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View Full Version : Will depth change the defensive strategy?



HillBillyZag
10-15-2011, 10:42 AM
Perhaps more half court press and "in your face " defense on shooters will rein in the three point barrages that have plagued us in the past?, and will picking a up a quick foul or two necessarily result in the extended bench time of years past? If the Frosh live up to expectations I would guess yes and no?
What do you think?

MDABE80
10-15-2011, 11:02 AM
I think the new kids will be out there past the circle chasing down 3 pt shooters.
I think we have enough fresh legs to press effectively if Few wants.
I think the bigs will be more than happy to "greet" anyone who comes to visit the key.

BroncoZAG615
10-15-2011, 12:22 PM
Whatever the coaches and players decide! Am I right?

zag67
10-15-2011, 12:38 PM
Agree Bronco. But dreaming is also fun. Think of it. They could have a group of kids that are a pressing team, rebounding team, 3 point shooting group, 3 or 4 guard team, big team ....

The coaches can use this group to cause many mistmatches for opposing coaches and to replace players when they may not be on the top of their game. But we are going to have to remember that they are going to be young and look great one time and not the next. But I think that this is going to be a super team to follow.,

Ekrub
10-15-2011, 12:50 PM
Whatever the coaches and players decide! Am I right?

+1

This is all silly speculation until we see how everything turns out.
:ban:

siliconzag
10-15-2011, 01:54 PM
What is defense?

Sili

VinnyZag
10-15-2011, 10:37 PM
Did they have a defensive strategy before?

willandi
10-16-2011, 08:30 AM
When you get to de fence, shoot de ball!

DCZag
10-16-2011, 08:43 AM
Haven't we been down this road? I'm afraid I'm in the wait and see camp on our ability to play sustained pressure on D

1973Zag
10-16-2011, 11:02 AM
Didn't we have the same discussion ,pre season last year?

1973Zag
10-16-2011, 11:09 AM
Beat me to it D.C. Totally agree.

Reborn
10-16-2011, 11:24 AM
I think the toughest thing to adust to in the college game is the speed, especially for the guards. the game is sooo much faster, and the players so much faster and quicker than most college kids are used to seeing. I also think that the size of some of the guards is a huge thing to adjust to. In this aspect I think Pangos has the easiest time to adjust to the college game because he has played against so many older players. I think he says so also in the interview I saw with him. He has high IQ and that includes Defense too.

I do not see that the depth will necessarily improve the defense. I just feel that for most Freshmen the adjustment to the college game is slow. I think Bell will also be good, but to think he will be as good as Gray is wishful thinking. I won't be surprised if we see more zone this year. I also hear that Landry-Edi is tough defensively so we will just have to wait and see. I do not consider KO or Sam Dower to be good defensive players. Olynyk in fact has been a fouling machine. He's way too slow. I expect Spanler to play and I think he may be good defensively. At least I hope so.

I think the schedule helps us more than the depth of the players. Many of the teams we will play are rebuilding too, so that helps us. Also we will be playing some of our toughest opponents early in the season and that also helps. Im glad we are not playing Memphis or Duke or UCONN.

primal23
10-16-2011, 01:53 PM
So I'm confused is opinion and conjecture allowed or not?

Pargo the Destroyer
10-16-2011, 02:40 PM
Zags are not an elite athletic team, therefore, pressing will most likely get them killed. With the infusion of new players plus the loss of 2 upperclass starters I'd expect to see more of the same defensive issues that have plagued the team the last few years. I hope I'm wrong.

JPtheBeasta
10-16-2011, 03:29 PM
Pack it in and hope someone doesn't get hot from 3 has been the modus operandi for years. The problem is that someone always seems to get hot. We are still small at the point of attack, but we got slower. We have had better personnel for trapping in the past and not done it, so I don't know what would change things this years. In general, with the void created with the loss of our two best defensive players being being filled by two unknowns, it would seem that our defense would get worse before it gets better. Our offense should be better, so hopefully that makes up for it.

zagfan24
10-16-2011, 03:44 PM
Pack it in and hope someone doesn't get hot from 3 has been the modus operandi for years. The problem is that someone always seems to get hot.

I think that's one inherent problem with the "wait until they get hot" strategy. With enough open looks, a lot of high-level d1 guys can get into a good rhythm...and once they do, throwing more intense defense at them does little to stop the barrage.

I'm hopeful our strong interior defense will mean fewer instance of guards helping down low, and instead sticking to their man on the perimeter.

roxdoc
10-16-2011, 09:30 PM
Ah yes - will it be inside the box (our bigs aren't very good so we must help them out at all costs) or something new (we have very good big men, good backups, and if needs be fouls to give, so lets ask our guards to stay on the perimeter).....just go for a new approach!

75Zag
10-17-2011, 06:32 AM
If GU's inside defense depends on the shot blocking ability of our inside players Sacre, Harris and Dower, I think we need to hope they all make substantial improvement this year. Sacre had 66 blocks last year, Dower had 26 and Harris had 12. Other than maybe Sacre, I don't see those numbers striking fear into the hearts of any top-10 teams. UConn had 3 players over 50 and one at 25.

Go Bulldogs! Get Bigger!

CDC84
10-17-2011, 08:08 AM
Just play solid, halfcourt man to man D and for once, please guard the 3 point line.

If that gets accomplished, I'll be more than satisfied.

229SintoZag
10-17-2011, 08:36 AM
I am hoping I don't see this year:

We are playing a zone defense. Opposing team rotates the ball to one side or another, then passes the ball down to a big, who quickly reverses and kicks the ball out to a shooter on the baseline on the opposite side of the court. After which, a forlorn Gonzaga defender sprints out to try to cover this guy, who is inevitably wide open, but to no avail: 3 points, nothing but net.

Another version of this is the same as above, except rather than an entry pass to a big, a guard simply drives to the rack and dishes to the wide open shooter on the baseline.

Gonzaga has not figured out how to avoid this scenario in the ten years I have been watching them play basketball. I am hoping that this year is the year.

VinnyZag
10-17-2011, 12:31 PM
I am hoping I don't see this year:

We are playing a zone defense.

Me, neither.

coolhandzag
10-17-2011, 01:07 PM
The questions was will increased depth result in a larger presence on the defensive side.

The answer simply is, no.

I have seen no reason for Zags coaching staff to change its mode of operandi. Pack it in, don't let the opponent put it on the deck and take your chances with the three.

In my opinion the shooting skills of DI players have expanded to the point that each team usually has two or more players that can hit from beyond the arc. Causing real problems for a team that won't (can't) contain the parameter. This is evidenced by the numerous times players have gone for career nights from beyond the arc on the Zags.

The Zags have historically changed career 33% shooters into previously referenced "Zag Killers".

We'll see what the season has in store

CDC84
10-17-2011, 01:29 PM
Last season the Zags ranked at #297 in the nation (out of 345 teams) in defending the 3 ball. They allowed opponents to shoot 36.9% from three. Schools like Norfolk State, Stetson, SIU-Edwardsville and Farleigh Dickinson defended the 3 better than the Zags. And what was most disturbing is that many of the teams that killed GU were not going to kill GU in any other way than thru perimeter shooting. They knew it was coming, and still they couldn't defend it.

I know the Zags were terrific at defending the paint last year, but I would rather give up some shots in the paint than be giving up 36.9% from 3. Especially when GU has big guys like Sacre, Harris, Olynyk, Dower, etc. along the baseline. The guards really have no reason to sag into the middle. They have rim protection in back of them.

roxdoc
10-17-2011, 07:25 PM
Amen - Perhaps in previous years we didn't have the personnel/depth, but this year we do. If we continue to let every tom dick and harry shoot 36+% on threes its not on the players, it is on the coaches. You don't have an E-8 or a FF with those kind of numbers.

Coaches, lets get a little different defensive scheme - we know you have it in you!

Looking forward to a great season!!!!

UberZagFan
10-17-2011, 10:54 PM
Will depth change the defensive strategy?

No. Plain and simple.


p.s. Uber needs to say more on this. It's not so much zone but the dribble penetration and giving up the extra pass. But from whatever defense the issue arises from the problem is this staff's insistence on the problem being the 2nd or 3rd defender's failure to rotate or recognize the ball movement fast enough. The focus should be on the initial defender. When a guy gets beat off the dribble and the 2nd comes to help and then the guard with the ball dishes off to the wide open 3pt shooter, this staff always faults the "3rd" defender who fails to rotate fast enough. This is "prevent" defense in its worse sense. But the bigger deal is the message it sends: it's not the initial defender's fault who created this causal factor--it's the last guy's fault who fails to cover someone that he shouldn't be worrying about.

Granted, defense at the DI level is about understanding rotations but there are extremes..at some point the initial defender that get beat off the dribble needs to feel the pain of the staff (and the pine of the bench) and not the third guy that has to race out to defend the three.

The other big issue is a failure to realize who you can sag off of and who you can't -- no offense to last year's point but you never an opposing defender up in his grill past the 3pt line but you routinely saw that type of in your face "D" against last year's "2" guard.

awberke
10-18-2011, 09:08 AM
I've been battling with what our defense should look like this year.

I think we should be given credit for being an almost top 10 2-pt defense team last year (#11 kenpom).

I feel like few's position is its hard to be 3-pt shooting team all the time. Eventually you'll miss shots.

What i didn't like seeing last year was the team's inability to rotate on the perimeter when a defender is forced to help.

I really hope something changes because i do believe we lost some really good defenders in Meech and Steve.

JPtheBeasta
10-18-2011, 11:23 AM
... And what was most disturbing is that many of the teams that killed GU were not going to kill GU in any other way than thru perimeter shooting. They knew it was coming, and still they couldn't defend it.



This. And the other stuff you said. The offenses in the WCC, especially, seem to be engineered to get open 3-point looks. Omar was the last guy that could consistantly get shots in against our bigs. Also, so many bigs in this conference are Euro-style step out and shoot type guys. There's no need to pack it in, in my opinion, until someone starts burning us with easy looks inside.

I think it is hard to defend past the 3-point line, not only because of the space that has to be covered physically, but I also think we get sort of conditioned mentally as players growing up to pick up at the 3 point line. So many players have range several feet out from there that you can't stand at the line any more and watch the opposition shoot over you, because they will thrive doing it.

awberke
10-18-2011, 11:45 AM
There's no need to pack it in, in my opinion, until someone starts burning us with easy looks inside.


Other than Rob has trouble keeping his fouls down as it is. But i agree otherwise.

gamagin
10-18-2011, 11:46 AM
Last season the Zags ranked at #297 in the nation (out of 345 teams) in defending the 3 ball. They allowed opponents to shoot 36.9% from three. Schools like Norfolk State, Stetson, SIU-Edwardsville and Farleigh Dickinson defended the 3 better than the Zags. And what was most disturbing is that many of the teams that killed GU were not going to kill GU in any other way than thru perimeter shooting. They knew it was coming, and still they couldn't defend it.

I know the Zags were terrific at defending the paint last year, but I would rather give up some shots in the paint than be giving up 36.9% from 3. Especially when GU has big guys like Sacre, Harris, Olynyk, Dower, etc. along the baseline. The guards really have no reason to sag into the middle. They have rim protection in back of them.

as long as the dominant force in the WCC lets them, every school we play will take threes at every opportunity. Every team recruits/develops downtown shooters & run plays & organizes games around this option.

It's probably the worst kept secret in the nation for teams playing us.

And it's time to discourage this with solid, shot discouraging, if not stopping, defense.

I don't believe there needs to be a trade off (2 points to stop a 3) as much as the bigs stepping up and guarding more space and being more dominant, thus creating less space for our backcourt to have to cover.

mgadfly
10-18-2011, 11:48 AM
I'm predicting we run the same defense that we did last year. And the year before. And so forth...

If we run something different it will be because we have lost a bunch of games and the (extremely successful and comfortable with their system) coaches are forced to change.

Baldwinzag
10-18-2011, 12:27 PM
I was just wondering if defensive strategy will, in turn, effect our depth?

Chew on that for second.

gamagin
10-18-2011, 12:34 PM
I was just wondering if defensive strategy will, in turn, effect our depth?

Chew on that for second.

I think our width & length, especially underneath, but overall, will increase our defensive strategy & our depth.

CDC84
10-18-2011, 01:28 PM
I think it is hard to defend past the 3-point line, not only because of the space that has to be covered physically, but I also think we get sort of conditioned mentally as players growing up to pick up at the 3 point line.

This is also why you should foul to prevent a three point shot attempt during an end of game situation where a 3 can tie the game. It's one of the most compelling arguments for fouling, and yet no one ever mentions it during the "foul or not to foul" debate. When the defense is scrambling back and there's just seconds on the clock, everyone's instinct is to protect the paint, period. The whole defensive setup runs counter to the way players are generally taught to defend. If you're a coach and you don't like fouling in those situations, you must call a timeout and set up your defense to make sure every single player is out beyond the three point line. It's unrealistic to expect your players to defend the 3 point line based on instinct.

DADoZAG
10-18-2011, 02:45 PM
If you're a coach you must call a timeout and set up

Go ZAGS!