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Hogan
04-18-2011, 10:00 PM
I sure like the kool-aid some of you have been drinking,even Jazz seems almost giddy. Heck its the off-season so why not. But I'll play the pessimist. The idea that we could start two freshmen and still be a good Zag team(ie top 15-25) seems ludicrous to me. I love our in-coming freshmen, but these are not top ten type recruits. We saw how Pangos struggled against the US team.Dranginis in particular,imho,needs a lot of work. I've only seen him play one time and I know it is foolish to conclude too much from just one observation, but you can get a pretty good sense of a players size and athleticism. Based on what I saw he will be a below average athlete for this level. That's OK, it just means he has to make up for it with great skill. Based on his free throw and 3 point shooting percentages he has some work to do.Its going to take time for all our freshmen .I really fear our 1,2 and 3 positions will be mediocre at best (again comparing them to other top 25 teams).Which is a shame because we should be real strong inside.

cggonzaga
04-18-2011, 10:31 PM
Hopefully you'll be pleasantly surprised. I would highly suggest to not take too much out of Pangos' game against the U.S. team.

zagitarious
04-18-2011, 11:25 PM
no matter how these kids shape up, we'll still be better than this last year.

Gin N GUice
04-18-2011, 11:34 PM
I sure like the kool-aid some of you have been drinking,even Jazz seems almost giddy. Heck its the off-season so why not. But I'll play the pessimist. The idea that we could start two freshmen and still be a good Zag team(ie top 15-25) seems ludicrous to me. I love our in-coming freshmen, but these are not top ten type recruits. We saw how Pangos struggled against the US team.Dranginis in particular,imho,needs a lot of work. I've only seen him play one time and I know it is foolish to conclude too much from just one observation, but you can get a pretty good sense of a players size and athleticism. Based on what I saw he will be a below average athlete for this level. That's OK, it just means he has to make up for it with great skill. Based on his free throw and 3 point shooting percentages he has some work to do.Its going to take time for all our freshmen .I really fear our 1,2 and 3 positions will be mediocre at best (again comparing them to other top 25 teams).Which is a shame because we should be real strong inside.

Go to bed.

CDC84
04-19-2011, 08:24 AM
Anyone who thinks Pangos struggled against the USA Select Team at the Nike Hoop Summit should ask themselves how Gonzaga's present point guards would perform against future lottery picks like Austin Rivers, Marquise Teague and Bradley Beal. My guess: possibly worse. The USA Select guards were absolute studs.

The reason why people are suggesting that freshmen could start next year and such has as much to do with the quality of the returning players as it does the quality of the incoming freshmen. The plain truth is that David Stockton and Meech Goodson inspire less confidence than any set of returning guards Mark Few has had since he took over the program. I know everyone doesn't feel that, but I do, and I know I am not alone.

jazzdelmar
04-19-2011, 08:28 AM
Anyone who thinks Pangos struggled against the USA Select Team at the Nike Hoop Summit should ask themselves how Gonzaga's present point guards would perform against future lottery picks like Austin Rivers, Marquise Teague and Bradley Beal. My guess: possibly worse. The USA Select guards were absolute studs.

The reason why people are suggesting that freshmen could start next year and such has as much to do with the quality of the returning players as it does the quality of the incoming freshmen. The plain truth is that David Stockton and Meech Goodson inspire less confidence than any set of returning guards Mark Few has had since he took over the program. I know everyone doesn't feel that, but I do, and I know I am not alone.



CDC- a brilliant, well reasoned, accurate, unchallengeable post, imo.....conjuring up last years guards (incl carter) agst the likes of austin rivers sickens the stomach....

CDC84
04-19-2011, 08:38 AM
I do like what Marquise Carter has to offer more than Meech and Stockton. Do I think he's the second coming of Dan Dickau? No. But Carter did rescue Gonzaga last year. No way GU makes the NCAA tourney without him stepping up. He can do more things on the floor than the other 2 guys. He can shoot it from distance and defend. And he has size. He isn't a liability out there on defense or offense. At worst he is ordinary. That isn't the case with the other two guys who have and will likely forever have holes that can be exploited by top 25 level opponents.

I also don't include Carter in this as much because of his versatility. I think we are going to be seeing him at the "3" more next year than some people realize, although he probably won't be employed as a traditional "3." He'll just be another guard on the floor.

Hogan
04-19-2011, 08:49 AM
I agree with CDC's comments. I just don't think that changes the concern with the idea of starting two freshmen.

zag944
04-19-2011, 09:16 AM
why is "drinking the kool-aid" an acceptable term?

Are you "doing what happened to kill 909 members of a religous cult" with next years team?

CDC84
04-19-2011, 09:24 AM
I agree with CDC's comments. I just don't think that changes the concern with the idea of starting two freshmen.

Very much agree with you.

BobZag
04-19-2011, 10:22 AM
I shake my fist at the heavens and defy the gods.

23dpg
04-19-2011, 10:33 AM
why is "drinking the kool-aid" an acceptable term?

Are you "doing what happened to kill 909 members of a religous cult" with next years team?

Drinking the kool-aid is a metaphor that means to go along with others in a group, without questioning the validity of such actions. It does come directly from the Jonestown massacre.

MDABE80
04-19-2011, 10:36 AM
I'd rather lose a few with the new kids playing than win a few but sacrifice experience of the the Bell and Pangos axis. They are our future....and I don't think we'll be losing much even if they end up taking lots of minutes.

Pangos did fine at the Nike Challenge considering he only played 16 minutes and it was a team with multiple foreign tongues.....in fact I don't even know how one might evaluate him in that game. It was a mass of confusion (Phil Collins). The kids he played against were a.. 5 star kids......he needed help...didn't have it. About th eonly way he could generate universal acclaim is if he'd had put up 30 and never have missed a 3 pt shot.
That game , in retrospect, was an impossible situation for the world team.

jazzdelmar
04-19-2011, 10:48 AM
the notion that frosh cant play and deliver bigtime is antiquated. Uconn and Ky are obviously blessed w five star kids, but still their freshmen start and play well. closer to home, i point to our own dinky WCC and recent examples of point guards starting and starring as frosh. i agree w Doc that i wd rather invest minutes in the newbies (assuming they are more steven holt, foster and kemba walker and less gibbs and vilarino and etc) than to sit thru another 30 games w last years incumbents....

ZagLawGrad
04-19-2011, 11:55 AM
the notion that frosh cant play and deliver bigtime is antiquated. Uconn and Ky are obviously blessed w five star kids, but still their freshmen start and play well. closer to home, i point to our own dinky WCC and recent examples of point guards starting and starring as frosh. i agree w Doc that i wd rather invest minutes in the newbies (assuming they are more steven holt, foster and kemba walker and less gibbs and vilarino and etc) than to sit thru another 30 games w last years incumbents....

Noble thought, but not gonna happen any time soon. That's just the way it is.

ZagNut08
04-19-2011, 12:25 PM
The majority of our top 50/75 kids have come in and started/seen major minutes (daye, bouldin, etc.) and our teams seemed to do fine then, and it benefited them later in their careers since they were pivotal players. I see Bell in a similar light and think he will be starting from day 1 and will be a valuable core of our team moving forward.

Goshzagit
04-19-2011, 12:38 PM
Noble thought, but not gonna happen any time soon. That's just the way it is.

ZLG -- are you stating you don't think any Frosh are going and / or have a chance to start next season? Please elaborate, I'm curious what your post intended...

U Zig, I Zag
04-19-2011, 12:58 PM
Not sure 2,3 freshmen will ever start for a Few team unless they were absolute studs. Maybe these kids will be that way. What we have lacked the last couple years is a PG that is both strong AND quick, quick AND heady, heady AND a pure shooter, a pure shooter AND a guy that finishes at the rim.... you get my drift.

If we want to get over the hump we are going to need to acquire (or develop, in quick fashion) a 5-Star athlete at the 1,2 or 3. Whatever reason, this team hasn't finished games all that well or put people away like they should have (as of late, anyway).

And to the 'traditionalists': you don't have to sell your soul to get one. They can still be 'Zags', even if they only stay around a year or two. Blue collar is fine, I get it (Butler seems this way, but they also had some great athletes as well) but while we get all excited about a new kid maybe being like one of the old kids everyone else is moving ahead.

Personally, I think I am most excited for GBJ and Spangler (my kingdom for a big with soft hands/handles).

If I could have two wishes granted for next year it would be Rob kicks it up a notch (HANDS, HANDS, HANDS and using his power at the rim to finish better) and for Carter to be faster. I liked what he became, saved our bacon - but he needs to move quicker and with more assurance.

Goshzagit
04-19-2011, 01:17 PM
This question rings a 'Bell'.

Gary has the best chance of starting b/c his position(SG) is wide-open next season, not to mention his astounding skills on the basketball court. Gary is an amazing player and his abilities translate perfectly to this level. IF GBJ was literally 2-3" inches taller, he'd be a Top-10 recruit in the Country. He has it all; one of the best shooters in nation, solid athleticism, a warrior's mentality in the lane, court vision, and ball-handling/slashing. The only gripe is his atypical height for a bonafide star Shooting Guard. Not sure if many realize he's same height as Kevin Pangos i.e. 6'1". He may not look it on the court considering his strength and mature build, but he's just not very tall for a combo-guard at the elite level.

Having said that, he's a stud and will be for Gonzaga. No denying his talent and skills. He's better than Steven Gray at the same age, imho. His ceiling his higher than Bouldin's and his overall game is superior than any player in our current backcourt. Gary Bell would start for every program outside the Top-10 factory schools and Gonzaga is not above that -- yet. He will play, most likely start, and be a contributor in his Freshman season. Gary will play through growing pains and there is no doubt in my mind, Coach Few did indeed tell him, "From the moment you enroll at Gonzaga, the ball will be in your hands early and often."

Spangler will push the frontcourt for minutes, but I just don't feel his offensive game is quite good/explosive enough to play starter minutes(25+ mins). If Sam Dower(1st team ALL-state 5A Metro Minneapolis, 26 ppg, 12 rebs per) red-shirted his first season, there is always a chance Mr. Spangler will do the same. Now, there is little to no doubt Ryan is already our best rebounder and he hasn't even stepped foot on campus. I feel he'll receive minutes, but far less than many have projected for him. Olynyk is getting bigger and putting in the work as we speak, plus Dower is coming into his own, and Elias, Sacre will be back to their old ways next year.

This may sound crazy, but I'm personally the most excited, long-term speaking, for Kyle Draginis. I spoke about him at length in another thread, so won't elaborate too much here...he's the prototypical Gonzaga guard of old and he is the one I believe who can develop into THE next Blake Stepp in every sense of the term. Blake had the body early and Kyle does not. The moment Kyle puts on some muscle/strength to compete at this level, I believe he's going to take off and soar. He has the shot, vision, height, underrated handles, full-court passing, can play street ball w/a high IQ. He's the one I think will do the most with the least at the end of his 4 years, again, just my opinion.

Overall, its really a magical class. We can only hope we'll have the patience, appreciation, and williness to enjoy them for years to come...:)

HOOTER
04-19-2011, 01:29 PM
The kids he played against were a.. 5 star kids

The sort of competition the Zags may face in their non-conference schedule?

Vanzagger
04-19-2011, 01:55 PM
in those last two posts. I don't usually read the long ones.

would just like to add....I agree with others that Carter is sneaky fast....and GBJ may be 6'1 but i've read he plays much bigger.

zaggernaut
04-19-2011, 01:59 PM
IMO, if KP begins the season as a starter, than that means the coaches believe he is able run the offense as well as handle the point of attack on defense. Otherwise they will just stick with Meech or DS because they have more experience and each one can do one of those things really well.

So basically, if KP is a starter than I'll be more excited than worried.

U Zig, I Zag
04-19-2011, 02:11 PM
....I agree with others that Carter is sneaky fast....and GBJ may be 6'1 but i've read he plays much bigger.

Carter has a 'smoothness', which I like - maybe masks his overall speed. Tricks the eyes. I still want him to go at the rim with more vigor.

ZagLawGrad
04-19-2011, 02:18 PM
ZLG -- are you stating you don't think any Frosh are going and / or have a chance to start next season? Please elaborate, I'm curious what your post intended...

Correct---subject to the slight chance that one or more Frosh may sneak in after the first of the year as a starter. But let's face it, Carter and Meech have been the starters, and Few plays the starters.

Playing time is where it's at for the Frosh, not starting.

kyle dixon
04-19-2011, 02:37 PM
I love the matter of fact statement statements that freshman will not start, etc. because that is not the historic way that Few works. Well, the past two years the Zags have not advanced past the first weekend of March. A big reason why has to be attributed to the guard play. It needs to get better. That is why all preseason of last year Goodson, Stocks, and Carter were provided to prove they were the starter. Glimpses of great ball were exhibited by all of these players, however consistency on a night to night basis was questionable at best. On the same hand I am not Coach Few, I am just an armchair quarterback who supports my Zags!

MickMick
04-19-2011, 04:18 PM
If the youngins show their potential early on, Few is going to get them in there often.

No question about that. He wants them seasoned by the time the conference tournament rolls around.

People are looking at two different snapshots in time here. Of course the returning players will be further along when the season starts. The veterans will likely play and "look" much better when the season begins. People might go as far as to call a frosh or two a "bust" at the beginning.

The best way to view this is to look at how Carter transcended last season. It is likely that the frosh will follow a similar pattern. Conversely, I do think that Bell is the one player that could very well "hit the ground running" like many elite freshman guards have recently done.

As for the remaining frosh, I compare it to a car race. The fastest qualifier doesn't always win the race. It is 500 laps....not a 4 lap qualifier.

I expect the team, as a whole, will follow a similar pattern to last year. Start slow and finish strong.

Baseline
04-19-2011, 05:18 PM
This has been a very good speculative thread. The PG position is wide open and I think Pangos will see his time on the floor, but I expect David to compete very well.
In my opinion Bell is the 2 and will lock that position down as a freshman. Carter and Dragenis will get time when he gets a blow.
The 3 position is being talked about as carters, but I don't think he is big enough. I remember the game with St Marry's when Delly backed in in with his size several times and carter couldn't hold him out. To me the most natural person for this position is Dragenis, but I worry his weight and strength will be an issue. Potentially Kelly could play this, but he is getting to big and heavy. Ryan might be able to step in if he shows good mobility. This position is the most up for grabs.
The 4 is a problem, Harris, Dower, Kelly and Ryan all looking for time. I see somewhat of a rotation with the 4 and 5 position when Rob sits for a while.
I think Ryan may be the big surprise and create real problems for Few in getting him Playing time and Dragenis may end up with more playing time do to the position. It will be one interesting year.
Then again MM, Keita and Hart could upset everything I just said if they step up.

bballbeachbum
04-19-2011, 05:28 PM
bet you all that Meech would have grilled Rivers and forced the USA to try to attack with Rivers in the post...just saying

even if I am alone in this belief ;)

jazzdelmar
04-19-2011, 06:31 PM
bet you all that Meech would have grilled Rivers and forced the USA to try to attack with Rivers in the post...just saying

even if I am alone in this belief ;)



love is blind :)

bballbeachbum
04-19-2011, 06:34 PM
love is blind :)

that was funn, jazz. I laughed, man.

you don't think Meech could guard him?

jazzdelmar
04-19-2011, 06:36 PM
that was funn, jazz. I laughed, man.

you don't think Meech could guard him?



happy (late) valentines day, my friend.....

bballbeachbum
04-19-2011, 06:40 PM
happy (late) valentines day, my friend.....

love them all ;)

all this flack fires him up I think, he has that kind of mentality, like shown vs. Xavier

Gene Smith of Georgetown back in the days...reminds me of him

jazzdelmar
04-19-2011, 06:43 PM
love them all ;)

all this flack fires him up I think, he has that kind of mentality, like shown vs. Xavier

Gene Smith of Georgetown back in the days...reminds me of him



gene smith had a LOT of BASKETBALL players around him......

bballbeachbum
04-19-2011, 06:50 PM
true. Meech reminds me of him though, his role. Smith dominated his role

bballbeachbum
04-19-2011, 06:57 PM
it's a key role, I expect Meech to do it, too.

way I see it, this team has one more year to optimize his unique talents to Namdi Asomugha gifted talents and make other defensive assignments easier for others

bballbeachbum
04-19-2011, 07:11 PM
to keep it going here

Smith started, especially senior year :)

MDABE80
04-19-2011, 08:10 PM
The sort of competition the Zags may face in their non-conference schedule?


Nope/GU doesn't face many (if any) like the guard corps we saw two weeks ago...not with a Sr in HS anyway. Pangos isn't even a frosh yet. It's grossly unfair to say he had "his day" facing the US stars. First of all, those kids he faced were well above most we played this year.....and who among them ( Jimmer for instance) was a 5 star player? The answer is?

Further though, Kevin only had 3 english speakers. Tough for PG to figure out his team buddies when he can't talk to them. You must be able to talk to your mates or it's a big guessing game.
So no...Kevin was at a serious disadvantage quite apart from facing the super kids he was facing. "Switch" in Chinese or Polish anyone? More like an expletive.

Let's at least wait till he's a frosh before we talk smart....or at least lets see him play with some english speaking people he can communicate with. Or maybe even a bit more time than 16 minutes even?