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Section 116
01-23-2011, 06:28 PM
On tonights Mark Few show Few and Heister had an interesting discussion regarding the two bay area losses and calls involving Sacre at pivotal moments in each of those games. In the Santa Clara game two players had Rob tied up as he secured the rebound and subsequently a tie up was called and the ball was awarded to Santa Clara. No doubt recalling the call in the Santa Clara game, in the USF game, Rob "chinned" the rebound as Few noted rebouders are taught starting at about the second grade. Few noted the referees clearly had no option but to call a foul as Rob did indeed make contact with his elbow and the USF player went to the floor, probably not as a direct result of the contact, but more of an act, or flop (my interpretation)!. Few noted when the rule regarding contact such as Rob's was instituted this season he knew it was going to be trouble. He wonders now if they will have to teach to "turtle" the rebound which is essentially bringing the ball down to the waist area and locking elbows and arms around the ball. Few also noted in the USF incident Sacre clearly pivoted his entire body as opposed to just "swinging" elbows intentionally. Also of note there were 53 fouls called on Gonzaga the past two games, more than have even been called against the Zags in a two game set according to the show. Few noted the team was going to have to adapt to the way the game is called in the WCC which is vastly different than the national games Gonzaga has played this year. I have tried to make this as clear as possible and I believe the facts are all correct. My note taking sometimes doens't keep up with the talking. The show is available I believe on Fox sports Tuesday evenings as well as SWX in Spokane I believe Monday evening at 7pm. If you have the opportunity you may wish to watch to see if I have my facts straight.

MickMick
01-23-2011, 06:56 PM
To get some objectivity.

I'm looking forward to how BYU fans react to WCC officiating.

One of two things are going to happen:

A) They don't even notice the difference from the MWC.

B) They notice a difference in the quality of officiating.

I have a hunch they won't care much for the great "equalizers", but we will see in a year. Perhaps they will use their influence to improve the situation for the conference.

Section 116
01-23-2011, 07:36 PM
Davyzag, I don't disagree with your research on the number of fouls called in the Zags games across the country. I am going to stand by my quote of Mark Few's regarding the "way" the games are called. I'm certain I got that one right.

roxdoc
01-23-2011, 07:49 PM
It isn't always just a numbers thing - its the time the foul is called during the game. Critical calls that affect the game flow at critical times - ie the Rob call/intentional and the terrible and 1 where the foul was called several steps and dribbles prior to the shot. We could have had only 15 fouls and the refs would have still controlled the outcome of the game in the closing seconds. In the big leagues of officiating they try not to do that.

Off course none of that really matters because we, on our own, had put ourselves into the position to be abused.

pargo4prez
01-23-2011, 07:54 PM
I agree with Mark Few. I used to play the post position in high school and you are taight to bring the ball down to chin level and pivot with your entire body to get out of the defenders. I understand why the call was made, the guy got hit in the face, but if the guy that got hit were a 7 footer just like rob he would have been hit somewhere near the shoulder, not the face. It's not okay to penalize Sacre because he's so tall.

Demetri Awesome
01-23-2011, 07:56 PM
Fair enough. But I think Few is frustrated and grasping for answers a bit.

Consider this... this is the number of fouls called against these teams when they played Gonzaga:

Kansas State - 23
San Diego State - 24
Washington State - 21
Baylor - 24
Xavier - 27
Oklahoma State - 22

That's a lot of fouls for all those teams too. I'm just not as easily convinced that games are somehow called differently in the WCC, no matter what Few says.


I think the thing you must keep in mind is the physicality of the foul calling. I feel like our team is bigger and more physical then the entire WCC. Every time we start using these strengths we get called for a foul. It seems like Harris gets called all the time for backing a player down, in most conferences they wouldn't call it. As a team we can never really get in a rhythm, players start playing paranoid. I truly believe the WCC referees suck period. We should be dominating these teams, but the ref's never let the game play out.

NEC26
01-23-2011, 08:04 PM
Those sucky WCC refs you speak of called 14 fouls on Gonzaga against Portland, and the Zags shot 24 free throws compared to eight for Portland.

In the Pepperdine game, they called 12 (!) fouls on the Waves and 16 on the Zags.

The box scores are freely available at GoZags.com. Really, you should check them out.

You can make all the assumptions you want about WCC refs that you want, but sometimes those pesky facts get in the way...
Actually you are making the same point. Home teams in this league get way more foul calls. Kinda like the Pac 10 actually. Who by the way are usually the same refs.
The Zags lost this game but the refs were not good.

Section 116
01-23-2011, 08:20 PM
I didn't intend for this to get into a discussion about the refereeing in the WCC. That being said, however, I don't think there is a college basketball fan who would not argue the game is called differently in the Big East, for instance, than it is in the WCC and that I believe is the point Few was making!

NEC26
01-23-2011, 08:22 PM
To go along with what you are saying Davy Zag why act like the WCC refs don't get pretty tick tack sometimes? That was what Few was talking about.
I think its pretty common knowledge that in the Big East especially they ref their games a lot different. Personally I don't like hack fests like that so the trouble is finding the balance, its a hard job.
Few was frustrated with the reffing I can understand that.

NEC26
01-23-2011, 08:31 PM
Oh they absolutely do get ticky-tack sometimes.

But sometimes is the key word. Not always. I've seen plenty of WCC games where guys are getting mugged left and right and there are no calls.

I'm sure the same is true in every conference - some games turn in to foul fests, others they let the players go feral out there.

THAT is my main point - I think it's inaccurate to say WCC games are always ticky-tack and call things way more tight. Sometimes? Sure. But always? No way.

It's like that at every level of basketball, from 3rd grade CYO to the NBA.

For the most part I would agree. However, WCC definitely trends toward ticky tack, but all games are called differently obviously.
Bottom line is the Zags still could have and probably should have beat USF but they didn't make their free throws and thats on the Zags not the refs.

eastsideballer
01-23-2011, 08:38 PM
I understand the reasoning for the call, I realize that it is a point of emphasis this year and I also realize that the NCAA will have to address, or rather refine the rule after this season as it has in a number of games led to quite a controversy.

With that said I want to say that I have the game on DVR, have watched the Sacre foul more than a few times and totally agree with the call, in fact I would agree with the call even if it wasnt a point of emphasis this season.

Sacre flat out swung at the defender, did NOT pivot (wonder what film Few was watching with that comment) and deserved the call. If Rob had pivoted then I would have a totally different reaction to this, but according to the film he didnt, it was just a swipe/swing. I realize this isnt the most popular opinion but thats ok, it wont be the last I ever have :)

ronh_pm
01-23-2011, 08:42 PM
Would be interesting if it were true. Unfortunately, here is the total number of fouls called against the Zags against:

Notre Dame - 27
Baylor - 25
Wake Forest - 25

Some games have a lot of fouls called, some don't. The Santa Clara and San Francisco games had a lot of fouls called (remember, both those teams where whistled for a combined 44 fouls too). But to say that it's a WCC vs. "national" thing is not accurate at all.

Actually the Zags have been called for over 20 fouls eight times, five times on the road....three at home for 21(SOU) XU (21) and 22 (LMU)....

@ Notre Dame 27
@ Baylor 25
@ Wake Forest 25
@ SCU 26
@ SFU 27


The numbers say Zags do not get love on the road with Marquette (neutral) and WSU (non-show) the only times on the road they were under 20.

I'm not going to blame the refs...I do enough of that at my son's games, but numbers are what they are and everyone can draw thier own conclusions.

Saxon_zag
01-23-2011, 09:34 PM
I understand the reasoning for the call, I realize that it is a point of emphasis this year and I also realize that the NCAA will have to address, or rather refine the rule after this season as it has in a number of games led to quite a controversy.

With that said I want to say that I have the game on DVR, have watched the Sacre foul more than a few times and totally agree with the call, in fact I would agree with the call even if it wasnt a point of emphasis this season.

Sacre flat out swung at the defender, did NOT pivot (wonder what film Few was watching with that comment) and deserved the call. If Rob had pivoted then I would have a totally different reaction to this, but according to the film he didnt, it was just a swipe/swing. I realize this isnt the most popular opinion but thats ok, it wont be the last I ever have :)

He did pivot because it showed the tape when Few mentioned that and he was turning his body after lifting his pivot foot. If you would agree that call and think that is a good rule then you enjoy some WUSSY basketball. What rights does the rebounder have then? He just has to sit their and get harassed? The rule is an absolute disgrace to college basketball and I knew that before it cost my zags a game.


Anyone that thinks the officiating was fine this weekend should probably sign on to be a WCC official because you would fit right in.

Saxon_zag
01-23-2011, 09:35 PM
Would be interesting if it were true. Unfortunately, here is the total number of fouls called against the Zags against:

Notre Dame - 27
Baylor - 25
Wake Forest - 25

Some games have a lot of fouls called, some don't. The Santa Clara and San Francisco games had a lot of fouls called (remember, both those teams where whistled for a combined 44 fouls too). But to say that it's a WCC vs. "national" thing is not accurate at all.

Actually that's exactly what it is and any fan (I would hope) would be able to see the contrast in watching the ooc games compared to the WCC games this year.

zagray
01-23-2011, 11:16 PM
The Zags ave 21 fouls a game in the WCC currently number #1. They ave 26.5 fouls a game on the road in the WCC, and their defense is giving up over 50 percent from the floor. They ave more fouls in league while playing less aggressive defense. Out of league the teams are allowed to play more physical, sure fouls are called, almost 20 per team a game, but you earn em and the shooting percentages reflected that ! If the Zags play that physical in the WCC all the starters would foul out. The more aggressive your allowed to play the better defense you can play. If you take out the physical play out of the game you level the playing field. That is exactly what is happening and the Zags need to adjust SOMEHOW. The Zags just didn't forget how to play the defense it takes to hold teams under 40 per from the field! Few is right on the money!

ZagsGoZags
01-24-2011, 01:25 AM
IMHO as an observer over the years is that the WCC refs call games tighter than the BCS schools.
Comparing the number of fouls called in a game is not a sufficient measure, because players and coaches adjust, so a game with fewer total fouls called could have still been called tighter, just that the players backed way off. I think that happened with our game against SMC and loyola

scott257
01-24-2011, 04:48 AM
Personally I think the refs in the conference are worthless. I saw two fouls called against the Zags where no - and I mean no - contact was made. While I have the advantage of my DVR where I can view replays at will, the reason I replayed them is that I saw no contact on the initial play - and backing things up to watch again verified this.

On another note - if that player was hit so hard that he was knocked unconcious, as he was pretending to be, then why was he allowed to stay in the game. As much attention has been paid to head injuries in sports, even if the coach wanted to keep the player in the game, the refs should not allow it.

My wife (who is not as ardent a fan as I) was watching the game with me and wondered if the refs have been instructed to give the edge to the opponents when playing Gonzaga as while Gonzaga would get whistled for a foul on one end of the court, similar contact on the part of San Francisco was not being whistled.

Finally - what is with all of the stupid mental errors on defense by the Zags? If they don't know it, they wear targets on their backs and mediocre players have great games against them. Too many times players were left open for threes because the defense sagged in and left them open to take the shot. This should never happen.

scrooner
01-24-2011, 06:24 AM
I think this says it all:

http://www.wccsports.com/genrel/libbey_dave00.html

johno
01-24-2011, 09:02 AM
Scroll down the page on this site and you'll see that the average amount of fouls called in an NCAA game is just over 37. Against SCU 49 fouls, against USF 48 fouls (according to Yahoo sports). Clearly the WCC refs are whistle happy.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/referees

U Zig, I Zag
01-24-2011, 09:18 AM
The Zags came out of the gate a little sluggish on Thurs and had opportunities but to play 'our' type of game requires some consistent calling. Rob just get draped over down there and it's rarely called, maybe a byproduct of being twice as big as everyone else. Thursday was a poor showing, mostly on the Zags.

Saturday, however, was a complete joke in regards to the ref'n. The mystery fouls (we are talking zero contact folks, then continuation and a FT) and the no calls were disheartening. The Rob elbow foul was a good call. That's the rules this year. Two caveats to that though: he wasn't cradling (aka, no chance to get a jump ball) and for 2 seconds he had to deal with them on him. That point in a game: Call the foul on the defense. Rob should have just held his ground... but he prob realized from Thurs and how the game was going that he better 'get that board'. The call was right, but they could have called the grabbing BEFORE the elbow.

The 'game winner' was a complete joke:
Blocking: sure - stop the play there, no shot.
Shot: fine, whistle was late, ref held it. CONTINUE to hold it and let them have the hoop.
Shot +1: you have to be ####ing kidding me.

I feel bad for the kids. Sure the defense wasn't great, but they should get a fairer game than they have gotten. I don't know where their head's are at but I hope their spirits are up.

Plow through the rest of the league, Zags. That's your strength, keep at it - play your game and Few better keep on those refs all game long.

BYU is coming to town next year and they won't stand for this nitpicky fouling crap.

DixieZag
01-24-2011, 10:38 AM
The USF game solidified my opinion that the Conference is tired of the GU dominance and the benefit of the doubt is going to be given the Zag's opponent in every case. It doesn't have to be a clear statement of policy, it could be as a "wink" - "some teams play an OOC schedule where games are basically WWF wrestling, we are not going to tolerate that, the WCC is a "skill league" and should be officiated to highlight the skills, not just bigger/faster." - - The message would ring completely true.

I give as evidence; in OT USF HELD THE BALL for 32 seconds on THREE possessions in a TIED game, they did this after a possession where they worked their normal offense which was completely shut down 'cept for a fading three point attempt over an outstretched hand at 01 of the shot clock that banked off the glass from the baseline and went in. To hold the ball that long says "we cannot score with these guys, we have to run time, knowing that we will get bailed out on any drive."

The announcers were completely perplexed. But knowing their bread was buttered by the WCC, they did not show replays of Steven's foul (one) over and over, or the ultimate bail called when the player started to be guarded at the elbow - but was somehow allowed to continue down the lane - unabated now and scoop a little uncontested hook. Just ridiculous.

Lastly, Rob was clearly fouled by the guy who got the elbow a second later, the guy went to grab at the ball and got nothing but arms - and Rob was not going to keep the ball still - he was stupid to put his big elbows out to lead - but none of that would have occurred had the foul been called on the guy who bum-rushed him.

YES, had we made FTs we would have won, but USF would not have had the chance to win w/o being bailed out. Period.

ZagMan
01-24-2011, 03:43 PM
My question would be, given that the refs called a bad game, why does this benefit the other team. Wouldn't the teams be affected equally? Maybe this was answered already by saying that Gonzaga plays more physically, or that the fouls weren't called equally. But, I watched the game and it seemed to me they were called at least fairly equally bad on both teams.

pargo4prez
01-24-2011, 04:33 PM
My question would be, given that the refs called a bad game, why does this benefit the other team. Wouldn't the teams be affected equally? Maybe this was answered already by saying that Gonzaga plays more physically, or that the fouls weren't called equally. But, I watched the game and it seemed to me they were called at least fairly equally bad on both teams.

I wasn't paying much attention to the foul ration during the USF game (too exciting), but I know at one point during the SCU game the fould ratio was Gonzaga 15 and SCU 6. So to me this doesn't seem like the fouls are being called equally.

bballbeachbum
01-24-2011, 05:14 PM
I wasn't paying much attention to the foul ration during the USF game (too exciting), but I know at one point during the SCU game the fould ratio was Gonzaga 15 and SCU 6. So to me this doesn't seem like the fouls are being called equally.

USF 32-27 GU, FTs attempted, but looking deeper

Steven's last 2 were because USF fouled on purpose; also there were 4FTs from bench techs, right? that makes the numbers, from the run of play

USF 32-GU 21 FTs attempted (if my calcs are right)

make of that what you will; I agree with zagray

and yes, GU still was in a position to win, but couldn't pull it off, so the mirror, as usual, is still a good place to begin when looking for answers to overcoming this evolving sea in which GU is currently navigating

GO ZAGS!!!

madness
01-25-2011, 09:28 AM
I think this says it all:

http://www.wccsports.com/genrel/libbey_dave00.html

This, +1

EuroZag2010
01-25-2011, 11:44 AM
"The experts" on ESPNU touches up on the rebounding the ball with the elbows out and said officials are on edge so they call alot of fouls. Also mentioned Rob's foul which changed the game. They also said that back ib the day that's how it's done Now defenders can flop.

bigblahla
01-25-2011, 01:11 PM
Thought I'd drop him a line on the subject.

Thanks for your email.

We have great confidence in the leadership of all of our officiating programs in the West Coast Conference and take great pride in our dedication to properly administering the NCAA rules in all WCC contests.

Take care,
Jamie

Lol. :D

Go!! Zags!!!

LynetteG
01-25-2011, 03:37 PM
As I mentioned at the start of WCC play...

...let the neutering begin!