PDA

View Full Version : Stocks/Bell/Pangos/Goodson/Carter



Colbyspapa
04-07-2011, 11:10 AM
Who is(are) our primary point guard(s) next year?

This person runs the offense, must be skilled at feeding the post as we have BEASTS inside, can't turn the ball over, not be a defensive liability, and must control the game. Who is our best fit?

Stockton worked really hard and stepped up last year, but there is a new class of athlete coming in who are competitors, who have the discipliine, skill and charisma to lead the team. The thing is, I have a hard time discounting a kid like Stockton. People have always told him he is too slow, too short, too thin, etc... But he still has prevailed everywhere he has gone. The kid is mentally strong and has heart for miles. He is also very disciplined. I can't discount him having a shot at 20+ minutes a game. Coaches trust him.

Meech is a senior who is lightening quick, took care of the ball this year and is a great defender. But Bell may be a clone of this with a much better shot.

Pangos sounds like the best all around point guard we have seen maybe ever at the school. I'd love to hear what everyone is thinking. I'm not oblivious to the fact that we will paly a lot of 3 guard sets this year, however, I think Carter has one of the spots locked up (at least on day one).

Colbyspapa
04-07-2011, 11:11 AM
Mods, it won't let me fix the spelling error in the title of this thread.

former1dog
04-07-2011, 11:19 AM
Pangos sounds like the best all around point guard we have seen maybe ever at the school.

Let's not let hyperbole get the better of us. Best ever? He's might be absolutely fantastic and a God send and still never rise to the best ever PG at Gonzaga.

Stockton, Stepp, Santangelo, Dickau were all awesome and have a legacy that will be hard to match for any PG, let alone a guy who's never played a minute of D1 ball.

Therunner
04-07-2011, 11:39 AM
Meech is a senior who is lightening quick, took care of the ball this year and is a great defender. But Bell may be a clone of this with a much better shot.


Just to prevent unfair comparisons or expectations, GBJ is far from "lighting quick". Actually, if people are expecting him to display elite level quickness/speed, its not going to happen. Bell is, indeed, an athletic presence on the floor, but he usually isn't the best overall athlete on the floor. He does it with skill, savvy, spreading defenses with his terrific shot, very solid cross-over, and an unbeliable ability to finish in traffic. He never penetrates to just draw the foul, but rather to score the ball with purpose. Gary is relentless in getting his shot off and finishing what he started. He has a knack for making acrobatic shots in the lane b/c he seems to will it in the hoop. If you've never seen him play, just watch game or highlight tapes and this immediately becomes evident. We don't have a player on this roster with a similar mentality/skill(Carter comes close with his soft touch) but its not the same. Its the difference b/w him being 1st Team all-state and Washington POY, imo. He FIGHTS for his right in the lane and even if he's getting fouled, pushed, blocked, etc, he does not take his eyes off the rim. He puts the ball in the hoop even when he's guarded closely or being fouled. We are missing this type of player -- Kemba Walker does this, so does Jimmer Fredette. Its the focus, purpose, and intent to score at ALL TIMES. Gary has that uncanny ability and will bring this to a backcourt that is grossly lacking it. Our current group of guards love to shoot the ball and try to make things happen, but just don't have the unique attribute to fight, fight, fight to score the ball.

When we do, its usually blocked, an ugly shot is taken, or we pass it off like a hot potato if we're guarded too closely. Gary goes for it and it usually works out for the best. He will have some growing pains and learn to balance this, but you know it when you see it. Its unique. Actually, its similar to what Steven Gray did on few occassions when he "turned it on" i.e. UConn game 2 yrs ago, San Diego St earlier this year, you get the point. Gray had the ability but rarely fought to score, yet when he pushed it, he excelled. For some odd reason, Gray HAD this ability but elected to launch 3 after 3 or wait for the curl screen to shoot his patented catch-n-shoot mid-range shot. It worked most of the time, but he let go of his special ability to will the ball in the hoop against traffic. Finally, we are getting a player who has this ability and has shown it time and time again.

I will say it again, Bell Jr doesn't have Kobe hops, D-Wade quicks, or even Meech's natural speed. He just doesn't and you will be dissappointed if you assume/think he does. However, his shot, ability to create, and especially score in the lane will not dissapoint. Honestly, Bell Jr is much more skilled, savvy, aware than most people actually give him credit for, considering they think his athleticism carries his game -- it helps, but it doesn't come first.

Reborn
04-07-2011, 11:39 AM
IMO Gonzaga will employ combo guards again next year, meaning that more then one person will bring the ball up court and run the offense. Bell, imo, will take Steven's position, and like Steve will have the ball in his hands a lot. Carter will not be in the dogfight for the other combo guard because he will be the starting two guard (shooting guard). I think to know the answer to that question is really tough right now. We don't know if Pangos will redshirt.

If he doesn't, imo, he's going to be playing a lot. Why would he want to waste a year not getting a lot of playing time. Let's assume Pangos plays, then the real dogfight for playing time will be between Meech and Stockton for the backup minutes behind Pongos.

Zag fnas will get a chance to discover more about Pangos this weekend in Portland. I'm really excited to see how he plays. I will revisit this thread on Sunday or Monday.

CDC84
04-07-2011, 11:52 AM
Why does there have to be a point guard? Why can't Gonzaga do what it has traditionally done with Pargo and Raivio, Stepp and Dickau, etc. Just have guards. Why does everyone need to have a label?

The team that just won the national title didn't have a clear cut point guard. You could argue that it was Kemba, but really, as soon as Napier came in, both became combos. It worked fine for the Huskies.

LongIslandZagFan
04-07-2011, 12:04 PM
Mods, it won't let me fix the spelling error in the title of this thread.

Stupid iPad won't let me... Will ty to fix later on a real computer.

NewLookZag
04-07-2011, 12:23 PM
Why does there have to be a point guard? Why can't Gonzaga do what it has traditionally done with Pargo and Raivio, Stepp and Dickau, etc. Just have guards. Why does everyone need to have a label?

The team that just won the national title didn't have a clear cut point guard. You could argue that it was Kemba, but really, as soon as Napier came in, both became combos. It worked fine for the Huskies.

I see what you mean, but Dickau/Pargo/Raivio/Stepp were all definitely Point Guards.. I would say they were all "true" PGs who just happened to be able to do even more than a true PG is asked of.

I see no similarities to those guys of the past, and the current Zags (not counting the incoming class.) We're going to need somebody who can really play PG.

I would say that the back court of Napier and Walker is ideal. Again, not counting our new guys, we don't have 2 guys that could do what they did.

The program is really going to NEED the incoming guards to be as good as advertised if we want to take it to another level. It's that simple.

CDC84
04-07-2011, 01:11 PM
I see no similarities to those guys of the past, and the current Zags (not counting the incoming class.) We're going to need somebody who can really play PG.

And that is the very reason why the "incoming class" (namely GBJ and Pangos) should be given every opportunity to start from day one. I'll gladly exchange inexperience and growing pains in favor of guards - that is, real Gonzaga guards - who can do a bit of everything. You must be able to be a point guard, but you also must be able to play off the ball. So the returning guards, if they wish to start and/or see major playing time, better work their tails off to make themselves into guards that meet the requirements. If the requirements are met, then things like experience in the program should be considered. But you must meet the requirements first, because unlike last season, the Zags have reinforcements now.

ZagLawGrad
04-07-2011, 01:29 PM
The expectations and adoration that show up on this Board about players who have yet to put on a Zags uniform seems to defy some obvious lessons from the past couple of years.

The Zags have lost several players in recent times who, despite all the pre-arrival hype, didn't have the package that it takes to cut it here: AP, GG, GJ, BK, just to name a few. Package meaning more than the ability just to dribble and shoot a basketball.

Reality check: If the transition from JC ball to this level is hard, the switch from HS to D-I is even a bigger plunge.

P.S. But then, the other reality is that we gotta have something to talk about for the next 7 months. :D

CDC84
04-07-2011, 01:53 PM
The expectations and adoration that show up on this Board about players who have yet to put on a Zags uniform seems to defy some obvious lessons from the past couple of years. The Zags have lost several players in recent times who, despite all the pre-arrival hype, didn't have the package that it takes to cut it here: AP, GG, GJ, BK, just to name a few. Package meaning more than the ability just to dribble and shoot a basketball.

I would argue that we have certain posters on this board who are "hyping" some returning players who, at the present time, just aren't good enough, period. Players who are severely one dimensional. That could change, but that is reality right now. Therefore, to suggest that some promising freshmen guards MIGHT be able to come in and a make a big impact - despite their inexperience - is not "hype." It's just picking the lesser of two evils.

Also, if anyone can't understand the concept that a guy like Gary Bell Jr. is a different class of player than Grant Gibbs or GJ Vilarino, they need to do more research. There are talent scouts and high school/AAU coaches out there who I swear will buy you a Mercedes if he turns out to be a flop.

TexasZagFan
04-07-2011, 02:09 PM
I could be wrong, but I have a really good feeling about Meech's play next year. He apparently handled the reduced minutes well, and I think the lessons learned translated into more productive minutes at the end of the year.

One thing we do know about this young man: he's fiercely competitive, and doesn't know how to back down from a challenge. The "young squires" arriving on campus better be ready to rumble.

I'm looking forward to all of the battles for precious court time next year. With the exception of Rob, positions 1-4 are open for the taking.

former1dog
04-07-2011, 02:14 PM
My thought on Pangos specifically.... If he is as good or better than advertised, he will still not start until at least 10 games into the season. Book it!

ZagLawGrad
04-07-2011, 02:31 PM
..Kevin Pangos and Gary Bell Jr. are a different class of player than Grant Gibbs or GJ Vilarino...

GJ was a Kentucky signee out of HS. Not sure I see any difference between Bell and GJ as far as the hype for both out of high school. GG also was well hyped, and understand he was recruited by some of the Big 10 schools before landing as a Zag.

Do agree that from all I've read, Bell has a better package than GJ had coming out of HS, especially size.

zag67
04-07-2011, 02:44 PM
So CDC, are you willing to go through a grow time for the whole year and possibly even miss the Maddness? I do not think so.

Freshmen make errors and this may cause the loss of close games. Yes they may be physically better and potentially will be there soon, but experience helps and also knowing the system means that your other players on the team will play better. When you look at this year (and some of last), how many times on defense did we have people in the wrong place? As the season went on they were playing better and better and both sides of the ball. That is what we need to carry over into this year and mold are new players into the system. And this will take time to make this happen.

Yes, I believe that Bell will be playing major minutes. Yes, I believe that Pangos will play major minutes (if he does not RS). But I think that I have heard that Kevin will not even be here until the end of the summer, meaning it will take time before he is understanding the offense and defense.

I do have to say that after next year our team is going to be hopefully be even better, but next year we need to integrate the existing and new players to make the BEST team.

NEC26
04-07-2011, 02:48 PM
GJ was a Kentucky signee out of HS. Not sure I see any difference between Bell and GJ as far as the hype for both out of high school. GG also was well hyped, and understand he was recruited by some of the Big 10 schools before landing as a Zag.

Do agree that from all I've read, Bell has a better package than GJ had coming out of HS, especially size.

Grant Gibbs was never over hyped here. Arguments for others could be made but Grant is not one of them. The most I can remember of hype about him was that he was tough. GJ was not hyped here either that I recall. Maybe he was at Kentucky but the only ones that even thought he would play his first year here were some of his friends or family that were posting here.

mgadfly
04-07-2011, 02:50 PM
GJ was a Kentucky signee out of HS. Not sure I see any difference between Bell and GJ as far as the hype for both out of high school. GG also was well hyped, and understand he was recruited by some of the Big 10 schools before landing as a Zag.

Do agree that from all I've read, Bell has a better package than GJ had coming out of HS, especially size.

I think ESPN rated GJ as an 88 out of high school and the 32nd best PG.
I think ESPN rates GBJ as a 94 out of high school and the 18th best SG.

A 94 to 88 is a fairly substantial difference in the total number of guys that get good ratings (like an 88) as opposed to someone who gets a very good rating (like 94).

But the big difference is this:

"Vilarino will need to become a better shooter to be successful at the level he was recruited to play at. He is very inconsistent as a shooter and will also need to get better finishing at the basket."

vs

"The strength of his game is shooting."

GBJ will contribute.

gamagin
04-07-2011, 02:54 PM
I would argue that we have certain posters on this board who are "hyping" some returning players who, at the present time, just aren't good enough, period. Players who are severely one dimensional. That could change, but that is reality right now. Therefore, to suggest that some promising freshmen guards MIGHT be able to come in and a make a big impact - despite their inexperience - is not "hype." It's just picking the lesser of two evils.

Also, if anyone can't understand the concept that a guy like Gary Bell Jr. is a different class of player than Grant Gibbs or GJ Vilarino, they need to do more research. There are talent scouts and high school/AAU coaches out there who I swear will buy you a Mercedes if he turns out to be a flop.

lickspittle ?

BobZag
04-07-2011, 02:57 PM
GJ was a Kentucky signee out of HS.

One of the reasons Billy Clyde Gillespie was fired: poor recruiting. His kids couldn't even beat San Diego in Rupp Arena.

CDC84
04-07-2011, 03:04 PM
GJ was a Kentucky signee out of HS. Not sure I see any difference between Bell and GJ as far as the hype for both out of high school. GG also was well hyped, and understand he was recruited by some of the Big 10 schools before landing as a Zag.

There is ZERO comparison between the two players. Zero.

Just because a player signs with Kentucky doesn't mean he is good enough to play at Kentucky. GJ verbaled to UK at a very young age when the program was led by an incompetent coach whose head was in a half empty whisky bottle half the time. Calipari wasted no time getting rid of him, which is something the GU staff foolishly didn't pay any attention to. Vilarino wasn't even ranked in the Rivals top 150. He wasn't in the scout.com top 100 or any top 100 that I am aware of.

Gary Bell Jr., meanwhile, is a top 100 player with every recruiting service that there is. Several sites have him in low 60's. He was named Mr. Basketball in the state of Washington, and played on one of the absolute best AAU teams in the country against the best high players in the nation. He might be the most accomplished guard in Gonzaga history coming out of high school (Bouldin would also be in the discussion). You talk to any high school coach in the Seattle area, and they will tell you that Gary is one of the best guards that has come through the area in a long, long time. And that area of the country has produced a load of talent in recent times.

ZagLawGrad
04-07-2011, 03:12 PM
Sorry CD, you missed my point. GJ was a flop, but nobody expected that when he arrived. You are looking at him with history having been written. I'm talking about the coming out of high school side of things.

GJ's hype out of high school pointed to all good things, so let's don't downplay that fact. Call it how you want, but GJ signing at Kentucky was a pretty big comment on him.

GBJ should be good, but all we have is the high school track record so far. You still have to see how he does on the court. Let's not get the cart ahead of the horse.

CaliforniaZaggin'
04-07-2011, 03:16 PM
I think a lot of people quietly thought Few was taking crazy pills when he offered GJ, including myself. Point taken, however. Just look at Abdul Gaddy. He may still develop into a nice D1 player, but it certainly hasn't happened yet. Sure, his sophomore year was cut short due to injury so it's hard to say how he might have done if he stayed healthy, but his freshman year left a lot of Huskies fans stratching their heads.

jazzdelmar
04-07-2011, 03:24 PM
start pangos/bell/harris/dower/sacre.....and let them marinate....

CDC84
04-07-2011, 03:46 PM
So CDC, are you willing to go through a grow time for the whole year and possibly even miss the Maddness? I do not think so.

Do you have any evidence to suggest that the returning guards are a lock to get Gonzaga back in the dance just because they are experienced? Steven Gray is gone. This team barely made the NCAA tournament with him in the lineup. The guard play last year was the worst it has been in the Few era.

All I am suggesting is that GBJ and Pangos are going to have a greater opportunity to make their immediate imprint on the program from the get go than maybe any freshmen guards Few has ever had. And it's because the returning guards, despite their experience, have limitations in terms of what they can do. Right now Meech can't shoot from a distance or consistently score. He can't pass, run an offense, and his defense went from being great to bad at times last season. Stockton can run an offense and pass, but he's limited as a scorer, inconsistent as an outside shooter, and is physically incapable of guarding high major guards on top 25 level teams. Against BYU in the NCAA tournament, the limitations of both players stood out like a sore thumb. Few's hands were tied, and the game turned into a disaster.

Few had to cover up those limitations last season, and he barely got away with it. Without Gray around, it will be impossible to cover up those limitations in 2011/12. Either Meech or Stockton need to become more well rounded basketball players, or yes, I would rather deal with some guys making freshmen mistakes who might be more well rounded.

CDC84
04-07-2011, 04:17 PM
Sorry CD, you missed my point. GJ was a flop, but nobody expected that when he arrived. You are looking at him with history having been written. I'm talking about the coming out of high school side of things.

I was against taking GJ at the time, and there were others like me. He was too close to Meech in class, and frankly, I questioned whether he was really good enough. I was very aware of his recruiting situation at Kentucky when Gillispie was there. I didn't expect him to be a flop. I will admit to that. But I also never, ever expected him to be the player that Gary will become at GU.

BTW - the recruiting rankings I referenced come from both player's senior years in high school. They don't do those rankings two years out of high school. Same with the Mr. Basketball Award. Gary was just a more accomplished player than GJ in high school - both at the time they were in high school and retrospectively.

ZagsObserver
04-07-2011, 05:02 PM
CDC - You are right on target on all accounts. My thoughts exactly, though you likely articulated them better than I could.

Zag 77
04-07-2011, 05:07 PM
Ever since that fiasco I am especially leery of overhyped recruits who are supposedly going to lead us to the promised land. Adopt a "Missouri" attitude. Show me.

spudzag
04-07-2011, 05:09 PM
Ever since that fiasco I am especially leery of overhyped recruits who are supposedly going to lead us to the promised land. Adopt a "Missouri" attitude. Show me.

An equally good approach with our current players.

kitzbuel
04-07-2011, 05:23 PM
Stupid iPad won't let me... Will ty to fix later on a real computer.
Can't do it from my droid either.

Zag79
04-08-2011, 12:26 AM
I could be wrong, but I have a really good feeling about Meech's play next year. He apparently handled the reduced minutes well, and I think the lessons learned translated into more productive minutes at the end of the year.

One thing we do know about this young man: he's fiercely competitive, and doesn't know how to back down from a challenge. The "young squires" arriving on campus better be ready to rumble.

I'm looking forward to all of the battles for precious court time next year. With the exception of Rob, positions 1-4 are open for the taking.

+1... i have a hard time seeing any recruit we get just coming in and being good enough to bench meech. i want the best player to be on the floor, and will always cheer the same regardless of who is out there. but something tells me meech will make it nearly impossible to take his spot, let alone be it a freshman.

ZagLawGrad
04-08-2011, 07:39 AM
+1... i have a hard time seeing any recruit we get just coming in and being good enough to bench meech. i want the best player to be on the floor, and will always cheer the same regardless of who is out there. but something tells me meech will make it nearly impossible to take his spot, let alone be it a freshman.

Agreed. I can see the newbies getting playing time, but Few has consistently proven over the years that last year's starter will be this year's starter. It amazes me that so many posts on GBj and Pangos continue to believe that will change. I see an almost Zero chance either begins the season as a starter or with substantial minutes. In the unlikely event it does happen, it won't be until later in the season. Meech and Carter will be the starters and will get significant playing time

In a way, it really doesn't matter. Few mixes up the playing time pretty well, so if you're on the bench at the beginnning of the game, you'll likely be in the heat of the battle pretty soon.

ZagsObserver
04-08-2011, 12:13 PM
"+1... i have a hard time seeing any recruit we get just coming in and being good enough to bench meech. i want the best player to be on the floor, and will always cheer the same regardless of who is out there. but something tells me meech will make it nearly impossible to take his spot, let alone be it a freshman."


...and I have a hard time believing that Meech will not only keep his spot, but get more than spot minutes off the bench. No disrespect to Meech, and I LOVE his committment and energy. But as a freshman Stockton pulled half the minutes from Meech towards the end of the season, and often played late in the game when it mattered most. I think he may end up above Meech in the depth chart next year. I think both Bell and Pangos will be ahead of both of them, but will likely split time between the 1 and 2 spots. So, we see things in a vastly different light...

MDABE80
04-08-2011, 12:36 PM
Once Gary and Kevin learn to play together, I'm guessing the "class" of the two will tell plenty. Carter will play lots unless he plays like he did against BYU. I hope Carter improves and continues to improve.

Those two youngins' though....it's been a long time since such decorated kids have run the show at GU.
Freshamen mistakes will happen but it's the price to pay for excellence downstream. Kinda like giving birth...it's a touch transition from mom to the outside world but it's worth the "labor".

The talent in both surpasses what we've had in quite some time. Development of that talent on the college level is the hard part. We have some good team type guards. The oldsters will show the youngsters how to play D1 play in practice and in games. As you can tell, I'm more than a bit enthused by the new kids.

Not one guard we have now has been given the acclaim of the new guards. Call me stupid but Sarbaugh will contribute plenty. Good sized, tough, good defender and he shoots better than I ever imagined. He's one of those kids that won't get beat.

ZagAddict
04-08-2011, 04:44 PM
I'm hoping that GBJ and KP get onto campus early this summer and begin playing with one another in the back court to become accustomed to one another and the other Zag players. That type of experience will be critical for both players heading into Fall Practice and determining minutes early in the season in games. I would love to see Pangos and Bell develop the kind of uncanny connection with Harris, Sacre, and Dower that Dower and Stockton showed together on the court. I believe Dower and Stockton developed their connection by working together during their redshirt season.

I think this team can be something special if they are ALL able to get together on the same page beginning early in the summer and developing a chemistry on the basketball court together. Worst case scenario is that we have Sacre, Harris, Olynk, and Pangos all over the world in the off season with national teams and not working on chemistry together with the GU team (I'm blaming any of them for taking an opportunity to represent their country... just stating my opinion with how it impacts the GU team). If this happens I see a slow start to the season just like last year, and that means missed opportunities for important out of conference wins. Those out of conference wins are going to be even more important now that BYU joins the conference.

ZagAddict
04-08-2011, 04:53 PM
Not one guard we have now has been given the acclaim of the new guards. Call me stupid but Sarbaugh will contribute plenty. Good sized, tough, good defender and he shoots better than I ever imagined. He's one of those kids that won't get beat.

Gonzaga must be like a walk-on's dream school. I can't think of another D-1 school that would have the possibility of having 3 walk-ons contributing significant minutes during a season. I still believe Sarbaugh will redshirt to continue to develop his game while there is a log jam at the guard position (Meech and Carter graduate after next season), but the 2012-2013 team could have Stockton, Hart, and Sarbaugh as important contributors. It just strikes me as amazing. I completely believe that the best players should be on the court (not the most decorated high school recruits), but I can't help but feel that we are suffering from a deficiency in recruiting if 3 players in our rotation are walk-ons (no disrespect to any of the walk-on players or the role that walk-ons provide). If Few plays with a 9 man rotation... that would be 1/3 of the rotation being comprised of walk-on players. Just some food for thought...

maynard g krebs
04-08-2011, 08:14 PM
Those doubting Bell must not have seen him. He averaged 28.5 ppg in Washington's best 4a league (Wa's highest level), the SPSL. Adam Morrison averaged 29 in the GSL, which is lesser competition. And GB did it with a really high level of efficiency in shooting percentage, and did it within a team concept and made those playing with him better.

Incredible will to win. Went on a tear through a series of loser out games to get his team to the final 8 in Tacoma. Without him, his team would have trouble making the top 8 in their league.

Can't miss. Period.

NewLookZag
04-08-2011, 10:39 PM
Those doubting Bell must not have seen him. He averaged 28.5 ppg in Washington's best 4a league (Wa's highest level), the SPSL. Adam Morrison averaged 29 in the GSL, which is lesser competition. And GB did it with a really high level of efficiency in shooting percentage, and did it within a team concept and made those playing with him better.

Incredible will to win. Went on a tear through a series of loser out games to get his team to the final 8 in Tacoma. Without him, his team would have trouble making the top 8 in their league.

Can't miss. Period.

I wouldn't say we are doubting him, but it's simply unfair to him and all the fans to expect him to be the next Michael Jordan...

Zag79
04-09-2011, 12:18 AM
...and I have a hard time believing that Meech will not only keep his spot, but get more than spot minutes off the bench. No disrespect to Meech, and I LOVE his committment and energy. But as a freshman Stockton pulled half the minutes from Meech towards the end of the season, and often played late in the game when it mattered most. I think he may end up above Meech in the depth chart next year. I think both Bell and Pangos will be ahead of both of them, but will likely split time between the 1 and 2 spots. So, we see things in a vastly different light...

sure stockton played, everyone needs a back up. the wcc is also a different level, you saw who was the better player (and by far) when it mattered most. and thats not to take anything away from him, he was a very nice surprise when we needed him the most. but that being said, stocks could barely sniff the floor in the tournament. i dont think any of the freshman can come in and take meechs spot, if they can more power to them! i dont care who logs the minutes as long as its the best player and it helps the team win. i get GBJ put up fantastic numbers and will be a great get, but that was against high schoolers. beating out a college senior who is older, stronger, faster, and never quits is going to take all GBJ has and then some. i cant wait to see it in action!

MickMick
04-09-2011, 12:26 AM
Ya know?

I was getting a little frustrated with this board and decided I was gonna "cool it" for awhile and just read instead of post.

But I just can't help it with this thread.

Let me just say that I absolutely, positively, agree 100% with everything that CDC has posted here. Everything.

Now that I think about it, I'll take a tiny bit of that back.

I think that Stockton is better than CDC gives him credit for (only because you have to consider he has one season of playing time under his belt and he has room to get better), but I think CDC is spot on and closer to reality than anyone else on this topic.

Zag79
04-09-2011, 02:24 AM
Ronald Nored 36 26.5 5.0 3.2 2.3 1.2 0.0 2.1 .392 .632 .278

Meech G'son 35 22.7 5.2 2.8 2.6 0.7 0.1 1.6 .409 .730 .259

i dont get the complaints about meech, hes very similar to a very good guard at butler. just because you arent lights out doesnt mean you cant be effective. i might be going out on a limb, but i say meech is still starting come march.

MickMick
04-09-2011, 06:48 AM
Ronald Nored 36 26.5 5.0 3.2 2.3 1.2 0.0 2.1 .392 .632 .278

Meech G'son 35 22.7 5.2 2.8 2.6 0.7 0.1 1.6 .409 .730 .259

i dont get the complaints about meech, hes very similar to a very good guard at butler. just because you arent lights out doesnt mean you cant be effective. i might be going out on a limb, but i say meech is still starting come march.

Meech gives 100% and sticks with his man like glue. He is very quick to 50/50 balls. He is excellent at denying penetration by opposing guards.

The two defensive areas that keep him from being an elite defender:

* length/wingspan
He can't change that and there are many guards lacking wingspan that play D1 ball. Still, players can shoot over the top of him from the perimeter. His wingspan naturally creates bigger windows to pass through. Not his fault.


*anticipation
A players with Meech's athletic skills should be getting 2-4 steals a game. With any type of anticipation and understanding, a player of his athletic ability should be one of the top players in the country with respect to steals. He should be intercepting passes like an all-pro NFL cover cornerback. This is the area that should compensate for length.


Meech is a very good defender and with Gray gone, possibly our best defender, but he isn't an elite defender.

Nored is a situational player that makes plays at critical junctures. Plays that have huge impact on swinging the momentum and stopping runs. He is longer than Meech, disrupts passing lanes much better than Meech, and on occasion, can come up with a critical rebound when it is needed most. Somehow, the ball ends up in his hands when it is needed most.

Butler has a two year history of scoring droughts. They can often go 5-10 minutes without scoring a field goal and many times, you can find their positive momentum swings are started with a defensive play by Nored. In that respect, he is a game changer. It is the timing of his plays that bring him so much attention. In the biggest games, against elite players, he comes up big at critical times. Really, that can be said of almost every player on the Butler team.

NEC26
04-09-2011, 08:20 AM
sure stockton played, everyone needs a back up. the wcc is also a different level, you saw who was the better player (and by far) when it mattered most. and thats not to take anything away from him, he was a very nice surprise when we needed him the most. but that being said, stocks could barely sniff the floor in the tournament. i dont think any of the freshman can come in and take meechs spot, if they can more power to them! i dont care who logs the minutes as long as its the best player and it helps the team win. i get GBJ put up fantastic numbers and will be a great get, but that was against high schoolers. beating out a college senior who is older, stronger, faster, and never quits is going to take all GBJ has and then some. i cant wait to see it in action!

Stockton wasn't just giving Meech a blow off the bench he was getting as many or more minutes as Meech was. You are right though Stockton as a freshman walk on wasn't ready to compete in the tourney and its this very fact(losing time to a walk on freshman) that shows Meech could very easily be losing his minutes to a couple of much more physically capable and highly regarded guards.
I know some on here don't want to dwell in reality or acknowledge this team has a glaring weakness cause we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but if Meech wants to keep his starting spot he is going to have to really improve over the summer and quite frankly some of what he lacks I'm not sure he can learn( ability to run the team, pass, so on) it seems some have it and some don't.
Maybe he does start at the beginning of this year but I'm betting Pangos and/or Bell will be seeing a lot of minutes next year.

Goshzagit
04-09-2011, 09:11 AM
Ronald Nored 36 26.5 5.0 3.2 2.3 1.2 0.0 2.1 .392 .632 .278

Meech G'son 35 22.7 5.2 2.8 2.6 0.7 0.1 1.6 .409 .730 .259

i dont get the complaints about meech, hes very similar to a very good guard at butler. just because you arent lights out doesnt mean you cant be effective. i might be going out on a limb, but i say meech is still starting come march.

You kind of backed yourself into a corner with this comparison --

I understand your comparison and many have posted similiar analysis before, yet you do realize Nored lost his starting job half-way through the season, which coincidently enough was the moment Butler went on their improbable winning streak.

If anything, it tells us Coach Stevens recognized that starting guards with little to no shooting ability or respect from defenses is a liability. Now, Nored provided valuable minutes off the bench as a spark on defense and transition. There is no doubt Meech is a huge asset to this team, just as Nored is to Butler, but he may be better served in a reserve-type role(comparable to his Freshman season). He doesn't come in to run/manage the half-court offense or take threes, but solely to lead our transition, full-court press, defensive presence, change of pace, etc.

The moment Nored was benched mid-way through his Junior season and they moved Howard to a more inside-outside role, they went on a tear with Mack/Vanzant/other spot-up shooter manning the guard positions. Even if Meech receives 20+ mins is just fine, b/c what these Zags need are better starts with their starters i.e. the first 5-7 mins of 1st half and especially the 2nd half. Why do you think we couldn't score much to start games or from half-time?

Was it Coaching or our starting PG failing to get everyone involved early and establish tempo and tone of the game. Our starters(Meech) always started the games, yet the moment Stockton came in, our offense becamse significantly more efficient/effective/smooth. It makes a difference, just see Butler as the prime example of changing it up, because it does make a difference who starts(many on this board won't admit it), but ever notice how Butler seems to win ALL their games by 5 pts our less? During their winning streak and in the tournament, their starts to both halves made all the difference. When Nored started at PG, they got off to horrific starts b/c Nored, as you have pointed out many a time, is a Meech clone. Both have huge hearts, great defenders, super quick, consumate attributes, but their shooting and sub-par vision causes our respective offenses to play 4 on 5 on offense.

Some may point to the St John's game as an example of Meech receiving majority of minutes over other options such as Stockton. Well, that is where Meech comes in handy. He has the ball-handling, athleticism, speed to break full-court presses, traps, and helter skelter defenses. SJU wasn't a traditional, nor smart type of defense. Half-court skills aren't needed vs playground basketball, only transitional skills. Besides, Meech played rather poorly in terms of statistics, but was able to break the press by himself, which helped us tremendously.

This post is not intended to hate on Meech, but just stating that the Nored to Butler, Meech to Gonzaga comparisons are getting tiring and just look at how Butler handled their version of Meech. He was benched, maintained a significant role, and it was for the betterment of Butler. Case closed.

PS-> The old cliche, "it doesn't matter who starts the game, but who finishes it" is the most ludicrous comment especially in a two-half basketball game as the starters generally play the majority of the minutes in the beginning of each half. Our slow, poor starts to each half was an achilles heel this season and it mattered BIG-time. We finally started to consistent win games the shorter Meech's leash got down the stretch and our rotation overall. Hopefully, Coach Few & Co. learned this lesson going forward and I'm sure they did...

gamagin
04-09-2011, 09:27 AM
if all these incoming freshman can beat out the starters, god bless them and hooray for recruiting and for the Zags and their future.

I am all for the best man getting the spots, the p.t. and whatever else makes this team better and better.

Meantime, I think some of you are pretty much caught up in this . . . and enjoying it immensely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM9jhGiIAFM

NEC26
04-09-2011, 09:52 AM
if all these incoming freshman can beat out the starters, god bless them and hooray for recruiting and for the Zags and their future.

I am all for the best man getting the spots, the p.t. and whatever else makes this team better and better.

Meantime, I think some of you are pretty much caught up in this . . . and enjoying it immensely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM9jhGiIAFM

Ahh yes the self rightous Gamagin always there to chastise anyone he doesn't agree with. What would we do without your condescending posts proclaiming any discussion that you don't like as garbage and not to be discussed.

gamagin
04-09-2011, 10:02 AM
What would we do without your condescending posts proclaiming any discussion that you don't like as garbage and not to be discussed.

your doing all you can. riveting, too.

simple. get rid of all the current guards, ignore the bigs and put in a group of 18 year olds and then we get to the FF. what about Few ? doesn't he belongs under this bus you all have built out of tinfoil & string ?

OK now. everybody hands into the middle. READDDEEEEEE Breathe deeply !

ZagsObserver
04-09-2011, 10:07 AM
"You kind of backed yourself into a corner with this comparison --

I understand your comparison and many have posted similiar analysis before, yet you do realize Nored lost his starting job half-way through the season, which coincidently enough was the moment Butler went on their improbable winning streak.

If anything, it tells us Coach Stevens recognized that starting guards with little to no shooting ability or respect from defenses is a liability."


Very well said, GoshZagit

NEC26
04-09-2011, 10:10 AM
your doing all you can. riveting, too.

simple. get rid of all the current guards, ignore the bigs and put in a group of 18 year olds and then we get to the FF. what about Few ? doesn't he belongs under this bus you all have built out of tinfoil & string ?

OK now. everybody hands into the middle. READDDEEEEEE Breathe deeply !

As usual more of your strawman diatribe attributing ridiculous ideas to people who have never proposed or said any such silly things.
All because they have the audacity to recognize we have a glaring weakness at point guard and maybe just maybe our two very highly regarded freshman guards might just get some significant playing time or even start.
I know I know how dare we, I'm sure you'll be back with more of your hogwash putting others down and proclaiming anything they say as garbage (as per usual you did it pretty much all year).

jazzdelmar
04-09-2011, 10:18 AM
the choices between nored and vanzant and between meech and stockton are not comparable....nored and vanzant are two time FF experienced guards with high D1 talent....vanzant, for example, is better than or as good as anyone on gu's roster last year....neither meech nor stockton would never see the floor for butler.

gamagin
04-09-2011, 10:31 AM
As usual more of your strawman diatribe attributing ridiculous ideas to people who have never proposed or said any such silly things.
All because they have the audacity to recognize we have a glaring weakness at point guard and maybe just maybe our two very highly regarded freshman guards might just get some significant playing time or even start.
I know I know how dare we, I'm sure you'll be back with more of your hogwash putting others down and proclaiming anything they say as garbage (as per usual you did it pretty much all year).

campfire and cause a little smoke. your feelings seem highly tuned to yourself. It's not about you, much as you seem to think it is as you jump up and down over a very unserious subject being noodled by those of us with zero ability to actually effect change.

maybe you could take a moment, put down the little drum, and realize there are just as many guards on GU right now who fully intend to keep their jobs.

and the odds are pretty good, in reality and historically, that they will. No matter what is determined on this thread. Unless you and others are the actual coaches, I'm not sure your imagining otherwise should be taken seriously.

Or, as I said in the post that set you to huffing and puffing, if the current players get legitimately beat out when practice begins and the season gets underway, we can all join hands and cheer on the Zags, perhaps even forgetting how obsessive we have become over essentially one guard, or two, when it was the whole team that lost to BYU, and the others.

NEC26
04-09-2011, 10:47 AM
campfire and cause a little smoke. your feelings seem highly tuned to yourself. It's not about you, much as you seem to think it is as you jump up and down over a very unserious subject being noodled by those of us with zero ability to actually effect change.

maybe you could take a moment, put down the little drum, and realize there are just as many guards on GU right now who fully intend to keep their jobs.

and the odds are pretty good, in reality and historically, that they will. No matter what is determined on this thread. Unless you and others are the actual coaches, I'm not sure your imagining otherwise should be taken seriously.

Or, as I said in the post that set you to huffing and puffing, if the current players get legitimately beat out when practice begins and the season gets underway, we can all join hands and cheer on the Zags, perhaps even forgetting how obsessive we have become over essentially one guard, or two, when it was the whole team that lost to BYU, and the others.

maybe you could take a moment, put down the little drum.

Pretty much my point here. You have been chastising and quite frankly ripping into and in a few posts berating posters this past year for talking about a subject you don't like being discussed
My response wasn't about my post in this thread but your general holier than though attitude you always seem to have.

ZagsObserver
04-09-2011, 11:10 AM
"maybe you could take a moment, put down the little drum, and realize there are just as many guards on GU right now who fully intend to keep their jobs.

and the odds are pretty good, in reality and historically, that they will."



Oh, Gamagin - although you would like to think so, the chances are NOT good that a current pg will win out a spot over the likes of Bell or Pangos. Just aint gonna happen, and even Tommy said so. I'll meet you back here early next year when this "prediction" proves to be true, and at that point you'll rationalize and say, "I just said there was a good chance, it wasn't a prediction." Ok, you can pick up the pipe again.

thespywhozaggedme
04-09-2011, 11:21 AM
Didn't UConn start 3 freshmen in the championship game? Just sayin'

JPtheBeasta
04-09-2011, 11:21 AM
Who was the last freshman guard to start at GU? Just curious...

Stockton was able to see a lot of minutes because he was a redshirt freshman and had the benefit of practicing the offense for one year. It will be quite a testament to GBJ or Pangos if they start, because they will only have a summer to transition to the college game. I think it will be much easier to crack the lineup at the SG/SF spot than the PG for this reason. I could see GBJ starting but being asked to do what the Hoff and Kong were asked to do- find the open corner and bomb from three. Where it gets good is that GBJ has the ability to drive to the basket (and it should be pretty easy to get to the basket when his guy is running out at him to stop the 3).

That said, both Pangos and GBJ seem very offensively gifted, but so is Sam Dower, and it took him months to crack the lineup because of his defensive and rebounding shortcomings. Defensively, we were at our worst when the team defense broke down (missed assignments, helping off the wrong guy, being in the wrong spot in the zone). The mantra around here has been defense, defense, defense. I think this was actually one of the big reasons Meech kept getting the starts last year and to start the half- to set the tone on defense early. I have a feeling that the lineup that starts games next year will be the ones Few is most comfortable with on the defensive side of things. I think we should be rooting for the same thing. Will Pangos, Bell, Dranginis, and Spangler get it early on defense? That will, IMO, be the thing to watch for.

JPtheBeasta
04-09-2011, 11:29 AM
the chances are NOT good that a current pg will win out a spot over the likes of Bell or Pangos. Just aint gonna happen, and even Tommy said so.

??? I definitely missed that one. If Tommy said or intimated that Bell and Pangos are going to start, that is huge.

NEC26
04-09-2011, 11:29 AM
Who was the last freshman guard to start at GU? Just curious...

Stockton was able to see a lot of minutes because he was a redshirt freshman and had the benefit of practicing the offense for one year. It will be quite a testament to GBJ or Pangos if they start, because they will only have a summer to transition to the college game. I think it will be much easier to crack the lineup at the SG/SF spot than the PG for this reason. I could see GBJ starting but being asked to do what the Hoff and Kong were asked to do- find the open corner and bomb from three. Where it gets good is that GBJ has the ability to drive to the basket (and it should be pretty easy to get to the basket when his guy is running out at him to stop the 3).

That said, both Pangos and GBJ seem very offensively gifted, but so is Sam Dower, and it took him months to crack the lineup because of his defensive and rebounding shortcomings. Defensively, we were at our worst when the team defense broke down (missed assignments, helping off the wrong guy, being in the wrong spot in the zone). The mantra around here has been defense, defense, defense. I think this was actually one of the big reasons Meech kept getting the starts last year and to start the half- to set the tone on defense early. I have a feeling that the lineup that starts games next year will be the ones Few is most comfortable with on the defensive side of things. I think we should be rooting for the same thing. Will Pangos, Bell, Dranginis, and Spangler get it early on defense? That will, IMO, be the thing to watch for.

Blake Stepp and Matt Bouldin come to mind.

JPtheBeasta
04-09-2011, 11:43 AM
Blake Stepp and Matt Bouldin come to mind.

Thanks. What positions did they start at as freshman? "Who was the last freshman to start at PG?" might be a better question. I think I remember Raivio played a lot of minutes at SG before he took the reins full time at the point. My recollection is that all those guys had incumbant PGs that were entrenched and were finding minutes at SG.

ZagsObserver
04-09-2011, 11:47 AM
Here you go JP - the article is about a month old:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/highschool/article/949515--high-school-standout-has-big-hoop-dreams

“He thinks the game like a coach,” says Lloyd, who expects Pangos to start for the Bulldogs as a freshman. “He has a great skill level in shooting, handling and passing the ball.”

NEC26
04-09-2011, 11:51 AM
Thanks. What positions did they start at as freshman? "Who was the last freshman to start at PG?" might be a better question. I think I remember Raivio played a lot of minutes at SG before he took the reins full time at the point. My recollection is that all those guys had incumbant PGs that were entrenched and were finding minutes at SG.

The idea that players can't come in as freshman and play point guard is overstated. There are plenty of examples of it every year in College Ball not to mention as has been stated many times Few loves to employ two guards that are effectively combo guards in his system anyway.
I have never thought that Meeches minutes will disappear next year but I do see Pangos and Bell taking a large share of minutes and I am hoping Pangos is good enough to step in and win that starting job because Meech is more suited as a role player defensive guy than a starter.

JPtheBeasta
04-09-2011, 12:00 PM
Here you go JP - the article is about a month old:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/highschool/article/949515--high-school-standout-has-big-hoop-dreams

“He thinks the game like a coach,” says Lloyd, who expects Pangos to start for the Bulldogs as a freshman. “He has a great skill level in shooting, handling and passing the ball.”

Thanks for the link. The previous quote carries more weight, at this time, than all of the opinions of us on the board, IMO. I will defer to Coach Lloyd until further notice. I'm also less worried about the "hype" knowing such high accolades are coming from someone within the program.

JPtheBeasta
04-09-2011, 12:15 PM
The idea that players can't come in as freshman and play point guard is overstated. There are plenty of examples of it every year in College Ball not to mention as has been stated many times Few loves to employ two guards that are effectively combo guards in his system anyway.
I have never thought that Meeches minutes will disappear next year but I do see Pangos and Bell taking a large share of minutes and I am hoping Pangos is good enough to step in and win that starting job because Meech is more suited as a role player defensive guy than a starter.

I agree that it can be overstated at times, but GU doesn't quite recruit the Roses and Irvings of the world who are able to overcome the lack of experience with elite athleticism and skill. I agree with your opinions on Meech being more suited to being a role player, but Few tends to favor seniority. If Pangos is good enough to start that really says a lot and I will be just fine with that- excited, actually, because that would be a testament to what kind of player Pangos is.

Is it possible that Stockton is the odd man out in all of this, if Pangos and Bell contribute major minutes next year?

jazzdelmar
04-09-2011, 12:25 PM
why are so many posters dead set against the possibility a freshman will start at pg and even sg? isnt that a development we should all fervently wish for, given the generally poor play at those positions the last few years? thats not throwing any incumbent under the bus, its just hoping we get a whole lot better. if indeed meech/goodson/carter are getting the preponderance of minutes next year, i daresay that the program will be in deep do-do......

moreover, i have always been puzzled at how meech is so strongly defended here, particularly when compared with any other player. there have been threads here lambasting rob, gray, kelly, arop and even harris and for the most part they go unchallenged or lightly debated. with meech any discordant note gets pilloried by some of his supporters (you know who you are). why is that? is it because he is a little guy in a big mans sport, because he is undertalented but overhearted, that sweet sixteen bucket, he seems like a great teammate, etc. rational thoughts appreciated.

NEC26
04-09-2011, 12:35 PM
I agree that it can be overstated at times, but GU doesn't quite recruit the Roses and Irvings of the world who are able to overcome the lack of experience with elite athleticism and skill. I agree with your opinions on Meech being more suited to being a role player, but Few tends to favor seniority. If Pangos is good enough to start that really says a lot and I will be just fine with that- excited, actually, because that would be a testament to what kind of player Pangos is.

Is it possible that Stockton is the odd man out in all of this, if Pangos and Bell contribute major minutes next year?

I think next year Stockton might not be seeing many minutes but then again most didn't see him getting any this year either so its hard to count him out. It will be interesting to see how much he can improve his shot and defense.

JPtheBeasta
04-09-2011, 12:55 PM
why is that? is it because he is a little guy in a big mans sport, because he is undertalented but overhearted, that sweet sixteen bucket, he seems like a great teammate, etc. rational thoughts appreciated.

I think that pretty much sums it up from the sentimentality side of things. I think he is a good defender, but the ball-screen pretty much neutralizes that aspect of his game. He was able to beat the press by himself on occasion with his speed. I really like Meech, for the sentimental reasons, but I wish he was either a better scorer or better at facilitating things on offense.

I'm actually a big fan of Pangos/Bell/Dranginis/ early and often- It would be great to have a) players good enough to unseat the encumbants and b) a nucleus play together for 3-4 years. We could have a once-in-a-decade team in a few years if that happens.

zagfan1
04-09-2011, 01:20 PM
The key to Gonzaga's success will be to have multiple guards rather than just "one" go to guard. Then it will be up to good coaching that puts out the best team on the floor to score. Steven Gray's loss won't impact the team next year as much as Bouldin's loss. Gray was flat out inconsistent at times and Few can take some heat for keeping him longer in the game than his performance warranted in times like the BYU game. Dower will also be huge next year and if I were Few I would make sure he gets plenty of minutes because he has proven to be an invaluable asset.

bballbeachbum
04-09-2011, 01:45 PM
whoever earns the minutes will earn them. of course that's what's best for the team, whoever earns them.

is that what this thread is supposed to be about?

as for Meech, if those who bash him aggressively--or worse passive aggressively--could have uttered praises in his direction when he earned them throughtout the year, like after the St. John's game for example, many of us wouldn't be compelled to illuminate his contributions to those of you who post as if blind to them (you know who you are). the perfect opportunity to sack up and show him some respect, by stepping forward with any kind of "good game Meech" post, was after that St John's game. some took that opportunity, who hadn't all year long, and sincere cheers to them.

Personally, I'm looking forward to the new guys getting grooved in and contributing as soon as they can, and to Meech doing what he does even better than before (ask Hardy its value, Jimmer even :) )...and all of these things happening all together, all at once. I'm looking forward to ALL contributing. That's like a revolutionary thought on this board seems to me. same thing happened all last season, posters pitting Stocks and Meech against each other, and bashing one to make their point about the other. anyway, that turned out to be dead wrong...needed them both, needed all. we will again.

GO ZAGS!!!

NewLookZag
04-09-2011, 02:42 PM
Thanks. What positions did they start at as freshman? "Who was the last freshman to start at PG?" might be a better question. I think I remember Raivio played a lot of minutes at SG before he took the reins full time at the point. My recollection is that all those guys had incumbant PGs that were entrenched and were finding minutes at SG.

Keep this in mind, though.

While those guys didn't come in and start at PG right away, the DID start....

And why haven't we seen a freshman PG start for us? When was the last time we had serious question marks at PG to start a season? I can't remember that far. Hall, Santangelo, Dickau, Raivio, Pargo..... It's not like the incoming freshman have ever had a chance to win a job. This year, instead of competing against some of the best PGs in GU history, they compete against themselves and Demetri Goodson and David Stockton. No offense to Meech and Stockton, but that's just the bottom line. This year, there is a job open at PG if someone wants to take it. Hasn't been the case at "Guard U" for a long time.

ZagLawGrad
04-09-2011, 09:40 PM
... This year, there is a job open at PG if someone wants to take it. ...

Not likely.

There may be some playing time up for grabs, but Meech is your "starting" PG. If you don't understand that, then you have not been paying attenton to how Coach Few conducts business.

ZagLawGrad
04-09-2011, 09:55 PM
why are so many posters dead set against the possibility a freshman will start at pg and even sg? isnt that a development we should all fervently wish for, given the generally poor play at those positions the last few years? thats not throwing any incumbent under the bus, its just hoping we get a whole lot better. if indeed meech/goodson/carter are getting the preponderance of minutes next year, i daresay that the program will be in deep do-do......

moreover, i have always been puzzled at how meech is so strongly defended here, particularly when compared with any other player. there have been threads here lambasting rob, gray, kelly, arop and even harris and for the most part they go unchallenged or lightly debated. with meech any discordant note gets pilloried by some of his supporters (you know who you are). why is that? is it because he is a little guy in a big mans sport, because he is undertalented but overhearted, that sweet sixteen bucket, he seems like a great teammate, etc. rational thoughts appreciated.

Few will start Meech and then allocate playing time as he sees fit. The odds that Few will start a Frosh in lieu of his starting PG for the past 2 years are slim. Meech may ride the pine after the tip, but he will start. For better or worse, THAT is how Few runs the program.

MickMick
04-09-2011, 11:23 PM
I'm not going to get caught up in terminology here.


When people think of a starter, they typically think of a player that will be the most significant contributer at the position. It is easier to type starter than to type "will assume the most significant role" over and over.

So I'm looking for suggestions for a short hand term that properly defines what we all mean. If not, I'll just use the term "starter". Regardless, I hope I don't have to bookmark the post and use it in the "definitions" section of my signature.

To me, it is a nuisance that we must hash out a term that describes a player that will sit for a couple of token minutes and then assume his spot for the majority game. But it now appears that we must take it to that level.

ZagsObserver
04-10-2011, 01:43 AM
"Not likely.

There may be some playing time up for grabs, but Meech is your "starting" PG. If you don't understand that, then you have not been paying attenton to how Coach Few conducts business.


I like how you say this so matter-of-facty, when the assistant coach has stated that he "expects Pangos to start." Of cousre, you know more than Tommy, though, right?

You're going to look really stupid when Meech doesn't start...

ZagDaddy
04-10-2011, 06:47 AM
I've never understood the big to-do over who starts. More important in my mind is total minutes and most importantly who gets called upon to FINISH a close game. I'd want to be that guy.

ZagLawGrad
04-10-2011, 09:26 AM
....I like how you say this so matter-of-facty, when the assistant coach has stated that he "expects Pangos to start." Of cousre, you know more than Tommy, though, right?

You're going to look really stupid when Meech doesn't start...

Perhaps, much like I will look stupid for having advocated that monkeys won't ever fly, either.

Quoting some obscure high school publication which doesn't actually "quote" TL saying those words carries no weight for me. Hate to break this news to you, but people get attributed for saying things in the press that just wasn't quite reflective of what they said.

From last night's Nike Summit, Pangos looked pretty much like what one would expect from a Frosh---good potential. He didn't look like a starter on a program that has experienced PGs ahead of him.

I still see Pangos being a Redshirt candidate, much like Dower. An extra year of eligibiltiy for him could be a very good thing for the Zags with their current inventory of guards. As I'm sure you know, redshirting has been the topic of some debate, and was an option Pangos was "quoted" on just a few months ago.
http://www.yorkregion.com/sports/local/article/885182--gonzaga-right-fit-for-pangos (admittedly a bit obscure publication)

But, at the end of the day, only time will tell.

Hoopaholic
04-10-2011, 09:29 AM
whole bunch of hoooppplaaa over NOTHING

who starts, who plays, who finshes doesnt matter if we DONT WIN

Winning is the name of the game and if each of the 12 players dont have that in their collective minds they shouldnt see a SINGLE minute of playing time.

If player sees 1 minute of 39 minutes they must be ready to contribute to their piece of the puzzle and each of the kids have a select skill set to contribute to the overall picture of the team=winning

NewLookZag
04-10-2011, 11:36 AM
Not likely.

There may be some playing time up for grabs, but Meech is your "starting" PG. If you don't understand that, then you have not been paying attenton to how Coach Few conducts business.

Riiiight, because "starting" PG means the one who gets all the minutes, right? Is that why Meech and Stocks shared most of the time during the 2nd half of the season? I don't care who starts. I care who finishes and plays the most minutes. You cannot pretend to tell me that those minutes at PG are set in stone. They aren't. The Job is oepn.

And if you would have read my post thoroughly, you would have realized why I believe Few has "conducted his business" over the years. He has never had a lack of talent at the PG spot before... There was no reason to give the job to a younger player. The veteran was always the best option. Pretty simple if you ask me. Hall, Santangelo, Dickau, Stepp, Raivio, Pargo.... Where would he have been able to bench one for a younger player? Never. He's had it easy until now.

ZagLawGrad
04-10-2011, 08:34 PM
Riiiight, because "starting" PG means the one who gets all the minutes, right? Is that why Meech and Stocks shared most of the time during the 2nd half of the season? I don't care who starts. I care who finishes and plays the most minutes. You cannot pretend to tell me that those minutes at PG are set in stone. They aren't. The Job is oepn.

And if you would have read my post thoroughly, you would have realized why I believe Few has "conducted his business" over the years. He has never had a lack of talent at the PG spot before... There was no reason to give the job to a younger player. The veteran was always the best option. Pretty simple if you ask me. Hall, Santangelo, Dickau, Stepp, Raivio, Pargo.... Where would he have been able to bench one for a younger player? Never. He's had it easy until now.

I read your posts, don't really understand your point.

If you are suggesting that Few has a hard decision about who to start because a couple of good recruits with no college basketball experence are showing up in October, then again you don't understand Few's philosophy.

Meech-----Few's starter for 2 years----will be the starter. That means the guy who gets introduced as the starter, and is on the court for the tip off. After that point, playing time will depend on who is playing well---Meech, Stockton, Pangos (if not redshirting), Carter, GBj, who knows today?

But there is no hard decision for Few---Meech is the starter absent some amazing play by someone else.

NewLookZag
04-10-2011, 11:38 PM
I read your posts, don't really understand your point.

If you are suggesting that Few has a hard decision about who to start because a couple of good recruits with no college basketball experence are showing up in October, then again you don't understand Few's philosophy.

Meech-----Few's starter for 2 years----will be the starter. That means the guy who gets introduced as the starter, and is on the court for the tip off. After that point, playing time will depend on who is playing well---Meech, Stockton, Pangos (if not redshirting), Carter, GBj, who knows today?

But there is no hard decision for Few---Meech is the starter absent some amazing play by someone else.

I don't think you're getting it.

First off, I'm not saying Meech won't start. I'm sure he will. But who cares? He likely WONT get the most minutes there. Stockton was beating him out for minutes last year for crying out loud.

My point is, you keep talking like Meech will start simply because of Few's past track record... My point is, that track record isn't because Few always starts the veterans over the freshman, it's that he has had tremendous returning guards that he didn't have to worry about losing their jobs. This year, there isn't that ONE guy that we all know is "the guy." So yeah, I'd say the PG spot is WIDE OPEN, despite who starts. Never in Fews tenure has the PG spot been up for grabs like it is now.

ZagsObserver
04-11-2011, 12:23 AM
"I read your posts, don't really understand your point.

If you are suggesting that Few has a hard decision about who to start because a couple of good recruits with no college basketball experence are showing up in October, then again you don't understand Few's philosophy.

Meech-----Few's starter for 2 years----will be the starter. That means the guy who gets introduced as the starter, and is on the court for the tip off. After that point, playing time will depend on who is playing well---Meech, Stockton, Pangos (if not redshirting), Carter, GBj, who knows today?

But there is no hard decision for Few---Meech is the starter absent some amazing play by someone else."


Because you are saying this so matter-of-factly, I am going to be forced to save this thread and repost it when you are WRONG. So, next Fall expect to see this thread come around again. I hate doing this kind of thing, but you are so dead set, stubborn and wrong on this one. Meech will not start. Mark my words. I'm not entirely sure he would start above Stockton on the depth charts.

Bogozags
04-11-2011, 08:52 AM
"I read your posts, don't really understand your point.

If you are suggesting that Few has a hard decision about who to start because a couple of good recruits with no college basketball experence are showing up in October, then again you don't understand Few's philosophy.

Meech-----Few's starter for 2 years----will be the starter. That means the guy who gets introduced as the starter, and is on the court for the tip off. After that point, playing time will depend on who is playing well---Meech, Stockton, Pangos (if not redshirting), Carter, GBj, who knows today?

But there is no hard decision for Few---Meech is the starter absent some amazing play by someone else."


Because you are saying this so matter-of-factly, I am going to be forced to save this thread and repost it when you are WRONG. So, next Fall expect to see this thread come around again. I hate doing this kind of thing, but you are so dead set, stubborn and wrong on this one. Meech will not start. Mark my words. I'm not entirely sure he would start above Stockton on the depth charts.


I am a betting man. If Vegas/Reno's Sports Books carried the bet "The starting PG at GU for the 2011 season will be Meech!" I would be content to place a large sum of money on Meech to start - unless he is hurt or involved in robbing the Federal Treasury or something similar...Coach Few has a track record of not starting freshman unless they are incredible. AD, who was one of the most skilled players to come to GU didn't start as a freshman.

If Meech didn't start the season at PG then I'd lose my bet; however, I would be really surprised if a freshman, with no experience would jump over him. I see only Stockton as a very slim possibility but he would need to improve his game on the defensive side of the ball, where he was a liability at times.

I feel most who stated Meech will start believe his experience, strength and knowledge of the game will place him #1 on the depth chart at the beginning of the season and that the position is his to lose.

northsidezagfan
04-11-2011, 09:47 AM
I am a betting man. If Vegas/Reno's Sports Books carried the bet "The starting PG at GU for the 2011 season will be Meech!" I would be content to place a large sum of money on Meech to start - unless he is hurt or involved in robbing the Federal Treasury or something similar...Coach Few has a track record of not starting freshman unless they are incredible. AD, who was one of the most skilled players to come to GU didn't start as a freshman.

If Meech didn't start the season at PG then I'd lose my bet; however, I would be really surprised if a freshman, with no experience would jump over him. I see only Stockton as a very slim possibility but he would need to improve his game on the defensive side of the ball, where he was a liability at times.

I feel most who stated Meech will start believe his experience, strength and knowledge of the game will place him #1 on the depth chart at the beginning of the season and that the position is his to lose.

+1 No way Meech doesn't start next year. May not play 35 minutes a game or even the majority of the PG minutes but he will be the starter.

ZagLawGrad
04-11-2011, 11:28 AM
[/QUOTE} Because you are saying this so matter-of-factly, I am going to be forced to save this thread and repost it when you are WRONG. So, next Fall expect to see this thread come around again. I hate doing this kind of thing, but you are so dead set, stubborn and wrong on this one. Meech will not start. Mark my words. I'm not entirely sure he would start above Stockton on the depth charts.[/QUOTE]

I'll be cheerily waiting for the repost. Could you throw in a new Ranger Rover if Meech just happens to start? :)

NewLookZag
04-11-2011, 11:29 AM
I am a betting man. If Vegas/Reno's Sports Books carried the bet "The starting PG at GU for the 2011 season will be Meech!" I would be content to place a large sum of money on Meech to start - unless he is hurt or involved in robbing the Federal Treasury or something similar...Coach Few has a track record of not starting freshman unless they are incredible. AD, who was one of the most skilled players to come to GU didn't start as a freshman.

If Meech didn't start the season at PG then I'd lose my bet; however, I would be really surprised if a freshman, with no experience would jump over him. I see only Stockton as a very slim possibility but he would need to improve his game on the defensive side of the ball, where he was a liability at times.

I feel most who stated Meech will start believe his experience, strength and knowledge of the game will place him #1 on the depth chart at the beginning of the season and that the position is his to lose.

It has nothing to do with Few not wanting to start Freshmen. The freshmen he has started recently, Bouldin, Daye, Harris started because there was a spot open, and they were good enough to start. There is no rule "Few wont start Freshman." How often does a freshman come in, and look better than the veteran who starts at his position? Rarely. The point is, while Meech will probably start, the PG position is up for grabs. There is no veteran loyalty. We've just rarely been in a position where the new guy was better than the veteran. That might not even turn out to be the case, but the argument that "Few doesn't start Freshman" is bogus. He'll give the job to the best player. Bell and Pangos will get their chance to compete for it.

cjm720
04-11-2011, 12:24 PM
NewLook must be a defense attorney...arguing for the sake of arguing. The you just refuted said "Few has a track record of not starting freshman..." and you turn it around to say that "Few won't start Freshman."

We all know what you're saying, and majority agree, that Meech will likely start but not see the lion's share of minutes.

zag67
04-11-2011, 12:57 PM
I also think that Meech will be the starter at the beginning of the year (and maybe all year). And if I am wrong, I think that the person who beats him will really be good at both ends. If as the year goes on things go South, then something might change (Stockton, Pangos, ???). Also remember there is an open place at the 2/3 for someone like GB to also become a starter (but not PG).

I have also heard so many times this year about how we did not play good enough defense to make a run. So whoever is in the mix for the most playing time, I think will be those that show they are performing the best "TEAM" defense (as well as performing at the offensive end). Not necessarily on their individual but also in the help and in the zone (when used).

JPtheBeasta
04-11-2011, 01:02 PM
I posted this earlier, but nobody responded, so I may be barking up the wrong tree again...
The premise is this: A lot of people on the board are complaining that defense is our #1 liability. Meech will likely be our best on ball defender next year. Pangos appears to be so-so in this regard and will be a freshman learning all of the defensive sets and rotations. Should Pangos, if it is granted presuppositionally that he is a better offensive PG, start in place of Meech? In other words, should defense or offense be valued higher when picking a starter at PG?

Edit: Sorry Zag67, you are quicker on the draw than me.

Bogozags
04-11-2011, 03:30 PM
It has nothing to do with Few not wanting to start Freshmen. The freshmen he has started recently, Bouldin, Daye, Harris started because there was a spot open, and they were good enough to start. There is no rule "Few wont start Freshman." How often does a freshman come in, and look better than the veteran who starts at his position? Rarely. The point is, while Meech will probably start, the PG position is up for grabs. There is no veteran loyalty. We've just rarely been in a position where the new guy was better than the veteran. That might not even turn out to be the case, but the argument that "Few doesn't start Freshman" is bogus. He'll give the job to the best player. Bell and Pangos will get their chance to compete for it.

I made my point...the starter will be Meech...now, if by chance Stockton or Pangos beats Meech out for the starter role, then it is because they are incredible...I'm betting Stockton won't make the transition with regards to his defense and lateral quickness this summer but maybe Pangos but IMO really think he will red-shirt...Bell wants to play the two more than the PG so maybe we go with combo guards...by the way, Track Records are track records for a reason...I am still going with Meech to start and play 17-22 minutes per game.

ZagsObserver
04-11-2011, 05:48 PM
"I made my point...the starter will be Meech...now, if by chance Stockton or Pangos beats Meech out for the starter role, then it is because they are incredible..."


No, it will because GU was deficient at pg, and the new guys had pg skills (which we lacked this year).

JPtheBeasta
04-11-2011, 06:16 PM
...Bell wants to play the two more than the PG so maybe we go with combo guards...

Was this mentioned somewhere? I know that's where I want him to play, but the last I heard he wants to play with the ball in his hands, which many took as an expectation to play PG. It is a well established point that you don't have to be the "PG" to be the PG in this system, so it's somewhat irrelevant, but I was curious about the source of the above information.

NewLookZag
04-11-2011, 06:25 PM
NewLook must be a defense attorney...arguing for the sake of arguing. The you just refuted said "Few has a track record of not starting freshman..." and you turn it around to say that "Few won't start Freshman."

We all know what you're saying, and majority agree, that Meech will likely start but not see the lion's share of minutes.

Or because I'm trying to make the point that Few has nothing against starting freshman, and everything to do with the talent he has always had returning. I'm just trying to make that point, not argue.

"Few doesn't start Freshmen." False. Few hasn't HAD TO THINK ABOUT starting freshmen very often. Sorry for having an opinion. I'll stop.

bballbeachbum
04-11-2011, 07:05 PM
. Sorry for having an opinion. I'll stop.

stop, don't stop. noodle, don't noodle. who cares? but please quit playing the victim with your fake apology...weak sauce, and speaking only for myself, I do not accept.

re. GU basketball, who breaks the press, a St John's effective press? who guards the other teams wicked pg threat?

both are Task 1 point guard needs, and direct ways to win games, and more to the point, games in March...you get that, right? of course you do. that is no poo poo on the offensive end of things you and Observer mantra as the only one, true God.

your response? I hope it includes a reference to St. Johns...or looking at it from the icky side of things, Wyoming, Texas Tech, Davidson, etc., but I doubt it.

and I can't wait for GBJr. and KP to light it up...cannot wait. this stupid one or the other argument is bunk. the ability to shut off another team's perimeter threat is a special weapon...very underappreciated quite obviously, but no less special.

skan72
04-11-2011, 07:05 PM
Or because I'm trying to make the point that Few has nothing against starting freshman, and everything to do with the talent he has always had returning. I'm just trying to make that point, not argue.

"Few doesn't start Freshmen." False. Few hasn't HAD TO THINK ABOUT starting freshmen very often. Sorry for having an opinion. I'll stop.

I agree with NLZ insofar as in terms of guards, Few hasn't had to consider starting a freshman for awhile now.

NewLookZag
04-11-2011, 07:27 PM
stop, don't stop. noodle, don't noodle. who cares? but please quit playing the victim with your fake apology...weak sauce, and speaking only for myself, I do not accept.

re. GU basketball, who breaks the press, a St John's effective press? who guards the other teams wicked pg threat?

both are Task 1 point guard needs, and direct ways to win games, and more to the point, games in March...you get that, right? of course you do. that is no poo poo on the offensive end of things you and Observer mantra as the only one, true God.

your response? I hope it includes a reference to St. Johns...or looking at it from the icky side of things, Wyoming, Texas Tech, Davidson, etc., but I doubt it.

and I can't wait for GBJr. and KP to light it up...cannot wait. this stupid one or the other argument is bunk. the ability to shut off another team's perimeter threat is a special weapon...very underappreciated quite obviously, but no less special.

Are you talking to me..? If so, I don't really get your point. Whatever you rambled on about had absolutely nothing remotely close to my point, which has to do with Few and Freshmen. And I think my point is pretty accurate.

bballbeachbum
04-11-2011, 07:32 PM
Are you talking to me..? If so, I don't really get your point. Whatever you rambled on about had absolutely nothing remotely close to my point, which has to do with Few and Freshmen. And I think my point is pretty accurate.

that's all you got? you've tried to make more than just that point, NewLookZag...please :)

ramble on

NewLookZag
04-11-2011, 07:56 PM
that's all you got? you've tried to make more than just that point, NewLookZag...please :)

ramble on

No, I really haven't. I'm not an anti Meech, or anti Stockton guy at all. I just see what I see. It's no secret we have PG issues. Right? We can all agree on that. Stockton has shown us great things, and made some huge plays. So has Meech. Meech infact kind of settled into a new role late in the season. I liked it. He played well. But it didn't solve our PG issues. The job is open, simple as that. Not trying to start a war here with Meech and Stockton supporters. I support whoever is playing on the team, and I also welcome some competition.

bballbeachbum
04-11-2011, 08:22 PM
No, I really haven't. I'm not an anti Meech, or anti Stockton guy at all. I just see what I see. It's no secret we have PG issues. Right? We can all agree on that. Stockton has shown us great things, and made some huge plays. So has Meech. Meech infact kind of settled into a new role late in the season. I liked it. He played well. But it didn't solve our PG issues. The job is open, simple as that. Not trying to start a war here with Meech and Stockton supporters. I support whoever is playing on the team, and I also welcome some competition.

much more reasonable tone, thanks, seriously. we agree on many things

competition is great. whoever earns the minutes will earn them.

we had some pg issues, some issues at the 3, at the 4, and in general, life after Matt adjustments for a while...but I also liked our pgs, and they were not the catch-all blame for other 'issues' in my book. would also say they directly impacted, positively, the results down the stretch. once Q stepped forward last season, many issues were mitigated, including those at pg, but that had a lot to do with finally finding a viable option at the 3 (whether it was Q or Steven). Right?

and it's true, I like Meech, his game, what he brings to a team, to a game. and David ;)


GO ZAGS!!!

Bogozags
04-13-2011, 06:13 PM
Was this mentioned somewhere? I know that's where I want him to play, but the last I heard he wants to play with the ball in his hands, which many took as an expectation to play PG. It is a well established point that you don't have to be the "PG" to be the PG in this system, so it's somewhat irrelevant, but I was curious about the source of the above information.

I sure thought I read where he would rather play the two, which somewhat surprised me being only 6'1"/2"...but with the system we play, he could be anyone of the guards on the court as he is extremely capable at filling either position.