PDA

View Full Version : More Stockton less Goodson Please!



WhitworthZAG
01-27-2011, 08:07 PM
I know Goodson brings a lot to the table with his defense and ability to push the ball up the court but I have become more and more confident with Stockton handling the offense. He is a very good passer to the low post which is what this offense revolves around. He can also knock down the open shot which opens up the passing lanes to the middle. Just wondering what others think.

JosephZags
01-27-2011, 08:10 PM
With how Gray is playing...I'd rather have Stockton in for Gray.

The509sfinest
01-27-2011, 08:15 PM
I also think Stockton should be playing for Goodson also...till Pangos comes anyway. Still love Goodson though :) Gary Bell has the SG spot no doubt next year because Grays leaving.

LMUZAG
01-27-2011, 08:16 PM
With how Gray is playing...I'd rather have Stockton in for Gray.

While Gray is struggling, I don't think it can be ignored that the other teams still target and gear their defense to stop Gray and Sacre. Stockton would not garner that attention and would limit opportunities for other players. BTW I do recognize Stockton's ability to run the offense and set up others, but I still think it is not a worthwhile trade.

titopoet
01-27-2011, 09:28 PM
You got More Stockton.
And now you got more losses.

For every good thing he does, he does four bad.

northsidezagfan
01-27-2011, 09:31 PM
You got More Stockton.
And now you got more losses.

For every good thing he does, he does four bad.
couldnt have said it better myself. brought absolutely nothing to the table tonight yet played nearly the entire second half. got murdered on defense and his only assists came on passes to wide open shooters. the stockton bandwagon stops here. i hope.

NEC26
01-27-2011, 09:32 PM
couldnt have said it better myself. brought absolutely nothing to the table tonight yet played nearly the entire second half. got murdered on defense and his only assists came on passes to wide open shooters. the stockton bandwagon stops here. i hope.

Murdered on defense? You wanna know why Meech wasn't out there? Cause Micky was slicing and dicing him all game long. Stocks defense wasn't perfect but it was actually better.

WhitworthZAG
01-27-2011, 09:34 PM
Northside and tito you guys are idiots. No basketball knowledge is your problem.

northsidezagfan
01-27-2011, 09:35 PM
you dont need any basketball knowledge to see that stockton did absolutely nothing productive tonight

NEC26
01-27-2011, 09:37 PM
you dont need any basketball knowledge to see that stockton did absolutely nothing productive tonight

Remeber that run we made with Dower scoring all those points? Stockton had three assists to him. In fact every pass was from Stockton to him except one I believe. Guess who fed the post better than any other player on our team? Yep that would be Stockton.

ZagLawGrad
01-27-2011, 09:38 PM
Remeber that run we made with Dower scoring all those points? Stockton had three assists to him. In fact every pass was from Stockton to him except one I believe. Guess who fed the post better than any other player on our team? Yep that would be Stockton.

Speaking of Dower----He looked GREAT tonight

EngineerZag
01-27-2011, 09:38 PM
Stockton was the only player consistently able to feed the post and MM scored most of his points off of switches with Rob on him. Stockton wasn't guarding MM all that much, in fact Gray was guarding him quite a bit as was Meech. Stockton had several smart defensive plays and hustle plays causing turnovers. Give me a break.

northsidezagfan
01-27-2011, 09:40 PM
Remeber that run we made with Dower scoring all those points? Stockton had three assists to him. In fact every pass was from Stockton to him except one I believe. Guess who fed the post better than any other player on our team? Yep that would be Stockton.

one was to a wide open dower at the top of the key and one was at the free throw line. remember when rob had 15 in the first half? meech was feeding him on his way to more assists than stockton.

zagzilla
01-27-2011, 09:41 PM
Not a good game for baby stock tonight. Jacked up a terrible 3 late. Missed front end of a critical 1 and 1. Played out of control throughout. The way he got posted up underneath the basket midway through the second half was a bummer. You can't coach size.

northsidezagfan
01-27-2011, 09:41 PM
Stockton was the only player consistently able to feed the post and MM scored most of his points off of switches with Rob on him. Stockton wasn't guarding MM all that much, in fact Gray was guarding him quite a bit as was Meech. Stockton had several smart defensive plays and hustle plays causing turnovers. Give me a break.

if stockton wanst the slowest point guard in D1 hoops there would be no need to switch. its hard to get through a screen at 135 pounds

ezcure17
01-27-2011, 09:42 PM
The refs were the main problem tonight!! Also, KO and meech were BENCHED because they DESERVED TO BE!! KO with his dumb*ss foul on a guy who was going to dunk it anyways got HIS ass sat and Meech, just after the refs were going to call ANY kind of contact...he goes right in and gets a charge..

Stockton at least knows how to pass a basketball, unlike our others...and of course..northsidezag fan...of course you think you can justify him not playing because of just this game....pay no attention to our OTHER unfit guards all year...if fact, I bet you were cheering for st marys tonight, werent you...I bet you were

SteeleMan
01-27-2011, 09:45 PM
Remeber that run we made with Dower scoring all those points? Stockton had three assists to him. In fact every pass was from Stockton to him except one I believe. Guess who fed the post better than any other player on our team? Yep that would be Stockton.

This man does not lie.

The509sfinest
01-27-2011, 09:47 PM
like i said in other post. Dont disrepect fellow zag fans or zag players esspecially by calling them names. Remember recruits read this board and i bet player do to. We do not want them to see us like this. Remember we our Zag fans!!! Other programs behave like this not us!

SteeleMan
01-27-2011, 09:48 PM
Not a good game for baby stock tonight. Jacked up a terrible 3 late. Missed front end of a critical 1 and 1. Played out of control throughout. The way he got posted up underneath the basket midway through the second half was a bummer. You can't coach size.

My basketball sense tells me that was the way Few drew that play up. Didn't miss by much. Was his first miss all season at the line. Even Raivio missed a few at the line. Remember him?

This team is full of entitled players. The boys off the bench were the reason this game was even close at the end.

CaliforniaZaggin'
01-27-2011, 09:50 PM
Meech needs to play a lot of minutes against athletic point guards whom Stockton has trouble guarding and/or withstanding the defensive pressure they apply on him... but there aren't any guards like in the WCC. More Stockton and less Meech will help to take the pressure for perimeter scoring and ball distribution off of Steven.

JPtheBeasta
01-27-2011, 09:51 PM
These Stockton threads got old weeks ago. I think I could probably read one from a month ago and not know the difference. Of course, that is just one person's opinion and everyone is encouraged to trash on their player of choice for the sake of free speech, or catharsis, or whatnot.

Rio Runner
01-27-2011, 09:52 PM
This seems like an odd debate to have right now. Stockton is the better player. But tonight neither did much of anything.

maynard g krebs
01-27-2011, 09:52 PM
you dont need any basketball knowledge to see that stockton did absolutely nothing productive tonight

Congrats on most ironic post ever; sadly, I have the feeling that's not what you were going for.

Zags down 48-42 and about to be buried after 13-5 SMC run to start the half; go on 9-2 run when DS's passes right the ship.

You guys' opinion is not based on observable facts. I have no idea what it is based on.

WhitworthZAG
01-27-2011, 09:53 PM
I stand by my comments that this team is better with Stockton at the point. The three that he shot near the end of the game was a drawn up play out of the timeout so don't knock him for firing up a three. The time he got posted up on defense in the second half do you really think Goodson does any better.

Nevtelen
01-27-2011, 09:56 PM
Stockton was as good/better than Meech on D. That is the only area where Meech usually surpasses him. Beyond that it was ALLLLLL Stockton. No reason to play Meech in the 2nd half. I hate to say it, but Gray in the 1st half, and having no offense in the 2nd half, flat out lost it for us. We have nothing resembling decent guards.

Hoopaholic
01-27-2011, 09:58 PM
IF that was a designed play for a 3 point shot would it not have been statistically better to have Carter or MM coming off that screen to pump up the shot with 10 seconds left?

I am not sold that was the designed play, that early into the clock.....

CaliforniaZaggin'
01-27-2011, 10:00 PM
We have nothing resembling decent guards.

I agree, but I want to qualify it slightly. I think we have no elite lead guards. Gray is better off the ball. He's a Robin, not Batman.

Also, guards rule college basketball. It's better to have one great guard than two great post players. Without Mickey, the Gaels are a below average CBB team. With him, they're very, very good.

allnet59
01-27-2011, 10:05 PM
Meech got torched two times in a row in the last three minutes missed a wide open three and did exactly what to help win this game. Gray had some real dumb turnovers and the last foul u could see coming from a mile away.

Santangelo_for_3
01-27-2011, 10:10 PM
Let me just say this we are arguing about giving David Stockton more minutes, on this team I actually agree with that but...He's David Stockton, he's a waterboy at any other D 1 school who's trying to compete for a spot in the National Tourney. Look how we got beat tonight, by guards who can penetrate and create a shot for them selves or create a great shot for their teammates. Stockton does have vision and pretty decent at entry passes but still if that's who's running our team everyone else will need to step up big.

john montana
01-27-2011, 10:12 PM
Meech stunk up the joint tonight. Period. He played his usual crap offensive game and stifled the offense but he usually offsets that with great pressure d and by pushing the ball effectively. Tonight he got absolutely torched on defense. He was flat out bad.

hoopaddict
01-27-2011, 10:17 PM
Well, despite which side you are on regarding this point guard discussion, let me just say this, the point guard quality of play at GU has slipped significiantly over the last few years. Sorry, but neither one of the guys we have now are going to get it done long term.

Hoopaholic
01-27-2011, 10:17 PM
and led the team in assists

Baseline
01-27-2011, 10:31 PM
I don't have too much problem with the Meech and Stockton trade-offs. The both have pluses and minuses so a change of pace seems fine to me. I might lean towards more time for Stockton, he is doing very good for a red shirt walk on.

JPtheBeasta
01-27-2011, 10:32 PM
Meech stunk up the joint tonight. Period. He played his usual crap offensive game and stifled the offense but he usually offsets that with great pressure d and by pushing the ball effectively. Tonight he got absolutely torched on defense. He was flat out bad.

Ball screens neutralized Meech's speed all game. I thought they should have picked up at half court, harassed the guards, and forced SMC's bigs to set screens farther out when a)they would be more prone to offensive fouls and b)in worse position to be a threat on the pick and roll. GU allowed SMC to get into their sets all night without any duress. A little token full court pressure would have been nice as well. Passive, passive, defense has killed us lately.

Zag79
01-28-2011, 09:12 PM
this post is hilarious, and yes its like beating a dead horse. you would think david was dan dickau from how badly some of you think he should play more. lets start with "observations".


I have become more and more confident with Stockton handling the offense. He is a very good passer to the low post which is what this offense revolves around. He can also knock down the open shot which opens up the passing lanes to the middle.

he is a good passer, but does he really make that much of a difference? i mean in a way that dogging meech or acting like DS is really a replacement? meech had 4 assists, stockton 2. so in reality it wasnt any more effective. sure, stats dont tell the whole story but they played the same amount of minutes. so DS is better at getting the ball to the post, but doesnt do it enough since he only had TWO assists? now for shooting, he choked the 1 and 1 and missed two big threes. yes, meech was bad as well but this is about why DS is better than meech. and again, in the same amount of minutes DS scored 0 points. ZERO. meech had 1, and the in itself is bad but better than stockton. i just feel like im missing the substance of how DS is deserving of "more" minutes.


Remeber that run we made with Dower scoring all those points? Stockton had three assists to him. In fact every pass was from Stockton to him except one I believe. Guess who fed the post better than any other player on our team? Yep that would be Stockton.

he had 2 assists all game. dower had 9 straight points, and DS had two assists so every pass wasnt from david. only one shot sam made was from a pass that gave him a shot he didnt have to create on his own, so the "post feeding" theory isnt really valid. and i agree DS feeds the post very well, better than anyone. but it resulted in two less assists than meech, in 1 MORE minute of playing time. so to me that says your main reason for DS being more important really, well... isnt.


Speaking of Dower----He looked GREAT tonight

YES. why did he come out and never return? am i the only person who thinks you ride the hot hand until the wheels fall off?


More Stockton and less Meech will help to take the pressure for perimeter scoring and ball distribution off of Steven.

stockton shoots 43% from the floor. im pretty sure no one worries about him that much more than meech, as a matter of fact if you watch the game again you will notice they dont drop off meech any farther than david.


Zags down 48-42 and about to be buried after 13-5 SMC run to start the half; go on 9-2 run when DS's passes right the ship.

again, dower hit a three and some shots thanks to his own moves creating the shot. only one bucket was created by DS, more credit goes to sam than the phantom assists not showing up on the stats. and remember, +/- doesnt mean player X was the reason (or so stated when its meech who is in during good runs).


I don't have too much problem with the Meech and Stockton trade-offs. The both have pluses and minuses so a change of pace seems fine to me.

Bingo. both pg's have pros and cons, and the time was split evenly against st marys. meech had more assists, more points (yes, only 1 but for argument sake), so im still not sure where the substance for more DS comes from. enough back and forth for me, both help the team in ways and could improve in ways.


Ball screens neutralized Meech's speed all game. I thought they should have picked up at half court, harassed the guards, and forced SMC's bigs to set screens farther out when a)they would be more prone to offensive fouls and b)in worse position to be a threat on the pick and roll. GU allowed SMC to get into their sets all night without any duress. A little token full court pressure would have been nice as well. Passive, passive, defense has killed us lately.

greatest post in the thread, our defense is a joke once again. how about some on ball pressure coming up for the game winning shot? sure it was a tough shot with sacre in the way, but it was way too easy to get that close for a decent look.

jim77
01-29-2011, 02:26 AM
My 2 cents. "IF" the coach would play ROB, SAM,and Elias together then David S is you're man cause nobody on the team can feed the post as well. I like Meech..the guy plays his butt off but, hes more suited for More up tempo type ball and he's the better defender. In the WCC David has enough to get it done...and that is now who we need to beat to dance. I think Meech would be the better man against Memphis. Meech is gonna get minutes either way...I'd just like to come out and bury a team from the get go for a change. We let teams hang around too long and then they get confident..so confident that they clear the lane for freshmen 5 ppg guys to "take it to us".

1973Zag
01-29-2011, 06:12 AM
DS is a frosh and could(should) continue to improve. DG -What we see is what we get. DS is a true pg , DG is a superior Athlete. Although not ideal, DS is the better pg, which is what we need . Personally,I would have loved to see DG in a football uniform where he could have excelled . Just don't think he's a natural pg. Nothing personal to either athlete,just my observation.

jim77
01-29-2011, 03:44 PM
DS is a frosh and could(should) continue to improve. DG -What we see is what we get. DS is a true pg , DG is a superior Athlete. Although not ideal, DS is the better pg, which is what we need . Personally,I would have loved to see DG in a football uniform where he could have excelled . Just don't think he's a natural pg. Nothing personal to either athlete,just my observation.

Good post.

If we were up against a kalin Lucas I'd take Meech over Stock...its nice to have both. I also love Carter's patience....he was the reason for the turn around against Baylor.

EuroZag2010
01-29-2011, 03:50 PM
My dream line up with stocks, gray , dower, Sacre and manny =]

Bocco
01-29-2011, 06:58 PM
greatest post in the thread, our defense is a joke once again. how about some on ball pressure coming up for the game winning shot? sure it was a tough shot with sacre in the way, but it was way too easy to get that close for a decent look.

Now that's a question that belongs in the criticize the coach thread. Tie game 10.4 seconds left and St. Mary's is inbounding the ball. Why not full court pressure? Why not harass McConnell the moment he gets the ball?

fedwayzag
01-29-2011, 07:15 PM
Have to agree with some pressure bringing the ball up the court. Meech is fast enough to make McConnell turn a couple of times and it takes 2-3 seconds off the. Could have made them rush the shot a little and miss it. Hope next time we do put some pressure on the ball. The other thing I thought about and we could have done because meech subbed in it show man to man look and go into a zone. Obviously someone has to pick up McConnel but it would have really thrown SMC off.