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BobZag
10-12-2011, 10:41 AM
PG: Stockton or Pangos (a real dogfight between these two)
SG: Bell
SF: Carter
PF: Harris
C: Sacre

Dower can replace a guard and Harris can slide out for three bigs and two guards. Pangos can play with Stockton, with Bell, and Bell can play PG with Carter at SG. A three-guard attack with three of Stockton, Carter, Bell, Pangos can be on the floor and effective while a three-bigs attack can be employed with three of Sacre, Harris, Dower, Olynyk/Spangler.

Positives: Lots of versatility and quality depth.
Negative: It might take Few 3/4s of the season again to figure out best combinations.

MBZags
10-12-2011, 10:48 AM
Is Landry anywhere close to that Starting 5?

Hogan
10-12-2011, 10:51 AM
My thoughts also. No true 3 in Bob's rotation at all, unless you count Elias.

gamagin
10-12-2011, 10:56 AM
for the coaches. All of them. Especially Few.

After a decade of coaxing a potentially excellent quorum into Zag uniforms, the quintessential test may not be filling clear voids and shoring up weak spots, but, rather, making the key decisions to put in the best five players into the game and letting them play long enough to gel and become a team. A real force.

The differences in talent, performance and contribution appear to be thinner and thinner. So the intangibles are going to become more and more important, imo.

Like leadership. Which players inspire confidence in their teammates and which need more time to grow and mature ? Who wants the ball when the game is on the line and who can deliver ?

Who gets the boards consistently and who doesn't ?

IF the answer is not the usual suspect, will the coaches be quick to adapt ? Make a change ? Or do they owe so and so another season in which to develop ?

We'll soon see, imo. Because we appear to be 2 and sometimes 3 deep in places. And there are more choices. This is what we recruited to be able to do. But will we do it ?

And as I watch, I think I'm going to be thinking more about the coaching decisions than the individual players. Because "someone" has to determine if so and so has maximized his improvement and perhaps, with the current crop, someone else is ready to take his place.

And it won't be up to me to make that decision, although we all will be watching to see a team emerge.

It will be the coaches.

webspinnre
10-12-2011, 10:57 AM
Is Landry anywhere close to that Starting 5?

I've got to think he'll be one of several guys to get playing time as a backup "3" depending on matchups, particularly against teams that feature a strong, athletic scorer at the position. I think similar questions will be ask about the role of the Mathii. Keita some at the 2 and 3, and Monninghoff at the 3 when we need some shooting.

MDABE80
10-12-2011, 11:10 AM
BZ's proposed lineup is about right for the beginning of the season. In Few's world, many of our players are interchangable. There are some unique kids who bring extra talent to the system though. Forget the guards. Those 4 kids for the two spots out front are pretty much set.

I do think there are two kids who will rise for us. One is Spangler and the other is Edi. Spangler will get lots of minutes and he's unique in that, as a frosh, he'll clean the boards and score lots of points if given minutes. He's a rare one.

The other one id Edi. WHile less known to me, he's got athletic talents that borders on shocking. If he plays defense like Errol did , he'll get lots of time. IF he makes his shots, he'll get lots of minutes....rewarding minutes. From the notice from Bleacher is accurate (I don't know how they know that), he's an unusually good defender as well. Keep your eyes on this kid. Wear shades too. He's kinda electrifying.......one of those " Jeeeebbus did you see that!!" type of kids. Verdict's still out for now. Time will tell. He'll need to drift to the "consistency" good players are known for.

cjm720
10-12-2011, 11:20 AM
PG: Stockton or Pangos (a real dogfight between these two)
SG: Bell
SF: Carter
PF: Harris
C: Sacre

Dower can replace a guard and Harris can slide out for three bigs and two guards. Pangos can play with Stockton, with Bell, and Bell can play PG with Carter at SG. A three-guard attack with three of Stockton, Carter, Bell, Pangos can be on the floor and effective while a three-bigs attack can be employed with three of Sacre, Harris, Dower, Olynyk/Spangler.

Positives: Lots of versatility and quality depth.
Negative: It might take Few 3/4s of the season again to figure out best combinations.

This is what I envision too. The biggest weaknesses is Carter out of position really, playing the 3. Gray was much stronger and more rounded than Carter. But that's where our versatility helps.

roxdoc
10-12-2011, 11:27 AM
+!

You hit the nail right on the head. We are loaded with talent, with an excellent set of "backups". The question is will the coaches be able and willing to mix and match on a situational, in game, basis. Perhaps we have not had the breadth of talent before to do this, but there are no excuses this year.

zag buddy
10-12-2011, 11:36 AM
What an amazing year. When you don't even mention a player that was mister defence last year (Mike Hart) when talking about the first ten players in a game.

MDABE80
10-12-2011, 11:38 AM
It's an accident Zag Buddy. I think you saw how much he's improved during the camp scrimmages. Mike's REALLY good......and not just defense.

zag buddy
10-12-2011, 11:41 AM
I agree he looked very good this summer. What a brain racking season for the coaches. Add to the mix that every player I saw was willing to put the team first before themselves.

Pargo the Destroyer
10-12-2011, 12:27 PM
That 3 guard line up will get eaten alive. Stocks is 5'11", pangos 6' - 6'1" Carter 6'3"- 6'4" GBJ 6'1"-6'2". No way. They can get away with it in the WCC but not against the big boys.

zag67
10-12-2011, 12:56 PM
PG - Stockton - Pangos will be very close
SG - GB - Backup Carter, MK
SF - Carter - Backup Landry, MM
PF - Harris - Backup MM, KO, Hart
C - Sacre - BAckup Dower, Spangler

This should be a great year to watch them grow. They will have growing pains, but hopefully each game, another player will step up to fill any voids created while another grows.

CanadianZagFan
10-12-2011, 01:33 PM
I guess I may be one of the few still holding out for Harris playing the 3 spot. With him being in the best shape of his Zag career and injury free, I don't see a problem. It has been discussed that he can't guard the position, but I disagree. Does anyone remember the summer when he was playing with the German National team, they had him at times guarding the shooting guard. With his health back, and with it, added mobility I see him starting games there. He may not get most of his minutes there, but he will start the game off as the wing forward.

PG Pangos
SG Carter
SF Harris
PF Olynyk
C Sacre

Bell, Stockton and Dower will all be in the top 8 players, the other guys will fight for rotation minutes and make the team that much better, I like the depth!

CDC84
10-12-2011, 01:46 PM
I'm with BZ:

PG: Stockton or Pangos
SG: Bell
SF: Carter
PF: Harris
C: Sacre

zagfan24
10-12-2011, 02:01 PM
If somehow we could combine Landry's athleticism, Monninghoff's shooting, Keita's speed, and Hart's defense...perfect small forward.

In lieu of that, I am fascinated to see how minutes play out this year. A lot of successful teams show disregard for the traditional 5 positions and find a way to get the best guys out there for the most minutes. Personally, I'm a fan of going with two "rotations" so that the second group can develop some cohesion off the bench, i.e.:

Rotation 1: Stockton, Carter, Landry, Harris, Sacre
Rotation 2: Pangos, Bell, Monninghoff/Hart, Olynyk/Spangler, Dower

I'm sure Few will do some tinkering early in the season, but I have full faith in his ability to eventually find a rotation that works. Unfortunately for the Zags, the "inverse" schedule (biggest competition early) can make figuring out rotations a more difficult task.

coolhandzag
10-12-2011, 02:02 PM
[QUOTE=BobZag;687192]PG: Stockton or Pangos (a real dogfight between these two)
SG: Bell
SF: Carter
PF: Harris
C: Sacre



I think time will prove BZ right, however I think this lineup is a little on the small side. What might be more fun would be prognosticating what the lineup will be that finishes the season. Don't be suprised to see Dower play big minutes this year.

I love all the hype regarding incoming class, but the best thing about freshman ball players is that they become sophomores.

maynard g krebs
10-12-2011, 02:05 PM
That 3 guard line up will get eaten alive. Stocks is 5'11", pangos 6' - 6'1" Carter 6'3"- 6'4" GBJ 6'1"-6'2". No way. They can get away with it in the WCC but not against the big boys.

Dee Brown, Luther Head, and Deron Williams were about the same size colllectively, and were the 2nd best team in the country. Not that the Zags are that good, but the other guys have to stop you just as much as you have to stop them.

An even smaller team, Oregon 5 years ago:5'6 Tajuan Porter, 5'10 Aaron Brooks, 6'3-4 Bryce Taylor, blew out everybody in the Pac-10 tourney and made the E8 before losing to nat champ Fla in a game they could have won. And that team started a 6'6 wing, Malik Hairston, at the 4 and a 6'9 combo forward, Maarty Leunen at the 5- much smaller than the Zags' front line.

Both those teams did fine against the "big boys".

Some of the bigger wings will see plenty of time when needed. But the 3 guard lineup BZ lists will be the Zags' best offensive team by far, and the most likely to get the team off to good starts, which was often a problem last year until Carter became an offensive threat.

cjm720
10-12-2011, 02:47 PM
Dee Brown, Luther Head, and Deron Williams were about the same size colllectively, and were the 2nd best team in the country. Not that the Zags are that good, but the other guys have to stop you just as much as you have to stop them.

Didn't all those guys get drafted? I'm pretty certain that's not going to happen, not that there's necessarily a correlation between that and our success.

maynard g krebs
10-12-2011, 03:19 PM
Didn't all those guys get drafted? I'm pretty certain that's not going to happen, not that there's necessarily a correlation between that and our success.

Yeah, nobody in their right mind would expect the Zags to be that good. Point is just that you can go small successfully. And this Zag lineup isn't that small overall. Villanova a few yrs ago with 4 guards starting is another example-much smaller than the lineup in this thread.

Pargo the Destroyer
10-12-2011, 03:36 PM
You can go small if you have NBA talent. All those teams you mentioned have guys in the NBA. This gonzaga team probably has zero. That 'nova team had all 4 guards make it if I'm not mistaken, or, 3 of the 4

Zagdawg
10-12-2011, 03:51 PM
I will go out on a limb and say we have at least one NBA player on our current team.


Who is it.........



I guess thats why they play the game...... only time will tell.

Lineup
Stockton/Pangos
Carter/Bell
Landry/Monninghoff/Keita
Harris/Olynk
Sacre/Dower/Spangler

maynard g krebs
10-12-2011, 04:11 PM
You can go small if you have NBA talent. All those teams you mentioned have guys in the NBA. This gonzaga team probably has zero. That 'nova team had all 4 guards make it if I'm not mistaken, or, 3 of the 4

OK, how about Hall/Santangelo/Frahm. Collectively smaller than KP/GB/MC, by an aggregate 5 inches according to listed heights. Applying your thinking to the 99 team, Hall shouldn't have started.

izzjess
10-12-2011, 04:23 PM
beginning of the year..stocks,carter,morningoff,harris,Rob. after about 7 games--pangos,bell,landry,harris,Rob....

jazzdelmar
10-12-2011, 05:29 PM
beginning of the year..stocks,carter,morningoff,harris,Rob. after about 7 games--pangos,bell,landry,harris,Rob....


+1....bell and pangos are the faces of zags hoops the next 4 years.....no one else close...

BobZag
10-12-2011, 05:32 PM
Dower first off the bench. He scores too much, too easily, to keep on the bench for long. A core of eight players in the main rotation is ideal for March. Few has a great small lineup and a strong big lineup. With good management, he'll have a better team this year than last. No clog-up at PG. *Ahem!*

5 on 5, baby! All game, every game. Yeah.

Kiddwell
10-12-2011, 08:37 PM
On the theory that we start The Best Player at Each Position, here goes:

Kevin Pangos -- PG
Gary Bell -- SG
Guy Landry -- SF
Elias Harris -- PF
Robert Sacre -- C

Look, if these really are the best players at each position (as many posts hereabouts attest), then the more actual game time the "KeGGERs" spend together, the sooner they carbonate...ferment...whatever.

OK, all together now, "Play the best!"

:cheers: <--Two Zags fans heartily saluting college hoops with frothy steins of A&W Root Beer!


:]

Pargo the Destroyer
10-12-2011, 08:57 PM
OK, how about Hall/Santangelo/Frahm. Collectively smaller than KP/GB/MC, by an aggregate 5 inches according to listed heights. Applying your thinking to the 99 team, Hall shouldn't have started.

Can't argue with that MGK. Just have a hard time seeing that lineup compete against the MSU's, Arizona's etc of the world. But we always do :)

bostonzagfan
10-12-2011, 09:11 PM
carter will definately be starting. *definately definately*

maynard g krebs
10-12-2011, 09:40 PM
carter will definately be starting. *definately definately*

Agree. There seems to be a segment of this board that undervalues Carter. Considering the overall backcourt youth, he's as important as any player on the team this year. If you don't have lottery talent, you need veteran leadership in the backcourt, and Carter is the only player who provides that.

HOOTER
10-12-2011, 09:41 PM
carter will definately be starting. *definately definately*

definitely.

...and I agree.

ZagsGoZags
10-13-2011, 12:41 AM
some posts here far over-rate MM
his PT was low by end of season, deservedly so on pure contribution to team
desperation for guns brougt him off the pine last year
i think we have more guns now
hope his overall game has stepped up over summer
hope I am wrong
i predict he'll be used far less than some think

VinnyZag
10-13-2011, 05:40 AM
I don't understand why people think Landry/Edi would start. One would think that he will take at least as long to adjust to DI as Carter did.
Also, for those in favor of a big lineup, don't you think Dower would start over Olynyk?

BULLDOG#1
10-13-2011, 05:47 AM
Dower is unstoppable on the block, but KO give way more overall. It will be crowded down low with Rob, E, and Dower in the game together.

Pargo the Destroyer
10-13-2011, 06:56 AM
Does anyone know what Kevins dribble drive looks like? Can he get into the paint against man to man? I would love to see a good penetrating PG be able to get into the lane and be able to finish or drop a dime to a big for a dunk. I don't recall seeing this type of PG for awhile. Yes, Pargo could get to the tin all day but he was score first, score again, maybe pass later which i was fine with. What about GBJ? Can he do the same?

zagfan24
10-13-2011, 07:22 AM
I don't understand why people think Landry/Edi would start. One would think that he will take at least as long to adjust to DI as Carter did.

He's a big question mark for sure, but I'm excited to see him play. I think a lot will depend on how quickly he can learn the defensive schemes. I believe his adjustment could be quicker than Carter's simply because the things he would be asked to do (defense, rebounding) are a bit more instinctive. A lot of his PT may be dependent on the offensive production from other players.

CanadianZagFan
10-13-2011, 07:25 AM
I don't understand why people think Landry/Edi would start. One would think that he will take at least as long to adjust to DI as Carter did.
Also, for those in favor of a big lineup, don't you think Dower would start over Olynyk?

I don't think Dower would start in the big lineup. By using a line up that has Elias as the small forward with Kelly on the floor with him as the power forward, it allows Elias to work in the post against players not accustomed to playing post D. Should the other team decide to use a bigger forward to guard Harris then the advantage goes to Kelly who has shown an improved game down low and the ability to shoot over the shorter defender from the perimeter. Kelly's ball skills would complement the team better to start the game, he is not player that needs to score to stay happy, Sam on the other hand looks like the type of player who's energy increases when he scores the ball....great off the bench when one or two starters are sitting and he is more of a focal point.

cjm720
10-13-2011, 07:36 AM
Does anyone know what Kevins dribble drive looks like? Can he get into the paint against man to man? I would love to see a good penetrating PG be able to get into the lane and be able to finish or drop a dime to a big for a dunk. I don't recall seeing this type of PG for awhile. Yes, Pargo could get to the tin all day but he was score first, score again, maybe pass later which i was fine with. What about GBJ? Can he do the same?

GBJ will excel at the dribble drive, a quick first step, and he can pass. Pangos will need to work at it a bit, as his weapon of choice is his long range shooting.

zag67
10-13-2011, 07:46 AM
I think that who the starters are is not the real question. Who will be getting the minutes and why, should be the question. I think that the minutes will depend on matchups, who is playing well and chemistry. I do not think that being the best player is going to be as important as being the best team player (at both ends of the court). Depending on how long it takes some of the new players to integrate with the existing players (bell, spangler, pangos, landry) will then say how many minutes that they are playing. Also I think that this team more than many previous teams has the players to make them match us instead of vice versa. When we get to full speed, we can go small, we can go big, we can go defensive, we can go 3 point shooters, and I think that we can even go full and half court press.

That is why to me this is going to be such a fun season to watch.

SunDevilGolfZag
10-13-2011, 04:33 PM
This whole thread is really just good evidence that we all can't wait for official practice to start. Someone unexpected could emerge when the lights go on.

northsidezagfan
10-13-2011, 05:21 PM
This whole thread is really just good evidence that we all can't wait for official practice to start. Someone unexpected could emerge when the lights go on.

And then the "I told you so's" can start!!! :jk:

TOMORROW!!!!!!!!!!

NotoriousZ
10-13-2011, 05:47 PM
Don't know if or when Landry starts, but I think he will see plenty of time on the court. We have too many scorers, if that's possible, and we'll need somebody to play D and rebound. If he's as good as Errol Knight, look out.

We are loaded this year.

jim77
10-14-2011, 01:25 AM
DS ...PG
MC...SG
EH....TROUBLE.
SD...PF
RS....C

The majority of the country simply can't match our front court....Spangler and Big "OOOOOOOO".....can get it done too. This team has a lot of weapons and a schedule that is just about right. Sounds like Pangos and GBJ are ready for primetime also.....Monninghof to help in the 3's department and landry and Kieta to help keep the "D" up. We really have 2 really good teams. Gonna be a fun season to watch.

Baseline
10-14-2011, 08:17 PM
PG: Pangos
SG: Bell
SF: Hart
PF: Spangler
C: Sacre

Carter and Dower first off the bench.

Zag79
10-16-2011, 10:26 PM
OK, how about Hall/Santangelo/Frahm. Collectively smaller than KP/GB/MC, by an aggregate 5 inches according to listed heights. Applying your thinking to the 99 team, Hall shouldn't have started.

except stockton isnt half the player any of those guys were yet. we saw that in march last year didnt we? if you go small, they better be able to defend and get to the cup which david isnt good at doing either. even his three point shot needs work, comparing him to anyone mentioned in this thread is humorous at best. dee brown, porter, brooks, santangelo, am i missing something? i hope stocks can be what we need, but i have a feeling bell will running the team with carter when it matters as the season progresses.

maynard g krebs
10-17-2011, 12:22 PM
except stockton isnt half the player any of those guys were yet. we saw that in march last year didnt we? if you go small, they better be able to defend and get to the cup which david isnt good at doing either. even his three point shot needs work, comparing him to anyone mentioned in this thread is humorous at best. dee brown, porter, brooks, santangelo, am i missing something? i hope stocks can be what we need, but i have a feeling bell will running the team with carter when it matters as the season progresses.

If you look at my last post above, you'll see I was talking about a lineup with Pangos, not Stockton. I see Stockton as a quality backup and Pangos as a future star.

Of course Bell and Pangos will have some growing pains. My point in using examples was just to show that small, outside the box type lineups can and have been successful.

DADoZAG
10-17-2011, 12:29 PM
If you look at my last post above, you'll see I was talking about a lineup with Pangos, not Stockton. I see Stockton as a quality backup and Pangos as a future star.

Of course Bell and Pangos will have some growing pains. My point in using examples was just to show that small, outside the box type lineups can and have been successful.

In keeping with today's series of sarcastic posts....

...expect a thread any second about the banning of thinking outside the box...

tick, tick, tick....

Go ZAGS!

bostonzagfan
10-17-2011, 12:59 PM
PG: Pangos
SG: Bell
SF: Hart
PF: Spangler
C: Sacre

Carter and Dower first off the bench.

where's Harris? the 8th man? Guess Stockton's the 9th man, Landry-Edi the 10th?

sorry but thats an unrealistic expectation.

Therunner
10-17-2011, 01:23 PM
PG: Game 1 is Stocks. Pangos by Christmas Break.
SG: GBJ
SF: 'Quise (Hoff or Landry in vs certain teams/situations)
PF: Harris
C: Sacre

Dower 1st off bench in Frontcourt. The 3 guards will rotate interchangeably outside of Pangos/Stocks at the 1. Landry and Hoff are 7th or 8th man depending on match-ups. Remember, Carter can play 1, 2, or 3, so he'll be on the court 30+mins a game to keep our young backcourt in check. Spangler is a 9th or 10th man this season, but when Coach Few is upset with the effort on the floor, lack of toughness, or rebounding, Spangler will go in, but mostly receive minutes much like Dower did last season i.e., 5 mins one game, 22 mins the next. I think KO will be very situational but find a way to log 15-20 mins per game. He'll play mostly PF to spell Elias, but will work the middle, and even some 3 vs WCC teams. Coach Few is really high on him and deservedly so, but also realizes KO is at his best in drills, practices, and on paper. If he finds a way to put it together and play "steady" on defense, he might just crack the starting lineup by season's end. From the list above, Carter, Elias, & Sacre are the ONLY givens, imho. From what I'm hearing, the Coaches are expecting Gary Bell to hit the ground running and be a Top-3 option in this offense as early as this season. Pangos is known as the 'best shooter' on the team in Fall camp(even heard a "Dickau Jr" thrown around) -- we'll see if that translates to games.

Its gonna be a fun one...

Beer_Engineer
10-17-2011, 03:33 PM
To start, i would think we'll see:

Carter
Bell
Harris
Dower Power
Sacre

What a great problem to have!

Hopefully, Pangos will be starter ready by WCC time...

mdZag23
10-18-2011, 08:14 AM
I care who finishes!

cggonzaga
10-18-2011, 10:49 PM
I've always found this form of thinking funny. The guys that start are majority of the time the best players on the team and thus finish games. It's not like 5 different guys end games. At the most it could be two. Let's face it Rob, EH, Bell and Carter are going to be in at the end of a close game (if there is no foul trouble). My guess is also whoever starts at the point will also be in at the end of the game.

EngineerZag
10-19-2011, 08:25 AM
I would love to see a lineup of Sacre, Dower, Harris, Carter/Bell, Stockton/Pangos.

Martin Centre Mad Man
10-19-2011, 08:58 AM
I don't think Dower would start in the big lineup. By using a line up that has Elias as the small forward with Kelly on the floor with him as the power forward, it allows Elias to work in the post against players not accustomed to playing post D. Should the other team decide to use a bigger forward to guard Harris then the advantage goes to Kelly who has shown an improved game down low and the ability to shoot over the shorter defender from the perimeter. Kelly's ball skills would complement the team better to start the game, he is not player that needs to score to stay happy, Sam on the other hand looks like the type of player who's energy increases when he scores the ball....great off the bench when one or two starters are sitting and he is more of a focal point.

I tend to agree. If three bigs are on the floor, it will be Harris and K.O. together as the forwards. Unlike Dower and Sacre, those two guys have the ability to draw defenders away from the rim by hitting outside shots. For his size, K.O. is also an excellent passer and ball handler in the open court and in half court sets. Harris is excellent at driving to the rim. The advantage to having both of them out there is that the defense is going to have to put a smaller defender on one or the other of them. The forward with the larger defender can then float out to the three point line and let the other forward punish the little defender down low.

On that note, I believe that K.O. is most effective when Sacre is also on the floor with him. I really enjoyed watching K.O.'s ability to pass over 6'6"/6'7' defenders into Sacre on the low block. When Sacre is out of the game, teams can put their taller defender on K.O. and negate some of his height advantage on the high post or on the wing.

Timeout!
10-19-2011, 09:31 AM
Much like the start of last season, except Stocks for Meech, and Bell Jr for Gray. We seem quick to forget KO started at PF our first 7 games last year -- he wasn't ready to play tall or down low on a consistent basis. He's ready & confident now. I think he gets another shot. Gary is replacing what Gray brought to the team the past two years i.e., defense, slashing ability, and a shot to stretch the defense. Elias worked harder than he ever has at losing 10lbs and working on his lateral speed this off-season to refine his NBA & Euro-pro position. He wants to try SF again and will receive one more shot by Coach Few being loyal to a fault w/ upperclassmen.

Projected starting lineup(Game 1):

Stocks
GBJ
Elias
Dower
Sacre

1st off bench in back court: 'Quise to play the 1, 2, and 3 when situation calls for it, will still receive 25-30 mins per.

1st off bench in front court: KO when we need a change of pace, more ball movement, or when Hoff comes in to exploit the zone with his high-low post passing.

Hoff comes in when defense goes Zone or when Quise plays the 1 and GBJ sits.

Pangos grows, matures, and claims the starting spot by Christmas Break, starts the season with 10-15 mins, 20+ by season's end.

Given the youth, inexperience, and experimenting, we'll see several changes in the backcourt as the season progresses. Some players will be exposed on defense, others on offense, others with growing pains, etc.

That is my starting lineup.

roxdoc
10-19-2011, 09:54 AM
Its interesting to see how several people are looking at:

5. Sacre (Kelly sub)

4. Dower (Spangler sub?)

when last year it was:

5. Sacre (Dower sub)

4. Harris (Kelly sub)

So tempting to repeat failed attempt for Harris at 3 just to accomodate Kelly/Dower play time. Do we gain more than we loose?

BULLDOG#1
10-19-2011, 02:04 PM
Carter, Sacre, and Harris should be in everyone's starting five.

Still seems like Carter is under the radar with this board. I would not be shocked if Carter ended up conference POY -- but the team will be better if the POY is Harris (which would mean he's back with a vengence).

Starting PG i'm hoping is Pangos -- which would mean he's as good as hyped.

U Zig, I Zag
10-19-2011, 02:30 PM
First 2-3 games will all start out the same.
Stockton
Carter
MM
E
Rob

Whether Few sticks with that or not is a different story (my money is on 'no').


* and I say MM because I think Few wants E to play the 3 and he will have to prove that he can. If he does move and is getting burned on D or can't get around his guy on O then he slides down to the 4 and works the inside-outside mismatch (like the last two years).

A guy (ha!) that we will see more of than we are expecting (at least based on talk on the board): Landry < - count discount pure athleticism, we have always tried to have one of those guys on the team and that's why he is here.

Guy we will see less of, surprising considering he is a Junior: KO

ZagsGoZags
10-20-2011, 01:00 AM
no way MM starts at the 3 for the first few games

put your money down $$$$

did he learn how to do something besides shoot when he is open, during the summer? his PT was pitiful by the end of last season


be more like

stocks, carter, harris, sacre and ???

well hart? edi ? maybe you are right just because coach almost never starts a frosh out of the blocks.

but in no time, after a couple of games


carter at the 3 , with stocks Pango and Bell doing the 1 and 2

just my opinion

mobetta
10-20-2011, 07:36 AM
Starters at the beginning of the season:

Stockton
Carter
Harris
Olynyk
Sacre

2nd unit:

Pangos
Bell
????
Spangler
Dower

Competing for the backup 3 spot:

Landry
Monninghoff
Keita
Hart

Redshirting:

Sarbaugh
Dranginis

Few really does have a tendency to reward upperclassmen and insists on a new player earning his playing time. Both Pangos and Bell could do that before the first game, and so could Dower and Spangler. All four of them appear to have the talent and motivation. But, Few likes to give them something to work for. I think that Dower is better than Olynyk in some ways, but I agree with the logic presented earlier that he is a far better focus for the second unit. This second unit may be as good as the first unit and will be playing against lesser competition. Our depth is truly amazing this year.

It is going to be a dog fight for playing time at the 3 for the second unit. Who knows who will emerge? Can the coaching staff bring this team together in time for our OOC games? What about the WCC? What about the dance? This looks to be the most interesting season in some time. There is no limit, but the youth is always unpredictable. Sit back, fasten your seat belt, because a really fun ride is about to begin. Just think, 30+ games are on our near horizon. The off season is almost over.

Zag79
10-20-2011, 11:03 PM
theres no way carter, sacre, and harris dont start. thats a given. if GBJ is so good that he has to start, carter will be playing instead of stockton without a doubt. i would like to see more dower, but him coming off the bench is a great boost after our initial line up has made an impact in the game. i dont care who starts or gets more playing time, i just want the lineup that produces the most wins to be on the floor when it matters most.

CB4
10-21-2011, 01:01 AM
PG: Pangos
SG: Bell
SF: Harris
PF: Dower
C: Sacre

This would be the line up any other coach would start but its always a guessing game with few so we could see Stockton and Carter in the line up instead of Pangos and Dower. Regardless, the line up will be good if managed correctly. Harris playing anything but the three is short sighted and not in his best interests.

jazzdelmar
10-21-2011, 02:51 AM
PG: Pangos
SG: Bell
SF: Harris
PF: Dower
C: Sacre

This would be the line up any other coach would start but its always a guessing game with few so we could see Stockton and Carter in the line up instead of Pangos and Dower. Regardless, the line up will be good if managed correctly. Harris playing anything but the three is short sighted and not in his best interests.

ty and +1....on all counts.

RenoZag
10-21-2011, 06:59 AM
I don't care who starts or gets more playing time, I just want the lineup that produces the most wins to be on the floor when it matters most.


:000tens:

zagfan24
10-21-2011, 07:23 AM
i dont care who starts or gets more playing time, i just want the lineup that produces the most wins to be on the floor when it matters most.

Agreed 100%...though I would argue that "it matters most" for all 40 minutes.

I've seen plenty of games where a minute near the end of the first half or in the middle of the second half has a drastic impact on the final score. The end of the game can appear most important because it's closest temporally to the outcome, but in my opinion the greatest importance will be finding a rotation throughout the game which maintains consistent production on both ends of the floor.

I believe the 2011-12 Zags have the depth and flexibility to prevent major lapses from occurring, though with fresh faces it may take the coaching staff some time to figure out the right combinations of players.

cjm720
10-21-2011, 09:24 AM
Harris playing anything but the three is short sighted and not in his best interests.

I thought this was a team sport?

Worthington
10-21-2011, 09:59 AM
I don't think we'll have a set starting lineup, Coach Few is smart enough to exploit other teams lineups with our versatility night in and night out.

I think by the end of the year however, my favorite group will be either;

Sacre
Harris
Carter
Bell
Pangos

or

Sacre
Olynyk
Harris
Carter
Bell

Depending on how Harris fares at small forward

Baldwinzag
10-21-2011, 10:08 AM
Depending on how Harris fares at small forward

This is what scares me a little.

I don't want to have Elias practice all-preseason long at SF, play the 1st couple games at the Wing, and have Coach Few & him decide to experiment once again; meanwhile, we've lost 4 our of the 1st 7 games again and start 3-4 and in a huge hole. It took us another 6 weeks to find our groove again once we moved Elias back to PF, his natural college position.

Its pretty frustrating. I want Harris to succeed at whatever position he plays, yet not at the expense of the team just so he can entice NBA scouts.

If he starts the season at SF, then just stick with it, b/c Dower can do just fine at PF. Elias will never be a 15ppg scorer at the Wing, imo, but if he practices there, wants to play there, is a good fit for the team there, then stay with it.

It severely hurt us last season, along with the development of Elias in his Soph season and other players who deserved more PT.

Reborn
10-21-2011, 10:39 AM
Sacre
Harris
Monninghoff/Landry
Carter
Pangos

northsidezagfan
10-21-2011, 10:43 AM
Sacre
Harris
Monninghoff/Landry
Carter
Pangos

+1. Bell/Dower 1st off the bench. You can do a lot of lineup shuffling with those 7 guys (Carter to the 1, Harris to the 3, Carter to the 3, Bell at the 1 or 2, etc) to find a good combination.

MaroonZag22
10-21-2011, 12:04 PM
...



No, you are not the only one. It was talked about extensively last year. In the NBA power forwards usually range from 6' 9" to 7' and 240 to 260 pounds. Elias Harris is a 6' 7" inch 220lb. Why not put dower in the 4 spot at 6'9" 248?

It seems to me according to size, experience and quality, things should go down this way. Where I am wrong Bob?

PG: Stockton /sub Pangos
SG: Cater / Sub Bell
SF: Harris / sub Mönninghoff
PF: Dower / sub Landry
C: Sacre / sub Olynyk

Wait...you want Harris at SF b/c he is better there based off of height. But you want to sub Landry (6'4") into PF. Did you mean Spangler per chance? Otherwise I am extremely confused!

cjm720
10-21-2011, 01:11 PM
The whole Harris at the 3 experiment could work this year. He's not hurt and believe we'll have better floor spacing, better bball IQ.

kitzbuel
10-21-2011, 01:23 PM
Stockton
Carter
Harris
Dower
Sacre

OK-ZagFan
10-21-2011, 01:39 PM
Guys I hate to tell you this and I do not keep up with what goes on in Wash. or Canada, but I will tell you, and you can mark this down, Spangler is going to see alot of minutes on the floor this year. I do not want to come back and tell you " I told you so" I am letting you know now. I will be bad for someone from Oklahoma to be more accurate than you guys because most of you are in that area, but I am telling you it is going to happen. If you guys want to continue on "what if - you can" I am just telling you what is going to happen. Take it for what it is worth.

matty1090
10-22-2011, 11:10 AM
Stepp
Knight
Morrison
Turiaf
Violette

I know Morrisons only a freshman, but for some reason I really think he has potential. I know Skinner had that great game in the tournament last year, and he and Bankhead are Seniors, but that tall skinny kid from Spokane seems like he could be really, really good. I also think we need Knight's athleticism on the wing. I mean, he did guarantee us a trip to the final four, there's no way he could be wrong.

Sorry if this post is a little outdated, Im getting old and my memory's kind of shot. What year is it anyway?

RenoZag
10-22-2011, 12:02 PM
Guys I hate to tell you this and I do not keep up with what goes on in Wash. or Canada, but I will tell you, and you can mark this down, Spangler is going to see alot of minutes on the floor this year. I do not want to come back and tell you " I told you so" I am letting you know now. I will be bad for someone from Oklahoma to be more accurate than you guys because most of you are in that area, but I am telling you it is going to happen. If you guys want to continue on "what if - you can" I am just telling you what is going to happen. Take it for what it is worth.

I hope he adjusts to the speed of the college game and makes a great contribution to this year's team.

bostonzagfan
10-22-2011, 04:10 PM
Stepp
Knight
Morrison
Turiaf
Violette

I know Morrisons only a freshman, but for some reason I really think he has potential. I know Skinner had that great game in the tournament last year, and he and Bankhead are Seniors, but that tall skinny kid from Spokane seems like he could be really, really good. I also think we need Knight's athleticism on the wing. I mean, he did guarantee us a trip to the final four, there's no way he could be wrong.

Sorry if this post is a little outdated, Im getting old and my memory's kind of shot. What year is it anyway?

your crazy. This Morrison kid will never be anything special.

RockandRollJames
10-22-2011, 04:24 PM
My starting lineup since the day Pangos committed has been:

Pangos
Bell
Carter
Harris
Sacre

And I have no changes. It has to be this.

GUZag08
10-22-2011, 05:24 PM
My starting lineup since the day Pangos committed has been:

Pangos
Bell
Carter
Harris
Sacre

And I have no changes. It has to be this.

seconded

ZagNative
10-22-2011, 06:50 PM
The new guys liked the experience:
llcoollandry Guy Landry
Great time today love the fans they rocking #Gonzagafans
10 minutes ago
»
Ryan Spangler
Rspangler15 Ryan Spangler
The kennel club is loud! #itsnice
12 minutes ago

titopoet
10-22-2011, 08:06 PM
I wanted to wait until I saw the new guys,

Pangos
Carter
MM
EH
Sacre

Seeing KP sealed the deal for me on PG. MM for the fact that he opens the lane and with KP finding him the corner, that is 4 good to great shooters on the perimeter to open up Sacre and EH inside.

OZZY
10-22-2011, 08:35 PM
I wanted to wait until I saw the new guys,

Pangos
Carter
MM
EH
Sacre

Seeing KP sealed the deal for me on PG. MM for the fact that he opens the lane and with KP finding him the corner, that is 4 good to great shooters on the perimeter to open up Sacre and EH inside.

Make that five, as I think that your forgetting that Big Rob has the best long range percentage of them all! 1/1 from downtown = 100%.

KP is the real deal and with a little help Coach Few found him.

titopoet
10-23-2011, 05:59 AM
Make that five, as I think that your forgetting that Big Rob has the best long range percentage of them all! 1/1 from downtown = 100%.

KP is the real deal and with a little help Coach Few found him.

I think your right about Rob hitting the 3, but I am sure he has the green light. He will only attempt a 3 deep in the clock, and with KP running the show, deep in the clock will be rare.

Therunner
10-23-2011, 07:57 AM
If it were up to the assistant Coaches, Kevin Pangos would certainly get the start. Coach Lloyd even saying he's been one of the best players on the team in every practice and the 2ND leading scorer thus far(btw, who is 1st?).

At the end of the day, its up to Coach Few and his determined loyalty to certain players or past accomplishments. This means Stockton will start the season. I've said this all along stating by Christmas break, Pangos starts. After showing the World he can't be sat in favor of others, he'll have no choice but to start him.

Kind of like the Vikings forced to sit McNabb this weekend and going with the Rookie b/c he showed better command, talent, and leadership than his veteran starter. The Coach didn't want to do it, not yet, but he has no choice as the fans and administration is forcing his hand. Give the young kid, who has surpassed all expectations in practice, a shot. He's the better long-term option for the team's success and needs seasoning now.

I find this situation pretty similar. No way Coach Few has the guts to start a Freshman POINT GUARD. It has never happened in the history of this program, why change now? No way. I have a feeling there are disagreements in the Coaches conference room just as much as there are on this board. Its human nature.

Hey, the good news, David Stockton is pretty darn good. We're in good hands either way. Stock is mentally tough, has a solid shot, understands the offense, is the locker room clown, and makes the right play more often than not. He will get the shot, no doubt in my mind, and that is OK with me. It will take half this season to hand the offense over to Mr. Pangos.

jazzdelmar
10-23-2011, 08:04 AM
I find this situation pretty similar. No way Coach Few has the guts to start a Freshman POINT GUARD. It has never happened in the history of this program, why change now? No way. I have a feeling there are disagreements in the Coaches conference room just as much as there are on this board. Its human nature.


that wd be pretty dumb as well.....its not like stocks is a 3 year starter with some notches on his belt. he just looked good last year compared to the other point guard who was awful. same goes for bell v carter. no track record there either. loyalty is wonderful if you are choosing between two players who are almost similar. from yestys reports, it look like kp is way ahead. but no one ever said few is never self destructively stubborn.

sittingon50
10-23-2011, 08:06 AM
Santangelo started as a Frosh (RS), Runner. And went on to become # 1 in assists. Stepp started at the 2 but then played the 1 when Dickau broke his finger. #2 in assists.

jazzdelmar
10-23-2011, 08:08 AM
Santangelo started as a Frosh, Runner.


blake did too, when DDD went down....

zag67
10-23-2011, 08:15 AM
In the beginning, I do not care which one starts Pangos or Stockton. I think that for the first part of the year he may start Stockton to allow Pangos to watch for a couple of minutes to find any tendancies of the person that is guarding him and he will guard. That will take the pressure off in the start and allow him to see the speed of the game.

I can also see the same happening with Bell and that they both would be going in very soon. It is not who starts, but I do think both of them will be playing MAJOR minutes.

EuroZag2010
10-23-2011, 08:47 AM
i really like Edi he looked good last night I would want him to start at wing ... with E, Rob Quise and Kevin

bartruff1
10-23-2011, 08:54 AM
I find this situation pretty similar. No way Coach Few has the guts to start a Freshman POINT GUARD. It has never happened in the history of this program, why change now? No way. I have a feeling there are disagreements in the Coaches conference room just as much as there are on this board. Its human nature.


that wd be pretty dumb as well.....its not like stocks is a 3 year starter with some notches on his belt. he just looked good last year compared to the other point guard who was awful. same goes for bell v carter. no track record there either. loyalty is wonderful if you are choosing between two players who are almost similar. from yestys reports, it look like kp is way ahead. but no one ever said few is never self destructively stubborn.

I will say that Few is never self destructively stubborn, so one is not no one.

The509sfinest
10-23-2011, 09:40 AM
I am now glad we got the ranking we have because I know we are better than 23rd and I'm happy were going to surprise everybody! No doubt we are the best in the west yet again!

zagamatic
10-23-2011, 01:08 PM
There's a reason that most coaches don't start true freshman, and that reason is two fold. First, it undermines the confidence of your established point guard. Then ,when you need him to start , they have issues. Second is that freshman point guards, redshirt or true freshman, almost always end up goin against a team that rattles them and it can take several games to recover. Again, it all comes down to the speed of the game transition from high school to college.
Don't get me wrong, I am EXTREMELY hopeful that Pangos can contribute right away. Nothing would make me happier than to have no question marks at point guard. And I was very impressed with his play against the same guys he' been goin against every day just like everyone else. But it's goin up against elite talent that you haven't played against where you find out how good you are.
On a side note, did anyone else notice the similarity between Gary Bell Jr and Pargo? I expect him to have the same growing pains as Pargo did figuring out how to use his athleticism against D1 athletes. I think he'll rarely be equaled in athleticism at his position just like Pargo. However , I also remember a whole lot of people calling for Pargo's head until he learned how to select the proper speed for the proper situation and i I expect the same from GBJ. Of course, these are just opinions.
I am actually very impressed overall by everyone's play at the scrimmage. And was very happy to see Dower score goin to his right. I am so ready for that first jump ball!!!!!

04ZagFan
10-23-2011, 01:34 PM
There's a reason that most coaches don't start true freshman, and that reason is two fold. First, it undermines the confidence of your established point guard. Then ,when you need him to start , they have issues. Second is that freshman point guards, redshirt or true freshman, almost always end up goin against a team that rattles them and it can take several games to recover.

1- We don't have an established PG. Stockton did some good things for us last year, but Meech was our starting PG for 2 years. This year is wide open. Best player gets the nod.

The reason why it has been rare to see a starting freshman PG at Gonzaga since Few took over is very simple.

Santangelo-Dickau-Stepp(who actually did start as a freshman)-Raivio-Pargo-Meech.

It's been set up perfectly since day 1. Meech has been the first disappointment at PG, and we're now entering 2011-2012 without an obvious starting PG. I don't believe loyalty has anything to do with it. Last year, Stockton had some serious flaws to go along with his surprising success, mainly on the defensive end. Meech didn't play because of Few's loyalty, Meech play because we needed his athleticism. Don't be at all surprised to see Mr. Pangos starting from day 1. And if it's Stockton, don't look at it as loyalty, look at it as David has really improved during the offseason, and is ready to lead this team.

maynard g krebs
10-23-2011, 02:32 PM
On a side note, did anyone else notice the similarity between Gary Bell Jr and Pargo? I expect him to have the same growing pains as Pargo did figuring out how to use his athleticism against D1 athletes. I think he'll rarely be equaled in athleticism at his position just like Pargo. However , I also remember a whole lot of people calling for Pargo's head until he learned how to select the proper speed for the proper situation and i I expect the same from GBJ.

I saw half a dozen of GBJ's games last year. While he and Pargo are similar in size and body type, there are differences. Gary's game was very mature as a hs player. He scored a lot because he could, and his team wasn't very good outside of him. I also thought he showed excellent recognition of game situations, understanding when to push it and when not to, and when he needed to take over v. when to get his teammates involved.

He's on record as saying he chose GU because Few told him he'd have the ball in his hands from day 1, and no other coach told him that. That means Few believes he has a high bb iq. All fr have some growing pains, but having seen Gary a lot, I think he'll be a better decision maker than Pargo was at GU. And he's an excellent shooter, something Pargo wasn't then.

They are far from being the same player.

Malastein
10-23-2011, 02:58 PM
Stockton will start and Pangos will learn a lot from him. ...Please read this article as a reality check.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Kevin-Pangos-5873/

There's nothing in that article which convinces me that Stockton should start over Pangos. In fact, being featured in an article on draftexpress makes me think even more that he should start over Stockton. The proof is in the pudding, and the consensus leaving this scrimmage is that Pangos should start. He'll certainly need to work on his game if he's going to go down as one of Gonzaga's greatest, but if he is the better player then there is no reason he shouldn't start.

titopoet
10-23-2011, 02:58 PM
Stockton will start and Pangos will learn a lot from him. Some of the comments on here are clearly over the top. Please don't come back and start bashing MF on the board, when he starts Stockton. Don't ruin the moral of the board, just because you drank some Kool-Aid please. I can't take another year of PG arguments. Being the second leading scorer on a team in practice, does not make you the starting PG for the season.

Who the better passer, play maker and ball handler will make the PG as long as Stockton has the ability to be a threat at scoring. After a two hour practice, it is hard to judge anything, except Stockton can still make great passes down low when he is tired and Pangos can keep hitting them. Maybe both of them will share the floor at times, we will have to see.

If anyone can find it, I suggest that you go back and review the Kansas State game last year, where Stockton played 17 minutes over Meech. during those 17 minutes we stopped going further in the hole. How they Play against stiff/athletic competition is how few will judge them and we are not there yet and won't be for at least a couple of games. That KSU team was the most athletic team, I think Gonzaga has played in many years.


The better passer last night was KP, and play maker. Also, good suggestion, but don't forget to review the St John's game. DS was quickly attacked by the johnnies guards and benched. The rest of the teams we play next year also will review that game and DS will be attacked. And, as the Johnnies proved with blowout wins against Duke and others due to their quickness, they were a much more athletic team than KSU.

NotoriousZ
10-23-2011, 03:10 PM
(1) Pangos subs: Stockton, Carter, Bell
(2) Bell subs: Carter, MM, Keita
(3) Carter subs: Edi, MM, Harris
(4) Harris subs: Dower, Spangler, Olynyk
(5) Sacre subs: Dower, Olynyk, Spangler

zagfan1
10-23-2011, 03:53 PM
The lineup I am enamored with would be:

Pangos - Stockton second and then Bell
Carter - Bell Second and then Keita
Harris - Carter second and then Landry and Monninghoff and Hart
Dower - Harris second and then Kelly O
Sacre - Dower second and maybe Spangler if he does not redshirt

I think Dower is too good to keep off the floor. But Harris needs to be able to handle that position for this to work.

jazzdelmar
10-23-2011, 04:47 PM
Still, Pangos, Bell, Harris, Dower, Sacre.....the five best players with the highest upside.

Therunner
10-23-2011, 04:58 PM
nt

kyle dixon
01-22-2012, 07:48 AM
Crazy. BZ was pretty spot on that it could take 3/4 of the season to iron out our rotation.

OZZY
01-22-2012, 12:51 PM
Crazy. BZ was pretty spot on that it could take 3/4 of the season to iron out our rotation.

Yup BZ had the rotation 3/4 year thing in a nutshell.

Pangos has sure proved many skeptics wrong (I won't even go back to the Canadian player in Canada concerns from last year!). Perhaps some on this board where a bit more knowledgable than they are given credit for.............

It looks like Edi has earned his 3 spot. With Rob getting his Mojo back this starting lineup can do so much damage, and when Spangler is back they will have a backup in each position that can provide quailty minutes.