3pt vs CC, and shot 55% for Germany this Summer & for Gonzaga last year. Let him SHOOT MORE! Run set plays to get his shot off...with Guy Landry out, we're gonna need his money shot to spread defenses vs the big boys. Why not, just for the sake of it, have him attempt 7 or 8 3's per game? It paid off big for Germany and the dude is 6'7", with great elevation, and can get his shot off vs anyone. Not saying he should start, but we have one of the best shooters in the Country...let's use him. He's like Brett Kingma with 6 more inches. ANY team in the Country would love to have a 6'7" kid who shoots 50+% from 3pt. Another disappointing aspect was the lack of plays run for him like we used to do for Bankhead and Dickau in the day. Do it now. WAY overdue, imho.

23dpg
10-29-2011, 08:34 AM
I only saw the second half so my observations are only worth half as much as some of the other posts.

Spangler looked great. I haven't been this excited about a rebounder since Manny......did I just say that? (Manny had glue on his hands his freshman year, it wore off later.)

Drang looked fluid. He will probably still redshirt but he could play this year if needed.

Carter will be the filler guy this year. When we need scoring, he will do it, when we need passing, he will do it. His averages will be just ok but I really think he's vital to GU having a good year.

Pangos' shot looked funny to me. He spreads his legs when he goes up and when he lands they're kind of scissored, if you know what I mean. I don't know if this is his normal shot or if it was a reflection of being gassed.

Hart continues to win me over. I am seeing what the coaches have seen for a while. Hmmmm, maybe Few does know what he's doing. (sarcasm).

FGZagDad
10-29-2011, 09:24 AM
Caught the game late last night on a justin tv replay, great and thanks!

Like many, I liked the play of Spangler. Hard working, good athlete and great hands. He will be fun to watch.

Pangos and Drang both showed some skills. Good ball handlers and they seemed to play with some level of confidence that's good to see from such young players.

I agree, Bell will be fine, not a great showing...but just wait.

E was "on" last night. In the passing lanes, active and working inside.

Landry will add a lot. Hope he doesn't have to sit out games early.

Sam seemed off, last night but the remaining returners were solid if not impressive. Hart tho, was impressive, the kind of guy that is so important to a team, always hustling and making everyone better for it.

Good that the minutes were spread around, everyone saw the court and got a chance to work out the jitters....on to the next game.

awberke
10-29-2011, 09:26 AM
Not sure why people seem to think pangos shot looked poor. I thought it looked excellent.

Quick release, follow through, tight shoulders, squared to the basket. It doesn't matter what you do with your legs, case-in-point jimmer. Scissoring his legs was just from trying to get the shot off while on the move, which I agree, he didn't need to do.

04ZagFan
10-29-2011, 09:59 AM
Not sure why people seem to think pangos shot looked poor. I thought it looked excellent.

Quick release, follow through, tight shoulders, squared to the basket. It doesn't matter what you do with your legs, case-in-point jimmer. Scissoring his legs was just from trying to get the shot off while on the move, which I agree, he didn't need to do.


It doesn't look great.. But at the end of the day, if it goes in, that's all that matters. The only thing I can see wrong with it on TV, is that he shoots it from his shoulder. He needs to get that thing up more. I don't think he's quite as ready as we thought.

tinfoilzag
10-29-2011, 10:13 AM
Dower played as if he has been practicing against guys as big or bigger than him (see Sacre). He was overplaying the guys guarding him; putting on more moves than he had to. I did love the "dream shake" move he's added to his game though. What made him such a effective scorer as a frosh was his soft touch on simple shots. I'm sure the coaches will tell him to get back to taking what is given him. The pace was fast and the shots going up fast as well which really don't translate well into pounding it inside. Dower will be fine, just wasn't a good matchup for him.

I was really impressed by the movement and spacing from the young guys. The energy will make for a lot of turnovers on both sides of the ball. This team will be anything but boring to watch.

sittingon50
10-29-2011, 10:35 AM
Lot of great observations in this thread. Some things pointed out that I hadn't noticed.

I had a # of takeaways from the game but #1 was seeing Kyle D. up close. Listed on the GoZags roster @ 175. Listed in the game program as 201. Definitely the latter. He's no beanpole; he's filled out pretty nicely & has very impressive skills.

Angelo said something a few days back that was quoted on the SMC board (disdainfully) in that the Zags will redshirt guys this year that are better than a recruit we just lost. Absolutely correct. IMO GU has never had as many guys capable of contributing on such a high level.

NEC26
10-29-2011, 11:05 AM
After having watched a replay of the game I came away very impressed with KP's playmaking and decision making. Yeah he rimmed out a few shots from three but they were good decisions and I have confidence more often than not they will fall for him.
His passing and decision making are top notch already something this team has lacked in a point guard for a while. Given some time this year there is no doubt in my mind he will be the starter and more than capable of leading this team.

Edit: I also was impressed with Guy Landry and Hart as well. Guy Landry will be a good player for us at a position we need someone to step up.

U Zig, I Zag
10-29-2011, 11:31 AM
My list:

Not sure if the coaches just drive this into the kids brains and they are compelled beyond their own better judgment to do it, but the high-low lead pass is just lacking. Over and over and over they kept trying to get it down there., nothing but TO's. Later on Stockton and Pangos made some better passes down low, but overall it was more of what happened last year all the time. Is it just that difficult?

Biggest surprise was The Dragon. Wasn't shaky, made some good passes - has some great handles for his size. We have been salivating over Pangos, Spangler, GBJ all summer. I didn't hear much about this kid and I just assumed he would RS. He may still RS, but not because he needs massive improvement, but to spread the talent over a couple years.

The holdovers more or less did their thing as expected. The 3 attempts at the tip was sort of embarrassing. E looked good. Thinner, more aggressive.

Sam kicked into gear later in the game, looked out of it in the first 3/4 of the evening.

Pangos will be a good floor general. He took some chances and made a few silly plays, but overall he looked confident. One or two unessecary shots, but the rest were justifable. This team needs a PG that can score, it's been awhile since we had a gunner at PG.

Spangler is a beast. Grabbed boards like crazy. Has good handles for a guy his size. Not sure how you keep him off the floor, especially if KO sits out a year.

GBJ didn't play well, but I would chalk that up to nerves and being tentative. If he gets going early in one of the upcoming games that would help.

The 2nd squad that came in was a legitimate WCC team.

MM will stick around, even if it's only a 3-point specialist. I really was hoping he would be more aggressive this year. He seems content to roam the perimeter.

Was concerned about Keita not getting in but he put up some numbers and hit his shots when he got the chance.

It's only been one game and against an inferior opponent, but I would have no issues with a starting line up like this:

Pangos
Carter
E*
Big Bang Spang
Rob


How many players would be too many to RS? Is it reasonable for KO, Draginis and Sarbough to all RS? All things being equal, if MM and Draginis bring the same shooting aptitude I would play Draginis over MM - if only because he wasn't afraid to put it on the deck and go. Unless he is shooting, MM treats the ball like a hot potato.

*not sure Elias developed anymore 3 skills over the summer, we may just have to get used to him at the 4 all year.

04ZagFan
10-29-2011, 11:33 AM
Are we SERIOUSLY still putting Elias at the 3 in our mock starting 5?

U Zig, I Zag
10-29-2011, 11:40 AM
Are we SERIOUSLY still putting Elias at the 3 in our mock starting 5?

If E could dribble he would be the best 3 to come along in awhile.

We more or less have one player that sticks in his area and that's Rob. Once the play starts everyone is in motion. E accepted a pass at the top of the key way more times then he did down low.

Baseline
10-29-2011, 11:40 AM
The Drag is ready, I would hate to see him red shirt. If Harris doesn't play the 3, I would start him at that position.
It will get interesting for time at the 4 if E is the 3. Dower will be challenged very much. Dower can score, but Spang brings a lot more to the game.
I absolutely loved watching Hart and Spangler work together on the floor. Two high energy guys attacking the boards. That combo will change momentum in a game, watch for it.

NEC26
10-29-2011, 11:44 AM
Hmmm. Gonzaga shot 56 percent from in the paint and 30 percent from 3 in an exibition game. I think Stockton will continue to start with the emphasis in getting the ball in the paint early on in games. He is experienced in doing that. Especially more difficult games.

As Mark few said...this is a deep team. I don't think anyone is going to dominate the PG position for a long time, if at all this year.

As far as decision making: In this game it was not that ciritical obviously, but when we start playing tough teams, it will be. Pangos went 4-for-12 from the field and 3-of-9 from 3-point range. he did have four assists and had just one turnover in 18 minutes. This was an exibition game. It is up to Pangos on how well Pangos plays. He is a freshmen, so how well he is going to play at GU is yet to be seen. Will he continue to shoot or will he concentrate on getting the ball to our bigs? Will he get frustrated trying to hit shots, or will he concentrate on being a PG? I am looking forward to him playing against WSU. They may not be that great, but they will be a very defensive team. How well, will he be able to feed it inside?

You like David and so do I. I was one of the first and biggest proponents on this board for more playing time for him last year. He posses great passing skills and knowledge of the game and runs the team well. He makes plays on defense but you can't deny he gets beat there as well.
David will get his minutes this year but from what I have seen Pangos is clearly the better shooter and his playmaking ability is also good. Those threes he took were not bad shots and they barely rimmed out.
They were in the flow of the offense and are exactly what this team needs if we are going to keep teams from sagging down on us all year. We need someone who is not afraid to take that shot and make them pay. Meanwhile he is very capable of feeding the post and has good playmaking ability.
I fully expect him to be the starter at some point but David will still be getting his minutes and contributing to this team no doubt.

04ZagFan
10-29-2011, 11:44 AM
The problem with a lot of what I'm hearing around here, is that a lot of you guys want to start all the freshman right away... They are not ready for that.

If Pangos/Bell/Dranginis/Spangler get the majority of the minutes at their positions, we would be lucky to go .500.

Carter
Bell
Harris
Sacre

HAVE to start and get the majority of the minutes. Too much youth= a lot of losses. Now, whether we want to start a PG with Bell and Carter, or start a SF and let Bell and Carter play PG is a decision I'll let Few make.. But we CANNOT start 3-4 freshman.

04ZagFan
10-29-2011, 12:20 PM
I think it should still be a consideration with as deep as this team is and what would be best for Harris, I think. His NBA future, for his size would be the 3.

He isn't a 3 though.. Watching him suck playing out of position isn't going to impress NBA scouts.

We need to limit the rotation of players or else the team will never improve. I don't want to see Elias move positions simply to add another player to the rotation.

NEC26
10-29-2011, 12:24 PM
Yes, Pangos is clearly the better shooter with lesser competition and better form. Though, it does appear that his percentage quickly drops with stiffer competition. That is very common for freshmen at this level.

Note the difference between Midnight madness and playing Carrol where he shot 4-12. What's it going to be when we play MSU, Arizona, ect? Will it get worse? I am betting it might, before it gets better, but that really depends on Pangos. I am not saying he will not start early on, I just have not seen a freshmen start early on, very often and I have gotten too excited over players early on myself.

It will depend on how well he adapts and how well he believes in what few tells him.

David Stockton has played some tough games and towards the end of the year, we would not have gone that deep without him. He was clearly better then Meech at times, other times not. Note: If you want to compare shooting. Stockton's stats are .460 and .333 for 3's. That is over the course of a season. Even though, he has a ugly shot, that is not bad.

Won't see any real stats on Pangos until the next game. That should be a fairly easy win. WSU, I think will show how well he adjusts to better D.

I agree, I don't think we win the conference or even make the tournament if it wasn't for David and Carter emerging at the end of the year.
I also think David is decent from three but his shot takes a while to get off and he is not exactly deadly from three which is what this team needs imo.
From what I saw Pangos has a lot of confidence in his shot and for good reason he has shown he can stroke it against high level competition, not just in these exhibition games.
Plus he showed a great ability to lead a fast break and he can feed the ball inside. The more he plays the better he gets and the more his teammates are expecting those passes(like the one Dower missed on the fast break that was a really good pass).
Like I said they both will be valuable to this team but I believe Pangos' brings a little more to the table. Especially once he gets some playing time.

04ZagFan
10-29-2011, 12:26 PM
We all know Stockton can lead this team to a WCC championship... The problem is, we all want more than that. We want deep NCAA tournament runs. With that, comes elite competition. We don't have a PG that can play with the elite athletes at PG... This is why I'm thinking GBJ and Carter might have to be our starting backcourt.

NEC26
10-29-2011, 12:37 PM
We all know Stockton can lead this team to a WCC championship... The problem is, we all want more than that. We want deep NCAA tournament runs. With that, comes elite competition. We don't have a PG that can play with the elite athletes at PG... This is why I'm thinking GBJ and Carter might have to be our starting backcourt.

Carter is simply not a point guard. It remains to be seen wether GBJ could be. Regardless Pangos and Stockton will be manning the point this year.

04ZagFan
10-29-2011, 12:39 PM
Carter is simply not a point guard. It remains to be seen wether GBJ could be. Regardless Pangos and Stockton will be manning the point this year.

And you're probably right.. but that's a huge problem.

04ZagFan
10-29-2011, 12:45 PM
Suck? I don't think Harris will suck at all, in either position this year. Limit? This team is deep. There is going to be a lot of rotation.

The scouts will be looking at Harris for the 3 position. In the NBA power forwards usually range from 6' 9" to 7' and 240 to 260 pounds or more. If you recall last year, that is what MF, his previous coach and Harris talked about. Yeah, I know at this level he excells at the 4, but what is the best position for Harris to develop at?

I can think of 3 people that can help, so Harris can develop more at the 3.
Edi Dower and Spangler. KO is probably going to RS. Go back and watch Harris on D early on. He did not suck at all being out of the paint. Sure, put him at the 4 if those three other players are a weekness and we need to win a game. The fairest thing to Harris, is to play him at the 3, I think.

He is one of my favorite GU players, of many. I want to see him be great.

I'll be honest with you, Johnny. I'm not very concerned with Elias this season. He's healthy, in shape, and a junior. He'll perform no matter what his labeled position is.

I'm much more concerned with the PG position. Do we have A high level D1 PG?

TheZagPhish
10-29-2011, 01:10 PM
Elias' jumping looked much improved. Springy, quick.

NEC26
10-29-2011, 01:14 PM
Elias' jumping looked much improved. Springy, quick.

Noticed that too, he exploded to the basket with rim rocking dunks. Kinda like his freshman year. I really believe he will be the impact player we were expecting last year.

titopoet
10-29-2011, 01:20 PM
dominate the PG position for a long time, if at all this year.

As far as decision making: In this game it was not that ciritical obviously, but when we start playing tough teams, it will be. Pangos went 4-for-12 from the field and 3-of-9 from 3-point range. he did have four assists and had just one turnover in 18 minutes. This was an exibition game. It is up to Pangos on how well Pangos plays. He is a freshmen, so how well he is going to play at GU is yet to be seen. Will he continue to shoot or will he concentrate on getting the ball to our bigs? Will he get frustrated trying to hit shots, or will he concentrate on being a PG? I am looking forward to him playing against WSU. They may not be that great, but they will be a very defensive team. How well, will he be able to feed it inside?

Hmmm, DS went 0-3 3 assists and allowed his man to score in double figures. In the first six minutes of play with DS in, the score 12 -8 and 6 of the Carroll eight came from a wide three by, you guested, DS's man. KP came in for the three and the lead jumped up to eleven. Carroll aggressively went after DS (they had film) and i fear Reggie Moore is licking his chops.

The key is how fast does Few get Pangos up to speed.

04ZagFan
10-29-2011, 01:50 PM
1- David Stockton is NOT John Stockton. So if David Stockton is ahead of his father at this point in time in their college careers, does that mean Stockton will go on to be the greatest PG of ALL TIME? No.

2- I'm not looking for a Ty Lawson or even a Matt Santangelo. I'm looking for a player who is physically ready enough to go up against the Reggie Moore's of the world. We have two guards who are tiny and their athleticism is in question. Sure, being a smart PG and a true PG is great.. But what about defense?

NEC26
10-29-2011, 01:51 PM
1- David Stockton is NOT John Stockton. So if David Stockton is ahead of his father at this point in time in their college careers, does that mean Stockton will go on to be the greatest PG of ALL TIME? No.

2- I'm not looking for a Ty Lawson or even a Matt Santangelo. I'm looking for a player who is physically ready enough to go up against the Reggie Moore's of the world. We have two guards who are tiny and their athleticism is in question. Sure, being a smart PG and a true PG is great.. But what about defense?

Pangos is not tiny(nor slow or unathletic). Were are you getting the idea that he is? By the way Ty Lawson was a small point guard but he had elite quickness.
You don't have to have a 6-4 point guard to succeed in the tournament.

04ZagFan
10-29-2011, 01:56 PM
Pangos is not tiny. Were are you getting the idea that he is? By the way Ty Lawson was not a very big point guard he had elite quickness.

Tiny in the fact that he's extremely thin.

Lawson wasn't tall at all, but like you said, had elite quickness... So far, nobody is refuting my argument. Can we guard Reggie Moore? (I keep using him as an example, because he's pretty much a standard PG (physically) that the best teams in the country have.

Here are some scouting reports on Pangos:

"Unfortunately, Pangos ended looking a bit overmatched against the athleticism of Team USA, having a tough time getting the World Team into their offense, particularly early on in the game, ending up shooting 1-6 from the field and committing two turnovers in 16 minutes of action."

"Pangos will always likely be somewhat limited due to his physical profile, as he stands at 6'1 with a wingspan less than six feet, and has only average speed and explosiveness. He is a very competitive defender, but there are some question marks about his ability to guard bigger and more athletic players at his position."

How much of an improvement over Stockton is Pangos physically?

NEC26
10-29-2011, 02:07 PM
I would disagree with the assessment he is extremely thin but I guess thats a rather subjective opinion. He is no thinner than GBJ is. I really don't think a point guard needs to be huge anyway.
He does need to have the quickness to contain penetration though and no doubt he will have to improve on that. Keep in mind he was guarding guys that will be in the NBA next year and Reggie Moore is no slouch either (although I do think we will be able to contain him).
If he improves I do believe this team as a whole is capable of beating top level teams. He doesn't have to be a Derrick Rose for us. Just be able to run the offense and and make teams pay when they try and clog the middle.

Edit:4 Kevin Pangos G 6-1 180 It may not be Pargo but its not extremely thin either.

04ZagFan
10-29-2011, 02:14 PM
Let me say this to start off this post: I don't mean to bash ANY player... I am just playing devils advocate, because some think we are a final four team... I think we are a great mid major, nothing more.

I hope you're right, that Pangos can physically compete against the Reggie Moore's of the world... Does he have to dominate? No. Does he have to dunk over people? Absolutely not. Does he have to consistently beat guys off the dribble? No Way!

Like I said, I'm not looking for a Derrick Rose... I'm looking for a Dan Dickau/Matt Santangelo like athlete... That's all we need. Can Pangos be that? I hope so. I don't know though.

Worthington
10-29-2011, 02:31 PM
Pangos seems like me might be the quickest player on the team from what I've seen. Defense isn't all about physical attributes either, John Stockton was a very good defensive point guard and he wasn't exactly the strongest guy on the court. To quote draftexpress again

"Defensively, Pangos is smart and competitive. He knows how to use his body effectively and shows terrific fundamentals and patience staying in front of his man."

Honestly Pangos' defensively ability isn't really weighing to much on my mind, he seems very good from what I've seen, when he's not going up against an all-star team of future NBA talent. I'm not saying he definitely won't have troubles guarding anybody this season, but I don't think it is certain that he will.

NEC26
10-29-2011, 02:34 PM
Pangos may eventually be Dan Dickau good but most assuredly he won't be this year. Final Four seems like a stretch to me too. Pangos and Stockton will really have to be a solid duo and a lot of things would have to fall into place for that to happen.
I do think Pangos is going to be a real solid Point guard for us this year though and who knows by the end of the year maybe GBJ, Pangos, and Carter are one of the better back courts out there. Or at least good enough to make our front court as effective as it can be.

maynard g krebs
10-29-2011, 03:00 PM
Johnny, please stop with the "Pangos was selfish" crap. He took maybe one questionable shot out of 12. Pay attention to Dickau, who knows a bit more about the game than we do, and said Pangos needs to take those shots. If he doesn't, the d packs the paint, taking away the post pass.

Goshzagit
10-29-2011, 03:05 PM
Pangos is one of the better defenders on the team from what I've seen thus far. The way he sets his feet, his hands up, gets low, and hustles his rear off. He had a few tipped balls that lead to steals by other players. He was only beat on a ball-screen, unlike the alternative who was getting blown by at half-court. This occurrence literally stopped the moment Pangos went in the game and our lead increased by double within minutes. Not saying anything against Stocks here, just pointing out a fact. Some of Pangos passes in transition lead to Landry's dunk and a Spangler lay-up -- off of his tipped pass. These details seem to get missed.

Listen, Stocks and Pangs are close to the same type of player. Let's say all things are equal. If this is the case, Pangos is 3" taller, 25 lbs heavier, and features a bit better shot.

"nearly all of David's strengths, yet fewer of the weaknesses..." This made perfect sense or just play one 20 mins and the other 20 mins for the first few games and see who is more efficient/effective/valuable to the team. There you go...

PS-> I love when doubters love to point out the Pan Am game(Pangos had flown in from overseas at another Tourney), he practiced for 1 day with a hodge podge team of Int'l "all-stars" vs NBA-lottery players(all 5* recruits, Top-25 guys) who had played in 3 previous Tournaments together. The funny thing is, NO ONE from the int'l team looked good save the uber-athletic, 1st Round draftee from Africa. He was effective b/c he was more athletic than his opponents and a better talent. Honestly, that USA team could probably beat any team in the NCAA this year. They were good. Also, what about Kevin's 25+ games where he was a STUD, made 1st-Team all tourney Guard alongside Bradley Beal and others?

JPtheBeasta
10-29-2011, 03:08 PM
A few thoughts:
-I like that we have so many weapons this year. We are going to be scary for opposing teams to game plan for. We have enough shooting that if one guy gets hot he can carry the team on an off night or blow out a team when everything is clicking. I suspect a lot of different "heroes" from game to game.
-We appear to have point guards that are getting the ball up the floor with a purpose- it was touched on earlier that Meech may have been faster but the transition baskets will be more plentiful because these guys will get the ball to the right spots at the right times
-I loved seeing the defense extended well past the 3-point line
-We also have bigs running the floor this year and I expect results like the Stepp-to-Turiaf days.
-I expect Carter to be in the 3 spot and Dranginis to step into that role when it's time to turn over the reigns. Carter is a proven commodity and was a closer at the end of games. It's one thing to have talent but the freshman are going to have to prove that they can get the job done when the pressure is on.
-A backcourt of Pangos/Bell/Dranginis could develop into one of the best ever here.
-All this talk about Bell has me worried a bit about a PMAC situation. Bell, by all accounts, is much more talented, so I hope it starts to click for him once these get underway for real.

gamagin
10-29-2011, 03:09 PM
many of the plays were intended to get the ball to the open pg (or 2 or 3 for that matter) and for him to shoot if that was the best option. That's the idea. It's what we've been working on for some time and what we've needed forever: to create a perimeter threat.

Our past problems have involved the open guy refusing to shoot. I think we should all get on the same page in that regard. Selfish is not being open and taking the shot. It is following the play as it was designed.

maynard g krebs
10-29-2011, 03:10 PM
Tiny in the fact that he's extremely thin.

Lawson wasn't tall at all, but like you said, had elite quickness... So far, nobody is refuting my argument. Can we guard Reggie Moore? (I keep using him as an example, because he's pretty much a standard PG (physically) that the best teams in the country have.

Here are some scouting reports on Pangos:

"Unfortunately, Pangos ended looking a bit overmatched against the athleticism of Team USA, having a tough time getting the World Team into their offense, particularly early on in the game, ending up shooting 1-6 from the field and committing two turnovers in 16 minutes of action."

"Pangos will always likely be somewhat limited due to his physical profile, as he stands at 6'1 with a wingspan less than six feet, and has only average speed and explosiveness. He is a very competitive defender, but there are some question marks about his ability to guard bigger and more athletic players at his position."

How much of an improvement over Stockton is Pangos physically?

Extremely thin? Better see an optometrist. He's 180. I was at every home game Dickau played at UWhis fr yr. Pangos is bigger, stronger, and quicker than DD at the same point. DD was listed 170 then, I believe. Similar skills. Dickau had a better shot, but that's it.

And what you are quoting is from an NBA draft projection site, which has little to do with college bb.

maynard g krebs
10-29-2011, 03:22 PM
Pangos is one of the better defenders on the team from what I've seen thus far. The way he sets his feet, his hands up, gets low, and hustles his rear off. He had a few tipped balls that lead to steals by other players. He was only beat on a ball-screen, unlike the alternative who was getting blown by at half-court. This occurrence literally stopped the moment Pangos went in the game and our lead increased by double within minutes. Not saying anything against Stocks here, just pointing out a fact. Some of Pangos passes in transition lead to Landry's dunk and a Spangler lay-up -- off of his tipped pass. These details seem to get missed.

Listen, Stocks and Pangs are close to the same type of player. Let's say all things are equal. If this is the case, Pangos is 3" taller, 25 lbs heavier, and features a bit better shot.

"nearly all of David's strengths, yet fewer of the weaknesses..." This made perfect sense or just play one 20 mins and the other 20 mins for the first few games and see who is more efficient/effective/valuable to the team. There you go...

PS-> I love when doubters love to point out the Pan Am game(Pangos had flown in from overseas at another Tourney), he practiced for 1 day with a hodge podge team of Int'l "all-stars" vs NBA-lottery players(all 5* recruits, Top-25 guys) who had played in 3 previous Tournaments together. The funny thing is, NO ONE from the int'l team looked good save the uber-athletic, 1st Round draftee from Africa. He was effective b/c he was more athletic than his opponents and a better talent. Honestly, that USA team could probably beat any team in the NCAA this year. They were good. Also, what about Kevin's 25+ games where he was a STUD, made 1st-Team all tourney Guard alongside Bradley Beal and others?

Spot on. Thanks for articulating it so well.

cggonzaga
10-29-2011, 03:30 PM
Pangos is not small at all for the point guard position. He is much thicker than David and a good 3" taller. Pangos also looked like the superior defender last night. David cannot play that kind of defense against the rest of our opponents as he was burned several times by Carroll's ballhandlers who were not very quick. He needs to play smarter defense than that or he will get torched or will be in constant foul trouble this season. I have a feeling that Gary Bell will be guarding the other teams best guard scorer throughout the season however.

04ZagFan
10-29-2011, 04:46 PM
You can keep telling me about Pangos' size, speed, ect.... comparing him to Dickau, or other former stars of ours, but that's irrelevant.

Dickau wasn't tall. (he wasn't skin and bones, either)
He wasn't an elite athlete.

But he was one of the best if not the best PGs to ever roll through Gonzaga. All American. First round draft pick.... Does pointing out his size or freshman abilities mean ANYTHING? No. Why? Because we all know how the story ended for Dickau. ALL AMERICAN.

We don't know how the story ends for Pangos. What we do know, is that he a long way to go if we are going to make the Final Four with him running the show... And Yes, I understand he's just a freshman... But people in those thread think we're a final four team right now.. Just not true! I hope I'm wrong, and I hope Pangos turns into a Dan Dickau clone, but comparing Dickau and Pangos as freshmen doesn't mean they'll be comparable as seniors.

Expectations are extremely high on this board... Too high, IMO. (Again, I hope I am very wrong.) Final Four? With several unproven freshman? Take a look at the freshman that go to Kentucky, Duke, UNC, Uconn, ect. and then come tell me our freshman are ready to make a run at the final four.

Worthington
10-29-2011, 05:09 PM
I really don't think the general consensus of the board is that we are a sure fire final four team, I might have seen that once or twice.

ZagsGoZags
10-29-2011, 06:55 PM
somebody said, I think NEC

Pangos - He is no thinner than GBJ is. I really don't think a point guard needs to be huge anyway.

disagree - may I use the info from the roster?
both 6'1"

KP 180
GB 205

Bells upper body musculature reminds me of Pargo
I am surprised the difference is only 25 pounds, it seems bigger than that to me when I see the two side by side
I think Pangos IS thinner than GBJ

maynard g krebs
10-29-2011, 08:36 PM
I'm looking for a Dan Dickau/Matt Santangelo like athlete... That's all we need. Can Pangos be that? I hope so. I don't know though.

That's what I was responding to, 04. You brought up needing a Dickau caliber athlete (Dickau was nowhere near the athlete MS was, btw). I answered the question you asked, and then you say it's irrelevant. Reading comprehension please.

04ZagFan
10-29-2011, 10:30 PM
That's what I was responding to, 04. You brought up needing a Dickau caliber athlete (Dickau was nowhere near the athlete MS was, btw). I answered the question you asked, and then you say it's irrelevant. Reading comprehension please.

And neither DIckau or Satangelo were the athlete Pargo was.... Get where I was going with that now?

Please don't pull the "reading comprehension" card. I don't think we have a good enough athlete at PG to make a deep run into march... That's been my whole point on this. THAT question hasn't been answered... All I keep hearing is how much better Pangos "supposedly" is as a freshman than Dan Dickau was which is 100% irrelevant.

awberke
10-29-2011, 10:41 PM
And neither DIckau or Satangelo were the athlete Pargo was.... Get where I was going with that now?

Please don't pull the "reading comprehension" card. I don't think we have a good enough athlete at PG to make a deep run into march... That's been my whole point on this. THAT question hasn't been answered... All I keep hearing is how much better Pangos "supposedly" is as a freshman than Dan Dickau was which is 100% irrelevant.

Who says a PG has to be overly athletic to be successful?? You state they do not have to, and then contradict yourself. John Stockton wasn't dunking on people, i hear he was a decent PG.

I'm not drinking the final four kool-aid either but i think Pangos has so many more things going for him than stockton does.

In the end, we have such a small sample to draw conclusions from...a scrimmage and an exhibition. Let's at least give both players two games and then maybe we can keep this going.

04ZagFan
10-29-2011, 10:52 PM
Who says a PG has to be overly athletic to be successful?? You state they do not have to, and then contradict yourself. John Stockton wasn't dunking on people, i hear he was a decent PG.

I'm not drinking the final four kool-aid either but i think Pangos has so many more things going for him than stockton does.

In the end, we have such a small sample to draw conclusions from...a scrimmage and an exhibition. Let's at least give both players two games and then maybe we can keep this going.

I agree with you, man! We don't need Derrick Rose, but we need something more than Stockton. That's my point. I hope Pangos has more, but I am a little concerned. That's all.

sittingon50
10-29-2011, 11:27 PM
Not sure what your definition is of athletic, 04. Sans the outrageous dunks, Santangelo was more athletic than JP IMO. And I loved JP.

jim77
10-30-2011, 01:07 AM
Looks like everybody basically has the same concearn...our PG play. We are a potential final 4 contender at the 3-4-5 positions. Problem is how many of our bigs can create his own shot? I'd say E is the best at it.....the rest will need good guard play to shine. (Spangler may be the wildcard this year...this guy has got "it")

Idon't think it was an accident that GBJ was a starter against Carroll...Few knows his PG position is critically important this year...I'd have started him too. GBJ looks like the type who can and will take it to the hole against an MSU type team..he looks strong to me. I like Pangos too...and I think DS is the best half court passer that we have....and the worst defender. I think ALL 3 can contribute and we'll just have to wait and see how they develop.

The good news is we are VERY deep and can run most teams off the floor....we could have hung 120 on Carrol had we chosen too....they had no answer for E. I also agree with an earlier poster who suggested MM take 7-8 three's a game...with plays designed just for that purpose. (the guy has a professional looking 3 stroke) I also think Spangler is gonna be able to get points on his own too. Bottomline: We are so talented and deep that our 2- 5 positions are more than gonna make up fo any deficiencies of our PG play(against 85% of the teams we will play)......and we might feel a whole lot better come March.

titopoet
10-30-2011, 06:34 AM
Have you talked to Mark Few? I am guessing no. So, your last statement does not make much sense to me. Pangos is a freshmen and we really don't know how well he will be this seaosn.

As far as David's stats, from scoring, you are correct. Are you going to judge Sam for this game on his stats too? If you do, he won't see a minute of playing time, the rest of the season. It would appear, that he sucks. Obviously that is not the case. Sam, was more productive then any other player last season, for the time he had. "He was instant offense".


I have no qualms wth how Few s grooming Pangos. He's gave Pangos reps and time with the starters at the start of the second half. Nor do I believe that Pangos will be the starter in first few games.

Many are comparing Pangos to the greats, but I think he will be his own player. He is the next Kevin Pangos and it fun watching him develop. Many people fear he will take over soon fro DS and I think that is correct. The fact that he led the second unit to a win in the scrimmage who lead t that fact and nothing about the Carroll game lead to anything different. Yes, I had just review the game and at the 14 minute mark Carroll trailed only by 8 to 12, and 6 of th 8 came from DS man wide open at the 3 line. KP came in for sparked a 7 -0 run and had the team score more in 3 minutes than DS in 6 minutes. Trust me, the staff keeps tract of the that trend.

Again, I have no beef with how Few is developing KP. I think those who think that DS will have major minutes and KP will simply back him up by the end of the season are the ones drinking the Kool-aide. From the Coach Lloyod beaming smile, to slowing exposing KP to the media, to his getting more reps with the starters, Few is showing his cards. Pangos is his trump card for the season.

ZagsGoZags
10-30-2011, 08:04 AM
who is a final four contender at the 3?


I only see 4,5 there
with hopes for bell or carter at the 2
maybe pangos at 1

NotoriousZ
10-30-2011, 08:11 AM
I have absolutely no worries about Pangos. And I love what Stocks brings to the table also. The point guard spot is an asset once again for the Zags. NEC26 stated it much better:


...[David] posses great passing skills and knowledge of the game and runs the team well. He makes plays on defense but you can't deny he gets beat there as well.
David will get his minutes this year but from what I have seen Pangos is clearly the better shooter and his playmaking ability is also good. Those threes he took were not bad shots and they barely rimmed out.
They were in the flow of the offense and are exactly what this team needs if we are going to keep teams from sagging down on us all year. We need someone who is not afraid to take that shot and make them pay. Meanwhile he is very capable of feeding the post and has good playmaking ability.
I fully expect him to be the starter at some point but David will still be getting his minutes and contributing to this team no doubt.

With Landry out for hopefully less than eight games, our weak spot is definitely at the small forward.

awberke
10-30-2011, 11:16 AM
I'm not feeling too worried about Bell either. Few said there were freshman that performed well and others than didn't perform how they have been.

That tells me Bell has been showing the coach something we didn't see in the Carrol game.

He actually didn't play bad at all, he just didn't have the touch that game. His defense was impressive, and he just moved well.

jim77
10-30-2011, 11:34 AM
who is a final four contender at the 3?


I only see 4,5 there
with hopes for bell or carter at the 2
maybe pangos at 1

We collectively as a group are final 4 at those positions.....and I agree with an earlier poster who says E should be a "3". Spangler and Dower have got the 4 covered just fine....and I won't even mention Mike Hart. I am REALLY happy with Hart's play....the kid plays his tail end off.

zagray
10-30-2011, 01:43 PM
#5 RS, #4 EH, #3 GLE, #2 GB jr #1 KP.

This is the lineup Few wanted to see. Right now It would be Carter at the two.
Against elite teams Carter at the three would make it a long night on the boards. Steven Gray at the #3 was one of the top rebounders last year. Gary Bell needs more time before he is ready to make a significant impact at any position.

I am more worried about the #3 than the #1, Pangos and Stockton will be just fine.

04ZagFan
10-30-2011, 01:50 PM
#5 RS, #4 EH, #3 GLE, #2 GB jr #1 KP.

This is the lineup Few wanted to see. Right now It would be Carter at the two.
Against elite teams Carter at the three would make it a long night on the boards. Steven Gray at the #3 was one of the top rebounders last year. Gary Bell needs more time before he is ready to make a significant impact at any position.

I am more worried about the #3 than the #1, Pangos and Stockton will be just fine.

Marquise Carter is our best guard... Just because he didn't start the 2nd half certainly doesn't mean Few is entertaining the idea of bringing him off the bench. Without MC this season, the Zags would struggle to go .500 IMO.

Baldwinzag
10-30-2011, 02:02 PM
I am more worried about the #3 than the #1, Pangos and Stockton will be just fine.

If you click on my username and select "view all posts by Baldwinzag", you'll quickly discover I share the exact same sentiments re: our wing position(s).

The #3 in our offense is much more intriguing, impactful, and open for a player to step up and own the position. Marquise Carter at SF makes sense right now, but not the long-term solution this year. Maybe Monninghoff has become more versatile, Guy Landry is missing the 1/3rd of the season, and Elias Harris has made it clear he's playing PF this year.

We need defense, rebounding, toughness, and slashing ability...since Guy isn't an option during our OOC, we're going to rely on Carter, but have my apprehensions over his ability to defend. I love his controlled, smooth, savvy play, but would prefer to see 'Quise at SG and Bell Jr 1st off the bench to give him a breather. For me, its KP at 1, MQ at 2, GL at 3, EH at 4, RS at 5. Its the most versatile, skilled, and well-rounded lineup. Gary Bell, Sam Dower, David Stockton, and Ryan Spangler are 1st of the bench at each position. Best lineup by far.

Reborn
10-30-2011, 03:30 PM
Good post Baldwinzag. I agree with most of it accept I think Dranginis is going to contribute....I really liked his game against Carroll College. He looks smooth, confident, High IQ for the game.

Reborn
10-30-2011, 03:35 PM
Please don't twist my words. I said "If Pagos can be a little less selfish" and went on with an explaination of the duties of a point guard. I did NOT say Pangos was selfish. He did take one our two shots, he could of run a play. He is a freshmen and will learn. Maybe you think of term in black and white, I don't.

in your opinion, sir which shots by Pangos were bad shots? I'm just curious. He took 12 shots. Yes, a team high. But every shot was wide open, and he is a very good shooter. Why should he begin to pass up wide open shots?

ldszagfan
10-30-2011, 03:45 PM
in your opinion, sir which shots by Pangos were bad shots? I'm just curious. He took 12 shots. Yes, a team high. But every shot was wide open, and he is a very good shooter. Why should he begin to pass up wide open shots?

Just because you're open outside the arc doesn't mean you should take it. Why shoot a shot that has a less percentage of going in than to try and make a few more passes so a guy can shoot a shot a few feet away from the basket? Pangos was a bit too liberal with the shooting for the point guard that I think we need this year (if he made more of them, then it might have been a different story). We want our point guard to feed it to where our strengths are... the post.

04ZagFan
10-30-2011, 03:54 PM
Eh. Guys, it was Carrol College... We had a big lead the entire game... Pangos had no reason to turn down open shots...

Besides, the 3 point shot is very, very important. We aren't going to win much without a bunch of capable and willing shooters.

Reborn
10-30-2011, 03:59 PM
Just because you're open outside the arc doesn't mean you should take it. Why shoot a shot that has a less percentage of going in than to try and make a few more passes so a guy can shoot a shot a few feet away from the basket? Pangos was a bit too liberal with the shooting for the point guard that I think we need this year (if he made more of them, then it might have been a different story). We want our point guard to feed it to where our strengths are... the post.

Meech must have been one of your favorite all-time zag players then. Forget about guys like Dan Dickau, Blake Step, Matt Santangelo, Derek Raivio Richie Frahm. Forget about Gonzaga being called Guard U.

I'm sorry! I just could't pass this one up!

MickMick
10-30-2011, 05:09 PM
Meech must have been one of your favorite all-time zag players then. Forget about guys like Dan Dickau, Blake Step, Matt Santangelo, Derek Raivio Richie Frahm. Forget about Gonzaga being called Guard U.

I'm sorry! I just could't pass this one up!

I agree Reborn.

The best GU guards have always taken open shots.

Count me as one of those that had no problem with Pangos' shot selection. I'll bet there are more than just a few of us. It wasn't as if he was off balance or had a guy draped all over him. Kevin thought he was taking good shots. Dickau thought KP was taking good shots. Reborn, a former GU player, thought KP was taking good shots. I didn't hear any negative comments from Few about the shots. In general, people that understand basketball thought KP was taking good shots.

Last season I was furious that our PG wouldn't take open shots. The scouting report was that you could sag off and provide inside help. Teams didn't respect the threat. You have to take open shots to keep the defense honest. You have to get it on film so that opposing teams spend valuable time preparing for it.

It is like a football QB throwing deep a couple times to keep the coverage honest. Sure it is a low percentage play, but just the threat of it really opens things up underneath.

bigblahla
10-30-2011, 05:14 PM
I agree Reborn.

The best GU guards have always taken open shots.

Count me as one of those that had no problem with Pangos' shot selection. I'll bet there are more than just a few of us. It wasn't as if he was off balance or had a guy draped all over him. Kevin was taking good shots. Last season I was furious that are PG wouldn't take open shots.

Ditto!

Go!! Zags!!!

zagfan24
10-30-2011, 05:26 PM
You have to take open shots to keep the defense honest. You have to get it on film so that teams spend valuable time preparing for it.

It is like a football QB throwing deep a couple times to keep the coverage honest. Just the threat of it really opens things up underneath.

Great analogy...agree 100%

Also, FWIW, I think it's been really nice having one consolidated post-game thread. Really enjoying the comments about the game.

Baseline
10-30-2011, 06:33 PM
If Pangos had been hot and hit the majority of his shots we would be celebrating him as the new PG with great skills, not if he shot too much. Amazing how things can change based on a few balls going in. The kid needs a little time before any real decisions or perceptions are viable.

ldszagfan
10-30-2011, 06:37 PM
Meech must have been one of your favorite all-time zag players then. Forget about guys like Dan Dickau, Blake Step, Matt Santangelo, Derek Raivio Richie Frahm. Forget about Gonzaga being called Guard U.

I'm sorry! I just could't pass this one up!

I'll be honest... after I reread my post, it made it seem as though I think the 3-point is not needed. That wasn't my intention. BUT there's a difference between taking an open look and always shooting when you're "open". What I mean is that Pangos was getting colder the longer he stayed out on the court. I mean, he was only out on the court for 18 minutes and attempted 9 three-point shots - that's an average of 19 attempts in 40 minutes! And you know what? That's twice as many attempts than the highest average of 3PA per game last year (Kevin Foster at 9.6) - That's way too many attempts if you're only only hitting 33% of those shots. When you're cold, give it to someone else who's warmer (whether inside or beyond the arc).

ExtremeJim
10-30-2011, 07:00 PM
Count me as one of those that had no problem with Pangos' shot selection. I'll bet there are more than just a few of us. It wasn't as if he was off balance or had a guy draped all over him. Kevin thought he was taking good shots. Dickau thought KP was taking good shots. Reborn, a former GU player, thought KP was taking good shots. I didn't hear any negative comments from Few about the shots. In general, people that understand basketball thought KP was taking good shots.

...of that #4 jersey, also from the eastern provinces of Canada, who took about one-third of the shots he should have the whole time he was a Zag.

To even things out, Pangos will need to take three times as many as he should. Few probably told him, "You want to wear that number? OK, but the last guy shorted me about 200 trey attempts while he was here. You have to make up for it."

Baldwinzag
10-30-2011, 07:00 PM
What I mean is that Pangos was getting colder the longer he stayed out on the court. I mean, he was only out on the court for 18 minutes and attempted 9 three-point shots - that's an average of 19 attempts in 40 minutes! And you know what? That's twice as many attempts than the highest average of 3PA per game last year (Kevin Foster at 9.6) - That's way too many attempts if you're only only hitting 33% of those shots. When you're cold, give it to someone else who's warmer (whether inside or beyond the arc).

In all fairness, he hit 3/3 from downtown during Kraziness and won a 3pt contest in practice by hitting 21 3pt shots in 60 secs. He was 3/9 vs Carroll College, yet could go 4/6 the next game...he's taking good, open shots.

http://www.hoopzonebasketball.com/Store/mals/posters/Poster101-8.5x11.jpg

It was an exhibition game, we were up by 20+ pts, & KP had 15 mins to make the most of an opportunity...why not pull the trigger & let 'er rip?! The other option at PG was 0/4 from the field, quiet, almost too quiet, and our 2010 PG wouldn't have even attempted a shot & Carroll would have triple-teamed our bigs...I like the new wave of confidence. It'll pay off...trust me.

willandi
10-30-2011, 07:37 PM
Pangos made 3 of 9 from three, 33%. If just 1 of the rim jobs had gone in he's 44% and we are all cheering. It's one game, and one that doesn't even count. Let's wait until the 11th when it matters, before we get our angst caught in our butt cracks like so many panties, or jocky shorts.
:cheers:

bostonzagfan
10-30-2011, 08:21 PM
my only issue with shot selection in regard to Pangos was that some of them came too early in the shot clock. A semi-open three from the freshman point guard with 25+ seconds on the shot clock is not what I like. If it was 15 seconds left on the shot clock, then by all means fire away.

but I think everyone here has played pick up with the point guard who takes the ball up and guns a three right away. completely screws everything up for the team. I could potentially see Sacre/Harris becoming annoyed if Pangos often pulls up from three before the ball has been passed once.

Not to mention the fact that Sacre and Harris are such high percentage players... we need to get them the ball as much as we can, especially against smaller teams.

My concern is a small one, not a large one. I wouldn't be surprised if the circumstances of the game were why he shot that early in the shot clock (exhibition, lead, inferior opponent).

ps. stop worrying about bell jr. he just missed a couple of shots. his D looks good.

sittingon50
10-30-2011, 09:22 PM
fellas. Don't watch the 2nd half. He was 3-6 from deep in the 1st half when the Zags scored 51 & settled the issue.

maynard g krebs
10-30-2011, 09:54 PM
Please don't twist my words. I said "If Pagos can be a little less selfish" and went on with an explaination of the duties of a point guard. I did NOT say Pangos was selfish. He did take one our two shots, he could of run a play. He is a freshmen and will learn. Maybe you think of term in black and white, I don't.

In the game thread, you wrote "Pangos does look a bit selfish". (Post#38 in that thread) That was the entirety of that particular post. If leaving out the qualifier "a bit" is twisting your words and thinking in black and white, I'm guilty. To me, a bit selfish is selfish, like a bit pregnant is pregnant. And my opinion is that anyone who thought KP played even "a bit" selfish is "a bit" wrong. Or in black and white, just plain wrong.

If I was KP, I'd have found your post(s) offensive. If you think he took bad shots, you can say that without using unnecessary pejoratives.

MDABE80
10-30-2011, 10:11 PM
Things said "in game" aren't what might be said upon further sober consideration. :)

Doesn't mean much anyway....

Honestly though, in most games, Pangos will make those shots. He's good for 15 -20 pts if left open.

ZagNative
10-30-2011, 10:30 PM
Is this the way it's going to be all season? With a couple of posters dominating the discussion? Posts in this thread:

04ZagFan 18
JohnnyGonzaga 14

Sheesh! Enough already. I mean, don't you get tired of hearing the sound of your own tiny adorable voices after a while?

jim77
10-31-2011, 08:20 AM
Those shots we're taken within the context of the situation and we're good shots. The think I like about KP is his decisiveness..the kid does NOT hesitate. A PG who isn't sure when to shoot or is hesitant won't be a very good PG. If they don't "D" you KP...let em fly! The other teams are gonna know real soon that they had better put somebody on KP or else.....the days of 4 on 5 are over. Besides, the kid has a really nice looking shot....not quite MM...but good.;)

Zag@LMU
10-31-2011, 11:40 AM
You made me laugh on that one. I am not sure being pregnant is the same thing. How about thinking in terms of "a bit slow", verses slow? A slow runner to me, would be someone who has no chance of winning a race, without all the other runners dropping down dead first, where as a "bit" slow has a chance, if he is not facing elite competition.

A bit selfish, just means he could look a little more for a play before shooting. I also said, I understand the pressure he was under, so it is no cut down. Just want to see him become a great PG ASAP. We need one, or two. Why would Pangos read this board? No, he will be paying attention to what experts in college hoops, who get paid for their opinions.

Don't know why you are so offended by my opinion, but you really should understand that it is mine, not yours

Speaking from personal experience, you would be surprised at the reach that this board has inside the student athlete community.

maynard g krebs
10-31-2011, 11:44 AM
You made me laugh on that one. I am not sure being pregnant is the same thing. How about thinking in terms of "a bit slow", verses slow? A slow runner to me, would be someone who has no chance of winning a race, without all the other runners dropping down dead first, where as a "bit" slow has a chance, if he is not facing elite competition.

A bit selfish, just means he could look a little more for a play before shooting. I also said, I understand the pressure he was under, so it is no cut down. Just want to see him become a great PG ASAP. We need one, or two. Why would Pangos read this board? No, he will be paying attention to what experts in college hoops, who get paid for their opinions.

Don't know why you are so offended by my opinion, but you really should understand that it is mine, not yours

Fair enough, I guess; we differ on semantics. Selfish, to any degree, is to me the worst thing you can call a player, worse than soft, lazy, etc. It's a loaded word imo.

When I play with a guy who comes down and chucks up shots, it's no fun. But I didn't see that. Neither did Dickau. You're certainly free to your opinion. And you're free to use the word selfish if you wish. And I'm free to say I think you should make your point without using words that sound like bashing.

This is subjective, but the way Dickau complimented and defended Pangos, it seemed that he saw a lot of himself in KP. And he said he'd take the shots KP was taking.

That's the last I'll say on it.

rennis
10-31-2011, 11:53 AM
And neither DIckau or Satangelo were the athlete Pargo was....
.

Correct. Santangelo (don't forget the first 'n') was a better athlete than Pargo. In every facet of the game save for tomahawk jams.

:)

ZagsGoZags
11-01-2011, 12:13 AM
Dear 04ZagFan and Johnny Gonzaga

I believe in free speech
My opinion is that the board is here for people expressing their views without being put down for it

A person can always:
skip over what they don't like

go contribute to a different thread without trying to control those who are on a roll in one thread

pass judgment on others, make putdowns of others, and see how far it gets in controlling the behavior of others who are obviously into it

I say go for it!!

ZagsGoZags
11-01-2011, 12:25 AM
somebody said we are Final Four at the 3 position

when I challenged this he gave, as evidence, that EH could do it because ...

a previous post claimed Elias Harris could do a great job at the 3


since when is a previous poster on this board a supportive argument?
Harris has not played the 3 for any length of time for GU
there is no evidence he would be Final Four material

when he did play out there for awhile, he was brought back in

If he plays in NBA I think it will be as a maverick 4 like Sir Charles Barkley or Dennis Rodman who are his height, and thick

Elias performing as Final Four at the 3 position is dreaming, in my opinion

Zag79
11-01-2011, 12:33 AM
interesting thoughts on the fellas in the first game of the season, i agree and disagree with many thoughts... :lmao: in all seriousness, i loved what i saw. the vets look all that and then some, sacre and carter will do big things this season. elias finally looks completely healthy again, he was leaping and gliding all over the floor like his freshman year. the new guys are really impressing me, pangos is already making me wonder how david will keep his starting spot. i dont think he looked selfish at all, i want a player that takes and thinks he will make the open three. he makes them at a clip he should have the green light for the most part. spangler really surprised me, a double double in your first game is nothing to take lightly. he reminds me alot of cory, a couple years in the weight room and hes going to be a beast. bell didnt show me anything yet, but hes too good to have missed on so im not worried one bit. drag is full of energy and seems to be good but not great at a lot of things. i think he will fill the stat line while not standing out per se. for the first game of the season i was thrilled with the energy, chemistry, and want. many exhibition games leave the crowd wondering what the problem is, and its not until the second half that we pull away. this group seems to hit the boards hard, defend better than most zag teams, and has a knack for passing up a good shot for a better one. i know we are young and there is much work to be done, but i have to admit this team has got me pretty excited. seems as if we have quite the "good" problem to have as far as who gets minutes and competing for a spot.

04ZagFan
11-01-2011, 08:21 AM
Correct. Santangelo (don't forget the first 'n') was a better athlete than Pargo. In every facet of the game save for tomahawk jams.

:)

I think you're misunderstanding what I mean when I use the term "athlete." I'm strictly talking athleticism. Pargo could dunk over people... We all saw his highlight dunks and physical abilities...

Trust me, I remember Santangelo WELL. One of my all time favorite Zags, probably the best PG this school has ever had along with Stockton... But Santangelo wasn't going to dunk over people.. Not that that's needed to be a great player, but that was how I was using the term "athlete." Santangelo was a fantastic athlete, yes.. but an even better basketball player. I would argue it might even be the contrary for Pargo.

My entire point was we don't need a PG that can dunk over PFs... But we do need a PG who has very good athleticism. Hopefully Pangos can be that guy.

Edited to add about Elias and the 3 position.... He's not a 3, guys.. His NBA future will depend on his ability to put the ball in the basket. If he can shoot a little, defend a little, rebound a little, and score A LOT, with his athleticism, there is a spot for him in the NBA, despite him not having a defined position.. It seems like people around here aren't getting that. There are plenty of NBA players right now without a real position, and the ones I am thinking about don't have 1/2 the athleticism and scoring ability as Elias. Will he be an all star SF, or PF? Never... But he can make a darn good living scoring the basketball.. 82 game schedule, LOTS of minutes... Plenty of teams would kill for a "tweener" to score the basketball in situations.

TheGonzagaFactor
11-01-2011, 09:39 AM
somebody said we are Final Four at the 3 position

when I challenged this he gave, as evidence, that EH could do it because ...

a previous post claimed Elias Harris could do a great job at the 3


since when is a previous poster on this board a supportive argument?
Harris has not played the 3 for any length of time for GU
there is no evidence he would be Final Four material

when he did play out there for awhile, he was brought back in

If he plays in NBA I think it will be as a maverick 4 like Sir Charles Barkley or Dennis Rodman who are his height, and thick

Elias performing as Final Four at the 3 position is dreaming, in my opinion

How can a player be Final Four material? Is there a one-on-one tournament I don't know about?

RenoZag
11-01-2011, 10:09 AM
Is this the way it's going to be all season?



Guess we'll find out soon enough, ZN. . .

ZagsGoZags
11-01-2011, 04:19 PM
Seemed like Pargo not only dunked over people

but also through people

DeSmet Penthouse
11-01-2011, 06:49 PM
04ZagFan,
I agree with your point but disagree with your example. Matt Santangelo's vert = 43". Jeremy Pargo's vert = 37".

Matt Santangelo was almost certainly the single greatest raw athlete in GU basketball history. Here's the numbers from the NBA Draft Combine for the last decade +. See for yourself.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?year=All&sort2=DESC&draft=&pos=&source=All&sort=12

Matt's numbers are ridiculous. His only real competition for best athlete in the last 11 years of the NBA Combine is from Nate Robinson. Sorry for the thread hijack, just had to right a wrong.

MDABE80
11-01-2011, 06:52 PM
10 Days till the next game!!! Hint hint!!

04ZagFan
11-01-2011, 06:52 PM
04ZagFan,
I agree with your point but disagree with your example. Matt Santangelo's vert = 43". Jeremy Pargo's vert = 37".

Matt Santangelo was almost certainly the single greatest raw athlete in GU basketball history. Here's the numbers from the NBA Draft Combine for the last decade +. See for yourself.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?year=All&sort2=DESC&draft=&pos=&source=All&sort=12

Matt's numbers are ridiculous. His only real competition for best athlete in the last 11 years of the NBA Combine is from Nate Robinson. Sorry for the thread hijack, just had to right a wrong.

Holy crap! I knew Santangelo was athletic, but WOW. I guess he just didn't show off his ability as much as Pargo did....

MDABE80
11-01-2011, 08:13 PM
Oh yes he did.:) Just wasn't showy until he got GU to the E 8....when it counted. Much better player.

coolhandzag
11-02-2011, 08:31 AM
Observations, just two. First, invest in Kraft foods.

Second, the basketball season is like eating an elephant. One bite at a time. A game against Helana's hometown five doesn't tell the observing masses a whole lot.