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View Full Version : Few's thoughts on the new elbow rule



CDC84
01-22-2011, 10:32 PM
http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/sportslink/2011/jan/22/game-story-gu-usf/#more


This game will long be remembered for two things: Gonzaga’s inability to hit free throws in crunch time and the NCAA’s point of emphasis this season on elbows to the head.

A back-and-forth tussle finally seemed to be leaning Gonzaga’s way when center Robert Sacre secured a rebound with 24.5 seconds left and the Bulldogs leading by one point. Before Sacre could make an outlet pass in traffic, San Francisco’s Angelo Caloiaro closed in and Sacre unintentionally caught Caloiaro on the chin with an elbow.

Referees watched a replay on a courtside TV monitor and called Sacre for an intentional foul. Caloiaro made both free throws and USF retained possession, which led to two more free throws by Rashad Green. Gonzaga fought back to force overtime on Demetri Goodson’s clutch 3-pointer, but the Dons used a pair of three-point plays in the extra session to defeat the Bulldogs 96-91 in front of 4,195 Saturday at War Memorial Gym.

Gonzaga coach Mark Few was livid when Sacre was whistled for the foul. Few hasn’t been a fan of the new rule since the beginning of the season.
“It’s one we need to look at as coaches and refs,” Few said of the new rule, which is in place for player safety reasons. “I don’t know what the rebounder is supposed to do, and I don’t know what to coach the rebounder on."

roxdoc
01-22-2011, 10:44 PM
I'm sure most of the talk will be about the elbow - but the real killer was the refs making it intentional - that was a real game changer at 20+ seconds to go. If it wasn't for that we get the ball back down by 1 instead of 3 and Meech's 3 may have won it.

zag buddy
01-22-2011, 10:44 PM
I understand the need and the referees interpretation of the rule. What I don't understand is how you can keep the elbows at shoulder level or below and then have an opposing player bend over thus getting hit in the head and call a flagerant foul on the ball handler. Ex. Sacre had at least three players surrounding him grabbing frantically at the ball. He keep his elbows at his shoulder level, another opposing player bends over, gets hit in the head and the foul is called on Robert. It seems to me that if you want to draw a flagrant foul all you have to do is get close to the ball handler, bend your head in and get hit on the noggin. Easy 4 points.

Mantua
01-22-2011, 10:47 PM
+1

Dumb rule.

CDC84
01-22-2011, 10:54 PM
What I find interesting is that Few hates the rule, and the fact that he has hated it since it was implemented in the offseason. If you go to ESPN and listen Jay Bilas and other talking heads, they make it sound as if the new rule is universally loved by everyone who is associated with college basketball.

Hoopaholic
01-22-2011, 10:54 PM
so I would teach my little guys to stick their chin right in the arm of the big boys and flop

stupid.....I understand and AGREE if the elbows get extended or the elbows reach out to strike someone but in this case the ball was simply CHINNED under his chin as taught..the elbows naturally go outward if your hands are on either side of a ROUND ball.

They expect them to drop their elbows? This makes holding the ball very difficult from being slapped or batted away

disadvantage to the BIG BOYS and rebounders....DUMB rule good intent but not well thought out

gonwick
01-22-2011, 10:57 PM
"Best elbow I've taken in a while," Caloiaro said.

Few didn't completely disagree with the call.

"I don't know what to tell our guys," he said. "He got tied up, two guys jumped on him and tied him up. We teach them to protect the ball with their elbows. It's a tough situation for a kid to be in. But the letter of the law is if you swing your elbows near the face, it's an intentional foul."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2014009906_apbkcgonzagasanfrancisco3rdldwritethru. html

Tied up? He could have used some stronger verbiage, like "he was getting fouled for two seconds and had to protect himself." Yeesh.

zag buddy
01-22-2011, 10:58 PM
If you got your starting 8 players to do it 5 times each you would have the opportunity to score 160 points.
All you walk on's come over here ---------

sullyzag66
01-22-2011, 11:09 PM
"Best elbow I've taken in a while," Caloiaro said.

Few didn't completely disagree with the call.

"I don't know what to tell our guys," he said. "He got tied up, two guys jumped on him and tied him up. We teach them to protect the ball with their elbows. It's a tough situation for a kid to be in. But the letter of the law is if you swing your elbows near the face, it's an intentional foul."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2014009906_apbkcgonzagasanfrancisco3rdldwritethru. html

Tied up? He could have used some stronger verbiage, like "he was getting fouled for two seconds and had to protect himself." Yeesh.
He disagrees with the rule.

gonwick
01-22-2011, 11:18 PM
I understand that he disagrees with the rule, I just thought he could have stated a more compelling case for Rob. If your player is getting hacked after pulling down what should have been a game winning rebound, I'm not sure "tied up" really paints an accurate picture. As he said in the other quote, this rule needs to be reviewed.

FuManShoes
01-23-2011, 12:46 AM
Let's be honest: Rob didn't just raise his elbows, he swung them. He knew it, the Zags and Dons knew it, everyone knew it. Did Calario take as vicious a hit as he portrayed? Of course not. But fact is Rob broke the rules and the Zags paid.

Ironically I think that is the one call these doofuses got right.

Nevtelen
01-23-2011, 01:48 AM
Ironically I think that is the one call these doofuses got right.

As per the letter of the law, you are right. Me, and a lot of people on this board and elsewhere (and now Few) are pretty pissed off by that fact though. What is Rob supposed to do? Let himself get fouled for a few seconds, then allow a jump ball to be called (at best)? IF this rule is around for the long haul, then refs need to immediately protect the rebounder. Anyone who even looks like they might be attempting to reach in and grab the ball in that situation - let alone 3 or 4 guys hanging off a player's shoulders - need to be immediately called for a foul. Otherwise you're penalizing good play, manufacturing possibly game-altering fouls, and rewarding poor rebounding. Instead of rebounding, it's actually better in that situation as it stands to let an opposing player get the rebound and send in two guys to hound, scrape, and claw at the rebounder. You're almost guaranteed to get either a jump ball or an intentional. Why bother to try and rebound?

Chicken Ball
01-23-2011, 05:50 AM
Keep your elbows in tight, ad try to get the outlet pass away faster. If he had looked up court rather than pivoted back toward the Dons' basket, swinging elbows with abandon, everything would have been fine. It's not that hard.

bigblahla
01-23-2011, 07:20 AM
He had an immediate outlet pass to Stocks and didn't make it. We all learned from this one.

Go!! Zags!!!

MDABE80
01-23-2011, 07:40 AM
Contested. Both ROb and their guy were fighting for the ball and both had their hands on it. ROb was trying to pull the ball free and did. It was an inadvertant elbow onthe replay from the front of Rob. USF kids chin simply got in the way when ROb pulled the ball loose.
Not intentional at all. What Few doesn't like about the rule...happened last night.

It's over! We can still win the SMC games. Let's do that. GOD I hate this drama!! Just go beat the crapo outta somebody!

zag67
01-23-2011, 07:55 AM
I think most of us understand "why" they want the rule. But if the rule is going to exist, then the refs are going to have to call a closer game under the boards (in favor of the person with the ball). THis is because what is a big man suppose to do? The smaller players come running at him and get inches from his legs. He has no room to move or even pass the ball. If the ref had called the foul on their person immediately, then Sacre's foul would not have happened. This rule needs to change or the refs need to call the game differently. The aggressive defensive players have just gained a major advantage and their coaches know it. I do not think that is what this rule was suppose to bring about.

rijman
01-23-2011, 08:02 AM
I don't like the fact that at 7' Sacre will catch players in the face with his elbows whereas Stockton can't reach most opposing players faces with his elbows. Disadvantage big man.

Reborn
01-23-2011, 08:05 AM
A rule is a rule. What do you teach? You teach your guys to NOT not do it. I agree with FUMANSHU...Sacre threw the elbow, and as I saw it, he did intentionally. He had other options, one of which is to take a jump ball at all costs. What is worse, a jump ball, and the possession goes to the opposing player? Or two shots and the opposing team still gets the ball out of bounds.

If we had taken the jump ball, Gonzaga is still up by one point and they have the ball with 26 seconds left and have to score. Worse case scenario is that we have to foul them and they go up by one and we have the ball with 20 seconds left, and we score and win. We would only have had to make a two point shot in that scenario to win.

willandi
01-23-2011, 08:33 AM
A rule is a rule, and Rob threw an elbow and it got called. My question is (and it is the same question from the UC** game) "wasn't he fouled BEFORE that happened?" Why were the previous fouls not called, even though they were not as hard or as dangerous? They still were fouls...much the same as Harris on the back of the player on the floor to tie the ball up. How is that not a foul?

Hoopaholic
01-23-2011, 08:38 AM
so if it is a rule why then?

Did they not call the elbow to Grays mouth in SMC game as the offensive player drove and stuck his elbow into grays face cutting his lip?


Did they not call the elbow last night to Grays face as he tried to get around a screen set at the block



Seems to me that the rule is only being applied in a rebounding or "chinning" mode of the basketball and not consistently applied

ZagLawGrad
01-23-2011, 09:00 AM
I didn't like the call, but that's my homer side talking. RS knew the rule and he was too aggressive with the elbow. I think the look on his face as soon as it happened was a sign he knew it, too.

hondo
01-23-2011, 09:32 AM
While being hacked, pushed and grabbed at a big must secure the ball and to do so the elbows have to come out. I was there and I'm certain Rob was in no way intending to strike anyone. From my angle it didn't appear that he actually struck the guy who went down. My view of the incident was not very good however, I'll have to see the replay. There was a lot of flopping by USF all night. The bottom line here is that in order for this new rule to be effective the refs must have the spine to call the 3 or 4 fouls that Rob received before the elbow call. No doubt those bozos would have let USF players take Rob to the ground and then called a tie up. Incompetent and spineless best describes
the reffing jobs both Thursday and Saturday night. At Santa Clara at a critical point in the game Rob was pushed very hard in the back as he moved in for a lay up, an obvious intentional foul ( no attempt at the ball) but only a common foul was called. Just spineless call all weekend.

ZagHouse
01-23-2011, 09:47 AM
Call the reason for Rob swinging his elbows and that play doesn't happen. Our 7ft player has clearly grabbed the rebound. Has the ball Held high, and the opposing players are grabbing and swatting at the ball. Call the foul before Rob has an opportunity to swing his elbows. The grin on the SF player said it all.

bigblahla
01-23-2011, 10:05 AM
While being hacked, pushed and grabbed at a big must secure the ball and to do so the elbows have to come out. I was there and I'm certain Rob was in no way intending to strike anyone. From my angle it didn't appear that he actually struck the guy who went down. My view of the incident was not very good however, I'll have to see the replay. There was a lot of flopping by USF all night. The bottom line here is that in order for this new rule to be effective the refs must have the spine to call the 3 or 4 fouls that Rob received before the elbow call. No doubt those bozos would have let USF players take Rob to the ground and then called a tie up. Incompetent and spineless best describes
the reffing jobs both Thursday and Saturday night. At Santa Clara at a critical point in the game Rob was pushed very hard in the back as he moved in for a lay up, an obvious intentional foul ( no attempt at the ball) but only a common foul was called. Just spineless call all weekend.

If your talking about the clubbing Dowdell gave him across the face it was in no way an attempt at the ball.

Go!! Zags!!!

madness
01-23-2011, 10:15 AM
While being hacked, pushed and grabbed at a big must secure the ball and to do so the elbows have to come out. I was there and I'm certain Rob was in no way intending to strike anyone. From my angle it didn't appear that he actually struck the guy who went down. My view of the incident was not very good however, I'll have to see the replay. There was a lot of flopping by USF all night. The bottom line here is that in order for this new rule to be effective the refs must have the spine to call the 3 or 4 fouls that Rob received before the elbow call. No doubt those bozos would have let USF players take Rob to the ground and then called a tie up. Incompetent and spineless best describes
the reffing jobs both Thursday and Saturday night. At Santa Clara at a critical point in the game Rob was pushed very hard in the back as he moved in for a lay up, an obvious intentional foul ( no attempt at the ball) but only a common foul was called. Just spineless call all weekend.

+1 Completely. I believe I also caught Angelo Caloiaro faking that he was knocked out on the ground and smiling. Is there any place for this in legitimate college basketball? If somebody on my team did that in Rec League, I would kick him off the team. The fact that Coach Rex condones this play is despicable, similarly with Keating at SCU. It seems they are likening players on their teams to be hockey "goons" and try anything underhanded to draw fouls and to foul in a sneaking matter. I want to see teams in the WCC play basketball, not shoot FTs. This is a turning point in WCC basketball. Gonzaga needs to keep taking the higher road and let the talent shine through. This means not relying on 3s by Harris, but powering the ball to the hoop nonstop. Attack until you are exhausted then substitute and attack some more.

It's Gonzaga against the world now, back to the wall. Time to play some basketball.

VinnyZag
01-23-2011, 10:26 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong. But pivoting with elbows extended is permitted, right? Standing upright and swinging elbows is verbotten, but pivoting with your elbows out is OK. So if Rob pivots through the double team and brushes a guy with an elbow, that's a no-call. But standing there and throwing an elbow at a guy's face ...

Hoopaholic
01-23-2011, 10:36 AM
Rob got a rebound

Rob put the ball UNDER his chin

When you put the ball under your chin your ELBOWS naturally go to the outside in a triangle formation. If you drop your elbows you PHYSICALLY weaken the ability to hold the ball. PROVEN PHYSICS

Rob pivoted and DID NOT extend the elbows away from his body

The defender STEPPED INTO Rob

WHO initiated this contact...it was the defender but the Big boy got penalized