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View Full Version : Double foul= clueless refs



Zag 77
01-28-2011, 08:50 PM
Opposing players fall down. Refs don't know what to do, so they huddle and call a double foul. Whenever you see this, it is a cop out. Last night it cost us a valuable foul on Sacre in the second half.

webspinnre
01-28-2011, 10:44 PM
For those interested, the best footage of it is at 1:14:18 in the ESPN3 replay. You can clearly show minimal contact at all of Rob with Benson, and Rob basically walking through with a slight bump from the ref and an SMC player. Unless Rob said something stupid, there's no foul there.

Ziggy
01-28-2011, 10:50 PM
Watch again, Jones bumps him as he stands up causing him to "walk over" the player on the floor.

SunDevilGolfZag
01-29-2011, 05:07 AM
I thought the ref that pushed Rob made the whole situation look way worse and then they blame Rob. It was like WWF wrestling when the ref decides to take a few made-for-TV cheap shots too. Pathetic to call a foul on anyone but the SMC guy. :vomit-smiley-007: Rob was within his leeway to be pissed off. Its not like he punched the guy.

Jedster
01-29-2011, 07:21 AM
My view was Rob was a bit mad at being pulled down, but what seemed to set him off was the arm that wrapped around his neck very briefly. It wasn't a full on wrap, but you could see his arm slide up and flex a bit at his neck. That seemed to set Rob off. They didn't say anything about it on the broadcast, and I won't insinuate it was intentional, but I won't rule that out either. I also agree, Rob was bumped into by Rob Jones that pushed him forward.

bigblahla
01-29-2011, 07:35 AM
Anybody capable of putting this sequence on you tube?

Go!! Zags!!!

Hoopaholic
01-29-2011, 09:17 AM
I might add the ESPN U replay yesterday had a huddle shot of SMC during the "ref huddle" and SMC Benson was smiling.......disgusted me as if he knew he got away with getting a foul on Sacre

Sacre is a marked man due to his overwhleming success and no other WCC team having ANYONE who can man up with him...play thru it big Rob we will survive

gamagin
01-29-2011, 09:27 AM
I might add the ESPN U replay yesterday had a huddle shot of SMC during the "ref huddle" and SMC Benson was smiling.......disgusted me as if he knew he got away with getting a foul on Sacre

Sacre is a marked man due to his overwhleming success and no other WCC team having ANYONE who can man up with him...play thru it big Rob we will survive

Rob caused the situation that would even have made a double foul possible with his anger routine (valid or not) around the confusion. It was still a terrible call, imo, but turned out to be the best play his opponent managed to pull off vs. RS. RS hasn't played with 4 fouls in a long time. And he let himself get rattled. another of those things that in a close game make a difference. SG foulling out was another game changer. It only takes a few and SMC managed to tilt it just enough to give them an edge. then capitalized on it. Speaking of that, if RS' butt had been aimed at the basket when McConnell went up for that circus shot, I think he'd have been blocked or at least got a hand on it. Easily. So it went in the game of inches that we lost.

Hoopaholic
01-29-2011, 09:40 AM
Rob "caused" the double foul? Amazing

I still am waiting for explanation as to what he "DID" that was classified as a FOUL... as I am strugglling finding the rule that "stepping over" your opponent is a foul...I just cant seem to find that rule

Rob was wrestled to the ground

Rob had an arm go AROUND his neck in a choke hold fashion

(which there is no logical reason for doing this and from my perspective was on purpose after they hit the ground...remember it was left arm of Benson over the top of Rob's left arm while standing so there is no RATIONAL, LOGICAL explanation that your EXTENDED arm bends and goes around a players neck once you hit the ground)

Rob getting up is hip checked by Jones (still wondering why that was not called)

Rob moved away from the situation and did not reengage


So if you think he "caused" this I would like to hear what he did to have a foul assessed...as many people on the court get angry during a game at cheap play but you dont see fouls called for that

NEC26
01-29-2011, 10:01 AM
Rob "caused" the double foul? Amazing

I still am waiting for explanation as to what he "DID" that was classified as a FOUL... as I am strugglling finding the rule that "stepping over" your opponent is a foul...I just cant seem to find that rule

Rob was wrestled to the ground

Rob had an arm go AROUND his neck in a choke hold fashion

(which there is no logical reason for doing this and from my perspective was on purpose after they hit the ground...remember it was left arm of Benson over the top of Rob's left arm while standing so there is no RATIONAL, LOGICAL explanation that your EXTENDED arm bends and goes around a players neck once you hit the ground)

Rob getting up is hip checked by Jones (still wondering why that was not called)

Rob moved away from the situation and did not reengage


So if you think he "caused" this I would like to hear what he did to have a foul assessed...as many people on the court get angry during a game at cheap play but you dont see fouls called for that

+1 two extremely bad fouls called on Rob Thursday night. As in, Are those refs completely inept? bad.

Das Zagger
01-29-2011, 10:06 AM
Sacre is a marked man due to his overwhleming success and no other WCC team having ANYONE who can man up with him...play thru it big Rob we will survive

I'd love to hear your thoughts on the CIA's involvement with the Kennedy assassination.


Let's keep blaming the refs, obviously they don't want Gonzaga to succeed.


All aboard the SS Loser.

duper
01-29-2011, 10:08 AM
What Rob did wrong was react or more like over react to the situation. Trying to act like a UW tough guy thug, cost him the foul. Plus I thought Rob flopped on the original play. Not every call that goes against GU is wrong, and crying just makes us look like elementary school kids looking for an excuse.

Das Zagger
01-29-2011, 10:11 AM
What Rob did wrong was react or more like over react to the situation. Trying to act like a UW tough guy thug, cost him the foul. Plus I thought Rob flopped on the original play. Not every call that goes against GU is wrong, and crying just makes us look like elementary school kids looking for an excuse.

I like the cut of your jib.

However, UW has no thugs, just a variety of studio gangstas.

NEC26
01-29-2011, 10:11 AM
What Rob did wrong was react or more like over react to the situation. Trying to act like a UW tough guy thug, cost him the foul. Plus I thought Rob flopped on the original play. Not every call that goes against GU is wrong, and crying just makes us look like elementary school kids looking for an excuse.

What exactly was the foul on him though? His angry expression? Stepping over the other player? Being thrown to the ground maybe?
Struggling to understand were he fouled exactly.

madness
01-29-2011, 10:14 AM
Just watched the Gtown-Nova game. The refs were not noticeable. This is the way it should be.

gamagin
01-29-2011, 10:16 AM
Rob "caused" the double foul? Amazing I still am waiting for explanation as to what he "DID" that was classified as a FOUL... as I am strugglling finding the rule that "stepping over" your opponent is a foul...I just cant seem to find that rule

Rob was wrestled to the ground Rob had an arm go AROUND his neck in a choke hold fashion (which there is no logical reason for doing this and from my perspective was on purpose after they hit the ground...remember it was left arm of Benson over the top of Rob's left arm while standing so there is no RATIONAL, LOGICAL explanation that your EXTENDED arm bends and goes around a players neck once you hit the ground). Rob getting up is hip checked by Jones (still wondering why that was not called) Rob moved away from the situation and did not reengageSo if you think he "caused" this I would like to hear what he did to have a foul assessed...as many people on the court get angry during a game at cheap play but you dont see fouls called for that

as I said, did not see RS do anything that constituted a foul.

But what he should have done is walk away. move away. shut your mouth. not appear to menace the other guy. let your coach do the arguing and talking, demanding a flagrant foul or a T, which I thought it was, and insist they review THAT. If you're RS, you gotta clap your hands and treat it like an opportunity for two more free throws, which it was. You have won.

That said, it was a lousy call. I said that.

A foul was called on the other guy. It only changed to include RS when he, fairly or unfairly, rightly or wrongly, stuck around and did what he did to give the officials ANY reason to even review, much less make, that crappy call.

Had he gone into the team huddle that occurs after every foul, right away, as they also do even in a contentious situation or game, I posit there would have been no double called.

Unless, of course, Bennett (asked for and got) or the refs decided on their own to review the call. If that was the case, there is nothing RS could have done. I don't know if that happend or not. The refs big boss was there, so who knows ?

But what I saw from my seat was a pause in the game and the situation, after Rob attempted to get up, growling and angry because the other guy was still piled on him, then motioning and turning back to the other guy and doing stuff which STILL didn't look like anything approaching a foul. Nevertheless, while rob was raising his arms and a teammate or two was sorta restraining him from returning to face the fouler, "something" prompted enough attention to the point where the refs decided to review not just their call, but RS's possible part in the matter.

SunDevilGolfZag
01-29-2011, 01:21 PM
What exactly was the foul on him though? His angry expression? Stepping over the other player? Being thrown to the ground maybe?
Struggling to understand were he fouled exactly.

+1 Really, the way things are going, pretty soon he'll be getting fouls calls for just his thoughts

JPtheBeasta
01-29-2011, 02:05 PM
I thought a double foul was for something in the context of a normal basketball play. Ie Rob made an action that would be considered a normal foul, but it also occured simultaneously with the other player fouling him. If it was determined that Sacre did something egregious by the refs it should have been a technical foul.
I'm not saying I thought he did anything. But the way events played out, Sacre's actions were after play had stopped during the dead whistle and I don't see how a "regular" foul could have been called. This is a head scratcher and seems to be a ruling they made up for the situation. If anyone has a deeper insight into this I would be delighted to learn something new.

willandi
01-29-2011, 02:24 PM
Thought Benson should have picked up a flagrant for the take-down. If there were additional fouls, they were after that. Should have been two shots plus the ball.

webspinnre
01-29-2011, 03:39 PM
Anybody capable of putting this sequence on you tube?

Go!! Zags!!!

I'm not very good at this video thing, but here goes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kY8i80phpeY


Thought Benson should have picked up a flagrant for the take-down.

Watch the above video. It's a pretty standard foul, followed by some acting by Rob. Nothing worthy of a flagrant.

duper
01-29-2011, 05:19 PM
Great find on the video! That should just about end this thread by answering the question of what Rob did wrong.

fedwayzag
01-29-2011, 07:34 PM
agree probably not flagrant but see absolutely no way it is a double foul. I was watching in DVR so fast forwarded through all the reviews and had no idea it was a double foul

duper
01-29-2011, 07:40 PM
There is no doubt it is a double foul! Foul on Benson originally, then on Rob for push ind Benson in the face. Whether deserved or not it is a foul.

webspinnre
01-29-2011, 09:14 PM
Duper, if you watched the video and the multiple angles, Rob didn't even get Benson in the face. It's just a random arm flail that brushes across in front of the face. Rob makes more contact when he's walking past and his arm bumps hard into Benson's arm.

duper
01-29-2011, 10:50 PM
Duper, if you watched the video and the multiple angles, Rob didn't even get Benson in the face. It's just a random arm flail that brushes across in front of the face. Rob makes more contact when he's walking past and his arm bumps hard into Benson's arm.

WOW! if you can say he didn't make contact with his face after watching the video, you are a much bigger GU fan than me. I try to give GU player the benefit of the doubt in all cases but WOW!

webspinnre
01-29-2011, 11:15 PM
That'll teach me to go from memory instead of looking again. Sacre caught the very bottom of his chin, and there's no indication whatsoever of intentionality. It's at the 17 second mark of the clip I uploaded. No contact with the front of his face at all. From the other angles it looks like there's significant contact, but that angle shows very clearly.

Bogozags
01-30-2011, 05:05 AM
Rob did not do a single thing wrong on that play.

(1) His acting was convincing.
(2) He did not initiate any contact.
(3) He was grabbed and pushed by the Center Official and moved away.

I watched this sequence at least thirty times and there was no foul committed by Rob during that sequence.

Some of you feel he didn't get as far away as possible from the play and therefore, words could have come out of his mouth that would have warranted a foul!?!? A personal foul/common foul can only be committed during a live ball situation. If a foul is committed during a dead ball, it must be a technical foul and the refs clearly didn't give Rob a technical foul but a personal foul; therefore, the ref felt Rob must have been complacent during the take down.

I have no doubt that the commissioner will review this play several times and "criticize" this crew for making this call! Collegiate officials come under much scrutiny and this incident will become a "teachable moment" during their off-season meetings/conferences.

They blew the call. It should have been the fourth foul on Benson, with GU getting the ball out of bounds on the baseline.

bigblahla
01-30-2011, 08:36 AM
Dropped another email to the commish with the link attached.

Go!! Zags!!!

duper
01-30-2011, 09:09 AM
Sorry but a common foul can be committed while the clock is not running. It happens all the time on inbounds plays. The reason it wasn't a technical was the ref probably deemed it an accident plus used a little judgement. If you look at the body language of Rob it probably was no accident, but that in it self doesn't warrant the foul but the contact does.

JPtheBeasta
01-30-2011, 09:39 AM
Sorry but a common foul can be committed while the clock is not running. It happens all the time on inbounds plays. The reason it wasn't a technical was the ref probably deemed it an accident plus used a little judgement. If you look at the body language of Rob it probably was no accident, but that in it self doesn't warrant the foul but the contact does.

I think you are comparing apples to oranges. Rob's foul was a reaction/retaliation to a hard foul while he was either on the ground with a guy on top of him or as he was getting up. This was not in the context of a basketball play and was reactionary to something that just happened to him. He wasn't playing defense or offense at this point. The foul was called to levy some form of order or fairness. A foul then a double technical I would buy, but a double foul is just not the proper call, in my opinion. Further, if the ref deemed Rob's actions as an accident, as was suggested, he could have used even a little more judgement and not called anything.

Bogozags
01-30-2011, 01:23 PM
Sorry but a common foul can be committed while the clock is not running. It happens all the time on inbounds plays. The reason it wasn't a technical was the ref probably deemed it an accident plus used a little judgement. If you look at the body language of Rob it probably was no accident, but that in it self doesn't warrant the foul but the contact does.

My understanding is that when the official hands the ball to A1 for throw in, the ball is then alive; however, the clock won't start until touched by a player. It has been awhile since I've been in a rule book but that is what I recollect from memory. Also, if memory serves, technicals can only be given to a player during a dead ball situation, with the definition of a player being one of the ten players on the court, not the bench or substitutes.

It appears the officials concluded Rob was also to blame for being "taken down" by Benson.

willandi
01-30-2011, 02:42 PM
Of course Rob was partly to blame. Ih he hadn't been on the court, 7' tall and/or carrying the Zags, it wouldn't have happened.
I was just a little surprised that Hart, or another sub (Keita, Arop) wasn't assigned to greet McConnell at 1/2 court, and swat high at the ball, accidentally catching the bridge of his nose. I guess the Zags have more class than that.
Still should have been an intentional on Benson for the take down. You can't do that in football, why should you be able to in B'ball.

webspinnre
01-30-2011, 03:41 PM
Will, at least part of that fall is Rob flopping. I have no problem with that, but it doesn't mean we should go assessing intentional fouls. As for Rob's "foul" I'm assuming you're talking about Rob flailing his arms and catching Benson's chin. Considering both are falling to the floor, I don't see how this can be anything other than incidental. Just last night I was watching Stanford playing someone, and one of their players took an elbow to the chin on a purely incidental play, they went to the monitors and didn't assess a foul. It was much worse than what Rob did.