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ZagDaddy
06-06-2007, 05:10 AM
I can't help but notice that several of the threads here lately have pertained to possible future recruits--sometimes about kids who won't be graduating until '09. There are also several websites devoted to rating and analyzing young "recruits."

I'm wondering if anyone else questions whether this is a good thing to do? Does our fascination with 15 and 16 year old basketball players send a negative message to these kids or other kids without athletic talent? What message is this sending to parents of teenage athletes? Where should the line be drawn?

I understand we are in the doldrums of the basketball season so there isn't much to discuss but the future, still I'm interested in hearing people's thoughts on this subject.

(Sorry, for the misleading subject line but how many of you opened this thread because of it?)

LongIslandZagFan
06-06-2007, 05:58 AM
I understand your point, but you have to keep in mind that ALL schools are recruiting kids from about their sophomore year on. An '09 recruit is heading into his junior year. Kids that are juniors in HS are already thinking about what colleges they plan to attend, take SAT/ACT exams etc... why should hoops be all that different.

Sarenyon
06-06-2007, 06:02 AM
ZD, the very first thing I thought when I read the title line was, what? were already looking at '10 guys. They're still babies...

I agree with your point. I really do not think anyone should be rated until the summer before their Junior year in HS at the earliest... but that would ruin the fun for many of the recruit fanatics out there.

But that's just my opinion, I don't think many here have the same.

Rubbadub
06-06-2007, 07:10 AM
Do you guys really think that GU's recruiting ability wouldn't be severly damaged if they didn't scout anyone younger than the 11th grade? Go play in a pickup game against a 5 star 15 or 16 year old and then tell me they're not worth GU's time yet. :)


Does our fascination with 15 and 16 year old basketball players send a negative message to these kids or other kids without athletic talent?

--when was the last time you heard about a non athletic 15 year old who was effected in any way bc college coaches weren't contacting him? That's just silly. If there was any message sent...i suppose it would be work harder at your basketball game? boo hoo? and for the inner city kids that've worked their butts off to be 5 star recruits, the message is, "congratulations, if you continue working your butt off, you will be able to provide for your family and live comfortably for the rest of your life."

ZagDaddy
06-06-2007, 07:40 AM
Rubbadub, I love your response. Thanks! :)

UberZagFan
06-06-2007, 07:52 AM
Uber was a highly recruited 5 star post padder entering his junior year in high school during the early days of the internet--back when Gore was just beginning to invent it--before the creation of what you now recognize as message boards. Much like the days before the three point line.

Uber thinks that a 16 year old who is old enough to drive, who is preparing for the SAT/ACT, who is mature enough to commit to the demands of school and a select team--practice everday and still make grades to attend a D1 school, then that student is mature enough to be considering what school to attend.

Uber thinks most high school kids that pick colleges during their soph and junior years are non-athletes.

p.s. Uber had a GU pennant on his room wall in elementary school. Is that too early?

p.p.s. The sig line info is not a joke. Neg rep all you wish. Thanks.

CDC84
06-06-2007, 08:25 AM
I can tell you that there are AAU events in this country that have 6th, 7th and 8th graders. Here's one:

http://www.adidasjrcamp.com/

However, there is almost zero presence of coaches at these events.

But these "young phenom" AAU events are attended by recruiting analysts who, like investigative reporters, want to "break the story" about the latest phenom before he/she becomes famous. Of course if you are trying to identify the next LeBron as a 6th grader, you run a good risk of falling flat on your face.

former1dog
06-06-2007, 08:38 AM
Nothing to add ZD, other than I think this is a great topic for discussion.


Thanks.

LongIslandZagFan
06-06-2007, 08:41 AM
Uber was a highly recruited 5 star post padder entering his junior year in high school during the early days of the internet--back when Gore was just beginning to invent it--before the creation of what you now recognize as message boards. Much like the days before the three point line.

Uber thinks that a 16 year old who is old enough to drive, who is preparing for the SAT/ACT, who is mature enough to commit to the demands of school and a select team--practice everday and still make grades to attend a D1 school, then that student is mature enough to be considering what school to attend.

Uber thinks most high school kids that pick colleges during their soph and junior years are non-athletes.

p.s. Uber had a GU pennant on his room wall in elementary school. Is that too early?

p.p.s. The sig line info is not a joke. Neg rep all you wish. Thanks.

LIZF thinks Uber just hijacked that thread for his own evil ;) purposes.

Uber's silliness aside, the recruits we have gotten that early (sophmore year) were kids who had no doubt in their minds as to where they wanted to play (Pendo and Osweiler). I know when I was in HS that by my sophomore year I was already thinking about college, and started applying to schools my Junior year... ironically, I knew I was going to GU (due to the fact that my mother taught there and my grades were good enough) but I chose to apply to other schools to see if I would be accepted.

There are some out there that start evaluating kids way earlier than HS but colleges on the whole merely observe at that point. They don't actively start to recruit kids until they are at least sophomores. I'd have to defer to CDC or the Pontiff in regards to whether that is a NCAA rule.

NJZag
06-06-2007, 08:46 AM
This time of year brings out fans mostly interested in recruiting, but I'm going to align with the camp that says there's been too much pushing down into the age groupings with the recruiting services' ranking system. Any attempt at numerical ranking before the senior year bothers me. Fall of senior year is when the final SAT is taken.

General classifications of High, Mid, Low less so, but numerical as some services attempt? It's total folly when even many ranking "experts" have gone on record as saying the concrete offers from hoops reputation schools sways their own final senior numbers.

It sends out some unhealthy messages in the general culture of even younger athletes, as there are actually seminars telling parents that if they don't think about "marketing" their kids for scholarships by the 9th grade, they will miss the boat. Choice of school. Choice of AAU team. Family relocations entirely based on a kid's sport. No offense intended to anyone, and maybe the true elites deserve that attention to what's done, but you have to ask yourselves about all the unreported others making choices like that for ultimately no valid reason.

Taking cues from things like a same-name website for O.J. Mayo since he was age 13 or 14, the growth of AAU team options, and fueled by external pressures from parents, there's been a big shift in the number of kids who pursue one sport year-round at early ages. The reported incidence of sports burn-out in teen athletes has been on the rise for at least a decade. A sport as "chore" or "job" -- no joy left in it. Total identity tied up in one thing.

As far as Zag recruiting, the battle with UCLA for Jordan Farmar who had been GU's early find and became Howland's late interest was my personal turning point of disgust with half of BRO seeming to flame the GU board. After that, the only truly interesting Zags pipeline was who signs an LOI, and the only "real" players the ones suiting up.

Given the chance to watch P-MAC at an event after he'd signed an LOI, it was fine to make a trip. The LOI was enough for an interest.

Despite a chance to go take a look at Jordan Theodore and get video for CDC or one of the mods better suited to talent evaluation to use to write up something, I never did. The reasons were pretty simple.

No LOI at Gonzaga.

A bunch of Big East and other schools reportedly crowding in on his recruitment.

Online video on his games and a good amount of local press already available from the Newark Star-Ledger and the Bergen Record.

My general sense on out-of-region recruits for GU or any other school is that if a player has an option closer to home with a team in a high-profile conference, and reasonable TV coverage, he's going to lean toward having local family and friends see most of his games in person. The "Zags are 100% on TV" argument can kick in, but is it really the same for someone age 18?

Maybe the question really is: Should it be?

Mine is no doubt a minority view this time of year. I'd still be personally comfortable with it as a minority of one.

BobZag
06-06-2007, 09:02 AM
Good points, ZD. When July comes, my hope is for more reports on the team we'll all be watching in a few months. All the new guys will be here.

UberZagFan
06-06-2007, 09:07 AM
LIZF thinks Uber just hijacked that thread for his own evil ;) purposes.

Never.



Uber's silliness aside, the recruits we have gotten that early (sophmore year) were kids who had no doubt in their minds as to where they wanted to play (Pendo and Osweiler). I know when I was in HS that by my sophomore year I was already thinking about college, and started applying to schools my Junior year

That was my point as well. I always thought of myself as having been born a Zag. I knew in 7th/8th grade for sure, as I have stated elsewhere (though I did apply to BC out of anger toward my parents for some stupid teenage reason). I see no problem with schools acknowledging what the kids already want like in Pendo and Osweiler's case and as for kids that are currently heading into their Junior year, that's not too young.




There are some out there that start evaluating kids way earlier than HS but colleges on the whole merely observe at that point. They don't actively start to recruit kids until they are at least sophomores. I'd have to defer to CDC or the Pontiff in regards to whether that is a NCAA rule.

The questioning should be one of active recruitment--you have to draw the line somewheres.



p.s. LIZF: Uber may need some mod assistance in the Foo. Some are plotting against him.

ZagNut08
06-06-2007, 09:43 AM
With many of the top level players playing on varsity teams they are far more visible than a "true" freshman playing on some freshman team. If they have the talent, there is no reason not to recruit them. I am sure there are plenty of players who would rather commit early and get the monkey off their back

CDC84
06-06-2007, 10:11 AM
The rules can be confusing as hell. The prospective student athlete (PSA) is one who has started classes for the 9th grade. You can also become a PSA prior to the 9th grade if you or your parents/guardian receive financial assistance that your school doesn't normally provide students.

Coaches are not allowed to have off campus, in-person contacts with PSA's before July 1 following the PSA's junior year in HS. Phone calls, text messaging, etc. are a different matter. I know the phone calls can start during a PSA's sophomore year. Also, there are different rules depending on whether the coach or the PSA is initiating the remote contact.

For more info:

https://goomer.ncaa.org/wdbctx/lsdbi/LSDBi.LSDBiPackage.SearchBylawsAndDisplayList?p_Di vision=1&p_Bylaw=13

Pontiff is probably the best around here at understanding the rules, regs and bylaws.

drnoe
06-06-2007, 10:34 AM
http://msn.foxsports.com/cbk/story/6876338

Akzag
06-06-2007, 10:36 AM
Sorry - don't have a link, but around this time last year, a story appeared about a kid in the DC area who was already being courted by shoe companies. He was in grade school.
The said company outfitted his entire pee-wee or rec team in their gear, in the hopes of building that brand loyalty early.

I consider that a far more heinous situation than the restricted and well- monitored (?) evaluations that college coaches have to make to ensure they get the best talent / fit for the years to come.

LynetteG
06-06-2007, 11:16 AM
Phone calls, text messaging, etc. are a different matter. I know the phone calls can start during a PSA's sophomore year.

PSA's can call all they want before the contact date. The contact date for phone calls to PSA's home is June 15th this year for '09 recruits, so right after finishing sophomore year. Text msging has been banned, at least I thought it just had been.

CDC84
06-06-2007, 11:37 AM
Has text messaging totally been banned, or is it just in a moratorium state until the NCAA can create further rules for it? The reason why it was causing problems is that coaches were using it work around the phone call limitations.

lothar98zag
06-06-2007, 11:43 AM
Soph's in HS can take the PSATs in the fall and based on the score they get on the test will start to receive "recruitment" info from colleges. I'm not sure how this is different than Soph hoops stars getting interest from colleges.


Of course the process of choosing a school by a hoops star is a bit more public and easier to follow by outsiders, so I can see why questions might be raised...

LynetteG
06-06-2007, 01:00 PM
Soph's in HS can take the PSATs in the fall and based on the score they get on the test will start to receive "recruitment" info from colleges.

PSAs do get recruitment letters before the time period when coaches can call home, but ALL correspondence/communication goes to the school counselor, or coach, etc, and is then forwarded to the PSA.

TheZagPhish
06-06-2007, 04:32 PM
I heard somewhere that Few had his eye on Pendo in the eighth grade. That right?

BobZag
06-06-2007, 05:03 PM
I heard somewhere that Few had his eye on Pendo in the eighth grade. That right?

If I recall, Fitz held a camp at Cheney or somewhere and raved about him and word got out, and Pendo attended a GU camp (maybe a team camp with Brewster) after that. Something like that.

MickMick
06-06-2007, 05:08 PM
Wasn't Morrison a ball boy for the Zags? If true, the coaching staff was looking at him at a very young age. And as far as a player getting ranked by virtue of who is recruiting him, Morrison may be the poster child for that argument. Wasn't he the 250th ranked player coming out of high school? No one knew who he was except Gonzaga.

Back to the ball boy thing.....was he the best kept secret in Northwest hoops history? And a further question: did he play AAU ball? I heard his pickup games against Spokane area atheletes (including Zags) were legendary.