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Fonebone
10-24-2011, 05:34 PM
One thing that really jumped out at me was the consistency of GB's shooting form. I truly don't know anything abount the mechanics of good shooting, but there was something different about his shot compared to others. It caught my eye right away. For one thing, in watching the warm ups, every shot looked the same as far as his form and release. He kind of went up, paused for a second in mid air, and then the ball kind of popped out of his hands. His free throw shooting looked very similar in tems of form and release.

I would be interested in comments from those of you who understand the mechanics of shooting and have seen him shoot.

gamagin
10-24-2011, 05:54 PM
“You can practice shooting eight hours a day, but if your technique is wrong, then all you become is very good at shooting the wrong way. Get the fundamentals down and the level of everything you do will rise.” -
Michael Jordan

"Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships." - Michael Jordan

“There are plenty of teams in every sport that have great players and never win titles. Most of the time, those players aren't willing to sacrifice for the greater good of the team. The funny thing is, in the end, their unwillingness to sacrifice only makes individual goals more difficult to achieve. One thing I believe to the fullest is that if you think and achieve as a team, the individual accolades will take care of themselves. Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence win championships." - Michael Jordan

FieldHouseFishHouse
10-24-2011, 06:53 PM
To the first poster:
That doesn't sound like great form to me (haven't seen GBJ except on You Tube). One's shooting motion should be fluid, from the arm through the wrist. Your description reminds me of the "quick aim and fire" style I have seen often from young and very gifted players. They tend to shoot with their eyes and wrists rather than squaring up every time and shooting with their legs and body. Talent can hide some flaws in fundamentals, so can a quick release.
That being said, from the video I have seen Bell's motion seems pretty solid. He puts shots up pretty quick, and appears to have a bit of a low release for a guard (just my opinion, so did Pargo, whereas Ammo had a really nice high release). It's this low release, and the fact that his shot is on the quicker side that makes the ball appear to "pop". He seems to get great backspin on the ball, and quite enough arc.

To the second poster:
???
There are threads devoted to the philosophical/uplifting/inspirational/profound. Then there are the wonkish sections devoted to technical details and sundry minutiae. I think this thread is the later.

Other examples of getting off topic:
-Breaking in to a numbers based RPI, SOS or NCAA seeding thread with a "hey we just need to keep winning and everything will take care of itself".
-Adding "I trust the coaching staff to give playing time to whoever deserves it" to a thread devoted to parsing different lineups.
-Dropping a "Developing good young men and having fun are the objectives of this program" when critiquing the post-season accomplishments of GU and other top tier programs.

Well, I think i just derailed that thread in a way that would piss me off pretty bad if I hadn't written it myself.
Carry on.

04ZagFan
10-24-2011, 07:03 PM
Bell has a great looking stroke. He is ready to go from day 1. We don't get a lot of players like him at Gonzaga. He will improve from year to year obviously, but he's ready to rumble starting Friday night. He's a stud. Same with Pangos, In my opinion.

These two guys are rare. Usually, you see freshmen play and say "he'll be good one day, and can help us at times this year" kind of like David Stockton last year.. But these two guys? I see two high D1 caliber players ready to contribute from the start. Exciting times. For the first time in a while, Gonzaga has recruited 2 guards that don't have many limitations. To think of how many disappointments we've had recently, makes me even more excited for Bell and Pangos.

tobizag
10-25-2011, 06:26 AM
To the first poster:
He puts shots up pretty quick, and appears to have a bit of a low release for a guard (just my opinion, so did Pargo, whereas Ammo had a really nice high release).

i think i mentioned this last winter, in a thread somewhere on here (maybe my imagination) but the few times I saw GBJ play in person while he was at kentridge (against thomas jefferson and kentwood during his senior year) i also noticed his low release. instead of being above his head, it was in front of his face. now, raivio had a similarly low release, though his form was ENTIRELY different. raivio was able to get away with it due to a ridiculously quick trigger, whereas GBJ, during his high school days, relied on his size advantage and big hops to avoid blocks. my question then was how well this would translate to the next level, and whether the coaches would push for an adjustment in form. he has good rise on his jumper, but with bigger guards defending him (especially in the OOC sked) he may run into problems getting off clean looks. we'll see!

CDC84
10-25-2011, 08:59 AM
The thing that Gary has going for him that Derek Raivio didn't is that he can put it on the floor. If opponents crowd him, he can drive past them for scoring opportunities. He can score in the lane and finish near the basket due to his powerful physique. Raivio was more limited.

I always viewed GBJ as being a potentially better version of D-Rav. Maybe not quite as good of a shooter, but possibly better all around.

Baldwinzag
10-25-2011, 09:05 AM
The thing that Gary has going for him that Derek Raivio didn't is that he can put it on the floor. If opponents crowd him, he can drive past them for scoring opportunities. He can score in the lane and finish near the basket due to his powerful physique. Raivio was more limited.

To this day, I swear Raivio must lead Gonzaga in All-Time blocked shots, as in getting your shot blocked.

DR was the best 3pt shooter, FT shooter, ball-handler, & one of the best passers in GU history, but that dude got everything blocked by the basket.

The good news is, he got fouled a lot too...

maynard g krebs
10-25-2011, 10:29 AM
with bigger guards defending him (especially in the OOC sked) he may run into problems getting off clean looks. we'll see!

Auburn had Kevin Henderson and Iszia (sp?) Johnson, both 6'3 or 6'4 and as athletic as most defenders in D1, alternating on, and often doubling GB in the state tournament game last year, and he scored 19 in the first half, with 3-4 3's, then just passed because they had a big lead. With GB's size, quickness, and ability to break down a defense, I see this as a non issue. If defenders crowd him, he's by them, as CDC said. If Dickau, for example, could get shots off, I doubt GB will have a problem.

rennis
10-25-2011, 01:23 PM
the only shooter with a wonkier form than DRav coming into GU was Bankhead.

But they fixed him. ;)

maynard g krebs
10-25-2011, 04:22 PM
As to getting shots off, I was just thinking about Jeremiah Dominguez of Portland State. Five ft six with and shot a set shot from the hip, but he had a jab step that left defenders falling backward because they were so afraid of his passing when he got in the lane. One dribble, jab step, step back for a wide open 3, time after time.

A high release, like Adam's, is really more of an asset on midrange shots when a bigger defender is trying to block it. Guards with a lower release point usually have moves, like JD above, to compensate, and have worked on ways to get their shot for a long time.

Fonebone
10-25-2011, 04:54 PM
I'm still not clear if Bell's form on his shot, besides being a low release, is good form, great form, bad form, or does it not really matter. Perhaps the question I am asking doesn't make sense, but I assumed that there are certain fundamentals that are part of a good shooter, like squaring up to the basket etc. If so, from what you have seen, what do you thing of his form. As I said in starting this thread, his form seems extremely consistent, and it seems to have an unusual look to it

Thanks

Angelo Roncalli
10-25-2011, 05:01 PM
Gary's mechanics are pretty good, but his shot is flat. It's being worked on.

BTW, the coaches have been working hard with Sam Dower to develop his right hand, especially a little jump hook. He's making some real progress.

Reborn
10-25-2011, 06:57 PM
I think the best form for shooting the ball is from above the head. The release of the ball begins by cocking your wrist back like pulling the trigger back on a pistol. I guess that's where it got it's name, shot,from a gun. The majority of the shot is from the legs, so you to can get proper balance and a quick jump to get you off the floor, and finally to the wrist. The legs help you position yourself so you are on balance during your shot. Your body can not be leaning to one side or the other. The staighter up and down your body is the better your balance will be. The wrist is pulled back like a trigger and then snapped. The last part of the shot is the follow through, and the best way to discribe it is the way Gonzaga describes it, it's called the parachute followthrough. The wrist is snapped and then forms a parachute during the follow through. The hand is held in this parachute position for a second or two.

The less the arm is used during the shot, imo, the better is your form. I think one of the keys to shooting is getting a good arch (like Morrison's). The higher the arch, the softer the shot is and thus giving it an opportunity to bounce on the rib a time or two and still go in. A soft shot is also much easier to tip in my one of your teammates.

I forgot another very important factor. The ELBOW. The elbow needs to be straight and perpendicular to the shoulder. If the elbow begins to move out, your shot will begin to miss.

When I shot the ball 90% of my focus was in my fingertips and on using my wrist properly and getting a good snap and good release and followthrough. If you have shot that shot a thousand times yu know the feel of that shot in your fingertips. I could at times shoot without looking at the rim by simply putting my focus on the wrist and my fingertips.

I think some people may be surprised about how important proper mechanics are. Serious ballplayers spend hours and hours in the gym shooting, trying to get the mechanics down properly. A fact I learned once was that it takes doing something 1000 times in order to get it into the subconscious, which is where we want the shot....It has to be automatic at some point. I rarely attempted a shot during a game that I had not practiced at least a thousand times. And if you want to be a good player you had better have a lot of places from the court where you can shoot from, and you had better have a variety of moves to the places where you want to shoot it from. It would probably surprise you how many times I shot layups in my career...and i had a good variety of ways to make that shot.

By the time you reach the Div 1 level of play you had better have a very quick release or you WILL get your shot blocked. So the sooner you can begin to practice a quick release the better you are. The speed at the Div 1 level is very amazing.

bostonzagfan
10-25-2011, 08:29 PM
reborn, what level did you play at? just curious. seem to have good knowledge on shooting.

Hoopaholic
10-25-2011, 08:49 PM
havent seen Bell yet this year, but from watching him last year the "hitch" that was described was seen last year and is a direct causation to a flat shot in that shooters who have a hitch in their shot tend to "push" the basketball outward after the hitch thus creating flat shots versus an arched shot.

These hitches are usually developed in younger kids who are out tryiing to shoot distance shots before they physically can create the shot from their hips and legs.

Great shooters with a nice arched shot are very fluid in motion from the time the decision to shoot occur to the full followthrough with the index finger ending up "inside " the rim holding the follow through.

Reborn talks about the elbow....where the elbow is pointed is where the shot will occur(elbow and index finger are aligned together) thus the reason to keep the elbow in perpendicular to the index finger in the shooting form

The hitch can and I am sure will be worked out for Bell as the games I watched it was not an overt hitch, but definitely was not a complete smooth fluid motion

he is going to be a good one on offense, hoping his defensive intensity increases to the level of his offensive output and then you will truly see a top notched player

FuManShoes
10-25-2011, 10:05 PM
Ammo was a prolific scorer but not a great shooter. Yes he canned threes from mid court and went bonkers plenty of times but the midrange game was his specialty and the teardrop runner his weapon of choice and his form was unique. When he got to the NBA they tried to make him a spot up shooter and it didn't work. Not trying to rehash his career or bash his game, just saying if you want a perimeter shooter to emulate, look at Fraham or even Moenninghoff.

rennis
10-26-2011, 09:30 AM
Frahm has the prettiest shot I've ever seen in person.

Well, besides Ray Allen. But Richie is 2nd.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/multimedia/photo_gallery/0802/beck.bestshots/images/LED02S(2).jpg

We'd be very lucky if Bell had anything like it.

edit: Few even says it... http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/gallery/featured/GAL1000012/1/index.htm

04ZagFan
10-26-2011, 09:38 AM
Ammo was a prolific scorer but not a great shooter. Yes he canned threes from mid court and went bonkers plenty of times but the midrange game was his specialty and the teardrop runner his weapon of choice and his form was unique. When he got to the NBA they tried to make him a spot up shooter and it didn't work. Not trying to rehash his career or bash his game, just saying if you want a perimeter shooter to emulate, look at Fraham or even Moenninghoff.

Have to disagree. While Adam might not have had textbook form, he WAS a great shooter. Reggie Miller is another example of having an ugly shot, but being a terrific shooter.

Not to say I disagree with your point to not emulate his shot, because I would agree there are far better people to look to for that, but there are some examples of people with less than perfect mechanics that are great shooters.

Reborn
10-26-2011, 02:57 PM
I played basketball at Gonzaga University....1966-69

duper
10-26-2011, 08:43 PM
I saw a kid in a Vegas AAU tourney in the late 90's named Brent Nelson who had the most perfect shot I have ever seen in person, ended up being quite successful at Florida. I would agree Fram was probably the most perfect shot I've seen at GU. A guy named Jarrod Davis from GU was close.

PS.. probably just because its fresh in my mind but when Klay Thompson got his feet set he a had pretty shot.

FieldHouseFishHouse
10-26-2011, 09:10 PM
Ammo was a prolific scorer but not a great shooter. Yes he canned threes from mid court and went bonkers plenty of times but the midrange game was his specialty and the teardrop runner his weapon of choice and his form was unique. When he got to the NBA they tried to make him a spot up shooter and it didn't work. Not trying to rehash his career or bash his game, just saying if you want a perimeter shooter to emulate, look at Fraham or even Moenninghoff.

I can't find much here to agree with. Ammo had a great touch on his shot, great rotation and arc. Maybe his elbow was a little off kilter, his feet weren't always even or squared to the basket.
But the shots went in, a lot of them, and they were things of beauty.
His lack of success in the NBA didn't have much to do with his ability to shoot the ball (defense, rebounding and every other part of his game needed work IMO).
As for spot-up shooting, I don't remember Morrison ever spotting up. He hit shots with multiple guys in his face, from every angle, off of every kind of move you can imagine.
Ammo's college career was a highlight real. Watch Sportcenter's Top-10 plays and count how many "fundamentally sound" maneuvers you see.
Maybe I am splitting hairs over "form" and "ability", but if I were able to transplant Ammo's form/ability to a young player I was coaching, I would do it in a heartbeat.

mgadfly
10-27-2011, 08:36 AM
I can't find much here to agree with. Ammo had a great touch on his shot, great rotation and arc. Maybe his elbow was a little off kilter, his feet weren't always even or squared to the basket.
But the shots went in, a lot of them, and they were things of beauty.
His lack of success in the NBA didn't have much to do with his ability to shoot the ball (defense, rebounding and every other part of his game needed work IMO).
As for spot-up shooting, I don't remember Morrison ever spotting up. He hit shots with multiple guys in his face, from every angle, off of every kind of move you can imagine.
Ammo's college career was a highlight real. Watch Sportcenter's Top-10 plays and count how many "fundamentally sound" maneuvers you see.
Maybe I am splitting hairs over "form" and "ability", but if I were able to transplant Ammo's form/ability to a young player I was coaching, I would do it in a heartbeat.

The torn ACL probably didn't help his chances in the NBA either. He did put up 30 points against Indiana as a rookie. His game needed work. But I think we sometimes forget that he still had a great chance to stick in the league when he blew up his knee guarding Luke Walton in that exhibition game.