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View Full Version : Perimeter recruiting since Gray....



TacomaZAG
01-28-2011, 04:28 PM
I was thinking about the team all day and then it hit me...

Think about the guys who have been brought in to play on the perimeter since Gray (in no particular order, and not a complete list):

Hoff - nothing to brag about yet
Arop - not consistent as of yet
Keita - unknown
Meech - everyone already knows
Stocks - never going to be a scorer
Carter - Nothing yet
GJ - transferred out
Gibbs - transferred out
Kong - left the team
Kid from back east, concussion - transferred out

My point is we are batting a whopping 0.000 since Gray came in 4 years ago, regarding guys who can score from the perimeter. Not sure what happened but the cupboard is BARE, especially after Steven graduates. Sure, a couple of highly touted Frosh are coming in, but there are no guarantees and how many times in the last decade has Few given a frosh major minutes.

Good guards win games, especially from beyond the arc. The recruiting has really been awful for the last 4 years, hopefully GBJ and Dranginis can change that next year. That, to me is where we have regressed and the rest of the conference has improved.

What happened to Guard U??????

Go ZAGS

btzag
01-28-2011, 04:48 PM
Yes, I was thinking about this same thing today though more in the context of, "Uh Oh, what happens next year", when Gray is gone. Now maybe the big three for next year will produce all they are hyped to be but if not not it could be ugly.

It will be interesting to see recruiting strategy over the next couple years with the guards as in the last decade the shift has been huge. GU first started out with somewhat un-athletic all around guards who could shoot it and run an offense but routinely could not guard the elite athletic guards across the country. These guards, Santangelo/Stepp/Dickau/Raivio, also were not big time one on one players but no one can question their overall success.

Then it seems things shifted... GU had more success and exposure and I think tried to jump up to the next level and recruit guards who had athleticism FIRST and all those other characteristics and skills as secondary components. This group would include Pargo/Meech/GJ/PMAC etc... and frankly that group, other than Pargo, was completely disappointing.

Obviously there were exceptions like Q Hall with the earlier group and Bouldin with the latter and Gray of course has been a huge success but I think GU is in a weird area where they are still trying to get that guard that can do it all (athleticism, shooting, get to the rim, run the offense, defense) but don't yet recruit on the level of the truly elite teams. Notable "pass-ups" like Tinsley just absolutely kill me...can you imagine that kid running our offense right now?? WOW

Maybe this new group will break the trend? I personally think they will as Pangos seems to be an upper level "true" point guard, Bell seems to be an all-around guard with Gray-like potential and Dranginis seems to be an all-arounder with good SG prospects. Also don't count out Stockton...he is scrappy and solid in the basic skills of the game...don't discount a kid because he is not an elite athlete!

The future looks good in my opinion and I think the O-fer streak will END!

TheBunnieRancher
01-28-2011, 07:41 PM
How about a different spin. A couple of years ago we had a few complaining about Matt playing the "4" for USA Basketball instead of staying home and working on his game here. He had a disappointing Frosh-Soph jump similarly to Olynyk and Harris. Bouldin worked his a$$ off between soph-jr year and stepped up his game. Maybe our soph's need to do the same. GU is as much about developing their kids as they are recruiting good kids.

MJ777
01-28-2011, 11:13 PM
How about a different spin. A couple of years ago we had a few complaining about Matt playing the "4" for USA Basketball instead of staying home and working on his game here. He had a disappointing Frosh-Soph jump similarly to Olynyk and Harris. Bouldin worked his a$$ off between soph-jr year and stepped up his game. Maybe our soph's need to do the same. GU is as much about developing their kids as they are recruiting good kids.

Are the current players Gym rats like the Zags of Olde?

roxdoc
01-28-2011, 11:20 PM
Over the last few yeas we have lost two very good assistants - any correlation?

Zagatron
01-29-2011, 12:37 AM
There is definitely a correlation. Those two knew what to look for when getting GU type players. I dont know who is most responsible for the development of the players? These recruits are still young and will find their way just hard to watch when the team is losing games we aren't accustomed to seeing. Bouldin led the team in scoring his sophomore year.

GrizZAG
01-29-2011, 04:58 AM
FWIW..

There is a similarity to hiring and recruiting. In hiring you do everything you can to identify who the best candidate is to enhance your organization. You look at credentials, history, accomplishments and so on, but personality really is king. You can do a lot with a good personality but all the qualifications in the world cannot build the team chemistry you need for collective success. A lot of MBA's don't know how to play well with others for example. As hiring executive you do your best to pick a winner, but every one in that position for a long time will tell you it is very hard to get it right every time.

As recruiter, you have data and history first to consider, but in the end, the innate leadership, drive and compatibility issues are harder to assess. Tons of kids who are stars in high school just don't correlate into college level players.
Without going over the top on analytical, we have not found our MM, Freddette or even Delly. Keep looking, he's out there somewhere. Maybe one of the newbies??

SUSpokanative
01-29-2011, 08:32 AM
Coach needs to compete in Seattle area at the AAU level to find players that otherwise will be grabbed by Romar, Dollar and Bone, which has been happening consistently the last few seasons. Getting players from around the globe who devote the off season the national teams doesn't cut it. I could see Coach Daniels as an effective recruiter in this scenario.

Zagdawg
01-29-2011, 09:12 AM
The Zag coaching staff will continue to go where they think the best talent and fit lies ....if it is Seattle area they will go (see Bell) if it is Canada, Oklahoma, Idaho, or Minnesota and so on.... If you put all of your eggs in one basket (area) you will be disappointed.

gamagin
01-29-2011, 09:31 AM
Coach needs to compete in Seattle area at the AAU level to find players that otherwise will be grabbed by Romar, Dollar and Bone, which has been happening consistently the last few seasons. Getting players from around the globe who devote the off season the national teams doesn't cut it. I could see Coach Daniels as an effective recruiter in this scenario.

Dewey, Cheatem and Howe.

zag67
01-29-2011, 10:13 AM
What are you looking for in the perimeter player? Shooter, assists, defense,(and you cannot say all when they first get here) ...... Until you answer that, you do not know where we are and where we will stand in the next year(s). I first have to say that I do agree that none of them are stepping up and removing all of the rest from contention. I also think that we are comparing the finished products of our glory years to first year players of today.

I think that you have to say at this time the grades are not out for Hoff, Keita, Stockton, or Carter. All these are first year players and at almost all colleges, it takes freshmen (or first year players) at least a half a year to learn this system and be able to be expected to be a major contributer (Harris was unexpected last year). I also think that you can say each of them has shown "moments" of brilliance. In losing Gibbs and GJ he lost the backups (because both of them felt that their playing time would be limited) that are needed to have consistency. We lost Kong to grades and he might have been the shooter that we to take the pressure off of Steven.

Also how can you say that a person cannot be a shooter? Do you have some insight into the future that none of the rest of us have? You might be correct, but having watched kids grow, I have to say that I have seen many kids become shooters (if they want to spend the time in the gym (with a coach) and practice fundamentals.) Even look at Robert at the foul line from what he was 2 years ago and what he is now. Many of us are expecting freshmen to come in and immediately be able to compete at a D1 level. I thinik that this is unreasonable and we need to let them come in and improve their defeciencies and hopefully be able to help us with their strong points.

Zagquette
01-29-2011, 10:15 AM
Where we whiffed was not with replacing Gray, it was with replacing pargo and bouldin. The coaches brought in Meech and Gibbs to fill their sneakers and neither lived up to expectations.

The others you mention aren't point guards and that is where we are the weakest.The way I see it, Few recruits three types of players: those that are high level, three year starters; role players; and projects (transfers, jucos, glue guys).

If you look at every class in a two year group. He has a pretty good balance of these types of players.

The key to our sucess is that most of the top level guys (Pargo, bouldin, stepp, turiaf) have lived up to or suceed expectations. Ocassionaly the transfers and project guys have sucess but most have been role players and some have gone down in flames (diallo, burgess, and davis).

Most of those you mentioned were not recruited to be stars, or top level talent.

No we are in a situation where we are trying plug the recruiting gap with players that are not of the caliber of a bouldin or Pargo and the results are pretty apparent.

So I don't believe that we have whiffed on a number of guys, just two guys and that's why we are in the current predicament.

When a red shirt freshman David Stockton, who is playing great, is your best option at point this is not what come to expect from GU basketball.

Peace

CaliforniaZaggin'
01-29-2011, 12:01 PM
Recruiting is unpredictable. Look at UNC. Roy Williams has tremendous juice in the recruiting world, but he's had lots of players not develop the way he'd certainly hoped in recent years.

TacomaZAG
01-29-2011, 03:17 PM
I agree that the jury is still out on all the present players, and I admit that I overstepped by saying that Stocks will never be a scorer, as never is a very long time and doesn't take into account hard work, physical growth, etc. Thanks for calling me out on that.

Regarding your question as to what I'm looking for in perimeter players. For the PG position, I'm looking for someone who can control the floor, run the offense, shoot 80%+ from the line, limit turnovers, and hit from behind the arc (35-40%) when left open in order to keep the defense honest. If he can penetrate and dish to our other perimeter guys, all the better. If he is average defensively, that is all that is required (DRAV is the most recent prototype for me). This position is the most important for me, as everyone's success is based on the play of the PG.

For the SG position, give me a guy like Gray all day long. A guy who can catch/shoot and create off the dribble, with both a mid-range game and ability to hit from 3. Better than average defensively, better than average from the stripe, average passer.

The SF position for me is dependent on who the SG is, and what he does best. Depending on the personnel, maybe run a 3-guard offense. For the typical Zag SF, give me a guy who can get to the rim, with a complementary mid-range game. If he can knock down the open 3, all the better. Average rebounder, average defensively, can run the floor well for his size.

Those skills are for the starters, with the reserves filling in the weak points. I'm not a fan of a rotation of more than 8 guys, so complementary skills and abilities are imperative in the perimeter guys.

Based on that wish list, IMHO this team is lacking a consistent PG (no surprise based on countless threads), specifically a Stocks who can score or a Meech who can run the offense and control the floor. That guy could be Carter but we just haven't seen it yet. Also, when any two, or all three of those guys are on the floor at the same time, the weaknesses of each are magnified and the strengths minimized. Maybe Bell and/or Dranginis is the guy next year but very rarely is a freshman ready for that kind of responsibility. This puts extreme pressure on Steven to do things he is not best able to do.

We are in great shape at the SG position for this year, but I don't see anyone ready to step in to his role/shoes next year. Hopefully, I'm wrong there, maybe Keita or Hoff will grow into that position over the summer or one of the frosh will come in next year and set the world on fire.

Where we are really lacking this year, IMHO, is at the SF position. Elias has shown flashes of brilliance, as has Manny, but the consistency has been sorely lacking, and this puts additional pressure on Steven to carry even more of the perimeter load. Hopefully, Elais gets back to how he can play, Manny makes a big jump, or Spangler comes in next year ready to go.

If we had any two of the three perimeter positions covered, we would be looking at team success of years past. But, with only one of the three covered, the overall perimeter weakness is magnified. We aren't that far away this year, but the margin for error is razor thin and our lack of a second perimeter threat has really been a problem, especially when Steven is injured (Elias, too) and either of them get into foul trouble.

Just got to keep improving this year and hope for a great weekend in Vegas. For next year, hope this year's guys make a big jump for next year, and one of the frosh (GBJ, Dranginis, Spangler) come in ready to make a major contribution.

Go ZAGS

Hoopaholic
01-29-2011, 03:32 PM
so when you say vague terms such as "Control the floor" "run the offense"

does that mean you are looking for someone who gets their team in top 30 scoring, top 30 in assists and top 20 in shooting percentage?

just trying to get a feel for what standards you have for success as it pertains to controlling the floor and running an offense as it pertains to a division 1 program