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ianmcdonalddds
02-10-2007, 09:12 PM
I am a graduate of Gonzaga class of 03. Currently, I am enrolled in Creighton University pursuing a degree in dental surgery. Every day I engage in a friendly argument with the faculty about who has the better team; Creighton or Gonzaga. Up until today, I didn't have any problem giving them a hard time about who really had the better team. In my four years here I have never felt embarrassed about wearing my Gonzaga apparel. This morning I felt something different.

So what do we do? Do we sweep it under the rug and forget about it? Do we inflict a harsh punishment, perhaps sending a message to others? Time will tell what necessary action needs to be taken. All I want as an alumnus (and speaking on behalf of other alumni), is a written response of how steps will be taken, ensuring to the best of the University’s ability, of how this will not happen again.

Gonzaga was built on a Cinderella story. We are the story book story to the country of what hard work and potential can accomplish, and we cannot afford to lose this. People look up to our athletes as great champions on the court as well in their lives beyond. This is our livelihood…we cannot afford to lose it. We cannot become an institute plagued by allegations. We all know of the Miami’s, the Florida States, the Colorado’s, etc. We cannot succumb this. I would like Coach Few to send a letter to all alumni explaining how we can prevent this. Cura Personalis is what we strive for, not simply to be the best team in the land without regard of what we were taught.

ZagPhD
02-10-2007, 09:21 PM
Well said. Well said. These two young men are exactly that. Young. Making mistakes is a part of growing up. At the same time, these gentlemen are embassadors for our University. Thus, their behavior reflects on the University as a whole. My thoughts and prayers are with Heytvelt, Davis, Few and the remainder of the coaching staff and administration as these are truly trying times for all.

RebornZag
02-10-2007, 10:32 PM
Sorry Mr. I'm wondering....do you think that Mark Few and his coaching staff planned this? It certainly sounds like you think it's his fault. Do you actually think they could have prevented this? Wake up!!! What you are asking for is completely unrealistic. Writing a plan that they'd use to do their very best to prevent this kind of thing ever happening again would be doable...But be realistic and understand there is no guarantee when it comes to this sort of thing. None.

zags422
02-10-2007, 10:32 PM
I'll be wearing my Bulldog sweatshirts come Monday, I suggest you do the same. A win is a win. And since Nebraska and Creighton both lost, as a fellow Nebraskan; rub it in their faces. They lost, we won. And we're still going to win the National Championship........probably.

Whalers86
02-10-2007, 10:57 PM
Love his talent, but hate is "look how neat I am" attitude. Hardly a pillar of what GU bball should be. I'm not saying it's "fair" to be a bball player vs. some other GU kid who smokes some weed and did a shroom or two. Life isn't fair and it isn't fair that you're 7 feet tall, have all this talent, are a dork as student and have shot to make millions as a pro. Josh is a cancer to the stellar organization. Cut him out NOW please....

ZagPants
02-10-2007, 11:05 PM
Love his talent, but hate is "look how neat I am" attitude. Hardly a pillar of what GU bball should be. I'm not saying it's "fair" to be a bball player vs. some other GU kid who smokes some weed and did a shroom or two. Life isn't fair and it isn't fair that you're 7 feet tall, have all this talent, are a dork as student and have shot to make millions as a pro. Josh is a cancer to the stellar organization. Cut him out NOW please....

You are so out of it and very out of touch with reality and the general sentiment that I've seen/heard in the GU community following this event.

Zag79
02-10-2007, 11:53 PM
whaler you dont know josh, im sure of it from your post. if other or past players had been caught you would lose alot of your favorite players believe that. a kid that smokes weed in the basketball world isnt a cancer just because of that.

siliconzag
02-11-2007, 06:21 AM
I hear you. I felt almost identical emotions. And I consoled myself, at least there is Creighton! And put on a Bluejays sweatshirt. I gotta say this has had a huge impact on our momentum and it has sullied the reputation of the basketball program and the University, no matter how much people want to use the "kids will be kids" mantra.

I hope that when the investigation is over, that the Administration assures itself that the coaching staff was very careful and serious about drug abuse. And if they weren't that a serious effort to avoid this in the future is put in place.

How embarassing to note the lead story on ESPN's tickertape yesterday being the arrest of JH and TD. The argument that students drink and smoke is not the point. Of course there is a double standard. Life is not fair, and the equity argument doesn't hold for me. Especially when these young men are representatives of the University, students and alumni alike. I agree that until we know the entire story, we should keep our powder dry, but this is a very serious setback.

I hope a zero tolerance policy exists. If not, one needs to be put in place immediately. I hope that Gonzaga handles this better than U Conn handled the computer burglary scandal. And part of what needs to be looked at, is how to help kids deal with the stress of being a high profile student athlete at a high profile basketball program. When it is all said and done, drug use and addiction are huge societal problems, but it is a cop out for the University and the coaching staff not to take proactive approach to this.

Ian, did you see the game against Southern Illinois. I thought the Jays had them, and then...curtains. Perhaps in the tournament. The Bluejays play better defense and handle the ball much better than Gonzaga. Their team play is better too. They are coming on, and I am optimistic for them even though they lost. As Doltzer heals, they are poised for a March run. At least that is what I tell myself on this dreary Sunday morning in Napa, CA. Let's Go Jays.

Sili

vandalzag
02-11-2007, 07:35 AM
You must live a perfect life to be that absolute. Rather than a letter maybe coach few should go to each house and explain his plans to avoid this. Better yet lets have the parents of future athletes send out letters assuring that they will not allow their child to act in any way that would embarrass you or any of your other holier than thou alumni. I would suggest that we see how things sort out before you cast any final judgments. I assume from your statement that you have led a perfect life, but it is hard for us mortals to live up that expectation. Maybe when we can you will let the rest of us live with you in Xanadu.

siliconzag
02-11-2007, 07:47 AM
You must live a perfect life to be that absolute. Rather than a letter maybe coach few should go to each house and explain his plans to avoid this. Better yet lets have the parents of future athletes send out letters assuring that they will not allow their child to act in any way that would embarrass you or any of your other holier than thou alumni. I would suggest that we see how things sort out before you cast any final judgments. I assume from your statement that you have led a perfect life, but it is hard for us mortals to live up that expectation. Maybe when we can you will let the rest of us live with you in Xanadu.

I think Ian is on target, as I have said above, so I guess I ride a high horse too. I think that is part of what being a Zag was all about. Drug addiction, if indeed that is the problem is complex, but most of the people in the field say that it must begin with zero tolerance. If a player or a student is suspected of having that problem, then it is incumbent on those in power to help those students find the correct path (i.e., drug rehabilitation). If you are saying that there is a bit of inequality in expectations between a Jesuit University and the NBA, I would respond, indeed there is. And there should be. Gonzaga, if it is really a special place, must be true to it's creed. To drift toward the "moral mean" and accept mediocrity is not in the tradition of the University. I am willing like the rest of you to wait until the truth unfolds, but I don't see how these two young men are going to be, as Ricky Ricardo used to say, "...splainin this one."

I find myself very troubled over this. Lots of emotional responses. It is difficult to be rational, I admit. If indeed Gonzaga plays "with it's heart", today the heart hurts. A lot.

Sili

vandalzag
02-11-2007, 07:58 AM
You are going a bit far with your addiction statement. And you are very naive if you think that there are not current or former student athletes (including those during the magical "what it takes to be a zag days") that have used illegal substances. This would also be the case the majority of Jesuit universities. And I never compared the expectations of the NBA or a Jesuit university. I was stating that the comments made were showing too much moral superiority, ironically something that has caused the Catholic church and Jesuit colleges problems in the past.

omahazag
02-11-2007, 09:07 AM
Vandalzag, I'm not one to post too often but your remarks stating that "moral superiority", (as you label )is what has caused the Catholic Church and Jesuit Schools problems couldn't be more wrong. Unlike moral relativist, as you seem to be, the Church and Jesuit schools seek to install in people that there are absolutes, right and wrong,in life. If you think that is "a problem" or where the church and Jesuit schools go wrong, i suggest you follow a different Church's and/or Schools philosophy where you don't have the "moral superiority" that apparently bugs you so much.
We all mess up, i know i have, but there are consequences and they should be severe especially when they reflect poorly on the school, not so much the basketball program. I hope Josh and Theo are treated the same as other students who violate GU's student policy and that this matter is put behind us sooon as possible.

siliconzag
02-11-2007, 09:43 AM
Ian, Omaha Zag, and Silicon Zag are in agreement on this point. I don't care to engage in an argument about moral relativism. However I am not sure what is the problem with the statement that when a student is found to have an addiction problem that they receive help with it. While this is not an idictment of the two young men who have been arrested, it is a statement which comes from a health care professional. It is kind of like penicillin for strep throats. Drug addiction needs rehab.

The definition of dependency is kind of dicey these days, and it has evolved a bit since I was a medical student at Creighton. However, in general if a person uses habitually, and cannot seem to stop, and experiences withdrawal and habituation upon recurrent use, and if it leads to problems (like getting arrested, or not performing well in your day to day functions, or showing a lack of accountability or good judgement)...then you have an addiction problem. JH's diagnosis aside, students who have a pattern of eratic behavior, who are inexplicably struggling academically, or who have big mood swings sometimes need help. And anyone in the helping profession, teacher, or counselor or health care professional should assist that person in finding the right path. Sometimes it takes a kick in the teeth to get the attention of the student who has an addiction problem. Sometimes arrest is the first clue that there is an addiction problem. And sometimes it is the case that somebody got caught with their pants down. In this case, seriously bad judgement was exhibited and there is no way this can be spun in a different light, it seems to me.

Addiction is a wide spread and complex problem, and it carries lots of moral judgement. We are all resopnsible for our actions, however the addicted person typically does not seek treatment without suffering a setback(s). Recreational drug use may not seem to be addiction, but it does appear that either there is an overall lack of judgement (particularly in light of what Bob Zag has shared) leading to drug use, or perhaps vice versa. That's the problem with the whole issue, it is hard to figure out what came first the abuse (frequent use for the moral relativists among you) or the poor judgement. Anyway, I don't feel as though I am on a high horse. I just can't accept that this is OK. It remains to be seen whether their was any "codependent" behavior from the coaching staff. I would hope not. If the statements that drug use is rampant among GU athletes and it has been overlooked in the past is true, then I have some concerns about that too.

Sili

SirLondonEnglandBritishII
02-11-2007, 10:58 AM
How many of you on this board can honestly say that you've never dabbled in illegal drugs? Does the fact that your face isn't plastered all over ESPN.com, The Spokesman-Review, or KHQ mean that you are immune to the same legal treatment these two young men will face? If not, then I suggest you march your self-important, self-righteous fanny down to your nearest police station and turn yourselves in for all the illegal things you may have done in your youth. But even though you might face the same legal repercussions, you would certainly be spared the popular disdain of thousands who sit at a distance and judge you without even a single thought given to the circumstances under which your actions were undertaken. These two young men became instant pariahs the moment the headline appeared on ESPN.com, and that stigma will follow them long after they have left college, and college basketball far behind. How much more stringent are our standards and expectations of those in the spotlight? How hypocritical to chastise and nearly crucify members of popular society for transgressions perpetrated by a large proportion of the very group that tries them for those crimes. Shame on you all. By the king's decree...
Sir London England British III

vandalzag
02-11-2007, 11:08 AM
Sili my concern would be making a diagnosis via the media. That seems to be misguided at best. You would think that you would need more information, maybe even speaking with the two of them before making a diagnosis. I assume you have your patients open their mouth before you decide a course of action. You may be spot on with your suggestion for these two. But in the bigger picture should we not wait and see all the facts before we determine a course of action. Think of the Duke case, who would have thought a public servant would manipulate a criminal case to further a political career. I would suggest we all take a deep breath and put our trust in the administration and coaching staff. When the dust settles I would assume that they would do what is best for both the young men and the university. Would that not be within Jesuit way of thinking. As opposed to taking a course of action based solely on appeasing the thoughts and feelings of alumni.

omahazag
02-11-2007, 11:22 AM
that we all step back and let the administration and coaching staff handle this in the appropriate manner. I'm sure they will do what it is in the best interests of all.

vandalzag
02-11-2007, 11:23 AM
Vandalzag, I'm not one to post too often but your remarks stating that "moral superiority", (as you label )is what has caused the Catholic Church and Jesuit Schools problems couldn't be more wrong. Unlike moral relativist, as you seem to be, the Church and Jesuit schools seek to install in people that there are absolutes, right and wrong,in life. If you think that is "a problem" or where the church and Jesuit schools go wrong, i suggest you follow a different Church's and/or Schools philosophy where you don't have the "moral superiority" that apparently bugs you so much.
We all mess up, i know i have, but there are consequences and they should be severe especially when they reflect poorly on the school, not so much the basketball program. I hope Josh and Theo are treated the same as other students who violate GU's student policy and that this matter is put behind us sooon as possible.
Omaha,
My issue is with absolutes. You said it yourself we all make mistakes. There are always consequences for ones actions (unless you play for bob huggins).
What bothers me is people casting judgment without facts. Should you not consider everything before you decide a course of action? There are too many examples of transgressions made in the name of absolutism. Faith is a wonderful thing, but it is not the end all. I have faith that the staff and administration will do the right thing when all the facts are known. If that does not happen then should I continue to have faith, would that not be an absolute?

omahazag
02-11-2007, 11:39 AM
Vandal,

Fair enough, if your point was about casting judgments before getting the facts out, then i understand and agree. Although, I must say, it will be pretty tough for the both of them to somehow explain away what they had in their possession. Maybe they will. Until then, I am done talking about it.

siliconzag
02-11-2007, 11:44 AM
I have no problem with allowing the process to take place. I do not claim to know for sure that this is a drug addiction problem, as I have stated above. I am saying that if it is, this is how it should be handled. What I am about to say next may surprise you. If it is drug addiction. That is an illness. It is treatable. It requires that those affected go through treatment. And if a person goes through rehab, they deserve a second chance. Not this year but next. If it is not drug addiction then it is an error in judgement. A serious error and I would kick their fannies right off the team, for good.

I don't proclaim to know what is going on. What I do not accept is the idea that there is some sort of hypocrisy involved here. When I get schnockered here in the Napa Valley, which is rare, but it does happen, I do not drive, especially with defective tail lights.

In my organization, violation of our drug and alcohol policy obligates those who are in violation to go to rehab immediately, without passing go, nor collecting $200. So there you have it. No double standard here. If the administration white washes this in anyway, I will change my name to Silicon Jay forever.

SiliconZag

sittingon50
02-11-2007, 01:27 PM
I can. I will soon be 55. It is a conscious choice I made when much younger. It doesn't make me any better than the next person.

ZagPhD
02-11-2007, 02:44 PM
Whether we are guilty of partaking in the use of controlled substances at some point in our youth is irrelevant. These athletes, especially the basketball players, are ambassadors for the University. As such, they ARE held to higher standard. These student athletes receive a full scholarship to put on the Gonzaga jersey and represent the school. I cannot fathom the pressure these young men must be facing because I am not in their shoes (whether because I CHOSE not to be or because I am a 6'0'' unathletic accountant is not the point), but the issue remains; these two young men made a dire mistake and must be punished accordingly. It is unfortunate for Josh and Theo, but I cannot condone their actions simply because many of us have experimented with illegal drugs at some point in our lives. Like it or not, the basketball players SHOULD be held to a higher standard. Whether or not they will be, remains to be seen.

I agree with Ian and Sili, this issue cannot be simply swept under the carpet and ignored. As important as the reputation of Gonzaga is to me as an alumnus, the most important thing is that the Josh and Theo are not simply "thrown under the bus" for the sake of maintaining our reputation as a fine, Jesuit institution. The school has a responsibility to deal with this matter swiftly and sternly, while at the same time bearing in mind the safety of these two young men and the compassion for humaness that is paramount to the Jesuit tradition.

Until then, I await the response of the coaching staff and school administration and I trust that it will appropriately reflect the core values of the University and its Jesuit tradition.

ZagPhD

zag4ever
02-11-2007, 03:06 PM
"Until then, I await the response of the coaching staff and school administration and I trust that it will appropriately reflect the core values of the University and its Jesuit tradition"

I don't always believe the school adminstration and the Jesuits response with the core values that they hold.If you need an example,just review the movement of certain Jesuits after sound evidence of abuse.But then again I guess they weren't held to a higher standard!

zagco
02-11-2007, 03:28 PM
I want to be VERY careful how I phrase this:

I've heard some things from a very well-placed source concerning specific things that have happened between players on the team. I will go no further....

If what I've heard is true, I am simply stunned that we are where we are. When I first heard it from my source, I could not believe it and said I would immediately remove a certain player from the team, period.

Since that time, I have grown more and more convinced that this supremely talented team that has shown flashes of greatness is performing so poorly because of what I've heard, like a cancer growing within. I became somewhat despondent about it several weeks ago. Now, I am mad.

brasszag
02-11-2007, 03:32 PM
hints, allegations, and mutterings.

Could that have been any vaguer?

Zagaholic
02-11-2007, 03:36 PM
I also have heard specific things about certain players on a certain team that is located in a certain state in a certain country ....

Air Force Zag
02-11-2007, 04:21 PM
Some semi-random thoughts:

- The curious thing about all these nebulous references (seen on several threads) is their common theme: supposedly things are worse, or have been worse than you think. But inevitably, many of these posters also follow with a line of thinking that seems to say: "you'd think differently if ______ was caught. Nope...not me. All the more reason to deal with this situation directly, perhaps even harshly -- there is the rest of the program, and these other "hidden offenders" that need a warning shot. Interestingly, I haven't seen any of these nebulous posts going the other way.

- Not trying to say these young men are guilty before proven innocent, but the idea that if the allegations are true (and lets hope for their sake, they are not), then they were just young men who made a mistake...well, to me that really does not hold water. There is a mistake, then there is a crime. Staying up late the night before a game is a mistake, poor judgment -- they are charged with a crime...the consequences are much greater.

- Basketball = privilege, not a right.

- Being harsh, for the sake of these two men, may be the right thing to do for their long term future...may not be perceived as fair by us here in the proletariat. Developing character sometimes stings a bit.

- Just because "everyone has done it" does not make it right. I work in an organization (perhaps you can tell from my screen name) that does not tolerate drug offenses...just not compatible with the job. We seem to get thousands of folks who have never tried drugs...so maybe everyone has not done it. Those in my line of work (and many others) that do drugs, almost always get help...then get shown the door -- that sort of bad judgment is just not compatible with most jobs.

- Zero tolerance is not a bad thing...we have zero tolerance for murders, kidnappers, suicides, etc...but they happen. But just because it happens sometimes (or even frequently) does not mean we should condone it. It is almost starting to appear that someone who does not have any compulsion to occasionally commit a crime is abnormal...hmm.

- Disclaimer: Agree, they should not be tried by the media or the public eye...the investigation will continue. But that does not mean it is inappropriate to discuss...speculation is 50% of what a message board is all about.

ZagPants
02-11-2007, 04:56 PM
I want to be VERY careful how I phrase this:

I've heard some things from a very well-placed source concerning specific things that have happened between players on the team. I will go no further....

If what I've heard is true, I am simply stunned that we are where we are. When I first heard it from my source, I could not believe it and said I would immediately remove a certain player from the team, period.

Since that time, I have grown more and more convinced that this supremely talented team that has shown flashes of greatness is performing so poorly because of what I've heard, like a cancer growing within. I became somewhat despondent about it several weeks ago. Now, I am mad.

I have it, from a very reliable source, that this bust is only the beginning. For years, coach Few has helped his players with pre-game jitters by providing copious amounts of mind altering substances. At times his lipstick could be found gracing the same bong as his starting, star players IMHO FWIW SFBYA.

zagco
02-11-2007, 05:34 PM
I'm not talking about drugs. Plus, I have no problem granting Josh and the freshman their day in court to answer to legal charges and the presumption of innocence. With respect to what I am alluding to in a crypto-dramatic way (sorry), I have no reasonable doubt that quite a few posters on this board know EXACTLY what I am talking about.

brasszag
02-11-2007, 05:54 PM
Spill it or drop it.

zag47
02-12-2007, 05:14 AM
Zagco on another thread you're saying people will equate longer hair with dope, I think the world will soon come to the conclusion that there are deep dark secrets and sins in the GU locker room and the coach should start drug testing on all players with long hair. The biggest condeming thing I've seen all weekend was in the Denver Post Article on Bouldin about him being a fan of Harry Potter. Long hair likes Harry Potter gotta be a doper.

pdxzagfan
02-12-2007, 06:52 AM
Zagco, please check your inbox. Thx.