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kingzag
01-22-2011, 10:01 PM
David Stockton did more positive things in his measly 12 minutes than any starter did for the full game. His 5 assists was a team high in his limited minutes. Why did Few have him on the floor when he knew we had to give an intentional foul near the end of regulation. Should have subbed in Hart to give the foul. We could have used Stockon in OT.

thespywhozaggedme
01-22-2011, 10:06 PM
David Stockton did more positive things in his measly 12 minutes than any starter did for the full game. His 5 assists was a team high in his limited minutes. Why did Few have him on the floor when he knew we had to give an intentional foul near the end of regulation. Should have subbed in Hart to give the foul. We could have used Stockon in OT.

Good point, you could see that David knew that if he committed the foul, he was out of the game and was so reluctant to do it, hoping another player would run over, but none did. As I stated in my now infamous Wake Forest game recap, DS is far and away the best point guard, emphasis on the words point and guard, on the team; that look-away bullet pass to a cutting Elias was a thing of beauty.

Birddog
01-22-2011, 11:22 PM
Why did Few have him on the floor when he knew we had to give an intentional foul near the end of regulation
Yepper, the staff screwed the pooch on that one.

ZagsObserver
01-22-2011, 11:36 PM
Stockton is the only true point guard on the team. The issue with Goodson, and this is true regardless of whether he has a career game and scores 20+/game, is that he simply cannot run an offense. The team will never be good unless someone at the helm can make everyone else better. Stockton makes everyone around him better, and is best suited for the pg position. His poise led GU back in the game once again. Next year Gonzaga will be significantly better even if most of the same cast of players is present, as it all boils down the point guard. I do have to give Goodson major props for working hard today and doing 100% with what he has to work with - especially the 3 at the end of regulation.

bigblahla
01-23-2011, 10:10 AM
David Stockton has proved on the court he deserves all the PT he is getting and I expect him to get more.

Go!! Zags!!!

gamagin
01-23-2011, 10:30 AM
David Stockton has proved on the court he deserves all the PT he is getting and I expect him to get more.

Go!! Zags!!!

both Stock and Meech are picking up their games. The timing couldn't be better nor more timely as the avenues left open get narrower. I wish those who have been blinded by what they don't like about Meech could learn to appreciate his many contributions. I'd go in to them but it would lead where I don't like to go.

Suffice it to say Stock has alot to learn and Meech is working on his weaknesses and I couldn't be happier for both. It is greatly benefitting the team. And in the last game each had his chance to keep us in the game, and both stepped up.

Had everyone else been able to summon that kind of focus and execution when the occasion called for it, we would have won.

To be continued.

cggonzaga
01-23-2011, 10:54 AM
The funniest thing about the Stockton posts is that people act like Few is refusing to play the "best point guard". Clearly he and the rest of the coaching staff recognizes what Stockton does and does not bring to the table. If he (Stockton) was so perfect like many of you believe he is he would be getting many more minutes. There's clearly things we aren't seeing behind the scenes that only the staff would recognize. If he was so much better than Meech he would be getting those minutes. I don't believe Few and staff are sabotaging their own success.

Ezag
01-23-2011, 11:25 AM
The funniest thing about the Stockton posts is that people act like Few is refusing to play the "best point guard". Clearly he and the rest of the coaching staff recognizes what Stockton does and does not bring to the table. If he (Stockton) was so perfect like many of you believe he is he would be getting many more minutes. There's clearly things we aren't seeing behind the scenes that only the staff would recognize. If he was so much better than Meech he would be getting those minutes. I don't believe Few and staff are sabotaging their own success.

Sometimes what you see behind the scenes and what actually happens in a game situation are 2 different things. Obviously, Dower was highly praised for things the coaches saw in practice, but that hasn't necessarily translated to real game situations. Stockton, whether he performs well in practice or not, clearly has the confidence to do positive things on the court.

CDC84
01-23-2011, 11:39 AM
100% agree that it was a goof on the staff's part. Keita or someone should've been put in there for Stockton to deliver the foul.

jazzdelmar
01-23-2011, 11:43 AM
However well S and M are playing, mercifully we won't mention Carter, how do you feel they stack up vs the guard corps of other WCC teams?

bigblahla
01-23-2011, 11:55 AM
However well S and M are playing, mercifully we won't mention Carter, how do you feel they stack up vs the guard corps of other WCC teams?

I used to think we were third but I can't justify it my own mind anymore. I can't put us above Williams and Doolin after what I saw last night. Foster and his running mate get the edge. Delly and the Mick and we didn't see the best of LMU but I believe they may be better when VT is all the way back.

We have been out-recruited at the position we became known for. There's no joy in at Guard U today.

Just my opinion.

Go!! Zags!!!

cggonzaga
01-23-2011, 11:56 AM
Sometimes what you see behind the scenes and what actually happens in a game situation are 2 different things. Obviously, Dower was highly praised for things the coaches saw in practice, but that hasn't necessarily translated to real game situations. Stockton, whether he performs well in practice or not, clearly has the confidence to do positive things on the court.


I'm not talking about practice Ezag. I've actually heard David practices very well. While we the public see the great pass David makes there may be 2-3 passes he didn't make. Maybe we can't run certain sets with David in the game. The point being we don't know what the coaches want and again if he was so much better than Meech he would get those minutes. I think David has been very good at times this season and those moments were recognized with more playing time. As a coach myself, I hate getting comments about my team when people don't know what we're trying to get accomplished as a team.

Jazz, I think our point guards are WCC level. The problem with that is we are used to our points being National level. On a positive note however I believe we have National level points on the way.

gamagin
01-23-2011, 12:03 PM
However well S and M are playing, mercifully we won't mention Carter, how do you feel they stack up vs the guard corps of other WCC teams?

and tell us ?

bigblahla
01-23-2011, 12:06 PM
I'm not talking about practice Ezag. I've actually heard David practices very well. While we the public see the great pass David makes there may be 2-3 passes he didn't make. Maybe we can't run certain sets with David in the game.

Well coach what passes were those and who else on the team right now could make them?

Unfortunately Coach Few will always play his junior pg over his freshman walk-on pg because he can't help himself it's how he coaches his track record says so. I'm not finding fault with it it's just the way it is.

I want Meech to succeed always he's a Zag through and though and gives it his all, he does the best that he can. I haven't seen him quit in a game but David is a point guard and facilitator and regardless of the great game Meech had that was an aberration to his normal game and David just keeps showing more.

There is a place for both but the half court offense flows better when David is on the court and please no more nonsense about his defense.

Just my opinion.

Go!! zags!!!

NEC26
01-23-2011, 12:10 PM
I'm pretty sure the only reason David didn't get more minutes was cause he picked up that fourth foul last night. Same reason Meech came out in the first when he got his second foul after having what I thought was one of his best halves of basketball as a Zag.
By the way it was awesome to see him step up and nail that 3 at the end there! I hope his confidence can continue to build. Not sure why the start of the second we suddenly stalled again and it looked like Meech did not want to shoot after doing so well.

Zag 77
01-23-2011, 12:11 PM
If it had not been for that elbowing foul on Sacre we might well be talking today about the gutsy 3 pointer DS hit to give us the lead.

bballbeachbum
01-23-2011, 12:15 PM
However well S and M are playing, mercifully we won't mention Carter, how do you feel they stack up vs the guard corps of other WCC teams?

the 2 combine for a great performance, so of course this is the logical direction for GU fans to take the discussion.

bigblahla
01-23-2011, 12:16 PM
If it had not been for that elbowing foul on Sacre we might well be talking today about the gutsy 3 pointer DS hit to give us the lead.

Meech was a hero too. Without him in the first half we would have been sucking lemons.

Our guys played hard we lost it at the foul line, time for the making of Gaels Gone Mild.

Go!! Zags!!!

cggonzaga
01-23-2011, 12:23 PM
Well coach what passes were those and who else on the team right now could make them?



How would I know? The point being Blah is that we don't know what the coaching staff is asking the players to do. Again, he might make a great pass on one play but maybe he's missing opportunities on two other possessions.

Mark Few hasn't won 80% of his games because he holds grudges or plays his upperclassmen no matter what. Ask Blake Stepp, Derek Raivio, Matt Bouldin or Jeremy Pargo if you want to talk about his "track record".

bigblahla
01-23-2011, 12:36 PM
How would I know? The point being Blah is that we don't know what the coaching staff is asking the players to do. Again, he might make a great pass on one play but maybe he's missing opportunities on two other possessions.

Mark Few hasn't won 80% of his games because he holds grudges or plays his upperclassmen no matter what. Ask Blake Stepp, Derek Raivio, Matt Bouldin or Jeremy Pargo if you want to talk about his "track record".

We're not arguing but we are watching the same game and I watch each one at least twice and Stocks isn't missing passes compared to the other ball handlers.

He's fun to watch off the ball he's a sneaky dirty little gym rat and I'm jacked we get him for three more years. I can definitely see him feeding GBJ for three.

As I stated above we have been out-recruited at the guard position and all those names you listed above are part of the reason. I firmly believe every coach in this league recruits to beat GU so guards were at the top of their list and evidently they have been successful.

Gnash the Gaels.

Go!! Zags!!!

Hoopaholic
01-23-2011, 12:42 PM
he is a great role player, providing valuable minutes for this years team.

His shortcomings are obvious and get exploited (cant recall last time a player FOULED OUT in 12 minutes of play can anyone else?)

Coaching staff knows and understands this and provides his playing time in segments that highlights his assets and tries to minimize the deficiencies

Patterned substitution has become evident and if you notice DS is never inserted alone in the game and rarely is on the court with 4 starters.

I suspect if you compared his stats to other guards in our programs Freshman years they are very similar in stats across the board

ZagsObserver
01-23-2011, 12:58 PM
Meech is just a role player too, but happens to be thrown into the starting lineup. DS happens to be a better "role player," and the fact that a walk-on freshman is being inserted on the offensive end at every dead ball at the end of a game shows you that Few has more faith in Stockton to lead the team than Meech on offense, even on a day where Meech was having a career game.

I love Meech, but for those of you who like to demean the value of Stockton, I will continue to press this view.

bigblahla
01-23-2011, 01:00 PM
he is a great role player, providing valuable minutes for this years team.

His shortcomings are obvious and get exploited (cant recall last time a player FOULED OUT in 12 minutes of play can anyone else?)

Agree on the role player but please point out the obvious as I don't see it.

Size? Does anybody remember seeing David switched off on Blackwell in the post putting all 140lbs on him until he could switch back. No basket.

Everybody gets beat at times but he is not the major defensive liability some on this board make him out to be.

Go back and look at his five fouls, No. 5 doesn't count boneheaded mistake by the bench.

Number 4 if I remember correctly was stopping Blackwell from a layup after an offensive rebound and could have been a jump ball call.

Anybody else help out. I remember the first or second were questionable. Did he give up an and 1?

Stockton is the best point guard we have not the most athletic but the best.

Everybody is needed but when we get into half court offense David needs to be on the court.

Just my opinion.

Go!! Zags!!!

Hoopaholic
01-23-2011, 01:04 PM
Never demeaned the value of any player, just not in the cards for me.


Interesting take on "role player" ...30 minutes of playing time is not a role player in my book

NEC26
01-23-2011, 01:05 PM
This was the first game he got into foul trouble so quickly and part of it had to do with a reffing crew that really liked to blow whistles. Honestly, this can't play defense stuff is not playing out on the court from what I have seen. At first teams immediately tried to single him out but this was not effective(not even in the Xavier game some like to use for an example). Now teams really aren't trying to isolate him any more and the Zags defense as a whole has been as good if not better with him in.

Hoopaholic
01-23-2011, 01:16 PM
No it is NOT the first time he has had foul trouble in limited minutes.

I have a hard time understanding how AROP played almost twice the minutes, drew the toughest defensive assignment most of the minutes and didnt end up with 5 fouls....think he played with the same set of ref's

Role players are just that because they provide inconsistencies in their play....

IE zero assists one game and 5 assists the next

NEC26
01-23-2011, 01:26 PM
You say he isn't consistent but what has been consistent every time he comes on the floor?
THE ZAGS MAKE A RUN. IE they play better.
Few has obviously taken note of it as well as he was trying to get him in there without him fouling out IE the subbing that was going on with him and Meech at the end of the game.
If he is just a role player he's not coming in the game at the end like that. Unfortunately he picked up too many fouls.
I am not saying Meech doesn't have value or doesn't bring anything to the table he does. I just think him and Gray together making up our guards isn't the best match for this team. Some players despite not being world beaters make a team as a whole better. Stockton does that.

bballbeachbum
01-23-2011, 01:29 PM
I love Meech.

:lmao:

oh come on, man. made me spew my coffee.

Hoopaholic
01-23-2011, 01:37 PM
he has provided sparks during several games, thus a great role player. But that does not occur EVERY time he has stepped on the court as you allege. But EVEN if it DID, that is the purpose of a great role player to provide a spark (be it offensively or defensively)



I find it a little bit comical that every point comes out as if DS is the only one who makes the offense moves and scores points....our team is in the top 50 for scoring, top 30 for assists who is doing this the other 30 minutes DS is not on the court?

He provides sparks at critical time periods but to totally discount what the other players are contributing during the 3/4 of the games he is not on the court is what is frustrating

consistency is a key component of someone who starts or plays major minutes.

NEC26
01-23-2011, 01:41 PM
he has provided sparks during several games, thus a great role player. But that does not occur EVERY time he has stepped on the court as you allege. But EVEN if it DID, that is the purpose of a great role player to provide a spark (be it offensively or defensively)



I find it a little bit comical that every point comes out as if DS is the only one who makes the offense moves and scores points....our team is in the top 50 for scoring, top 30 for assists who is doing this the other 30 minutes DS is not on the court?

He provides sparks at critical time periods but to totally discount what the other players are contributing during the 3/4 of the games he is not on the court is what is frustrating

consistency is a key component of someone who starts or plays major minutes.
I have kept track of his+- numbers since the Xavier game and they have always been positive in every game even SCU. He comes in and we make a run every time. Thats consistent to me.
In fact many times he has come in when we were behind and he left with us in the lead.

bballbeachbum
01-23-2011, 01:45 PM
after he made that second three last night, I admit to jumping around and doing the Big Balls dance in his honor

Hoopaholic
01-23-2011, 01:55 PM
I jumped off the chair as well last night

NEC I beg to differ:

WF 2nd half inserted at the 12 mark we are up 52-44 Removed at the 10 mark and our lead slipped to 54-47

Inserted 7 minute mark with our lead at 62-53 removed at the 4 mark 62-55

PORTLAND; 2nd half inserted at the 14 minute mark 48-40 lead removed at the 7 minute mark 56-51 lead

Pepperdine: inserted 2nd half at 12 minute mark 66-47 lead removed at the 10 minute mark 68-52

Santa Clara: inserted at the 2 minute mark 34-34 tie ended up being BEHIND at half time 38-36

Same patterns existed in Kansas State , Marquette, Eastern, WSU and Xavier games.


Consistently inconsistent, has provided sparks but not EVERY time as you claim.

He is used in select moments to provide a change or a breather and it is nice to have a great role player available to the program.

NEC26
01-23-2011, 02:02 PM
I jumped off the chair as well last night

NEC I beg to differ:

WF 2nd half inserted at the 12 mark we are up 52-44 Removed at the 10 mark and our lead slipped to 54-47

Inserted 7 minute mark with our lead at 62-53 removed at the 4 mark 62-55

PORTLAND; 2nd half inserted at the 14 minute mark 48-40 lead removed at the 7 minute mark 56-51 lead

Pepperdine: inserted 2nd half at 12 minute mark 66-47 lead removed at the 10 minute mark 68-52

Santa Clara: inserted at the 2 minute mark 34-34 tie ended up being BEHIND at half time 38-36

Same patterns existed in Kansas State , Marquette, Eastern, WSU and Xavier games.


Consistently inconsistent, has provided sparks but not EVERY time as you claim.

He is used in select moments to provide a change or a breather and it is nice to have a great role player available to the program.
I admittedly missed the Wake game but I know for sure that pattern did not exist in the Xavier game like you claim. The Zags were +9 with David in. Also I have noticed when you chart the score you don't account for the fact that he is being inserted while fouls shots are being shot.
So he comes in and 2 points later he start playing.
I know when he comes in I write down the score and then when he leaves as well. His + minus has always been + for the games I have tracked.

ZagsObserver
01-23-2011, 02:10 PM
Untrue Hoopaholic. You've done this numerous times; you'll give these breakdowns, and almost EVERY time I rewatch the game and keep tabs, you are wrong. NEC - do not take the numbers as they are provided to you...do your own due diligence and rewatch the games if you care enough about the issue.

Also, rather than providing you with the game +/-, he provides data only for the stretches that support his view. Spin...

Hoopaholic
01-23-2011, 02:12 PM
hate to pop your bubble"I KNOW FOR SURE"

Xavier game he came in second half at the 17 minute mark we were up 34-30 he left at the 12 minute point and we were TIED at 38-38

These are FACTS not my wishes or desires your blanket statements simply are not accurate.

He has been inserted the great MAJORITY of the time when we had leads.

He provided an AWESOME spark in the OS game and a good spark in the WF game in which he came in with us behind. But to claim he has ALWAYS provided a spark for an offensive run is FALSE.

Runs opposing teams had with DS in game:

Eastern while playing they went on a 19-10 run against us
WSU they went on a 14-9 run against us and a 12-9 run against us
KS they went on a a 9-5 run against us and a 9-7 run against us
Marq they went on a 4-0 run against us
Xavier went on a 8-4 run against us
WF had two minor runs during the 4 minutes of playing time
Portland went on 11-8 run
Pepperdine went on 5-2 run
SC went on 4-2 run end first half

Hoopaholic
01-23-2011, 02:16 PM
Zagobserver feel free to refute any of the stats I provide as I get them from third party INDEPENDENT sources......you CLAIM you go back but several of my challenges to you with factual data you have not come back to provide me where I am wrong. Feel free to provide me where I am wrong.

I am simply refuting the statement that EVERYTIME DS steps on the court we end up in POSITIVE in scoring differential NOT TRUE

feel free to check your own against a THIRD PARTY statistics group and you will find that the plus minus is available for ALL to view.

I simply view them with out rose colored glasses.

statsheet.com provides all the plus minus as it pertains to SCORING diffferential and provides a THIRD party time period marking and scoring...it is all there in black and white and can be viewed.

NEC26
01-23-2011, 02:18 PM
Second half you are right but he was +10 in the first and + for the game.

Hoopaholic
01-23-2011, 02:19 PM
we were not discussing overall plus minus scoring differential.

We were discussing the statement that EVERYTIME DS is inserted we go on a positive scoring run

"he comes in and we make a run everytime" is what I was discussing as it is not accurate statement

Hoopaholic
01-23-2011, 02:20 PM
BINGO NEC 26...consistently inconsistent thus a GOOD ROLE PLAYER

ZagsObserver
01-23-2011, 02:22 PM
That's ridiculous...he played 17 minutes in the Xavier game, and yet you provide data for one 5 minute stretch...once again, it's hard to debate with someone who likes to spin.

ZagsObserver
01-23-2011, 02:24 PM
So if Gray, Sacre or Harris have one 5-minute stretch where the team is in the negative, does that make them a role player, even if the rest of the game they and the team were dynamite. That's seems to be your premise, and it's ridiculous.

Hoopaholic
01-23-2011, 02:29 PM
your missing the discussion point Zagobserver and your desire to attack is clouding your vision about the "discussion" occuring.

The "spin" was the statement that EVERYTIME DS steps on the court Zags went on a positive point differential scoring run.

I didnt state that someone else did.

I provide FACTS that statement was inaccurate and now you feel the need to attack me claiming I am spinning?


So yes the fact that he spent 5 minutes on the court and how the point differential occurs IS pertinent to discussion about the statement that WE ALWAYS go on a positive point run with DS on the court. That simply is not true.



My point is any player playing an average of 10 min a game is a role player. He role is to come in provide a spark, offense or defensive depending on what is needed at the time of insertion. DS has done this on occaision, but not everytime . You simply dont believe that so we can agree to disagree as it appears you feel is he is more than a ROLE player.

NEC26
01-23-2011, 02:33 PM
Hmm obviously I stated it a little strongly in my argument so I'll give you that. You state he isn't consistent I don't agree and I'm not even sure what he's not consistent in or what you are saying exactly.
Does the team play well with him in? Yes they do. Does he make our team cohesive on offense yes he does.
Not sure about that sight or how you can have a +-of 3.7 or4.6 so they must be adding stats in somehow. I know I do not have the same numbers at all as I strictly go by the score.

ZagsObserver
01-23-2011, 02:34 PM
Your argument, Hoopaholic, is that DS is inconsistent, and rather than take game +/-, you took small segments of certain games to prove your point. That is very unfair. It's also dishonest.

You are playing the semantics game. The argument is whether DS should start over Meech, or at least get more minutes. Your argument is that he is a role player due to his minutes. Well, obviously his minutes are less than Meech, as Meech is starting. The question is whether he should get more of Meech's minutes. Instead of arguing this point, you simply say that DS is role player due to his minutes...it's circular reasoning. All players other than the starters will simply be role players by that logic, and none should ever be considered for starting since they simply don't get enough minutes. They don't get enough minutes because they are inconsistent. This must be true because they aren't getting more minutes. You see, it's terrible logic.

Hoopaholic
01-23-2011, 02:42 PM
It is the perception that has some "wanting more" and the facts just are not there YET. I too see improvement and I too see exciting things coming from DS in the future. Where I draw the line is the carte blanc statements that appear to be clouded with emotion and desires.

By the way his stats are at or below what other PG's freshman years have been in Zag last 10 years or so and he has had the luxury of a red shirt year.

If he does this "cohesion" each time he steps on the court than we would not have other teams going on runs with him in as I pointed out. Thus for me the inconsistency.

Each time he has come in with our team having a lead..who provided that LEAD? the starters did.

He has been inserted into games with us behind in OS, WF and SC; with OS and WF the team turned the offensive issues around. SC we ended up still being behind when he was subbed out (came in 12-8 behind and left with us behind 20-19)

OS and WF he was pivotal and did provide exceptional spark to the team offensive cohesion.

Hoopaholic
01-23-2011, 02:55 PM
And you are the one who inserted the new arguement.

to get minutes you must provide CONSISTENCY. You earn it by play

Like it or not the starting guard is VERY consistent. you know you will get 5-7 points a game, you know you will get 3-4 assists a game, yhou know you will get 2-3 rebounds a game, you know you will get fouls generated by his pushing of the ball up tempo, you know you will get some easy buckets due to his push of the ball, you know you will get the ball handled against pressure, you know SG will not have to handle the rock bringing the ball up, you know he will not turn the ball over very often, you know you will have a 2 to 1 assist to turnover ratio, you know the team will be scoring more than 71 points every game, you know the team will be in the top 30 teams for assists nationwide and you know he will give you good solid defense....those are KNOWN as it has been demonstrated time and time.

You DONT know that about DS as he has not provided a consistent pattern of play. So in you book you want to throw out all the KNOWNS and go with an unknown..midseason no less...interesting perspective

You keep saying you want more offense....we score over 71 points a game. We have one of the best assist teams in the nation. What more (Specifics please not "seems smoother) do you want out of the team as it pertains to offensive production?

You just dont care for his style of play so we can agree to disagree and let the coaching staff work things out.

Zagregious
01-23-2011, 03:02 PM
This argument is diminishing because you seem to be mincing words Hoopaholic.

It seems to me the greater point to be made is that more often than not, Stockton's offering is more positive to team scoring and offensive flow, the +/- likely supports this game by game, and can be cherry picked to the positive or negative moment by moment. The San Fran game had to be in his favor over Meech, without knowing the actual numbers.

While Meech had a decent first half effort, we had little to no lead, and never even got Sacre to the line. Not his fault entirely, but Stockton seems to be more apt to look inside consistently. Totally being observational right now, so you can break me down with numbers if you like. As a RS Freshman, Stockton has some great years ahead of him, so I'll hang my hat on that.

I like Meech a lot, but think that games have dictated 3-4 times lately that Stockton be used more, and was not, to our detriment.

ZagsObserver
01-23-2011, 03:09 PM
Meech does the best with what he has, but it's not good enough for Gonzaga to go far. I like him as a person, I know that he always gives 100%, and I think he can situationally be a huge plus for Gonzaga. However, as the main pg, he "consistently" is unable to facilitate good offensive plays by making entry passes, creating good spacing, and making things happen. He does not make those around him better like Stockton. Stockton's plus/minus are better than Meech. That's all I have to say.

ronh_pm
01-23-2011, 03:21 PM
Why would anyone respond to a thread that opens "David Stockton did more positive things in his measly 12 minutes than any starter did for the full game"

You know it is troll bait.


Wait...I just responded.

bigblahla
01-23-2011, 03:23 PM
Meech does the best with what he has, but it's not good enough for Gonzaga to go far. I like him as a person, I know that he always gives 100%, and I think he can situationally be a huge plus for Gonzaga. However, as the main pg, he "consistently" is unable to facilitate good offensive plays by making entry passes, creating good spacing, and making things happen. He does not make those around him better like Stockton. Stockton's plus/minus are better than Meech. That's all I have to say.

We need everybody, really, we have to win each and every game from here on out.

Go!! Zags!!!

ZagLawGrad
01-23-2011, 03:42 PM
Meech does the best with what he has, but it's not good enough for Gonzaga to go far. I like him as a person, I know that he always gives 100%, and I think he can situationally be a huge plus for Gonzaga. However, as the main pg, he "consistently" is unable to facilitate good offensive plays by making entry passes, creating good spacing, and making things happen. He does not make those around him better like Stockton. Stockton's plus/minus are better than Meech. That's all I have to say.

I like Stockton in a limited role. I give him credit for showing some smarts to make up for a lack of size and athletic ability.

But he's not a better player than Meech at this point in his very young career. In particular, he lacks the speed and quickness of Meech that disrupts opponents on both ends of the court.

If you want to talk about Frosh PG's who are the real deal, I point you to Doolin last night and Dellavodava last season. DS has a long ways to go to get to that level of play.

maynard g krebs
01-23-2011, 06:06 PM
On multiple occasions, starting with Xavier, the Zags have been struggling offensively and in a close game approaching midway in the 1st half, in low scoring (to that point) games. David has come in and the team has gone on an offensive roll, repeatedly, getting a lead close to double digits. Everybody who's paying attention and acknowledging actual facts knows this. No point in arguing with those who wish to claim otherwise.

As to assist numbers, lots of times David makes the pass that leads to someone else's assist. He does this more than anyone else; not something I can prove but it seems obvious. Point is, he just about always makes the right pass; last nite was an unusual occasion where a lot of them led directly to scores. Using his assist #'s to assert inconsistency is just plain wrong IMO. I'd say he's the team's most consistent player in terms of making the right read and pass.

Zag 77
01-23-2011, 07:55 PM
Anybody want to go there?:eek:

Baseline
01-23-2011, 11:02 PM
I see improvements in Meech from the start of the year and I think David offers a nice change of pace and see that he is also progressing as a PG. We don't have the best by any means, but I think the combination should be good enough to win games.
To be honest, I'm more worried about Harris than M or D. He has a lot of turnovers and gets beat on defense way to often.

cjm720
01-24-2011, 01:26 PM
I see improvements in Meech from the start of the year and I think David offers a nice change of pace and see that he is also progressing as a PG. We don't have the best by any means, but I think the combination should be good enough to win games.
To be honest, I'm more worried about Harris than M or D. He has a lot of turnovers and gets beat on defense way to often.

+1

Bogozags
01-24-2011, 01:58 PM
However well S and M are playing, mercifully we won't mention Carter, how do you feel they stack up vs the guard corps of other WCC teams?

This may start some stuff but IF we had either freshman PG from SCU or USF, I believe we might well have only two loses: KSU and WSU. Don't think the one player could overcome the team's effort against KSU or WSU but think we would have beaten ND, IL and SDSU. Again, this is just my opinion.

The only team I have not seen this year is USD but think there are four other conference schools with more capable PG's, that have better all around games.

My comments are saying Meech, DS or Carter have skills but each has weaknesses that standout and create mismatches on offense or defense, depending on who is on the court. We live and die with what we have and we are still a very dangerous team, as SMC will find out this Thursday evening!

cjm720
01-24-2011, 02:33 PM
Plus Minus research:

Meech http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=demetri-goodson&chart=roland_avg#chart

Stock http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=david-stockton

I adjusted the Plus Minus average from a per game perspective to a per minute perspective and Stock wins:

Meech - 109 Plus Minus overall divided by 519 total minutes = .210 Plus Minus
Stock - 57 divided by 200 = .285

That said, you can spin stats all day long but this is somewhat telling IMO.

McConnell and Deledova - .47 and .52 per minute and top 7 in the country on a per game basis.