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View Full Version : David Stockton.....The team tranquilizer



Reborn
01-15-2011, 06:27 PM
Once again I thought David played a great game for the time that he was in. We've seen this enough this year to know that he's for real. What surprised me was his good defense on Ireland. He did a better job than Meech. The team just looks so good offensively when he's on the court.

I was just thrilled by his fire and his effort on the court tonight, and I thought it spread throughout the team. What I noticed is how Steven becomes more of a scorer when David is in because David can run the offense. Also David knows how to deliver a pass, and he MUST be guarded because he will shoot that 3.

NEC26
01-15-2011, 06:31 PM
Our offense struggled mightily all game(with the exception of when we fed Sacre down low) till Stock came in. He comes in and suddenly we build a 12 point lead (our largest of the game at that point). Some on this board like to argue that +- means nothing but in the case of a point guard I would totally disagree.

kclubfounder
01-15-2011, 06:38 PM
Despite how loud and obnoxious the anti-Stockton crowd has been all year, I suspect they will have a sudden case of laryngitis tonight.

kclubfounder
01-15-2011, 06:43 PM
Wait! Let me take a guess at what the anti-Stockton idiots will say.

"He looks good against weak opponents like LMU. Put him against REAL athletes and he can't keep up."

Of course, those "weak" LMU players were right in the game in the 2nd half until Stockton came in. Of course, Stockton HAS held up more than admirably against the "real athletes" on higher ranked teams.

It doesn't matter. Once a stubborn fool has stated what he believes to be a truth, that stubborn fool will cling to it regardless of how obvious it becomes that he is wrong.

bballbeachbum
01-15-2011, 06:55 PM
:cheers:

NEC26
01-15-2011, 06:56 PM
A little feisty tonight Kclubfounder! There are two things stated about Stockton that haven't held up though. First is that he gets abused on defense which simply is not the case. While he is small and I'm sure opponents will be able to exploit this every once in a while the Zags DO NOT struggle defensively when he comes in.
Second is that he can only play well against less athletic players(which could be said about anyone really) but this is also false in my opinion and oh by the way LMU is actually very athletic and all their guards are pretty tall.

MDABE80
01-15-2011, 06:56 PM
Easy there KC. Nobody's been on David's case for months now. What's more uncanny is this..and I haven't seen this before ...this kid seems to be thrown into the difficult periods where mayhem is progressing.
He gets in, passes get made, defense is better, layinns and dunks happen.and the next thing is that the kids are playing like a "team" again.


It's almost like he's a pure steadying influence. Steadys things, get them on track and goes out after 10 minutes or so. Not seen this before anywhere.

bballbeachbum
01-15-2011, 07:00 PM
whatever...he changed the game tonight

Enjoy! tonight!

WallaWallaZag
01-15-2011, 07:05 PM
A little feisty tonight Kclubfounder! There are two things stated about Stockton that haven't held up though. First is that he gets abused on defense which simply is not the case. While he is small and I'm sure opponents will be able to exploit this every once in a while the Zags DO NOT struggle defensively when he comes in.
Second is that he can only play well against less athletic players(which could be said about anyone really) but this also false in my opinion and oh by the way LMU is actually very athletic and all their guards are pretty tall.

i've been on stockton a few times for defense, but i think he's fine against the shorter guards, even if they are more athletic...especially shorter pg's that don't shoot real well. he played decent defense today though he got manhandled on an offensive rebound putback. of course ireland had 5 offensive rebounds and 10 total so meech didn't keep him off the glass either...i don't think pg's are used to having to block out almost every possession since the opposing pg is usually getting back on d and not trying to o-board.

kclubfounder
01-15-2011, 07:07 PM
Abe,

You are more in tune with this site than me. Do you really believe it's been months since anyone was on David's case? Do I really need to take the time to prove you wrong? Come on. Look at some of the Stockton threads and tell me there aren't some loud detractors. I dare you.

webspinnre
01-15-2011, 07:31 PM
I think most of the detractors have been fairly quiet lately. Making brief comments about his limitations (and lets face it, he does have some), but at the same time being very appreciative of what he adds to the team (running the offense, court vision, calming influence), all as a walk-on RS freshman.

Reborn
01-15-2011, 07:46 PM
but at the same time being very appreciative of what he adds to the team (running the offense, court vision, calming influence), all as a walk-on RS freshman.

I think I forget at times that he is a walk-on Freshman. Pretty outstanding, and very confident person.

Nevtelen
01-15-2011, 07:56 PM
There is no question that he can be a defensive liability (Xavier abused him when he was in, for example), but I was very very impressed with how well he played Ireland. He was definitely as good as Meech on him, from what I remember. I agree with those who put that run at his feet (at least to some extent) - he changes the complexion of the team for the better when he's in there. He was the sub of the game for me tonight - I thought if he got in LMU would abuse him, but he really held his own and then some.

NEC26
01-15-2011, 08:07 PM
There is no question that he can be a defensive liability (Xavier abused him when he was in, for example), but I was very very impressed with how well he played Ireland. He was definitely as good as Meech on him, from what I remember. I agree with those who put that run at his feet (at least to some extent) - he changes the complexion of the team for the better when he's in there. He was the sub of the game for me tonight - I thought if he got in LMU would abuse him, but he really held his own and then some.

You can say Xavier abused Stockton (I don't agree at all) but even if you were to say that they did the team actually played better when he came in that game. I believe they gained 12 points in the first half when he came in.
So he must be doing something right.
This Garbage about him getting abused on defence is getting old and just doesn't hold up to reality.

Baseline
01-15-2011, 08:34 PM
I say, thank God we have Stockton! Without this red shirted Freshman walk on we would have real problems when Meech goes out. I feel better seeing him come into the game than Carter.

zag buddy
01-15-2011, 08:36 PM
I think we are very lucky to have both Meech and Stockton. They bring Different assets to the point guard position.How do you prepare against that.

bballbeachbum
01-15-2011, 08:40 PM
I think we are very lucky to have both Meech and Stockton. They bring Different assets to the point guard position.How do you prepare against that.

ding ding ding! and play against it. same can be said for many positions on the floor, yes? lots of minutes availble nightly depending on various things.

guys keep stepping up when called upon, that's happening

MDABE80
01-15-2011, 08:42 PM
Abe,

You are more in tune with this site than me. Do you really believe it's been months since anyone was on David's case? Do I really need to take the time to prove you wrong? Come on. Look at some of the Stockton threads and tell me there aren't some loud detractors. I dare you.


I'm not one of them and am a fan of our boy. I don't read the negative posts toword David. I think they're full of sh^t. To each his own I guess. I've been watching him since he was little. I know there are some deficiencies of speed and stature....he's a kid who works hard, has a good attitude and he'll not disappoint because of effort. He's as good as he can possibly be.....for now..he'll get better. He already is...

maynard g krebs
01-15-2011, 09:18 PM
This Garbage about him getting abused on defence is getting old and just doesn't hold up to reality.

+1. X as a team scored 23 in the 1st half of that game, and if memory serves, 12 or those in DS's 11 min. Perception is not always reality.

Nevtelen
01-15-2011, 09:46 PM
You can say Xavier abused Stockton (I don't agree at all) but even if you were to say that they did the team actually played better when he came in that game. I believe they gained 12 points in the first half when he came in.
So he must be doing something right.
This Garbage about him getting abused on defence is getting old and just doesn't hold up to reality.

I don't remember exactly when this was in the game, but it was some point right after Stockton came in - basically X managed to get Holloway isolated on Stockton 3 or 4 trips in a row and Stockton got scored on every single time. Nothing wrong with that - I don't expect Stockton to be able to stop Holloway on D. But you can't ignore the fact that he's just going to be a liability defensively against some players based on his stature. He's a lot quicker than he looks and with the way he kept up with Ireland tonight, I don't think it's a speed issue at all. Basically, when Stockton has been able to guard a guy who's of similar height (like Paige or even Penn IIRC vs Ok St or Ireland tonight) he does fine. Put him on (or be forced to have him guard) a taller guard and he'll struggle.

I like Stockton a lot. I think he's a solid player and he has a ton of very positive qualities. There's a reason he's seeing the kind of minutes he is as a RS freshman. I do think that in many ways the team plays better when he comes in (I said so in my post), but every player has his limitations - Meech has no jumpshot beyond 5 feet. That's one of his limitations. Stockton has limitations, too. I'm not saying he's a crappy player or anything. Few just has to weigh his limitations against his value and make a decision about his PT.

Zag 77
01-15-2011, 09:53 PM
3 points ( 2 each by Goodson and Carter). He is not in there for point production. I think he manages to win over a few more critics each time he is out there.

soccerdud
01-16-2011, 12:16 AM
let me start by saying i love stockton.

however, there is a group that loudly points out that stockton is a liability on defense. this is a position i agree with. there is another group, just as loud, who points out the +/- when stockton is in as evidence that his defense isn't nearly as bad as the first group likes to think.

however, tonight i finally managed to reconcile the two positions. when stockton comes in, he typically goes on the least threatening offensive guard on the other team (though obviously not always); these players take advantage of his defense by driving. the result is that the other team's worst offensive guard is trying to finish in amongst our trees, and often misses or has their shot blocked. seriously, i want to know stockton's man's layup % made (im betting it's low) and % of other team's possesion's used (i'm betting it's high)-- but i know i've seen it happen multiple times in every game he's had significant time this season. essentially, stockton's weakness (which exists and, imo, is rather pronounced), feeds into our strength. i would likewise wager that the other team's % possessions used on 3-pointers (which is obviously one of our defensive weaknesses as a team) goes down significantly with david in.

i REALLY believe that this is a case of one player's weakness feeding so well into the other strengths of the team that it is hidden on the stat sheet-- and often times other teams attempting to take advantage of this end up struggling because of it.

zag67
01-16-2011, 07:08 AM
I think that Few an dthe staff is doing a great job in playing all of our point guards. Tonight I would like to show the stats of Meech, DS, and Carter versus Ireland:

Stat GU point guards Ireland (played 39 minutes)
Rebounds 2 10 (5,5) but how many fast breaks did we get
Point 7 10
Shooting 1 for 2 4 for 15
Steals 2 0
Assists 6 2
Turnovers 1 3

Using those stats I think that as a "unit" our point guard totally how played theirs. Yes each of ours has some flaws, but are getting better. I think that even MC played better than we have seen before. Hopefully by the end of the year it will be even a stronger "unit".

Zag 77
01-16-2011, 09:01 PM
Another way to say "point guard by committee" is this comment from another thread:


Our TEAM is made up of role players. How they perform in their roles so goes the TEAM.

Virginia Zags Fan
01-17-2011, 07:26 AM
I agree with Zag 67. Our PG by committee is working very effectively right now. I have seen tremendous growth by Meech and David this season (and the whole team for that matter). What an incredible job by this coaching staff and kudos to the players for their hard work and determination.

Playing time will be interesting to watch next year. One thing is for certain. Whether or not Stocks is the starting PG, he is going to come in and provide outstanding minutes for the next three years.

It will be interesting to see how the SMC guards hold up for 40 minutes when they are constantly hounded by Meech, David, Steven, Mathis, Mathis, Manny and Marquise. While we may or may not win this meeting or the next down in Morega, our team's upside is greater than any other WCC team heading into the WCC tournament.

Come March, if you were a 1-4 seed in the big dance, would you want to face our guys in the first game? No way!

U Zig, I Zag
01-17-2011, 11:01 AM
May I suggest a chant for when things are out of control and we need some Stockton in there:

"Klonopin, Klonopin, Klonopin!"

sonuvazag
01-17-2011, 11:04 AM
May I suggest a chant for when things are out of control and we need some Stockton in there:

"Klonopin, Klonopin, Klonopin!"
lol. don't forget to include known side effects in the cheer like there's a possibility that defensive liability may occur.

U Zig, I Zag
01-17-2011, 11:23 AM
lol. don't forget to include known side effects in the cheer like there's a possibility that defensive liability may occur.

I didn't see any large farm equipment or machinery like a Zamboni when I was at K2 last week but just in case:
When Stock is in, don't use the thrasher or the combine!

sonuvazag
01-17-2011, 11:35 AM
nice one, u zig

ZagFanInNC
01-17-2011, 12:02 PM
Once again I thought David played a great game for the time that he was in. We've seen this enough this year to know that he's for real. What surprised me was his good defense on Ireland. He did a better job than Meech. The team just looks so good offensively when he's on the court.

I was just thrilled by his fire and his effort on the court tonight, and I thought it spread throughout the team. What I noticed is how Steven becomes more of a scorer when David is in because David can run the offense. Also David knows how to deliver a pass, and he MUST be guarded because he will shoot that 3.

Im not sure if you have ever seen him shoot a 3... im pretty sure other teams arent exactly game planning for that ugly shot. If that is your argument then Carter should be playing cause he can shoot a hell of a lot better than either meech or stock.

That being said at the beginning of the year we had some pretty shakey point guards. Now all three have improved and I dont mind seeing two of them on the court at the same time no matter which two they are. People are getting all worked up like Stockton should be starting over Meech, to me I could care less who starts, they should all get a decent amount of PT.

ALL OF OUR PGS HAVE DIFFERENT STRENGHTS AND WEAKNESSES, THIS IS A STUPID ARGUMENT.

mdZag23
01-17-2011, 02:04 PM
are too young to realize that his Father had the same knocks against him when he was at Gonzaga and in the NBA.

I think he turned out fine!

This blather is getting rather old and I wish most of you would go back to class or work.

The kid competes, period! All we can ask and we have to trust in MF and staff that he is deserving of the PT he is getting.

Every player has their strengths and weaknessess.

buenaparkzag
01-17-2011, 02:29 PM
I did not miss any of GU's home game while I was at GU because I wanted to see Stockton's performance. Sine then I hardly missed any of GU's games and Utah Jazz's games if they were televised. The thing I want to say is David is good. Let him be the normal Zag. Don't bring he is being relatively short as college D1 player and so forth. David is just a fine college basketball player.

ZagLawGrad
01-20-2011, 07:40 PM
Stockton played with determination tonight against SC. Not sold on him being much more than a limited role player, but he gives it his all when he's on the court.

And that's something that needs to rub off on his teammates.

gonwick
01-20-2011, 07:58 PM
This may sound crazy, but thinking to the start of this game, and many others, the Zags tend to start games terribly. Maybe having a deliberate focus on running the offense to start the game would be useful. Starting doesn't necessarily mean Stockton getting more minutes than Meech, by the way. This game felt lost about three minutes in. I think we had nearly as many turnovers as made baskets at the end. Nothing positive to take from tonight, so maybe they can try to work on preventing a similar debacle in the future.

U Zig, I Zag
01-21-2011, 06:19 AM
This may sound crazy, but thinking to the start of this game, and many others, the Zags tend to start games terribly. Maybe having a deliberate focus on running the offense to start the game would be useful. Starting doesn't necessarily mean Stockton getting more minutes than Meech, by the way. This game felt lost about three minutes in. I think we had nearly as many turnovers as made baskets at the end. Nothing positive to take from tonight, so maybe they can try to work on preventing a similar debacle in the future.

Yes.

We can't start the game with TO after TO. Stockton, despite his faults plays with his head up and seems to calm the team down. Hell, play him to the first dead ball... couldn't be worse than last night.

kclubfounder
01-21-2011, 06:29 AM
This may sound crazy, but thinking to the start of this game, and many others, the Zags tend to start games terribly. Maybe having a deliberate focus on running the offense to start the game would be useful. Starting doesn't necessarily mean Stockton getting more minutes than Meech, by the way. This game felt lost about three minutes in. I think we had nearly as many turnovers as made baskets at the end. Nothing positive to take from tonight, so maybe they can try to work on preventing a similar debacle in the future.

It doesn't sound crazy to me. Not at all.

NEC26
01-21-2011, 03:51 PM
This may sound crazy, but thinking to the start of this game, and many others, the Zags tend to start games terribly. Maybe having a deliberate focus on running the offense to start the game would be useful. Starting doesn't necessarily mean Stockton getting more minutes than Meech, by the way. This game felt lost about three minutes in. I think we had nearly as many turnovers as made baskets at the end. Nothing positive to take from tonight, so maybe they can try to work on preventing a similar debacle in the future.

I said the exact same thing weeks ago. Get the offense going bring in Meech to do his thing on defense bring energy so on so forth.