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U Zig, I Zag
01-20-2011, 07:23 PM
For me? It's a collective basketball IQ and to some extent a, what I would call basic, ability to control/handle the ball. Not talking controlling the floor, controlling the boards, etc. Actual, physical ability to control the ball in your hands and to make the ball where you want it to go whether it be passing, dribbling or rebounding. There is just a certain clumsiness to the way we deal with the ball.

Bulldog
01-20-2011, 07:25 PM
Lack of preparation for a big game on the road.

jazzdelmar
01-20-2011, 07:26 PM
A Div 1 point guard....

NEC26
01-20-2011, 07:26 PM
Basketball IQ for one thing. Harris and Gray have a lot of talent but not a copious amount of ability or know how to put it to use. Plus as has been beaten to death we lack a point guard that can make our offense run well.
Which is compounded by the fact that Gray isn't capable of running the team like Bouldin was.

Ekrub
01-20-2011, 07:28 PM
Stocktons playing time, harris' game, gonzaga basketball.

That's what was missing in this game at least

ZagMan in Philly
01-20-2011, 07:28 PM
How about NOT Missing: Foster
He was unconsious when it was on the LINE.

EuroZag2010
01-20-2011, 07:28 PM
Few shouldve left Stocton in the game longer we were up by 4 or so...

kyle dixon
01-20-2011, 07:29 PM
Gray was turning the ball over less than five times in the Zags wins after the bad streak. He had five to's at half time. Flush this one out, adjust, beat USF Saturday and then prepare for the showdown Thursday. All is not lost. By the way, Foster had a supreme effort tonight. Congrats to the Broncos.

cscz28
01-20-2011, 07:30 PM
Harris not diving for the ball in the beginning of the game was an omen to the result at the end of the game

U Zig, I Zag
01-20-2011, 07:31 PM
Basketball IQ for one thing. Harris and Gray have a lot of talent but not a copious amount of how to put it to use. Plus as has been beaten to death we lack a point guard that can make our offense run well.
Which is compounded by the fact that Gray isn't capable of running the team like Bouldin was.

Gray is, probably, our best player at this point but sometimes he just makes me scream. Way more than Meech, Carter and KO.

If I was Few (and I am not) I would take Gray out of the controlling part of the game. On O he would have one job and one job only - to get open and shoot. If he has a guy isolated then everyone knows to cover the rim because he is going to try and shake loose and shoot.

Early this year he took over a few games but lately, his up and under and spin in the key thing doesn't get us anywhere.

Ezag
01-20-2011, 07:32 PM
Stockton needed way more minutes, gray should not be handling ball that much, Harris has lost his fire again and will be back next year. Keita should have stayed in more. Erractic line ups all game long, not a good coaching job by Few

Ekrub
01-20-2011, 07:33 PM
Harris not diving for the ball in the beginning of the game was an omen to the result at the end of the game

Actually the tip off was kind of an omen.

john montana
01-20-2011, 07:33 PM
Brains. Dumbest team I have seen in a long time. Foster is torching us so meech leaves him to double down late in the game? Crazy cross court telegraphed passes, inability to throw a simple post entry pass? Our guard play is just bad...and that includes our two guard who is a heck of a shooter and makes tough shots but can't dribble at all. It is amazing rob is playing as well as he is with how poorly our overall guard play is...and do you think eh misses bouldin?

ZagLawGrad
01-20-2011, 07:35 PM
Lots of little pieces missing. Mostly tonight the toughness, mentally and physically.

ZagHouse
01-20-2011, 07:37 PM
Less Keita and more Manny. Keita's been a spark, but he's not the rebounder than Manny is and he couldn't defend Foster tonight. While EH was having his problems, fouls or no, Dower should have seen some time in the second half. Olynyk and Stockton were playing well during our brief run and then we never saw them again.

Learning to adapt to the way the refs are going to call the game.

FuManShoes
01-20-2011, 07:39 PM
Missing: Harris' drive (both to the rack and in his head)
Missing: Good hands. I agree with whoever said this team fumbles the ball too much, way too much.
Missing: Hustle, at least tonight. Harris wasn't the only one who looked slow and disinterested out there.
Missing: A facilitator. Stockton offers that in spurts and who knows, maybe he could bring it for significant chunks of the game. Meech does not offer it. He does some other things well and pushes the pace but this was one of those games where we needed a half-court floor general because Keating slowed this game way down and without the fast break, the Zags were screwed.
Missing: Defensive focus. The Zags didn't have it tonight. The Broncos got way too many second chances, too many bailouts, too many loose balls. The Zags never got more than a couple stops in a row.
Missing: A league that lets players play. The touch foul fest tonight was just one more in a long string of bull#### officiating performances that make WCC games painful to watch and ultimately hurt teams in the Dance.

krozman
01-20-2011, 07:40 PM
This team is like sending your kid to Harvard, who proceeds to graduate top of his class and then picks a career as a construction worker. Sure, it's noble work and all, but you expected something else.

This team is still 3-1 in their conference, has a great record compared to other teams, but i'm profoundly disappointed. My expectations were clearly too high. My fault.

MickMick
01-20-2011, 07:41 PM
Simple.

Ball security.

You can't deny that Foster came up huge down the stretch. Sometimes you gotta give credit to your opponent.

But to answer the original question, if the Zags take care of the ball, then they would have been in this one down the stretch.

20 turnovers is surrendering a lot of scoring opportunities. Steven Gray might head the list in that department.

Why does no one believe me when I say he isn't a point guard or primary ball handler?

TM27
01-20-2011, 07:43 PM
A Div 1 point guard....

This.

If a PG cannot make a simple entry pass, that PG should not see the court. A redshirt frosh walk-on PG makes our offense look alive....why? Partly because he has great vision, and partly because Gray, Harris, and Sacre, when allowed, will create match-up problems at their respective positions. Problem is SG has to become a pseudo PG instead of running off screens, EH has minimal space because it is 4 on 5 all the time, and Rob cant get the ball delivered to him on time. We are missing an upperclassman PG to keep the O flowing when our walk-on frosh PG is on the bench.

NEC26
01-20-2011, 07:44 PM
Simple.

Ball security.

You can't deny that Foster came up huge down the stretch. Sometimes you gotta give credit to your opponent.

But to answer the original question, if the Zags take care of the ball, then they would have been in this one down the stretch.

20 turnovers is surrendering a lot of scoring opportunities. Steven Gray might head the list in that department.

Why does no one believe me when I say he isn't a point guard or primary ball handler?

I think its been clear not only this year but last year as well that Gray makes silly passes and turns the ball over a lot. You are not the only one to see that. Unfortunately you will be soundly tongue lashed for pointing out things like that on this board.

1973Zag
01-20-2011, 07:44 PM
It's scary to think that a walk-on,undersized,frosh. guard is the most composed,settling player we have(save Sacre) Not a superstar, but you can count on his game every time. And he really was not getting abused on defense. Nice game Rob, nice game David. Lots of chips riding on Vegas now!

CDC84
01-20-2011, 07:46 PM
The Zags allowed Portland to shoot 52% from the field (57% in the 2nd half) and Pepperdine to shoot 52% from the field (60% in the 2nd half). The defense okay against LMU, but the Lions are limping right now.

Then they allow a 39% shooting Santa Clara team to go crazy from the field. Even worse, their only real offensive threat has a career night. If you can't stop the other team's only decent offensive threat, you have problems.

This team has regressed defensively once again.

The 2010/11 Zags are NEVER going to be a very good offensive team. We knew that from the opening tip of this season. They have too many holes. They can't outscore people in games like this. It has to be suffocating defense and rebounding.

NEC26
01-20-2011, 07:47 PM
CDC this team can be pretty decent offensively but we have the wrong point guard out there most of the time.

GrizZAG
01-20-2011, 07:49 PM
Gary Bell
Kevin Pangos

Just for starters....

FuManShoes
01-20-2011, 07:50 PM
I think its been clear not only this year but last year as well that Gray makes silly passes and turns the ball over a lot. You are not the only to see that. Unfortunately you will be soundly tongue lashed for pointing out things like that on this board.

Woe is you. Enough tears. It doesn't take a basketball genius to see Gray isn't a true PG. You call him out tonight for the TOs - and rightfully so - but what about the other games where he has 8, 9 assists and no TOs? The guy has bad nights, they all do. There's no taboo on mentioning it but it's not responsible to say Gray is always reckless with the ball, because he isn't. There's plenty of blame to go around tonight - the lack of movement and hustle, the crappy guard play across the board, the failure to defend the one guy that could torch the Zags.

CaZagAlum
01-20-2011, 07:52 PM
We're missing a point guard, plain and simple.

I completely blame Steven's turnovers on the fact he is forced to handle the ball waaaaay more than he should. Not having a point guard probably irks him too, because he could be a far more consistent player without so many duties. His handles were absolutely exposed tonight, and I love the kid.

Shocked Monninghoff wasn't put in when we clearly had no outside game.

bigblahla
01-20-2011, 07:53 PM
This.

If a PG cannot make a simple entry pass, that PG should not see the court. A redshirt frosh walk-on PG makes our offense look alive....why? Partly because he has great vision, and partly because Gray, Harris, and Sacre, when allowed, will create match-up problems at their respective positions. Problem is SG has to become a pseudo PG instead of running off screens, EH has minimal space because it is 4 on 5 all the time, and Rob cant get the ball delivered to him on time. We are missing an upperclassman PG to keep the O flowing when our walk-on frosh PG is on the bench.

I like this, Rob flashed open several times tonight with no pass being delivered but when we can't run that is an issue.

Go!! Zags!!!

EngineerZag
01-20-2011, 07:53 PM
Intensity, especially to start the game. I could see a huge difference in intensity between SCU and us from the opening tip. If you watch highlights from any other game that was on TV tonight, you'll see play after play with a bada**, in your face dunk, rebound, something that shows a killer instinct - usually combined with great teamwork and passing. We have none of the above. We play a bunch of consistently boring 1-on-1 or 1-on-3 offense with very little driving to the basket, or driving and dishing outside, or much movement of any kind for that matter. The best offense we have is when Rob and E will occasionally draw the defender out of the paint and we get a cutter to the basket like Manny or Harris or even Steven - and it doesn't happen very often.

NEC26
01-20-2011, 07:53 PM
Woe is you. Enough tears. It doesn't take a basketball genius to see Gray isn't a true PG. You call him out tonight for the TOs - and rightfully so - but what about the other games where he has 8, 9 assists and no TOs? The guy has bad nights, they all do. There's no taboo on mentioning it but it's not responsible to say Gray is always reckless with the ball, because he isn't. There's plenty of blame to go around tonight - the lack of movement and hustle, the crappy guard play across the board, the failure to defend the one guy that could torch the Zags.

I think that was my point. That anyone can see he has trouble with turning the ball over. Never said it took a genius to figure it out. Quite the opposite in fact.

Oh and please point out were I said Gray is always reckless.

Zagregious
01-20-2011, 07:54 PM
It's scary to think that a walk-on,undersized,frosh. guard is the most composed,settling player we have(save Sacre) Not a superstar, but you can count on his game every time. And he really was not getting abused on defense.!

What amuses me, is that we all see this, but Few appears to be ignoring that fact. I honestly hope I'm wrong.

Missing: I strongly feel that when it comes to adjustments in the clutch, Few is unusually weak for a coach with his stellar record. Blame the players, but the coach's biggest responsibility once the clock starts is to see what is and isn't working on any given night, and adjust accordingly. Players have bad nights, they're young men for crying out loud.

I know that the sky is not falling, this is gonna happen as the rest of the league improves around us. I just want to be at the top. That's all.

Go Zags! I hope this game makes you mad and fuels the fire.

Baldwinzag
01-20-2011, 07:55 PM
Zags weren't ready to play in the most hostile arena we've seen all season.

Don't forget we played Notre Dame sans students & haven't played one "true" road game all season, especially against one of our biggest rivals.

We just got schooled by their fans, their team, Kerry Keating, and the WCC refs.

Hurts.

bigblahla
01-20-2011, 07:56 PM
Gray was turning the ball over less than five times in the Zags wins after the bad streak. He had five to's at half time. Flush this one out, adjust, beat USF Saturday and then prepare for the showdown Thursday. All is not lost. By the way, Foster had a supreme effort tonight. Congrats to the Broncos.

+1

Go!! Zags!!!

ZagsObserver
01-20-2011, 07:59 PM
The offense is often stale at the start of games due in part to the pg's inability to run the offense. In this case the switch should have been made from Meech to Stockton. I believe the game would have been won if Stockton saw more time and Meech less. Meech simply cannot lead this team. He can sub off the bench for a few minutes here and there, but he shouldn't be getting starting minutes because he's not starting material. Sorry.

The fact that Meech is deficient means that added pressure is placed on the shoulders of Gray to try and create, and this leads to TOs and the like...simple entry passes and transition passes seem only to be present when Stockton hits the floor. Not all the team's issues can be placed on the pg play of this team, but the snowball effect has really impacted the team in a negative way.

BigTymeONIONS
01-20-2011, 08:00 PM
Point guard and basketball IQ. Meech is nothing but an athlete and can't run an offense to save his life. As for the game tonight: How do you let their best player shoot 14 threes?!?! That is lack of basketball IQ to me. A smart player, heck, a normal player, should recognize what is happening and guard him at all costs. Make someone else beat you.

gamagin
01-20-2011, 08:00 PM
play and play them.

Clearly this team is going to have to keep learning & earning their way all season, no matter who they are playing against.

Every WCC team rightfully brings their A game against us. They prepare and they don't quit. They are counting on us to let up. Too often, historically, we do.

SCU's coach just beat GU for the first time since he got the job. He finally ended a four year drought, from his perspective. GU lost to SCU for the first time in nine contests. Our current winning streak was stopped at nine.

Recovery will all boil down to our own intensity, our own will to win and our own commitment to out focus, hustle and play our opponents. Clearly we didn't do that v. SCU.

as one announcer said, the WCC just got alot more interesting. I would add that this is true, it got alot more interesting for everyone else. It got a lot more challenging for us.

The question is whether we rise to the challenge. It's boring as hell, imo, to bemoan who on our team is more or less to blame. The fact is, this isn't the bigs. There will be no midseason trades. There will be movement in the lineups, I hope. Except for RS.

Or at the very least, every additional minute of p.t. will once again have to be earned as if the season has just begun all over again. The results of this game dictates that, imo.

CDC84
01-20-2011, 08:01 PM
CDC this team can be pretty decent offensively but we have the wrong point guard out there most of the time.

I don't think the team even looks that good offensively with Stockton at the helm. I just don't. I know other people feel differently, but I disagree. Until the Zags get Kevin Pangos, Gary Bell, etc., in here, the team will continue to have issues on offense.

The offense just looks better when David is in there (provided he isn't being defensively pressured by a superior athlete). But even if it looks better, it still isn't better enough to withstand poor defense like this. If you allow a 39% shooting team to go off like that, you deserve an L.

Baldwinzag
01-20-2011, 08:02 PM
nt

RenoZag
01-20-2011, 08:03 PM
Gary Bell
Kevin Pangos

Just for starters....

I hope they know how to play defense

NEC26
01-20-2011, 08:04 PM
I don't think the team even looks that good offensively with Stockton at the helm. I just don't. Never have, never will. Until the Zags get Kevin Pangos, Gary Bell, etc., in here, the team will continue to have issues on offense. The offense just looks better when David is in there (provided he isn't being defensively pressured by a superior athlete). But even if it looks better, it still isn't better enough to withstand poor defense like this.

I bet his +- was a net positive again tonight(which is saying something considering we lost by 14). You can't deny that every time he comes in we make a run and our offense picks up.

FuManShoes
01-20-2011, 08:06 PM
I think that was my point. That anyone can see he has trouble with turning the ball over. Never said it took a genius to figure it out. Quite the opposite in fact.

Oh and please point out were I said Gray is always reckless.

Apologies for being a bit hotheaded. I'm as pissed as anyone. That game sucked.

To me this is calling Gray a consistently reckless player, which I don't believe him to be and which I don't believe the numbers show him to be:


I think its been clear not only this year but last year as well that Gray makes silly passes and turns the ball over a lot.

1. Name me a player who doesn't make silly passes from time to time.

2. Entering this game, Gray had a 1.93 A/T ratio. Meech's was 2.07. Stockton's was 1.40.

NEC26
01-20-2011, 08:08 PM
Apologies for being a bit hotheaded. I'm as pissed as anyone. That game sucked.

To me this is calling Gray a consistently reckless player, which I don't believe him to be and which I don't believe the numbers show him to be:



1. Name me a player who doesn't make silly passes from time to time.

2. Entering this game, Gray had a 1.93 A/T ratio. Meech's was 2.07. Stockton's was 1.40.

Gray does get a lot of good passes and assists. Unfortunately he also has a lot of dumb passes and ugly turnovers. Is it every game? No, but Micks point was that he wasn't a point guard, I agree. He just isn't a Bouldin type player. Not saying he isn't talented just saying that doesn't go well with our other starting point guard.

CDC84
01-20-2011, 08:09 PM
I bet his +- was a net positive again tonight(which is saying something considering we lost by 14). You can't deny that every time he comes in we make a run and our offense picks up.

The offense looks better. Don't disagree. But it's not enough to make up for bad defense like this, which would only get worse with him in there for extended minutes against the other team's first team.

NEC26
01-20-2011, 08:12 PM
The offense looks better. Don't disagree. But it's not enough to make up for bad defense like this, which would only get worse with him in there for extended minutes against the other team's first team.

You may be right. I sure would like to see though. I thought Stock should have played more tonight and I'll leave it at that.

kyle dixon
01-20-2011, 08:14 PM
Flush it out of the system. Beat USF and then prepare for SMC. A win against SMC means we are tied for the conference lead....

CDC84
01-20-2011, 08:20 PM
Then hope that SMC loses at Portland, because if they don't, they probably won't lose another conference game until they face GU at McKeon on Feb 24.

GonzagaLove
01-20-2011, 08:21 PM
I think its been clear not only this year but last year as well that Gray makes silly passes and turns the ball over a lot. You are not the only one to see that. Unfortunately you will be soundly tongue lashed for pointing out things like that on this board.

Amen.

odeasmcgu
01-20-2011, 08:21 PM
Just reading all of the comments I think one thing one thing that GU has suffered from is missing on too many recruits. Over the past couple of years they have brought in guys who were touted as point guards but just haven't panned out (Gibbs, Villariano, Meech). GU used to be known for developing point guards. Bouldin was at GU for four years and played great. But every since recruiting him, GU never developed a replacement.

Second, you have to give credit to the league. This is not a league where you can simply beat teams by being more athletic like GU might have even two years ago. The talent level has significantly improved thanks mightily to GU and the competition they have provided.

I think GU has to take a look at their program and start looking for guys who fit the system they play. Some of the guys I mentioned above were high ranking guys but for one reason or another just didn't fit. You look at the classes since Gray and Sacre and only one player has been a major factor (Harris). Other than that you look at the classes and they have underachieved (Poling/Gibbs/Meech), (Olnyck/Kong/Arop). Those six are guys GU was counting on and it just hasn't happened.

I look at what we have done at SMC these last few years and I see Bennett gets guys who have skills that fit his system. None of our guys were big time recruits (Mickey/Delly/Steindl/Young etc.) but they suit Bennett and our system.

Ezag
01-20-2011, 08:22 PM
Flush it out of the system. Beat USF and then prepare for SMC. A win against SMC means we are tied for the conference lead....

SMC is far better than SCU. If we play like we did tonight then there will be no tie the top.

Baldwinzag
01-20-2011, 08:26 PM
we didn't even look interested in playing defense...

Allowing a fellow WCC'er to score 36pts vs us is a joke & inexcusable.

Gray's foul trouble, officiating, & lack of hustle is to blame.

Our defensive intensity has been lost in WCC play. Part conference officials, yet mostly our mindset needs to be addressed.

All & All, weak effort by our Zags tonight. Things didn't go GU's way, yet no excuse to play like its the first game of the season i.e. sloppy passes, Harris = Houdini, & zero production from our bench.

Worse than WSU game, imo.

Hard to believe our 11th consecutive Conference Championship is on the line next Thursday night.

The guys need to chew on that awhile...

ZagMania
01-20-2011, 08:36 PM
I thought Gray did a fairly good job keeping Foster in check until he had to switch off due to foul troubles.

coolhandzag
01-20-2011, 08:37 PM
The Zags might be guilty of some of the same attitudes a lot of posters here at the board are. Looking past SC anyone? There have been a multitude of posts dedicated to the fear installed by SMC. You looked past a marginal (at best) SC team and they handed your ass to you.

One player attempts 14 3s? At what point do you commit to denying this guy the ball. From what I saw that point would come sometime after he sticks one more in your face as time expires.

The truth for the Zags is this. This was failed effort from the top down, Few included. I could go on but I wont.

The only game that matter is your next. Pull your collective head out and get ready for USF.

I'll always support you and cheer for you because I'm a Zag, but if they can't play with any more intensity, intelligence, pride or simple guts then what was displayed tonight. Then they don't deserve a Conference Championship or a ticket to the dance.

hooter73
01-20-2011, 08:37 PM
Intensity

for years we cant seem to get the motivation to play a FULL game. Only thing that changes are the players.

zagzilla
01-20-2011, 08:40 PM
I think this kid is a head case. Didn't seem to give a darn tonight. Outhustled to loose balls. Sloppy TO's, indifferent rebounding. Missed shots weren't even close. Useless on D.

His foul trouble was aided and abetted by some bad calls but gotta rise above.

Few alluded to his psyche when discussing how he handled his recent injuries. Now this. Did you notice the facial expressions and body languag?. At one point made me think he might not be here next year and not because he went to the NBA.

What's missing? Right now for Harris just about everything. Few better hire a shrink.

heavyzag
01-20-2011, 08:48 PM
Is not even close to the same player he was last year! Not even close.

MickMick
01-20-2011, 08:59 PM
The Zags allowed Portland to shoot 52% from the field (57% in the 2nd half) and Pepperdine to shoot 52% from the field (60% in the 2nd half). The defense okay against LMU, but the Lions are limping right now.

Then they allow a 39% shooting Santa Clara team to go crazy from the field. Even worse, their only real offensive threat has a career night. If you can't stop the other team's only decent offensive threat, you have problems.

This team has regressed defensively once again.

The 2010/11 Zags are NEVER going to be a very good offensive team. We knew that from the opening tip of this season. They have too many holes. They can't outscore people in games like this. It has to be suffocating defense and rebounding.

I disagree for one reason.

You would have to be one heck of a defensive team to compensate for 20 turnovers.

Defense is damn hard work. When your team works hard to gain possession, only to see the ball given away at the other end, the net effect wears heavily on the psyche.

In every case, the defense will eventually collapse because the mental intensity can't be maintained. Giving the ball away does far more damage than simply giving the opponent an extra scoring opportunity.

Turnovers often lead to transition defense (a different type of defense) as opposed to standard half court fare.

roxdoc
01-20-2011, 09:09 PM
In order of importance:

1. Intensity/emotion - what normally is expected to be instilled in preparation by the coaches. Year in year out this is a problem. Pangos says he likes to motivate his team - maybe he can get the job done.

2. Composure under fire - the whole point of the early season against strong competition, strange refs, away from home seems to have had no effect on our ability to cope. And yes we have been in some hostile situations against a lot stronger teams than SC.

3. A credible offense - Could be point guard issue, but lack of ball movement, is there any other plan beyond forcing it into Rob, etc etc. Lack of any coherent offense coupled with v poor ball handling in last 10 minutes was appalling.

4. Defense. Taking away the Ammo years how many times have we had one of our guys go off for say 30 pts in a game vs how many times for our opponents. I'd say the ratio is about 1 vs 10.

maynard g krebs
01-20-2011, 09:17 PM
First or second time down the floor for the Zags, the ball got loose in transition. Looked like Harris was closest to the ball, but inexplicably, he stayed on his feet and reached down for it while the SC player dove on the ball. At that point I felt like the Zags were in danger of losing.

If he's still injured to the point where he's afraid to get on the floor, he shouldn't be playing. Perceived effort, or the lack of it, is contagious in either a good or bad way.

NovaZag
01-20-2011, 09:49 PM
Agreed. Too many incomplete basketball players means we have to play a large rotation in order to collectively compensate for each other's weaknesses. But it's a delicate balancing act that's very difficult to pull off every game because it requires players to be consistent.

As for our guard situation, I think it's a mistake to presume that our incoming class will solve all our issues at the guard spot. The fact is, we will have three Freshman guards next year (presuming they don't redshirt). Maybe that's better than what we have this year, but we won't have Gray.

HillBillyZag
01-20-2011, 10:18 PM
We had beaten these kids from Stanta Clara nine (9) times in a row . If you think they were'nt pumped up to defend their home floor and kick our tails then you must live in another universe . Everyone in the WCC has always given us their best shot since G.U. started getting all of the press and media coverage and makinga mockery of the other teams in the league . Our Conference is improving and any time you don't bring your "A" game and your best effort into another teams house , you are in big trouble! Our kids played hard !, not smart , but hard . Their kids played harder and Foster was just unconcious . End of story . Few will get things back on track and you will see a different result vs San Fran on Sat. G.U. is still the best team in the League and it will tell in the long run .

Birddog
01-20-2011, 10:21 PM
I know he has had injury problems and probably still has residual problems as a result, but even beyong that possibility, Harris game has not improved in any single area since last season. I won't say he has regressed, but there is no sign of improvement. He makes the same moves and gets caught on offensive fouls mostly lowering his shoulder way to much just like last year. He takes ill advised shots, many times too early in the clock, and doesn't play defense all that well. We don't need Harris taking circus shots and jacking 3's, we need him sharing the ball, playing better defense, and just hustling. If he can't do that, he needs to sub in (IMO), until he can. The poor kids NBA chances are falling like a rock. If it's the injuries, he needs some R&R.

PS, not blaming tonights loss on him, there's way to much blame to share for that.

UberZagFan
01-20-2011, 10:31 PM
Sometimes Uber wonders if he is watching the same game as everyone else save CDC on this board. This game was about effort. Which showed up on Defense mostly but also on the TOs.

How do you let another player go off for a personal best again? Please will someone give us the stats on that. GU has given up an opposing players personal best at a higher percentage than any other WCC school...guaranteed! It's sick. Always excused by the announcers by the claim that every team in the WCC "gets up" for the Zags. That is a crazy excuse. Personal bests come against the bottom feeders.

Poor poor poor excuse for defense in this game tonight. But that is a broken record.

DixieZag
01-20-2011, 11:04 PM
Which sort of begs the question; why isn't Stockton given a chance to start? PG has been our problem all year and it has not been a big secret. Yet each and every game, Meech walks out on to the floor.

I do not think Stockton is a top flight WCC PG - but he is the closest thing we have to it right now. I have never believed the "the run started when Stockton was in" - - until tonight, when it did, obviously - and he hit a three to put us up three with 7 or 8 left. We stopped scoring at about the 5 mark, Stockton was out at that point.

There are problems everywhere right now, especially between the ears of every player and coach down in California. The season can go one of two ways right now. We could win a tough road game at USF and come home and battle SMC - - or we could "throw the ball out again Saturday, same guys, same thinking" - and see what happens.

So why not reward the kids that played hard throughout? Stockton has earned a start, Keita deserves the three spot now. Stockton/Gray/Keita/Harris (he was good v. LMU)/Sacre - - could we come out worse with that starting lineup????

The other thing that I do not understand is that if we are not a good flowing offensive team - but we have 11 serviceable guys, why don't we put on a high pressure press for half the game and try wearing out teams that are not as deep?

Lots of questions - I am not a coach - but the team that came out tonight was not well prepared and looked beat after being 7 down to start.

MJ777
01-20-2011, 11:21 PM
Intensity to match SCU's intensity is what was missing on Thursday. I know Few is a great coach, but if I was the coach, I would have called a timeout when it was 5-0 or perhaps sooner and put in 5 new guys in for a stretch to get the starters attention.

Baseline
01-20-2011, 11:36 PM
To me the intensity and desire were lacking. These guys know they are going to get everyones best shot so they need to somehow find a way to get motivated. Some people like to stay in the middle on emotions and not have the wild swings up and down, maybe thats Few's philosophy!
I think too many people are in the rotation, they guys aren't a well oiled machine by any means as them need to spend effort adjusting to the latest sub. Shorten the rotation and you get more of a team cohesion. IMHO

bigblahla
01-21-2011, 05:04 AM
I know he has had injury problems and probably still has residual problems as a result, but even beyong that possibility, Harris game has not improved in any single area since last season. I won't say he has regressed, but there is no sign of improvement. He makes the same moves and gets caught on offensive fouls mostly lowering his shoulder way to much just like last year. He takes ill advised shots, many times too early in the clock, and doesn't play defense all that well. We don't need Harris taking circus shots and jacking 3's, we need him sharing the ball, playing better defense, and just hustling. If he can't do that, he needs to sub in (IMO), until he can. The poor kids NBA chances are falling like a rock. If it's the injuries, he needs some R&R.

PS, not blaming tonights loss on him, there's way to much blame to share for that.

Regressed no, exposed? Yes! Dless Harris can't stay on his feet for the simplest pump fake. Can't dribble to save his life.

Go!! Zags!!!

jazzdelmar
01-21-2011, 05:17 AM
Zags are just not that talented. Lots of unidimensional players. SCs frosh point guard is better than our three. No reason next years group can't be as good. Best if Harris leaves. Much too self-absorbed now. Sacre is fun, so are Keita and Stock. Few will never start Stck. Just a flaw in a good coach.

LongIslandZagFan
01-21-2011, 05:50 AM
Yes... all the players suck and so do the coaches. Jeez... all of you have some serious issues.

Yes, last night's game sucked. But for all of people ragging on Harris, I find it hard to fault him for the loss when he spent most of the game on the bench.
Gray... flat out had a bad game. Arop was non-existent. The whole team missed at least 15 shots from 3 feet or less.

They got out hustled... no doubt. But thank the man upstairs that is not the people on this board on the court because it seems all of you would just forfeit the next game and go home and sulk.

One, game. One. These are the same kids that half of you couldn't say enough great things about for the last 10 games. Now they all suck. Way to be bi-polar.

FuManShoes
01-21-2011, 05:55 AM
Not sure how many of you caught the UW-Arizona game but Isaiah Thomas put on another clinic. 22 points (including 10 FT attempts), 10 assists, 6 rebounds and 1 TO.

He drives with purpose and finishes, kicks it out hard or tosses it up for an alley-oop, always looking for an open teammate as the defense collapses on him. He upfakes and sends in lasers where his stone-handed bigs can catch them, and in one remarkable sequence he dove, saved the ball to a teammate, got up, led them down the floor, drove and kicked it out for a wide open three. In short he's the kind of guard the Zags don't have. Is it realistic for Meech or Carter or Stockton to turn into that kind of player overnight? No, but IT wasn't distributing like this until Gaddy went down and I'm not sure it's just because of the move to the point out of necessity. Something clicked and he started playing a lot smarter. As Marques Johnson said, one notable thing is that IT started maintaining his dribble a lot better and that alone has put him in better position to make plays and orchestrate an offense.

U Zig, I Zag
01-21-2011, 06:01 AM
Gray does get a lot of good passes and assists. Unfortunately he also has a lot of dumb passes and ugly turnovers. Is it every game? No, but Micks point was that he wasn't a point guard, I agree. He just isn't a Bouldin type player. Not saying he isn't talented just saying that doesn't go well with our other starting point guard.

What ends up not showing up in the stat sheet (where assist to TO does) is the fact that sloppy, slow, miscalculated passing/dribbling WHILE STILL MAINTAINING CONTROL can be detrimental as hell. Gray lacks precision when he is forced to handle the ball. Spinning into the lane, or falling into a double team up top, etc slows the game down and makes for opportunities elsewhere on the court, but minus a few times we just didn't take advantage of them.

I would:

Take ball control out of Steven's hands and send him off screens. Rob does his work 100% by himself. We don't screen for him or anything. That pass (damn, wish we could make it more often) is ALWAYS there. The offense is 50/50 looking for Rob and watching for Gray swinging off screens or popping free. Get a space? Shoot it, Steven. Foster did what he wanted because he believed and took the daylight we gave him. Steven can do that.
All the other offensive options come within the flow of getting Rob and Steven the ball. If they play with their heads up the plays will be there (aka, Keita's easy backdoor layin).

Play Stockton more. WCC play is OK for him, he is scrappy and as far as controlling the offense he is the best we got.

Play Keita more, even start him. That kid WANTS to play and you can see it on his face. Not sure, other than Rob, if there is anyone who seems to expend as much energy to help his team. He makes few mistakes overall and he actually is capable of making that entry pass and finishing at the hoop.

Send a plane to Germany to locate Elias Harris, circa 09/10. Also, see if there is a tall blonde standing around at the airport. Answers to 'Hoff'.

Thank God it's Sat tomorrow. A chance for redemption.

cjm720
01-21-2011, 06:03 AM
Turnovers really hurt. Ugly game. It's early and all is not lost.

bigblahla
01-21-2011, 06:11 AM
Yes... all the players suck and so do the coaches. Jeez... all of you have some serious issues.

Yes, last night's game sucked. But for all of people ragging on Harris, I find it hard to fault him for the loss when he spent most of the game on the bench.
Gray... flat out had a bad game. Arop was non-existent. The whole team missed at least 15 shots from 3 feet or less.

They got out hustled... no doubt. But thank the man upstairs that is not the people on this board on the court because it seems all of you would just forfeit the next game and go home and sulk.

One, game. One. These are the same kids that half of you couldn't say enough great things about for the last 10 games. Now they all suck. Way to be bi-polar.

LIZF,

Not complaining it was a great game for SCU and not for us, they deserved the win. I stand by my observations on Harris. He has been exposed as a poor defensive player with bad handles and not the best decision maker. I'm not faulting him for this loss it's a team game but to me he is playing his way back to the Euro leagues.

Just my opinion.

Go!! Zags!!!

U Zig, I Zag
01-21-2011, 06:12 AM
Personally I think if you had someone like Delly/Mickey from SMC on your team you'd still be a top 10 team, you just need someone with a high basketball IQ running your team who isnt turnover prone and isnt a defensive liability on the other end.

I think we all agree. Problem is, our current one is 5'9" and 140lbs soaking wet and doesn't play that much and the other two still have bedtimes decided by their parents (aka, in HS). :)

jbslicer
01-21-2011, 06:16 AM
1) Better shooters
2) Guys who can put the ball on the floor and create shots
3) Guys with more "bounce."

BroncoZAG615
01-21-2011, 06:27 AM
But for all of people ragging on Harris, I find it hard to fault him for the loss when he spent most of the game on the bench.

Hell hath no fury like a Gonzaga fan scorned. Foul trouble is now known as being self-absorbed and overhyped. Throw him off the team!!!!!!!!

This one is truly on the coaches. It isn't a bashing, it is the truth. Keating was superior last night. Note their success on offense after every single timeout. He called Dowdell's number a few times on backcuts to the hoop that were just superb.

Gonzaga will struggle on the road against any team (read: Wake and Santa Clara) if they simply sit back on defense and let coaches pick them apart. Why we are so against some type of pressure defense is something that will plague me and someone from the team should have punched Few in the face when he decided it would be a good idea to switch defenses mid-possession. There's a cuteness factor this team seems to pull out when all they need is to simply ratchet things up.

gamagin
01-21-2011, 06:44 AM
Hell hath no fury like a Gonzaga fan scorned. Foul trouble is now known as being self-absorbed and overhyped. Throw him off the team!!!!!!!!

This one is truly on the coaches. It isn't a bashing, it is the truth. Keating was superior last night. Note their success on offense after every single timeout. He called Dowdell's number a few times on backcuts to the hoop that were just superb.

Gonzaga will struggle on the road against any team (read: Wake and Santa Clara) if they simply sit back on defense and let coaches pick them apart. Why we are so against some type of pressure defense is something that will plague me and someone from the team should have punched Few in the face when he decided it would be a good idea to switch defenses mid-possession. There's a cuteness factor this team seems to pull out when all they need is to simply ratchet things up.

well said. Seems like over thinking and underplaying run amok at times.

bballbeachbum
01-21-2011, 07:02 AM
surprised no mention of Troy Payne's offensive rebounds in the second half. back breakers they were, when GU was in a position to stretch their hard earned lead and was pushing hard.

gave up 10 Offensive boards total, Ten...those are like turnovers, and I thought those consecutive plays Payne made during that stretch (was it three in a row?) turned the tide. On Foster, both Manny and Mathis could not stay with him in the second half

the SCU seniors played like seniors with their last shot at GU...which they took. it was utter pandemonium in the streets after the game, horns blaring with kids screaming out their car windows, like they'd just won the world series

gamagin
01-21-2011, 07:11 AM
surprised no mention of Troy Payne's offensive rebounds in the second half. back breakers they were, when GU was in a position to stretch their hard earned lead and was pushing hard.

gave up 10 Offensive boards total, Ten...those are like turnovers, and I thought those consecutive plays Payne made during that stretch (was it three in a row?) turned the tide. On Foster, both Manny and Mathis could not stay with him in the second half

the SCU seniors played like seniors with their last shot at GU...which they took. it was utter pandemonium in the streets after the game, horns blaring with kids screaming out their car windows, like they'd just won the world series

great point re offensive boards. We gave them about 30 extra shots this way, if my math is correct. And it takes real teamwork, focus and hustle to prevent that from happening.

NotoriousZ
01-21-2011, 07:38 AM
We didn't match the intensity of SCU from the tipoff and we were playing catch up the whole game.

Turnovers, ouch.

Rebounding, hustle...SCU won that battle.

Foster had an incredible game.

cbbfanatic
01-21-2011, 08:34 AM
As for our guard situation, I think it's a mistake to presume that our incoming class will solve all our issues at the guard spot. The fact is, we will have three Freshman guards next year (presuming they don't redshirt). Maybe that's better than what we have this year, but we won't have Gray.

Good point that doesn't seem to be made enough. I seem to remember a lot of hype around guys like meech, kong, arop, gibbs, gurganious, etc... And we all know how that turned out - mixed bag. These guys might all come in and light the world on fire from day one, or it might happen as JRs, or they might not get the chance soon enough and decide to transfer... NOBODY knows. To act like the saviors are waiting in the wings though, is only setting yourself up for disappointment, and I would think most on here would learn from history

To be clear, I'm not saying I'm betting against these guys, but there seems to be a prevailing assumption that all od them will be studs, and right away

ZagsObserver
01-21-2011, 09:05 AM
The issue with the starting pg is not the lack of point production. His inability to shoot from behind the arc does create problems for GU on offense, but it's his inability to run a cohesive offense that really hurts GU on the offensive end. There will be games, as there have been this year, where GU will win in spite of this. There will be games where Meech gets a few driving layups and everyone says he had a good game. However, the fact remains that he does not allow the GU offense to flow as it must if GU is going to do anything.

zagitup
01-21-2011, 09:14 AM
Hell hath no fury like a Gonzaga fan scorned. Foul trouble is now known as being self-absorbed and overhyped. Throw him off the team!!!!!!!!

This one is truly on the coaches. It isn't a bashing, it is the truth. Keating was superior last night. Note their success on offense after every single timeout. He called Dowdell's number a few times on backcuts to the hoop that were just superb.

Gonzaga will struggle on the road against any team (read: Wake and Santa Clara) if they simply sit back on defense and let coaches pick them apart. Why we are so against some type of pressure defense is something that will plague me and someone from the team should have punched Few in the face when he decided it would be a good idea to switch defenses mid-possession. There's a cuteness factor this team seems to pull out when all they need is to simply ratchet things up.

Despite all of the bad-mouthing we heard on this board about Keating during the week, this possession Bronco refers to (with about 4-5 minutes left in the game) showed in a brief sliver of time, how he outcoached Few in this game. Few tried to throw a parlor trick at SC, but they exhibited patience and maturity and didn't let themselves get sucked in. It was at that point that SC began to pull away from the Zags.

As much as it pains me to say, Few got outcoached in this one. Sad.

GrizZAG
01-21-2011, 09:37 AM
Going on sacred ground and I know I'm gonna get hammered on this one but here goes... Hammer away if you wish but this is what I saw.

Refs set the tone early in this game. When SC got the jump on us to start, it seemed every time we tried to get aggressive the whistles were blowing WAY too easily. Yes, it was crappy ref work on both ends, but I do think once our guys began to hit three fouls it hampered their D and O both.

That stated, we expected to get homered which in my view we were. Great teams can somehow endure these difficult situations but I think this young team just was thrown off balance early and got tentative. At some point in the end, we just gave up and let them run.

We can overanalyze what happened and where this guy or that one failed, but I am still optimistic that this team is still very very good, but is still in growing pains..

bballbeachbum
01-21-2011, 10:34 AM
Hey Griz, don't know that we gave up, but generally I saw what you saw...and just couldn't overcome it

RenoZag
01-21-2011, 12:55 PM
Just reading all of the comments I think one thing one thing that GU has suffered from is missing on too many recruits. Over the past couple of years they have brought in guys who were touted as point guards but just haven't panned out (Gibbs, Villariano, Meech). GU used to be known for developing point guards. Bouldin was at GU for four years and played great. But every since recruiting him, GU never developed a replacement.

I think GU has to take a look at their program and start looking for guys who fit the system they play. Some of the guys I mentioned above were high ranking guys but for one reason or another just didn't fit. You look at the classes since Gray and Sacre and only one player has been a major factor (Harris).

Other than that you look at the classes and they have underachieved (Poling/Gibbs/Meech), (Olnyck/Kong/Arop). Those six are guys GU was counting on and it just hasn't happened.



Have to get the right horses in the barn, agreed, but once they're stabled, they have to be trained and developed. I don't see any evidence ( since the season began ) that GU's underclassmen are developing anything but inconsistency.

I'd rather see a guy ( Hart comes to mind ) that is willing to bust his ass 100% of the time vs. someone with more skills who phones it in.

Zags took SCU lightly and got burned for it.

P.S. Count me among those who think all of the time spent playing for 'national' teams this past summer apparently helped just one player: Sacre.

FlatheadZag
01-21-2011, 01:21 PM
We go only as far Elias Harris goes. When he is on his game (like last year) the Zags are a dangerous team. When he is injured or out of shape (the extra weight from previous injuries has caused him to lose some explosiveness) we become just a decent team. The difference between being the elite team that we are used to seeing and this years edition is that our best player is having a rough season.

Kiddwell
01-21-2011, 01:26 PM
We need a "gimme-the-ball, I-can-knock-down-the-three" game-in, game-out gunner.

:[

jazzdelmar
01-21-2011, 01:30 PM
ez solution: put jimmer fredette at the one and the zags are ff material, real ff material, not the puke thats been coming out of national experts who havent seen them play.....

FlyZag
01-21-2011, 01:50 PM
I disagree for one reason.

You would have to be one heck of a defensive team to compensate for 20 turnovers.



Now I'm no genius... but if the other team has 17 turnovers... our defense is only "compensating" 3 extra possessions. - right?

MickMick
01-21-2011, 02:00 PM
Now I'm no genius... but if the other team has 17 turnovers... our defense is only "compensating" 3 extra possessions. - right?

Seventeen turnovers. Sounds like a good outing for the Zag defense.

Was the Zag defense really the problem?

Since they forced 17 turnovers, apparently the Zag defense was not the primary culprit. The Zags handed over the ball and negated their defensive accomplishment.

bballbeachbum
01-21-2011, 02:22 PM
Seventeen turnovers. Sounds like a good outing for the Zag defense.

Was the Zag defense really the problem?

Since they forced 17 turnovers, apparently the Zag defense was not the primary culprit. The Zags handed over the ball and negated their defensive accomplishment.

very funny contextual use of the TO statistic. anyway

come on...it's both the D and O; when GU gave up 10 O boards, it negated their defensive accomplishment, too...but that's on the defense

OK?

MickMick
01-21-2011, 03:03 PM
very funny contextual use of the TO statistic. anyway

come on...it's both the D and O; when GU gave up 10 O boards, it negated their defensive accomplishment, too...but that's on the defense

OK?

OK

I agree with most of what you wrote.

The problems were offensive rebounding and turnovers which negated (or made to look worse than it really was) the defensive effort. In both cases, you are handing Foster the ball and yelling "shoot it!". Of course he would make the defense look bad. I can separate the two (rebounding and defense). A team can play good defense yet be medicore at rebounding.

If the Zags reverse the offensive rebound totals and hold the turnovers to single digits, they win this game walking away and no one is talking about the defense. Instead people would be simply talking about what a stud Foster is (similar to how they talked about what Keion Bell did in the kennel last year).

NEC26
01-21-2011, 03:43 PM
Yes... all the players suck and so do the coaches. Jeez... all of you have some serious issues.

Yes, last night's game sucked. But for all of people ragging on Harris, I find it hard to fault him for the loss when he spent most of the game on the bench.
Gray... flat out had a bad game. Arop was non-existent. The whole team missed at least 15 shots from 3 feet or less.

They got out hustled... no doubt. But thank the man upstairs that is not the people on this board on the court because it seems all of you would just forfeit the next game and go home and sulk.

One, game. One. These are the same kids that half of you couldn't say enough great things about for the last 10 games. Now they all suck. Way to be bi-polar.

"all of you have some serious issues."


So glad you are here to set us all straight and diagnose our mental problems. By the way the issues on this team have been here all year and its not a one game thing either.
Am I still a fan? I sure am, but it doesn't mean I can't discuss the team or the game with lots of other board members.

ZaginLaw
01-21-2011, 04:49 PM
Jazz - Jimmer is incredible.

Spot on with the D1 PG needed.

I now know how the fans of Zag opponents felt when Dickau shot those long threes.

maynard g krebs
01-21-2011, 05:19 PM
Personally I think if you had someone like Delly/Mickey from SMC on your team you'd still be a top 10 team, you just need someone with a high basketball IQ running your team who isnt turnover prone and isnt a defensive liability on the other end.

Yesterday, Bud Withers mentioned Brad Tinsley is leading the SEC in assists.

LongIslandZagFan
01-21-2011, 05:57 PM
"all of you have some serious issues."


So glad you are here to set us all straight and diagnose our mental problems. By the way the issues on this team have been here all year and its not a one game thing either.
Am I still a fan? I sure am, but it doesn't mean I can't discuss the team or the game with lots of other board members.

Oh that's right you are part of the "realist" crew.

In the end it IS just one game. The difference is the true realists, not the pollys, see it for what it is... one game. A clunker, but one game. But I guess the "realists" like you and Jazz are right... fire the coaching staff and hire the two of you... it would seem that you both know more than him.

Lets face it they rattled off a bunch of wins and the board is ready to throw them to the curb after a single conference loss. NO... that isn't being bipolar at all.

All I am saying is that MAYBE some of the posters on the board should take a step back and relax before posting. But alas... I guess its just the man trying to keep you down.

ZagsGoZags
01-21-2011, 10:21 PM
Some of Harris's mistakes remind me of Josh H's mistakes, almost as if he is caught by surprise he has the ball, caught by surprise he is double teamed, predictable moves, almost no court vision or passing to other bigs, but above all (worst last game than any this year) mind seems to be drifting.
IMHO A bucket of cold water, (translated not starting a few times) might get his head into the TEAM game, rather than his personal game.
focus
focus

NEC26
01-21-2011, 11:09 PM
Oh that's right you are part of the "realist" crew.

In the end it IS just one game. The difference is the true realists, not the pollys, see it for what it is... one game. A clunker, but one game. But I guess the "realists" like you and Jazz are right... fire the coaching staff and hire the two of you... it would seem that you both know more than him.

Lets face it they rattled off a bunch of wins and the board is ready to throw them to the curb after a single conference loss. NO... that isn't being bipolar at all.

All I am saying is that MAYBE some of the posters on the board should take a step back and relax before posting. But alas... I guess its just the man trying to keep you down.

Show me one post were I have ever said to fire anyone ever. You won't because its not there. In fact the only one who is getting all fired up (and insulting people)and overreacting is you(but thats ok cause you are an admin). I haven't said anything bad or ripped into anyone on the coaching staff or the players. I would like to see Stockton start and see our offense get off to a decent start. If thats too much for you to handle why are you here on this board??

Edit: by the way the slow starts offensively are not a one game occurrence. In fact we start off the second half slow quite often as well.

bigblahla
01-22-2011, 05:00 AM
very funny contextual use of the TO statistic. anyway

come on...it's both the D and O; when GU gave up 10 O boards, it negated their defensive accomplishment, too...but that's on the defense

OK?

When I looked at the box score, the points from the line were even at 27 but SCU took 14 more shots from the floor. We were Fostered. :confused:

Go!! Zags!!!

jazzdelmar
01-22-2011, 05:02 AM
Oh that's right you are part of the "realist" crew.

In the end it IS just one game. The difference is the true realists, not the pollys, see it for what it is... one game. A clunker, but one game. But I guess the "realists" like you and Jazz are right... fire the coaching staff and hire the two of you... it would seem that you both know more than him.

Lets face it they rattled off a bunch of wins and the board is ready to throw them to the curb after a single conference loss. NO... that isn't being bipolar at all.

All I am saying is that MAYBE some of the posters on the board should take a step back and relax before posting. But alas... I guess its just the man trying to keep you down.


LIZ, old pal, i have never said fire few. just that it is perfectly fair game to criticize him. he is not perfect. even you will stipulate to that. i think you are trying to make a point by being so extreme with anyone who does knock him, but you impair your own credibility by doing that. just my opinion, dont blast me.......

bigblahla
01-22-2011, 05:08 AM
LIZ, old pal, i have never said fire few. just that it is perfectly fair game to criticize him. he is not perfect. even you will stipulate to that. i think you are trying to make a point by being so extreme with anyone who does knock him, but you impair your own credibility by doing that. just my opinion, dont blast me.......

I agree with Jazz LIZF, you set me straight on a few things and I truly respect your opinion but sometimes you can be a real crabby appleton.

Go!! Zags!!!