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BULLDOG#1
10-14-2011, 06:16 AM
With all the chat of who should start and who should get minutes... somebody described as getting major minutes will in fact have to redshirt. There's too many bodies.

I don't believe there's any way it will be KO (who I think should start). My guess is that it will be Spangler. I know there's a lot of folks hyping the kid, but where is he going to get minutes? Not ahead of Dower, Sacre, Harris, or KO -- where does that leave him?

If Few has to cut this down to 12, how do you think it will stack up? Here's mine:

1. Rob
2. EH
3. Carter
4. KO
5. Sam
6. Stocks
7. MM
8. MK
9 Bell
10. Pangos
11. Hart

12.... gotta be b/w edi/draginis/spangler

since Edi is a transfer and older, it seems like he'd get the nod.
So, I'm guessing that unless MM, MK, or Hart redshirt, the last spot goes to Edi with draginis and spangler redshirting.

Those who think KO should redshirt are crazy. He will be one of the most important pieces to this years' team.

cjm720
10-14-2011, 06:44 AM
I really don't see how coach can make all these kids happy. Every year it seems the battle for minutes gets more and more difficult. That's why Few gets paid the big bucks.

I'm guessing RSs will go to: Draganis, Sarbaugh, and Spangler (like the OP, I don't see how KO would RS over Spangler, regardless of the hype).

Beer_Engineer
10-14-2011, 06:46 AM
From what I hear, Spangler cant be stopped. My bets on Dranginis.

Therunner
10-14-2011, 06:53 AM
We'll RS 3 players this season:

Dranginis (has the D1 skills & shot, yet not the body to last 6 months)

Sarbaugh (just coming off knee surgery & has had ZERO practice w/the guys or coaches)

Olynyk (too deep of position w/more pressing needs i.e. rebounding & defense -- Sacre, Harris, Dower, Spangler, Landry-Edi will round out FC rotation)

KO will be a starting Junior F/C for us the next two seasons -- best interest for him to be considered for Professional career, imo. Does he really want to log 10-15 mins per game AGAIN this season competing with the talent above? Its nothing against KO, its more a compliment to the rest of the guys. He's got two NBA players playing in front of him. He has a much higher ceiling than most and ultimately it'll be his call, but I'd like to see him RS this season. Just my opinion.

Therunner
10-14-2011, 06:58 AM
From what I hear, Spangler cant be stopped. My bets on Dranginis.

As I mentioned this Summer, he's ALREADY one of the strongest players, if not thee strongest, in the weight room.

He put up the 2nd most reps on Bench Press. I still don't know who was first, but I'd place my bets on Sacre.

However, since Guy Landry has arrived on campus, he might have something to say about it as well...

Point is: he's only 18 and ready to compete at this level.

cjm720
10-14-2011, 07:03 AM
KO will be a starting Junior F/C for us the next two seasons -- best interest for him to be considered for Professional career, imo. Does he really want to log 10-15 mins per game AGAIN this season competing with the talent above? Its nothing against KO, its more a compliment to the rest of the guys. He's got two NBA players playing in front of him. He has a much higher ceiling than most and ultimately it'll be his call, but I'd like to see him RS this season. Just my opinion.

If KO redshirts, he's still have Harris, Dower, and Spangler in front of him his junior year.

I sure hope I'm wrong and Spangler's all that and will contribute moreso than KO could, because that would only make us a better team. BUT I just don't see the upside from KO's perspective...

hooter73
10-14-2011, 07:08 AM
man there is a reason we arent recruiting too hard for 2012 isnt there. I originally thought KO was a possibility but just dont see it. It'd probably be really good for his game, education and playing time but I doubt he'll do it and I dont blame him. Spangler is the linch pin in front court playing time. If hes as good as we are hearing, no way he sits and everyone gets less but Hustle and rebounding aside, if his D or O needs some work that may be enough to warrant the RS option.

We know Sarb. will and its a good guess that Kyle will too.

CanadianZagFan
10-14-2011, 07:11 AM
We'll RS 3 players this season:

Dranginis (has the D1 skills & shot, yet not the body to last 6 months)

Sarbaugh (just coming off knee surgery & has had ZERO practice w/the guys or coaches)

Olynyk (too deep of position w/more pressing needs i.e. rebounding & defense -- Sacre, Harris, Dower, Spangler, Landry-Edi will round out FC rotation)

KO will be a starting Junior F/C for us the next two seasons -- best interest for him to be considered for Professional career, imo. Does he really want to log 10-15 mins per game AGAIN this season competing with the talent above? Its nothing against KO, its more a compliment to the rest of the guys. He's got two NBA players playing in front of him. He has a much higher ceiling than most and ultimately it'll be his call, but I'd like to see him RS this season. Just my opinion.

We need rebounding and defense, so we redshirt the teams leader in rebounds per minute last year? If KO is asked to redshirt by the coaches I will have a hard time seeing the future of this program and it will leave a sour taste in my mouth.....and it is not because he is a Canadian either but rather what the coaches are putting importance on.

zag67
10-14-2011, 07:24 AM
Dranginis and Sarbaugh.

I think that the rest will play out. I do not think that Landry or Spangler will redshirt. In the beginning they may not get major minutes, but as the year goes on I think that they will be major contributors to a super season.

And yes like all of us recognize there are not enough minutes and depending on the player, they may not like it. But I hope that as a team they will work out the minutes and in the "blow outs" (which I think there should be many) then the minutes will even out.I also think that the team will put pressure on themselves to get bigger leads, so that everyone can play. Now there may be one more RS, but that would be because that person decides to do it and work on there game and stay in school one year longer.

Baldwinzag
10-14-2011, 07:28 AM
I was under the impression KO was considering a RS season solely for academic purposes/gain i.e., to complete his Masters by the end of his Senior year.

Actually pursuing this path is another story...

BULLDOG#1
10-14-2011, 07:34 AM
Hot debate between Spangler and KO.

Admittedly I haven't seen Spangler play, but I've always thought that KO would be a vital part of this teams' success this year.

I took notice of KO this year when he held his own against a bunch of NBA'ers while playing for the Canadian National Team. He gives you a way more rounded game than Dower and (I've heard) Spangler.

I'm still stunned that anyone would redshirt KO this year. Why not pick MM or MK if it came to that? It would make us thinner at the 3 position, but KO can situationally play there, too...

Ebay
10-14-2011, 07:34 AM
http://www.slipperstillfits.com/2011/8/9/2352843/the-quarterback-from-oklahoma


I don't see how this article was ignored when it comes to the KO redshirting argument. Spangler confirmed hearing about that specific rumor from someone on the team! Not someone from this board. Someone from the team. The redshirt for KO just makes sense. I don't think he would get anymore playing time than last year.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7087891/tim-abromaitis-notre-dame-fighting-irish-forced-sit-4-games

If the coaches have paid attention to the news lately, we should find out sooner rather than later if KO is destined to redshirt. Abromaitis from UND redshirted his sophomore year, but played in the exhibition games to start the season. Apparently due to some obscure rule, only freshmen can play in exhibition games and then qualify for a redshirt once the season begins. I remember Few letting the redshirts suit up and play against exhibition opponents to get a taste of game action in the MAC(but all were freshmen).

Will Kelly play against Carroll College? Will people owe JohnOGU an apology for doubting him about the KO redshirt?

I think all the signs point to him redshirting. Does that make me crazy?

CanadianZagFan
10-14-2011, 07:49 AM
http://www.slipperstillfits.com/2011/8/9/2352843/the-quarterback-from-oklahoma


I don't see how this article was ignored when it comes to the KO redshirting argument. Spangler confirmed hearing about that specific rumor from someone on the team! Not someone from this board. Someone from the team. The redshirt for KO just makes sense. I don't think he would get anymore playing time than last year.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7087891/tim-abromaitis-notre-dame-fighting-irish-forced-sit-4-games

If the coaches have paid attention to the news lately, we should find out sooner rather than later if KO is destined to redshirt. Abromaitis from UND redshirted his sophomore year, but played in the exhibition games to start the season. Apparently due to some obscure rule, only freshmen can play in exhibition games and then qualify for a redshirt once the season begins. I remember Few letting the redshirts suit up and play against exhibition opponents to get a taste of game action in the MAC(but all were freshmen).

Will Kelly play against Carroll College? Will people owe JohnOGU an apology for doubting him about the KO redshirt?

I think all the signs point to him redshirting. Does that make me crazy?

There is nothing concrete in that article, Spangler said he heard it from a fellow player, what weight does that hold. At the high school I coach at we have a player who started the varsity season with us last year as a grade 10 and did not finish the year due to academics. This year as we near tryouts a few players told me he was going to try out for Junior varsity and not Varsity, was it true? I found that this player had matured and he could help our team, so I asked him last night at open gym. His response was that someone put his name on the signup sheet and that he was indeed trying out for Varsity nit JV. So, until Kelly comes out and states he is redshirting, I do not believe any speculation.

CDC84
10-14-2011, 07:54 AM
KO redshirts, he's still have Harris, Dower, and Spangler in front of him his junior year.

The reason for KO to redshirt is because at 7-0 tall, and as a player who is still growing into his body, he's the best candidate on the roster to replace Rob Sacre in the middle. Maybe not the ideal candidate, but the best candidate. Especially with the staff decision to stop recruiting 2012 big men. The other three guys will never be centers because to "make them" centers would be to take away from their respective strengths as players. I know this is especially the case with Dower and Harris. Gonzaga hasn't gotten out of Kelly what he is fully capable of, largely because he's been a perimeter player his whole life. Problem is, he's never going to be a perimeter player at this level. KO would need extensive one on one coaching and to be reinvented as a player in order for the transition to work. Hence, a redshirt year.

I would just hate to see that guy waste his eligibility while trying to figure out how to be a big man at the D-1 level. I know he isn't a dynamic athlete and all that, but he's 7 feet tall and skilled. He also has a good feel for the game and has a good basketball IQ. There aren't many guys like him throughout college basketball these days. It might be worth the risk to have him sit out a year.

The bottom line is that the main frontcourt rotation is going to be Sacre/Harris/Dower. Whether it's Spangler or Olynyk, the 4th guy probably isn't going to see enormous minutes. Kelly's eligibility is a precious commodity right now. He doesn't have much time left.

cggonzaga
10-14-2011, 07:55 AM
Unless Spangler is going to get 15-20 minutes a game, I don't see why we wouldn't redshirt him. Maybe at almost any other program in the country this wouldn't be a consideration but we are so deep at the position. He has at least 4 guys in front of him. Is he really so good that he jumps ahead of Dower or Kelly? Without seeing him play, and knowing what the others are capable of in actual college games, I just don't think so. Redshirt him, let him bang with Rob and the others for a year, develop an all around game and then he stars as a redshirt freshmen much like Sam did last year.

Not to overlook the bigs we have this season but how dominating will Sam, Kelly and Ryan be next season. Those are some punishing bigs that will compliment one another exceptionally well.

CDC84
10-14-2011, 08:08 AM
It's hard to imagine the 4th frontcourt player - whether it's Kelly or Ryan - getting 15-20 minutes per game on average. Someone is going to have to take a hit when it comes to minutes.

Ebay
10-14-2011, 08:13 AM
There is nothing concrete in that article, Spangler said he heard it from a fellow player, what weight does that hold. At the high school I coach at we have a player who started the varsity season with us last year as a grade 10 and did not finish the year due to academics. This year as we near tryouts a few players told me he was going to try out for Junior varsity and not Varsity, was it true? I found that this player had matured and he could help our team, so I asked him last night at open gym. His response was that someone put his name on the signup sheet and that he was indeed trying out for Varsity nit JV. So, until Kelly comes out and states he is redshirting, I do not believe any speculation.

Comparing collegiate athletes to high schools athletes in terms of maturity is pretty tough. Sure, they are still kids, but I would like to give our players more credit than spreading false rumors or "forging" Kelly's signature on the redshirt list as your comparison implies. You really think Kelly would contribute more to the team this year than in two years? He would be a backup potentially battling Dower and Spangler for playing time. Rob and Elias will both average 25-28 minutes a game. There aren't that many minutes to go around after that. Sam will get the next most in the front court. Is it worth it for Kelly to play 14 minutes a game this year or potentially 25 minutes a game in two years?

The redshirt makes sense, but that's just my crazy opinion.

CanadianZagFan
10-14-2011, 08:30 AM
Comparing collegiate athletes to high schools athletes in terms of maturity is pretty tough. Sure, they are still kids, but I would like to give our players more credit than spreading false rumors or "forging" Kelly's signature on the redshirt list as your comparison implies. You really think Kelly would contribute more to the team this year than in two years? He would be a backup potentially battling Dower and Spangler for playing time. Rob and Elias will both average 25-28 minutes a game. There aren't that many minutes to go around after that. Sam will get the next most in the front court. Is it worth it for Kelly to play 14 minutes a game this year or potentially 25 minutes a game in two years?

The redshirt makes sense, but that's just my crazy opinion.

I have coached at the college level as well as high school and I can say that there is not a huge jump, if any, from a high school senior to a college freshman/sophomore in terms of maturity in social graces. Now I will say that to be a great student athlete at a respected school does take a little more maturity than the kids I had in college, but it would be very easy for a player to come up to Ryan and say "hey I heard Kelly is looking to redshirt, you ready for some minutes" or similar. It is not an immature thing to say, nor is it really rumor spreading, more like encouraging a teammate to continue to work hard and get better because the PT is there.

Baldwinzag
10-14-2011, 08:31 AM
At the end of the day, its completely KO's decision. The Coaches can suggest or offer an opinion, but it is solely up to him whether he RS's or not...

The interesting thing is whether Elias makes a push to play the 3 spot this season -- I personally don't believe this happens again -- but if it does, it'd open up the front court rotation if Dower ends up in the starting lineup. Something else to ponder...

KO & Spang may see more time if Elias flirts with SF again, although I'm not in favor of this failed experiment.

hooter73
10-14-2011, 08:33 AM
so we redshirt the teams leader in rebounds per minute last year?

I just cant get behind answers that rely on statistics. I dont know the answers but my point is that were his rebounds coming from clean up minutes? Against elite competition? Who else was on the floor during his rebound leading statistics? There are just too many other variables to rely solely on statistics.

Sacre has the highest 3pt % right now if Im not mistaken.

I do NOT want to see E and the 3 again but it does open up more options and playing time. hmmmm

Baldwinzag
10-14-2011, 08:49 AM
I just cant get behind answers that rely on statistics. I dont know the answers but my point is that were his rebounds coming from clean up minutes? Against elite competition? Who else was on the floor during his rebound leading statistics? There are just too many other variables to rely solely on statistics.

Sacre has the highest 3pt % right now if Im not mistaken.

These stats are skewed a bit. As good as KO is on offense, his defensive rebounding fundamentals leave a lot to be desired. Honestly, its my biggest issue with him as a fan.

Just watch him rebound on defense and you'll see such a vast difference b/w his rebounding skills & the rest of our front court. He stares at the ball, nearly zero box out, misses his man, and gives up the offensive board WAY too often. During WCC play & vs elite team, he allowed several O-boards in crucial moments. They were missed assignments in rebounding. Besides the help defense(foul) issue, I believe his rebounding technique, or lack thereof, is primarily what keeps him from significant minutes. He's a decent offensive rebounder b/c of his height and savvy play on that side of the court, but watch how Elias literally fights with his man the entire time a shot is in the air.

The moment a shot is up, Harris & Sacre search, locate, and body-up an opponent to ensure they don't give up the offensive board. They don't have amazing rebounding #'s, but they are solid as securing the defensive board for our team. Ever notice the players running around Olynyk for the put-back bunny? I can't count how many times I screamed at him(or the TV) for giving up the offensive rebound or 2nd chance on countless occasions. He was always pulled by Coach Few shortly after.

If anything, KO is securing rebounds b/c other Zags are boxing out for him. Elias, Sacre, even Dower are boxing out while KO gets a wide open board b/c he's just standing there by the basket.

My intention is not to take shots at KO, but every time I see a poster point to his "rebounding per mins" statistic in less than 10 mins of PT, I might go crazy...this stat is not indicative of his performance.

It wasn't a coincidence Coach Few allowed him to rack up 4 fouls in 10 mins, but every time he gave up the easy put-back, offensive board, 2nd chance on defense, his butt was on the bench shortly there after.

zagzilla
10-14-2011, 08:56 AM
Kyle and Chris are redshirt locks. Both have bright futures but need to develop. Neither are ready defensively.

Guy-no way. He's a grown man and we need him today.

Spangler is most likely to RS because while we hear he has a great motor, he's a football player who is looking at a big jump up in competition and needs to develop skills on both ends of the floor. He has had no real coaching yet.

Now for Kelly:

He's a late bloomer who is going to be a pro somewhere. Where and for how long will be greatly affected by the path he takes.

Is it better to:

1. Burn through his last 2 years of eligibility while his coordination catches up to his body. He probably starts his Sr year but not this season as Big Rob and Elias are locked in. He'll be a rotation guy who will contribute this year no doubt.

2. Sit for a year, catch up on coordination and big man skills and then have both remaining years as a featured center in a high major program starting alongside Dower/Harris.

If he chooses door #1, he will have an important role on the team and go pro in Europe and if he gets the coaching and minutes might get a look from NBA scouts eventually.

If #2, he gets elite coaching and competition now, is a centerpiece of the team for his Jr and Sr seasons when the program will be strong and has a real chance at an NBA career from day 1.

Odds are on #1 but the right decision is #2

Kelly is an unconventional talent that warrants an unconventional solution.

I'm hoping for 4 redshirts this season not 3. If there's an injury on the front line we can always burn Kelly's or Ryan's.

ZZ

BULLDOG#1
10-14-2011, 09:29 AM
I started out thinking all of you are crazy, but perhaps I am the one who is crazy -- because I still think KO is primed right now for a breakout season.

Putting such a valuable asset on the shelf is nuts. Further, I disagree that Dower has the minutes over KO. They are different minutes. If KO's strength is on the perimeter, why do we put him into the post minute pool? He gives versatility only Harris can match.

History of KO -- promising freshman year, with a bit of a let-down (expectation wise) as a soph. Still finished with decent numbers and steadily has worked to improve his deficencies. Played top-tier international talent over the summer and held his own. By all accounts, a good, hardworking, coachable kid who has impoved day by day since he's gotten to Gonzaga.

Can we agree that KO has worked on his game this summer and will come in as an impoved junior? If so, he'll be giving more than 6 points and 4 rebounds in 14 minutes. I'm guessing something like 11 points and 7 boards in 20 minutes.

As for the intangibles, have folks forgotten that there were games last year that the zags would not have won if it weren't for KO? Same can be said about others -- but KO can help in multiple ways that the others didn't and can't. He's still a skilled 7 footer with a better than average jumper.

As for playing pro overseas if he doesn't redshirt or NBA shot if he does, I completely disagree. NBA scouts will have seen Kelly plenty with the national exposure from the canadian team. And really, it's sort of now or never to see if Kelly has grown into his body.

Unless Spangler is 100% the hype and then some, i can't see ANY way you redshirt Kelly.

CanadianZagFan
10-14-2011, 09:38 AM
These stats are skewed a bit. As good as KO is on offense, his defensive rebounding fundamentals leave a lot to be desired. Honestly, its my biggest issue with him as a fan.

Just watch him rebound on defense and you'll see such a vast difference b/w his rebounding skills & the rest of our front court. He stares at the ball, nearly zero box out, misses his man, and gives up the offensive board WAY too often. During WCC play & vs elite team, he allowed several O-boards in crucial moments. They were missed assignments in rebounding. Besides the help defense(foul) issue, I believe his rebounding technique, or lack thereof, is primarily what keeps him from significant minutes. He's a decent offensive rebounder b/c of his height and savvy play on that side of the court, but watch how Elias literally fights with his man the entire time a shot is in the air.

The moment a shot is up, Harris & Sacre search, locate, and body-up an opponent to ensure they don't give up the offensive board. They don't have amazing rebounding #'s, but they are solid as securing the defensive board for our team. Ever notice the players running around Olynyk for the put-back bunny? I can't count how many times I screamed at him(or the TV) for giving up the offensive rebound or 2nd chance on countless occasions. He was always pulled by Coach Few shortly after.

If anything, KO is securing rebounds b/c other Zags are boxing out for him. Elias, Sacre, even Dower are boxing out while KO gets a wide open board b/c he's just standing there by the basket.

My intention is not to take shots at KO, but every time I see a poster point to his "rebounding per mins" statistic in less than 10 mins of PT, I might go crazy...this stat is not indicative of his performance.

It wasn't a coincidence Coach Few allowed him to rack up 4 fouls in 10 mins, but every time he gave up the easy put-back, offensive board, 2nd chance on defense, his butt was on the bench shortly there after.

It sure is easy to rip on an actual statistic with your memory of Kelly's play throughout and entire season. I don't know how many times I have seen people do this to only to go back and re-watch a certain game a see they are either way off on their assessment or greatly exaggerated what they saw. Also you mention more than once 10 minutes of playing time, in actual fact Kelly played an average of 13.5 minutes per game, that would be 35% more PT than you give him credit for, that to me just shows that the point you are trying to make is flawed.

I am not saying that stats are cut and dry and can be used to end an argument, but at least they are tangible and not simple opinion. THE reason I put the rebounding number out there was because it was stated that rebounding was what we needed but Kelly was not a good rebounder, while he may not be elite, he can more than hold his own. As a Raptors fan the rebounding issue come up with Andrea Bargnani all the time, and while Andrea does a lot of standing around he still does not grab rebounds at an acceptable pace, this is not the same for KO, he is doing more than just having the ball fall into his hands because everyone else is doing the work.

Zag 77
10-14-2011, 09:40 AM
Chris says he is totally cool with redshirting this year. It makes sense since there is such a surplus at guard this year.

hooter73
10-14-2011, 09:45 AM
If KO's strength is on the perimeter, why do we put him into the post minute pool? He gives versatility only Harris can match.



Because neither he or Harris can guard the perimeter.

Remember after Meech left and he was quoted in an article about he thought he was better than everyone gave him credit for? I REALLY hope that is not the case with KO.

Baldwinzag
10-14-2011, 09:48 AM
It sure is easy to rip on an actual statistic with your memory of Kelly's play throughout and entire season. I don't know how many times I have seen people do this to only to go back and re-watch a certain game a see they are either way off on their assessment or greatly exaggerated what they saw. Also you mention more than once 10 minutes of playing time, in actual fact Kelly played an average of 13.5 minutes per game, that would be 35% more PT than you give him credit for, that to me just shows that the point you are trying to make is flawed.

I am not saying that stats are cut and dry and can be used to end an argument, but at least they are tangible and not simple opinion. THE reason I put the rebounding number out there was because it was stated that rebounding was what we needed but Kelly was not a good rebounder, while he may not be elite, he can more than hold his own. As a Raptors fan the rebounding issue come up with Andrea Bargnani all the time, and while Andrea does a lot of standing around he still does not grab rebounds at an acceptable pace, this is not the same for KO, he is doing more than just having the ball fall into his hands because everyone else is doing the work.

I sincerely hope KO proves me wrong this season. Having said that, I'll believe it when I see it. I just don't see a player who warrants more than 10-15 mins per game in D1 hoops. Nothing against Olynyk, its just he simply doesn't look comfortable while playing & his play on defense is questionable at best. I agree w/CDC for the fact I'd like to see him RS and learn how to play underneath the hoop at 7', but its clear he's not there yet. This could be his season, but so was last year following Coach Rautins comments & belief in him.

We've all heard about his skills in the off-season & how everyone says he's a NBA player "someday". This could come to be, but until he learns how to play at a high level in D1, not just vs European teams, then I'm still in favor of a RS year or another year logging spotty minutes.

CanadianZagFan
10-14-2011, 09:49 AM
Because neither he or Harris can guard the perimeter.

Remember after Meech left and he was quoted in an article about he thought he was better than everyone gave him credit for? I REALLY hope that is not the case with KO.

Can someone please comment on if they remember when Harris was with the German National team the coach having him guard the 2 and 3 spot. I remember reading this in an article at the time. It is for this reason that I am holding out hope that a healthy and leaner Elias is ready to play minutes at the 3

hooter73
10-14-2011, 09:53 AM
if Harris guarded the 2 and 3 in Germany we havent seen those skills in the last two years of NCAA D1 ball. Im not saying he cant at some point, we just have yet to see it be a benefit over the cost.

KO getting 11/7 in 20 minutes is not happening. Id be happy if Sacre got that while sharing minutes with everybody. I think Dower is closer to KO in probability of pulling those numbers as the back up this year..

I want KO to do well, break out, blow us away, I just foresee that happening in the next three years, not this one.

Baldwinzag
10-14-2011, 09:59 AM
Can someone please comment on if they remember when Harris was with the German National team the coach having him guard the 2 and 3 spot. I remember reading this in an article at the time. It is for this reason that I am holding out hope that a healthy and leaner Elias is ready to play minutes at the 3

He did, indeed, log minutes at 3 for Germany, except he was primarily guarding Euro-style SF's i.e, tall, lanky, shoot-first players rather than big, fast, athletic slashers like many are in D1 hoops...

Elias is strong, athletic, and bouncy, but his lateral quickness and back-peddling are far too stiff and slow to consistently guard players along the perimeter. I liken it to a football player who can run a 4.4 40 running in a straight line, but can't cover anyone due to stiff hips and lack of quickness instead of just strength/athleticism.

Maybe he's worked all off-season on improving/retraining his quick twitch muscles to be able to extend his defense -- Harris was the reason, on many occasions, we gave up the wide-open three last year.

cggonzaga
10-14-2011, 11:26 AM
It's hard to imagine the 4th frontcourt player - whether it's Kelly or Ryan - getting 15-20 minutes per game on average. Someone is going to have to take a hit when it comes to minutes.

That's essentially my point. Why burn a year playing 5 minutes a game? Redshirt him for developmental reasons and have a star ready to step on the court next season. Now, if he's going to be the fourth big off of the bench then I wouldn't redshirt him. For what it's worth, both Sam and Kelly averaged 14mpg last season.

BULLDOG#1
10-14-2011, 11:31 AM
hooter, I think your points are valid. Neither E or KO are have shown ability to effectively guard the wing and it's the one area both of them need to improve upon if this team is going to excel this year.

we do disagree on KO, though. I've seen enough from him to promote him as a 20 minute/game zag this year. His versitility is key. Though he's slow-footed, he has a pretty polished game, can shoot, and he's a 7 footer. IF he get's 20+ minutes, he can put up 11 and 7. He can stretch defenses more than any forward on the team. Even more than MM or Bell, because he'll have to be guarded by a big -- KO is an instant mis-match on offense. In most cases this year, it will more than overcome his defensive issues.

whoever posted that everyone else does the work and KO gets the rebound is nuts. Rebounds don't simply fall into your hands, even if you're 7 feet tall. Why is it that KO gets knocked for being a poor rebounder when he's the best per-minute rebounder on the team and he's away from the bucket more than Sacre and and Dower?

In the hype-a-player world, I'd rather back KO (proven commodity) than the unknown in Spangler.

If you're playing big: E, rob, and KO is an much more effective lineup than E, rob, and sam (or spangler).

Vanzagger
10-14-2011, 12:03 PM
If we are leaving big time players on the bench because they can't back pedal (wow) that's on the coaches.

Think big this year. No making excuses that we were ranked too high to start the season or we are too young.

There is a lot at stake. It's going to be fun and interesting.

Go Zags!

hooter73
10-14-2011, 12:03 PM
The mismatch is a good argument if the player has the height, athleticism and skill set of Austin Daye. Now that was a mismatch.

zag buddy
10-14-2011, 12:30 PM
I think Harris needs to redshirt to become a three and add to his potential at the next level. It is worth many millions of dollars to him to become proficient at the 3. Currently I do not see him as good as Pendo was at about the same height playing the same position at the same point in their developement. If he can't do it we do not lose much on the floor with the players we have. We are blessed with a wonderful group of big guys. Kelly could start on almost any team in the nation. If I were Kelly and they ask me to reshirt, I would turn pro now play in Europe for the next 3 years which would be when he graduates and he will be in the NBA with a ton of money in his pocket. It would give his body a chance to catch up if he redshirted but it may have caught up allready. Redshirt Harris.

GoZags
10-14-2011, 12:42 PM
I think Harris needs to redshirt to become a three and add to his potential at the next level. It is worth many millions of dollars to him tobecome proficient at the 3. If he can't do it we do not lose much on the floor with the players we have. We are blessed with a wonderful group of big guys. Kelly could start on almost any team in the nation. It would give his body a chance to catch up if he redshirted but it may have caught up allready. Redshirt Harris.

In his only "healthy" season as a Zag, Elias Harris averaged 15 and 7, and became a pre-season All American the following year. A severe training camp shoulder injury led to virtually no practice for the three weeks leading up to the season. Then, very early in the season, Elias (still suffering from the shoulder injury) hurt his achillies. He began to get into "form" late last season, and has dedicated himself to getting in shape, eating healthier and becoming a GREAT teammate (i.e. mentoring the younger guys). IOW, he has matured (and gotten healthy).

It is my opinion that he has a chance (a decent chance) to be the Zags' 3rd First Team All American in the past decade, joining 3D and Morrison. There are others (MUCH closer to the situation than I) that feel that way, too.

I do not think Gonzaga will be redshirting Elias Harris.

maynard g krebs
10-14-2011, 12:54 PM
The reason for KO to redshirt is because at 7-0 tall, and as a player who is still growing into his body, he's the best candidate on the roster to replace Rob Sacre in the middle. Maybe not the ideal candidate, but the best candidate. Especially with the staff decision to stop recruiting 2012 big men. The other three guys will never be centers because to "make them" centers would be to take away from their respective strengths as players. I know this is especially the case with Dower and Harris. Gonzaga hasn't gotten out of Kelly what he is fully capable of, largely because he's been a perimeter player his whole life. Problem is, he's never going to be a perimeter player at this level. KO would need extensive one on one coaching and to be reinvented as a player in order for the transition to work. Hence, a redshirt year.

I would just hate to see that guy waste his eligibility while trying to figure out how to be a big man at the D-1 level. I know he isn't a dynamic athlete and all that, but he's 7 feet tall and skilled. He also has a good feel for the game and has a good basketball IQ. There aren't many guys like him throughout college basketball these days. It might be worth the risk to have him sit out a year.



Last time this topic came up, I said with KO's size and natural abilities, he could be a like a bigger JP Batista. Canadian Zag Fan responded by posting a shot chart from his last game, with mostly midrange jumpers, and said that's KO's game, and he's not a post player. IMO if he took that year as CDC says, he could be a 20/10 post player, like Todd MacCulloch at UW, or Samhan or Bryant in the WCC. Maybe not as a RS Jr, but very probably by his Sr yr.

Big, slow, late bloomer with great skills, still filling out and catching up with a late growth spurt. To me it's a no-brainer.

Look at how Rob has improved his post game every year. Two years from now Kelly could be a dominant low post scorer. Add that to his terrific ability to set picks and hit from the outside, and envision this scenario: a RS senior KO running the pick and roll with either GBJ or Pangos, with the pick and pop for a 3 or midrange jumper as an option. With the abilities of all these guys to read the floor and pass the ball, it's a layup or wide open jumper most of the time. Or put KO in the low post, and surround him with all these GREAT shooters, and it's pick your poison. Let a big bodied 7 footer go one on one, or double him (or Dower) and watch KP or GB bury an open 3.

The long view, the view with vision, is a team with sr KO at center, sr Dower as a 4-5, jr Spangler at the 4 in a 3 man rotation. An elite backcourt with Pangos/Bell, backed by Stockton and Sarbaugh, with versatility at the wings with MM, MK, and KD. Size, post skill, unselfish guys, rebounding, superb passers, and great shooters. That's a final 4 recipe, and that's what I'd be selling KO if I was a coach.

MaroonZag22
10-14-2011, 12:56 PM
We redshirt the WHOLE team. Well, everyone who still has a redshirt available anyway. That will allow everyone to spend a year getting better with decreased risk of injury. We call up all of our opponents and tell them so they can choose to take the week off. Then we show up to our games with Sacre (RSr), Carter (RSr), Stockton (RSo), and Hart (RJr), and one practice guy and play the games. Of course, we will ask our WCC opponents to just forfeit their games to us so we can keep our conference championship streak going, and they will all understand and agree to this immediately!



















Yeah, I know this is a pointless post. But so is every one here! None of us actually have the power to redshirt anyone! Okay, carry on.

NotoriousZ
10-14-2011, 01:01 PM
Sarbaugh and Draginis.

I'd definitely agree with Olynyk if that's what he wants.

Harris?!? Are you serious?

maynard g krebs
10-14-2011, 01:01 PM
We redshirt the WHOLE team. Well, everyone who still has a redshirt available anyway. That will allow everyone to spend a year getting better with decreased risk of injury. We call up all of our opponents and tell them so they can choose to take the week off. Then we show up to our games with Sacre (RSr), Carter (RSr), Stockton (RSo), and Hart (RJr), and one practice guy and play the games. Of course, we will ask our WCC opponents to just forfeit their games to us so we can keep our conference championship streak going, and they will all understand and agree to this immediately!



















Yeah, I know this is a pointless post. But so is every one here! None of us actually have the power to redshirt anyone! Okay, carry on.

Since none of us has the power to implement anything, none of us should ever post about anything, by logical extension. And further, none of us should bother to read anything posted by anyone else, since it's moot anyway. Thanks for making that clear.

zag buddy
10-14-2011, 01:17 PM
NotoriousZ , Harris' value is limited at the next level if he does not learn to play the 3 position. He may be a very good college player but would not make the pros at the 4 position.Do you think a pro team will spend big money on him to retrain him to a position that he has shown little ability to play. "t'weener" do not do well in the pro's. Why put him in a position to fail in the future when you can use the present to make him much better? He has recieved enough college adulation to satisfy him. Now let's look to his future. It's not easy making hard decisions that impact the unknown future.Subdue the ego and Look deep inside Elies and you will find the answer. I'm just looking out for his best interest.

cjm720
10-14-2011, 02:59 PM
NotoriousZ , Harris' value is limited at the next level if he does not learn to play the 3 position. He may be a very good college player but would not make the pros at the 4 position.Do you think a pro team will spend big money on him to retrain him to a position that he has shown little ability to play. "t'weener" do not do well in the pro's. Why put him in a position to fail in the future when you can use the present to make him much better? He has recieved enough college adulation to satisfy him. Now let's look to his future. It's not easy making hard decisions that impact the unknown future.Subdue the ego and Look deep inside Elies and you will find the answer. I'm just looking out for his best interest.

He plays for the Zags not for some future mystery team. He's on our team to win and coach will put him in the best position to ensure that...ala last year.

ZagWhoShotLibertyValance
10-14-2011, 07:09 PM
zagzilla sez:

"Now for Kelly:

He's a late bloomer who is going to be a pro somewhere. Where and for how long will be greatly affected by the path he takes.

Is it better to:

1. Burn through his last 2 years of eligibility while his coordination catches up to his body. He probably starts his Sr year but not this season as Big Rob and Elias are locked in. He'll be a rotation guy who will contribute this year no doubt.

2. Sit for a year, catch up on coordination and big man skills and then have both remaining years as a featured center in a high major program starting alongside Dower/Harris.

If he chooses door #1, he will have an important role on the team and go pro in Europe and if he gets the coaching and minutes might get a look from NBA scouts eventually.

If #2, he gets elite coaching and competition now, is a centerpiece of the team for his Jr and Sr seasons when the program will be strong and has a real chance at an NBA career from day 1.

Odds are on #1 but the right decision is #2"


HALLELUJAH!!!! Zagzilla might be a dumb name but s/he is sure spot on when it comes to identifying issues. Maybe Kelly's dad (Canadianzagfan) might wish to disagree (not disagree but wish to disagree) but there is zero question that the body of [I]homo sapiens[I] has only recently begun to adapt to such improbable heights as KO's, and as the latter is blooming late, why not treat him as a late flower. hell, i am in spokane, i still have tomatoes growing, why canadinzagfan do you want me to pick them early? Best for Zags and best for KO: redshirt.

think through what a seven foot fifth year 23 year old internationally experienced skilled interior player would bring to an NBA squad? this is an easy issue if you set the egos aside. red-shirt, man. its the right thing--even if everyone is right about those skills, they aren't going away.....only improving

BULLDOG#1
10-14-2011, 07:24 PM
zagwhoshot: your reasoning works for Harris as well as KO. Or Dower. shallow argument -- it could work for any player, really.

Seriously, fans... This years team will NOT reach the sweet 16 or beyond without major contributions from KO. He gives the team a piece of the puzzle that no other player can.

Redshirting one of your biggest weapons is crazy. Who takes his spot? Spangler?

lunacy.

KO should situationally start and always see major minutes.

roxdoc
10-14-2011, 07:30 PM
I like Kelly, very happy he is a Zag, and will not take a side in the redshirt argument. That said, I find it very hard at this point in time to characterize Kelly as "one of our biggest weapons".

ZagWhoShotLibertyValance
10-14-2011, 07:38 PM
"zagwhoshot: your reasoning works for Harris as well as KO. Or Dower. shallow argument -- it could work for any player, really."

you are right. it works for any player who is seven foot tall, who has done most of his growth in the last 24 months, has played most of his career in transitional basketball, moving with the ball, and is now being asked to play a totally different style of ball based upon his newly "found" height. Harris? Yup, he has grown a lot in the last three years--but he has taken it off (sarcastic reference to his weight), Dower has already had a redshirt season and there is not a person on the planet who thinks it was mis-spent. Maybe some people think he should work harder in the weight room. You think I am making some argument that "all players could benefit from a year off"-- aside from the fact that is patently and baldly false, instead I am making the nuanced argument that despite the various and growing talents that KO possesses, he and the program would be better suited by him red shirting a year. Most people connected with the program that I have talked with agree. Now, maybe that is some kind of cheap shot, "appeal to authority" logical fallacy that I am throwing at you, but consider it as additional evidence. that is all. Love KO. think he is going to be really something.
I just hope its for us.

This Is All About KO Catching Up to His Coordination.

BULLDOG#1
10-14-2011, 07:50 PM
don't want to nit-pick. I mean, we're all zag fans and we want what's best for all the players. We just very much disagree on KO.

I believe he's one of our biggest weapons because he offers versatility that no other zag can and I don't believe he'll gain that much with a redshirt year.

zagzilla
10-14-2011, 07:51 PM
"Zagzilla might be a dumb name but s/he is sure spot on when it comes to identifying issues"

I'll take the compliment but not the dis from somebody whose handle is ZagWhoShotLibertyValance.

ZZ

OK-ZagFan
10-14-2011, 08:10 PM
Bulldog#1 you must be some kin to KO - I have read alot of your post and they don't make sense

WyoZag
10-14-2011, 08:15 PM
Is this whole thread a new way of rickrolling the masses?

CanadianZagFan
10-15-2011, 04:21 AM
Bulldog#1 you must be some kin to KO - I have read alot of your post and they don't make sense

I agree with Bulldog#1.

It is funny how we allowed Austin Daye at 6'11 to play "his game", we let Josh Heytvelt play and outside in game, but for some reason people want Kelly to become a low post player, when that is clearly not his game. While he does need to be able to score on the block, he has many other weapons that do make him a great miss-match. He is a great passer from the high post therefore the offense can run through him, he is a very good 3 point shooter, therefore he can pull opposing teams big away from the lane opening up penetration and less double teams by bigs down low, he has very good handles for a 7 footer, this allows him to use a shot fake (remember that good shot) to make and take one dribble pull-ups and forays into the lane. Now if you put a smaller more mobile forward on him, his improving post game will get some easy buckets. By no way is he a finished product, but he is a player that can help you team win games for sure. The kid came to Gonzaga at 6'10, it is not like he was 6'7 when he got here, if they did not think he was ready as a freshman they should have red-shirted him then.

BULLDOG#1
10-15-2011, 07:25 AM
thanks for the support CanadianZagFan.

I'm not kin to KO, just see more to his game than some others on this board. He is not polished, but a player with that kind of skill set diversity will be needed this year as much as next, possibly moreconsidering the number of inexperienced newcomers. Putting him on the shelf in favor of Spangler -- who I admittedly haven't seen play -- seems nuts.

By all accounts Spangler gives you great rebounding and low post play. KO gives much more with his all around game, and he brings experience. Seems like this team needs KO's skill set more than Spangler's. And KO is less of a gamble because he's been in the system for 2 years.

Just my 2 cents. Hope the best for both kids.

bostonzagfan
10-15-2011, 09:23 AM
it makes sense to redshirt one of spangler/olynk. no need to have the fifth big waste a year with little playing time. Harris, Sacre, and Dower are ahead of those two in most people's eyes. Not all, but most. I think they should redshirt the "less good" player between the two, as long as it doesn't mess up chemistry. I would think KO would want two years to start instead of just one but that is just me.

Birddog
10-15-2011, 10:20 AM
KO gives much more with his all around game[/B], and he brings experience. Seems like this team needs KO's skill set more than Spangler's.]

BD#1, Just curious, how do you know this to be the case?

kylasdad
10-15-2011, 10:36 AM
I like Kelly and of course he can/will help the zags win some games this year like he did last year. He is good at a lot of things on the basketball court. I feel very comfortable when he is shooting the ball, he hit some big ones last year. With that said, you can't convince me that Gonzaga, with all its depth in the frontcourt, is a sweet 16 team with Kelly and not without him. I don't think Kelly is the x factor this year. If I was Kelly, or one of his "kelly blind" fanatics, I would rather his senior year be with a mature, elite backcourt and without Rob/Elias. In summary, I believe if kelly plays he helps the zags in his 15 or so minutes per game. If he redshirts, he has a better chance to breakout his junior or senior years. Either way, zags are fine.

Ps, if Kelly is playing the 3, I think we are screwed. I can't see any way on which he could stay in front of an average collegiate 3 on defense.

zag67
10-15-2011, 12:31 PM
I think that you could play a KO or Harris at a three, if you went to a zone. But not against very many teams. In the WCC, you have too many teams that are great 3 point shooting teams. Having Harris and KO close on the 3 pt shooters, might get us more fouls on the close outs. But I do think we would cause many mistmatch problems on the other end. So in thinking about it, I could see our coaches trying that against certain teams (after we get a good lead).

Think of a team like Dower, KO, Harris, Carter and Bell. All can shoot from distance and 3 of them could play center. Tough matchups for the other team. (and again I am not saying this would be a normal team)

kylasdad
10-15-2011, 12:40 PM
Its fun to think about but Few has a system and doesn't deviate to far from it no matter the score