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View Full Version : Portland is better than St Marys



jaydee77
01-09-2011, 11:20 AM
First time seeing Portland last night. I have seen the Gaels about three times. In my mind, the Pilots are superior. Gaels have minimal inside presence. Sikma & Knutson will pose match up problems for St. Marys. Mitrovic is as good a shooter (much quicker) than Delavedova or Mc Connell. If Portland can neutralize St Mary's guards, could be a long night for the Gaels.

Hoopaholic
01-09-2011, 12:26 PM
same was said of Portland before they arrived.

Actually Portlands guards have taken care of the ball better than SMC guards so far this year.

McConnel is averaging 2 turnovers a game
Della is averaging 2 turnovers per game

Portland: Mitrovic 1.9 Stohl 1.4 and waterford 1.5


I see similar types of play from these two teams, the difference for me is Portland has a much better inside game than SMC from what I seen so far this year.....going to love the battles coming up.

We have had several games in single digit turnovers which is very good at the style and pace we play at.


Going to be fun

BobZag
01-09-2011, 01:10 PM
There's something to be said for "Been there, done that." SMC has been there, done that. Portland has not. Until Portland shows they can win the big games, like SMC has shown, I gotta go with SMC.

Funny, though. Richard Fox said UP was better, too, and I didn't even ask him, he said it out of the blue. I didn't reply, my voice was pretty much gone.

cggonzaga
01-09-2011, 01:41 PM
Just don't see it.

1. Gonzaga
2. SMC
3. Portland/SCU

jaydee77
01-09-2011, 01:52 PM
The St Mary's games I have seen really leads me to believe that Delavedova in particular will have trouble getting his shot off against a quicker defender. I think he and McConnell will get worn down against our guards. Last year in Moraga, Gray simply manhandled Delavedova. I realize the Gaels can score but with their thin bench and being forced to play both ends of the floor against quality teams, they will run out of gas.

jaydee77
01-09-2011, 01:58 PM
The St Mary's games I have seen really leads me to believe that Delavedova in particular will have trouble getting his shot off against a quicker defender. I think he and McConnell will get worn down against our guards. Last year in Moraga, Gray simply manhandled Delavedova. Against Portland, McConnell and Delavedova will have to lock down the Portland guards. Having to expend energy on both ends of the floor will take their toll. Also, after playing in the Kennel on Thursday and turning around to play the Pilots at home is a tough task. I think the Pilots win big in Portland against the Gaels. Gaels will have two conference loses before we have one.

gamagin
01-09-2011, 02:02 PM
when it comes to us. Only instead of being neighbors who don't like sharing the attention one team gets over another, we are rivals for the league crown and the guaranteed NCAA bid. Forever.

And the only real test of who, besides GU, will get a shot at the NCAA, for the most part and over the last 11 years, involves defeating the Zags.

Even in a worst case scenario, if you are in the top half of the WCC, you can still get to the NCAA if you can win the league tourney at the end of the year. As we have seen.

So to any serious team wanting WCC respect, the road to that place necessarily passes through GU. A win can make a season (SCU beat us in K2 on sheer willpower) but it can also mean a chance to dance.

RockandRollJames
01-09-2011, 03:35 PM
No way José! Those Saint Marys sons of guns are better!

MDABE80
01-09-2011, 03:46 PM
NO.

MickMick
01-09-2011, 04:12 PM
The Portland game revealed a lot to me about the Zags. The Zags have really improved. They are also much better offensively with a healthy Hoff to call on. Meech has improved the most over the last month.

SMC is going to have to deal with some defensive pressure. Zags can force turnovers in bunches and that was the difference in the Portland game.

Similar to Portland, I expect SMC will rack up fouls like a pinball machine against Rob and Elias. It is what happens when you can't match up inside. Of course SMC fans will blame the calls for the loss.

I expect the GU/SMC game to play out like the Portland game.

maynard g krebs
01-09-2011, 04:27 PM
For SMC, Mickey, Delly, and Holt are all playmakers. Stohl and Mitrovic are great shooters, but pretty much one trick ponies. If on the same roster, I don't see Waterford taking minutes from the SMC pg's. St. Mary's guards are more versatile and just better overall offensively, making them a more dangerous team than UP.

I think the most likely outcome is the Zags get a close win in Portland, but split with St. Mary's.

zagsfanforlife
01-09-2011, 05:38 PM
I have seen St Marys in person (At LMU) and three times on TV. I have seen Portland 4 times on TV. St Marys is a good 5-10 points better. Better guard play (by far), better wing play, and the inside game of the Gaels is only getting better. Mitchell Young has improved dramatically, and Kenton Walker and Paul WIlliams are playing very solid ball as well.

I have seen every Zag game, every LMU game, and most St. Marys and Portland games. Here is how I would honestly rank the teams in our conference. In my honest and impartial opinion I would go

1.St. Mary's
2.Gonzaga
3.Portland
4.LMU or San Francisco

gamagin
01-09-2011, 06:18 PM
I have seen St Marys in person (At LMU) and three times on TV. I have seen Portland 4 times on TV. St Marys is a good 5-10 points better. Better guard play (by far), better wing play, and the inside game of the Gaels is only getting better. Mitchell Young has improved dramatically, and Kenton Walker and Paul WIlliams are playing very solid ball as well.

I have seen every Zag game, every LMU game, and most St. Marys and Portland games. Here is how I would honestly rank the teams in our conference. In my honest and impartial opinion I would go

1.St. Mary's
2.Gonzaga
3.Portland
4.LMU or San Francisco

some examples of how the gaels will beat us, where/why we can't beat them, in your opinion, or how we might break down vs. SMC, etc. ?

I haven't seen the newest version play but have looked at their stats and read most of their game reports & followed their progress.

I like our chances. alot. Inside- out. depth. defense (cutting down on their open shots at a minimum) & experience.

The only thing that scares me about them and it's the same very year, is their ability to play us with a chip on their shoulders, and a hunger and a thirst to play every second of every minute vs. us and simply try to will their way to victory when we are their opponent.

When they've beaten us, it seems to me, it has happened because they wanted it more, not because they were better. I don't know how we prepare to be that hungry when we play them, but we should be prepared to match their intensity or we could lose.

thanks,

NEC26
01-09-2011, 06:26 PM
While Reveno is clearly a good coach and they have an improving program Portland is not better than SMC this year. SMC has simply outstanding guard play and will give GU everything they can handle this year. Portland will give us a game at their house but I think we beat them twice this year. As for SMC I think they beat us at their house this year( by no means do I think this is a lock however).
Having watched SMC several games I am amazed how efficient they are on offense. Simply put they are a pleasure to watch and remind me of the late 90's GU teams.

EuroZag2010
01-09-2011, 06:26 PM
I'm a homer zags will take the WCC again this year

JPtheBeasta
01-09-2011, 06:46 PM
I'm a homer zags will take the WCC again this year

As you should be... I don't think it will matter if SMC is better than Portland when we sweep them both this year :) I am looking forward to SMC being exposed by Vanderbilt right before they play us, and then humbled shortly thereafter at the Kennel. They rely heavily on their starters and will have a terrible time handling any kind of foul trouble. Their turnover numbers are good, but became very average against the better teams they faced. A poster on the Gael's board called their offense "shock and awe" but I doubt the Zags will be shocked or awed by what they bring to the table, as the only person they don't have answer for on defense graduated last year.

The only way I see the Zags losing (assuming A+ effort by both teams) is insanely good 3-point shooting by SMC or long droughts on offense by the Zags.

bigblahla
01-09-2011, 06:49 PM
A month ago I was posting that the Gaels were a superior TEAM to our Zags not better athletes but a more cohesive unit. They still are but the gap has narrowed considerably to the point that I believe this is the year RB becomes subject to the Holland effect where you know your team is good enough but they just can't beat the Zags.

We have the size and athleticism so as much as they want to think otherwise shut down their guards and their goose is cooked. Their post players are good but not good enough.

Just my opinion.

Go!! Zags!!!

WallaWallaZag
01-09-2011, 09:35 PM
as others have mentioned, the gaels are better all around guards...while both teams have great shooters, smc guards are better passers and better at driving to the basket. portland also doesn't have anyone even close to being able to do what rob jones does at smc. he can match the athleticism of the zag wings.

also, smc has more quality depth than portland...several posters here have talked about the superior depth at gonzaga, but saint mary's has a very solid eight man rotation...nine if jorden page was playing. they bring their star freshman combo guard stephen holt off the bench (kind of a mini-steven gray clone) along with mitchell young and kenton walker in the post.

fedwayzag
01-09-2011, 09:46 PM
I really think it comes down to how the game is called by the refs. It it is called close we could be in trouble as they are also outstanding free throw shooters. If the refs let them play, we win.

2wiceright
01-09-2011, 10:54 PM
As you should be... I don't think it will matter if SMC is better than Portland when we sweep them both this year :) I am looking forward to SMC being exposed by Vanderbilt right before they play us, and then humbled shortly thereafter at the Kennel. They rely heavily on their starters and will have a terrible time handling any kind of foul trouble. Their turnover numbers are good, but became very average against the better teams they faced. A poster on the Gael's board called their offense "shock and awe" but I doubt the Zags will be shocked or awed by what they bring to the table, as the only person they don't have answer for on defense graduated last year.

The only way I see the Zags losing (assuming A+ effort by both teams) is insanely good 3-point shooting by SMC or long droughts on offense by the Zags.

+1 They won't be the first team we've exposed this year. I think JP hit the nail on the head. This years team has the capacity to shut down (or greatly disrupt) SMC guards. If we play very good both games and keep the turnovers to a MINIMUM- a sweep is likely- IMO! :drool:

DixieZag
01-09-2011, 11:14 PM
I think Portland may be better - but others have seen SMC more, so I am not that confident - I would ask people who believe that SMC is better, how would SMC defend our bigs the way that Portland did? SMC may have better all around guard play, but no one is saying they have better bigs, are they?

It was their inside defense that kept Portland within reach in the beginning of the second half.

I also believe we are better than we think we are, we are playing relentless Defense, we are big, we are fast, and each and every game, someone steps up and does something to get them over, and we never know who it will be. Rob has his worst game in a while, KO becomes a rebounding power forward. Manny Arop gets fewer rebounds b/c he was riding the back of their guards the entire time he was out there (and he hit a couple of big threes).

EuroZag2010
01-10-2011, 12:11 AM
We can all sit here and contemplate which team is better but until the games have been played nothing is for sure, no one thought we could lose to LMU and USF last year but we did, we also blew out st marys at home but then they returned the favor in the championship. I really thought after that convincing blow out of them last year that we would win the championship in Vegas it just shows u it's anybodys game.

Dixie: I agree with your points we r better then what we have been showing and the improvement we have made is awesome but we have to learn to play 40 min even if we r up by 30 at half we can't let opponents get back into games.

I believe zags have the talent and capability to win the WCC !!

1973Zag
01-10-2011, 05:29 AM
I agree with FedZag, comes down to how they call the game.(as usual in the WCC) They don't seem to "Let us play" much in this league. close win at home, but at SMC--foul trouble for bigs+lots of FT's= advantage SMC. Possibly same at Portland. JMHO

Zag4Hire
01-10-2011, 07:27 AM
You can point at a lot of stats to make your point and you may or may not be wrong. I would take a look at FTA and FT%. Sure, SMC and UP bang out 3 balls but if those aren't falling, you can get in trouble. I always like a good free throw shooting team and a team that puts offensive pressure on the other team. FTs are great for so many reasons: get other team's good players in foul trouble, free shot at the bucket to earn some points, make other team stand and watch lead grow or shrink, etc. SMC and UP aren't creating many opportunities at the line and GU appears to be getting to the line and making the most of it. For example, Rob only made 1 FG but ended up with 9 points. One thing to note is during the SMC-LMU telecast, Miles Simon said in speaking with Bennett about his rotation that he likes to keep to about 8-9 guys. I can easily see SMC facing issues with a couple components getting into foul trouble but I have faith in GU's bench stepping in and stepping up.

FlyZag
01-10-2011, 09:16 AM
I would ask people who believe that SMC is better, how would SMC defend our bigs the way that Portland did? SMC may have better all around guard play, but no one is saying they have better bigs, are they?



I feel that Rob Jones has the potential to give EH all kinds of trouble. EH has struggled against big physical players. And I think that Rob Jones can also score on EH as I think EH at times has proven to be a bit passive defensively. Of course the way the game is called will greatly determine how this match up goes.

Sacre does have a slight advantage over the SMC #5 either Walker, Williams or Young offensively. But the way SMC runs their offense by spreading the floor it will neutralize our defensive advantage at this position. As they don't run their offense through their #5 by design.

So to answer your question Jones has the potential to take EH out of the game either by fouls or frustration. But Sacre is clearly a better offensive player than SMC is defensively at the #5. That is our advantage. Can Sacre keep from getting cheap fouls and stay on the floor? Can he quickly recognize the double team and pass the ball without turning it over? Or will he bring the ball down while he s-l-o-w-l-y makes his move so the double/triple team swipes it away? If he can play like he's been playing over the last 6/7 games we have a good shot to win.

The other side is can we guard their guards? Portland lit us up for 58% from 3. And Stohl at least once drove right past Gray. If Stohl can drive past Gray, I'm sure SMC will be able to. Not every time... but occasionally. And I don't think we can count on SMC to turn it over 20 times like UP did.

If we limit their 3pt % to < 40% and Sacre can pass out of the double team I think we can have a good night. The only team they have faced that was similar to the Zags is SDSU. A quazi rivalry game for them. They only shot 39% in that game and that was key for a SDSU win.

Interesting stat: SDSU only outrebounded SMC by 1. While SDSU outrebounded us by 7 in the Kennel. Also against SDSU our "bigs" scored 26 of our 76 pts or 34% of our offense. SMC's "Bigs" scored 32 of 55 pts or 58% of their offense.That should tell you something about the SMC "Bigs". Don't underestimate them. Yes they are good.

Baldwinzag
01-10-2011, 09:35 AM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_DfbUPDqtPVI/SHs1RLYaJ-I/AAAAAAAAAOE/9p5GCRcGNVQ/s400/i-want-to-believe.jpg

but no, they're not. St. Mary's has accomplished so much more its barely worth a discussion. Their guard play alone is on another level entirely.

If seeing is believing, then we'll know soon enough -- Jan 27th.

SMC is ranked Top-5 nationally in PPG, APG, & FG% against formidable opponents and still shoot 41% from 3pt as a team to boot.

JPtheBeasta
01-10-2011, 07:33 PM
Interesting stat: SDSU only outrebounded SMC by 1. While SDSU outrebounded us by 7 in the Kennel. Also against SDSU our "bigs" scored 26 of our 76 pts or 34% of our offense. SMC's "Bigs" scored 32 of 55 pts or 58% of their offense.That should tell you something about the SMC "Bigs". Don't underestimate them. Yes they are good.

76 points for GU vs 55 points for SMC against SDSU. Hmmm.... I also think that stat is somewhat misleading at this point in the year because Elias was not healthy/playing well at that time in the year.

I agree with you that Jones could be a wild card, and Elias can be exposed on defense by better post players.

Once and Future Zag
01-10-2011, 08:14 PM
not a chance on earth that Portland is better than SMC. Portland's defense is mediocre, SMC's is pretty solid.

Portland's offense is good, SMC's is great.

WallaWallaZag
01-10-2011, 09:42 PM
for all the keyboard jockeys and stat nerds who have never actually seen smc play and want to know why some think smc is better than portland...the difference is in how dynamic the gael players and offense can be.

portland's post guys are decent and crafty in the post but they're not going to do any damage making plays on the perimeter or take you off the dribble and get your bigs in foul trouble...though smc doesn't have anyone who can board like sikma.

portland's guards can shoot it but they're really not going to break you down off the dribble and make plays and draw fouls. if you need some kind of zag comparison to understand, smc's guards are more like a couple of steven grays while portland's guards are more like a couple of mathis monninghoffs.

portland doesn't really have true 3's or wings who can play both inside and out...st.mary's has players that can attack off the dribble and play both inside and on the perimeter...like i said...more dynamic or essentially more talented overall.

MickMick
01-10-2011, 10:06 PM
for all the keyboard jockeys and stat nerds who have never actually seen smc play and want to know why some think smc is better than portland...the difference is in how dynamic the gael players and offense can be.

portland's post guys are decent and crafty in the post but they're not going to do any damage making plays on the perimeter or take you off the dribble and get your bigs in foul trouble...though smc doesn't have anyone who can board like sikma.

portland's guards can shoot it but they're really not going to break you down off the dribble and make plays and draw fouls. if you need some kind of zag comparison to understand, smc's guards are more like a couple of steven grays while portland's guards are more like a couple of mathis monninghoffs.

portland doesn't really have true 3's or wings who can play both inside and out...st.mary's has players that can attack off the dribble and play both inside and on the perimeter...like i said...more dynamic or essentially more talented overall.

I like Portland's bigs better. I like Knutson, Hannibal, and Sikma as a group, better than what SMC has to offer as a collective group. As much as Rob Jones plays outside the paint from a half court set (and even Steindal for that matter), I like the Pilot bigs better. I understand that it is part of the SMC offense to move the players around and it works well for them, but I only have to look at what a good front court like SDSU's did to them to know where they can be exploited.

Knutson is much more coordinated than his appearance suggests and he is a terrific shot blocker. Sikma is a consistent double/double guy. Hannibal has legit size and can score.

This is why there is a legit argument that Portland can match up with SMC.

DixieZag
01-11-2011, 08:01 AM
I have to agree with Mick Mick. I was so impressed with Portland's bigs, they were BIG, not skinny, they played very intelligently and they did what no team has been able to do all year; they did not let Rob get position down low in the box and were athletic enough to turn and front him if he did start to get low.

Maybe I am biased b/c I sat so close to them, I just expected Sikma and then a bunch of tall pines around him, not so - they are very athletic and strong. Plus Raveno is taller than most of them and played the 4/5 at Stanford and has them coached up as well as anyone can.

Bogozags
01-11-2011, 09:10 AM
SMC is a very dangerous team.

It will be really tough to beat SMC, whether at GU or at SMC. It will come down to our defense and how we play their guards.

We cannot let their guards penetrate. They are most dangerous at that point, because they penetrate, weak side comes to help and the pass goes into the opposite corner for a 3pt attempt. They normally like the PF or C come to the right wing area and work the pick & roll. When the guard gets through they go directly to the paint and then make the pass to that opposite corner. If we allow them to do so time and time again, we will be fighting and up-hill-battle all game. This is how they beat their opponents. They have super guard play and they don’t turn the ball over either.

Sure, we will win the battle inside but the outside play is key. Our guards are going to need to play great defense. Meech, SG and KM will have to be on their game; however, with KM in we lose scoring and rebounding. With MM we lose defense and with Manny in, we have scoring, rebounding and defense BUT which Manny shows up. He has not been consistent game in/game out.

Rob Jones is an inside and outside threat and EH will have to play really hard and within himself to be effective. We need his offensive abilities, so I hope he will be able to remain out of foul trouble.

Sacre has really improved tremendously this year. He doesn’t commit the dumb fouls and his FT shooting is just awesome…if we could just get him to keep the ball up above his shoulders! We will have to pound the ball inside all game and get them into foul trouble.

We will need to limit our TO’s as we need to take advantage of every possession.

I have us winning at home but our lone conference loss will be at SMC.

UberZagFan
01-11-2011, 12:06 PM
Hannibal has legit size and can score.

Plus it's really cool to say his name.

Reborn
01-11-2011, 01:26 PM
The yourthfulness of their point guards will hurt the Pilots just as it did against Gonzaga. Their starter had a very good game, hitting both from the inside and out. He was causing some damage. Then suddeny, as the game was heading into the last final quarter and Gonzaga started putting more pressure on him, he began to make one mistake after another. I think he turned the ball over four times in the last five minutes, where Gonzaga build a lead from just 3 points to 17. St. Mary's on the other hand has excellent guards and seldom turn the ball over.

Portland will win the battle of the boards, and I think Portland's post players are better. I think Sikma will be able to defend Jones. I was very impressed with Sikma. He is very quick for a man his size. So is Jones; so this will be a very good match-up which I believe Sikma will win.

I think Portland and St. Mary's will split during the regular season, and will play in the WCC tournament. I think by that time the youthfulness of the point guards will disappear. I have a sneaky feeling that Portland beats St. Mary's in WCC tournament and earns a trip to the NCAA tournament in March. I think they will play with the same motivaiton in the conference tournament that St. Mary's played with last year. I think the WCC may have 3 teams in this year. The reason I pick Portland to beat St. Mary's is because I think they play better defense and rebound better. They will defend the 3 pt shot better against St. Mary's because St. Mary's does not have the post players that Gonzaga has.

jaydee77
01-11-2011, 02:18 PM
To much is made of Portlands 3 point % against us. Six games prior, Pilots averaged over 20 3 point attempts per game. 12 against us. The shots were not there to take. Delavedova is a spot up shooter. Our defense on the perimiter is improving and if we play solid defense we should roll.

MickMick
01-11-2011, 04:29 PM
I have to agree with Mick Mick. I was so impressed with Portland's bigs, they were BIG, not skinny, they played very intelligently and they did what no team has been able to do all year; they did not let Rob get position down low in the box and were athletic enough to turn and front him if he did start to get low.

Maybe I am biased b/c I sat so close to them, I just expected Sikma and then a bunch of tall pines around him, not so - they are very athletic and strong. Plus Raveno is taller than most of them and played the 4/5 at Stanford and has them coached up as well as anyone can.

It is the Portland coach, Reveno (sp?). At Stanford, coaching bigs was his specialty. Portland will always have well drilled post players because of it. You can take that to the bank.

bigblahla
01-12-2011, 06:04 AM
..Is this a trick statement?? The correct statement should read: Is St. Mary's better than Gonzaga?


More cohesive TEAM at this time, yes.

Better?


NO!:D