Contemplations on TOs

[LongIslandZagFan]

I went into this thinking that TOs were the complete and total problem for this team... but found it interesting as I looked at it. Games won in Bold, Lost in red.

SOU 14
IUPUI 14
SDSU 14
KSU 17
MRQ 16
EWU 16
ILL 11
WSU 25
ND 9
LEW 11
BAY 16
XAV 23
LAF 15
OKS 10
WAKE 19

That is 230 TOs in 15 games which translates to 15.33 per game. TOs for losses is 15.2... now, let's throw out the WSU as being a game that they just didn't show up for. Now with the remaining four losses you average only 12.75 (which would be in the top 100 in NCAA rankings). Odder still is that they played sloppier ball in many of the wins as compared to the losses.

Just some food for thought and certainly not what I expected going out.

[MDABE80]

Win or lose...we turn the ball over too much. If we get back to being a top 10 team, we need to limit to 10 or less.
Nice work LIZ.

[DZ]

Nice work LIZF. Maybe we are getting better shots and better offensive flow so that when we DON"T turn it over we are scoring at a higher percentage. I know that we still make dumb dumb turnovers, but there are fewer passes flying into the sixth row. At WF some of the TOs were questionable traveling or offensive fouls, and I think those are counted as turnovers.

I don't know. We are playing better, the teams we are playing are not quite as good as K-State, ND, SDSU - probably all part of a bigger picture.

[maynard g krebs]

I went into this thinking that TOs were the complete and total problem for this team... but found it interesting as I looked at it.

That is 230 TOs in 15 games which translates to 15.33 per game. TOs for losses is 15.2... now, let's throw out the WSU as being a game that they just didn't show up for. Now with the remaining four losses you average only 12.75 (which would be in the top 100 in NCAA rankings). Odder still is that they played sloppier ball in many of the wins as compared to the losses.

Just some food for thought and certainly not what I expected going out.

Good point. And when the numbers are put in context, it looks different. GU is 248th in to's per the NCAA stat page, but committing 3 less to's a game would put them at 53rd.

Also, this stat is going to be higher for uptempo teams. GU is 42nd in scoring at 77.2 ppg. The more relevant stat is assist/to ratio, which is 1.04 (112th) not great but decent considering that most teams ahead of GU have probably played a lesser sched to this point. In raw assist #s, 16.1 is 37th, outstanding considering the schedule and the issues at pg (and painting a better picture of play at that position than many, myself included, have given credit for)).

Also directly related is fg%, 32nd at 48%. This stat is always related to ease/difficulty of shots attempted, i.e., if you try more thread-the-needle passes that lead to dunks and layups, by definition you're gonna turn the ball over a few more times.

Not a huge issue for this team when you look at all the factors which mitigate the raw numbers.

[allnet59]

a turn over is a turn over regardless its just one less chance of attempting a shot or using the clock if you have a lead in a tight game down the stretch. keep them to an average of twelve a game and you should be good to go. i think with all the new faces and the tough early schedule we got hurt quite a bit. but i see a light at the end of the tunnel and the zags should be good during the upcoming conference run. I've been a meech basher for quite awhile but he's making me rethink my feelings of his point guard play. go zags

[djdallaszag]

Seems like a lot of the turnovers are the result of forcing it into the post even when the defense is packed in. Conversely, we could have our guards shoot more instead of forcing it in, but that doesn't win you games in the long run.

[gamagin]

+1

I went into this thinking that TOs were the complete and total problem for this team... but found it interesting as I looked at it. Games won in Bold, Lost in red.

SOU 14
IUPUI 14
SDSU 14
KSU 17
MRQ 16
EWU 16
ILL 11
WSU 25
ND 9
LEW 11
BAY 16
XAV 23
LAF 15
OKS 10
WAKE 19

That is 230 TOs in 15 games which translates to 15.33 per game. TOs for losses is 15.2... now, let's throw out the WSU as being a game that they just didn't show up for. Now with the remaining four losses you average only 12.75 (which would be in the top 100 in NCAA rankings). Odder still is that they played sloppier ball in many of the wins as compared to the losses.

Just some food for thought and certainly not what I expected going out.

interesting stuff. thanks. I tend to look for the rebounding @ both ends as the "thing" that keeps us in the game, or winning, for that mater. Our t.o.'s seem to come in streaks and seem to only occasionally be deal breakers vs. frustration makers.

As long as we keep plugging like we have: inside-out.

[gamagin]

+1

I went into this thinking that TOs were the complete and total problem for this team... but found it interesting as I looked at it. Games won in Bold, Lost in red.

SOU 14
IUPUI 14
SDSU 14
KSU 17
MRQ 16
EWU 16
ILL 11
WSU 25
ND 9
LEW 11
BAY 16
XAV 23
LAF 15
OKS 10
WAKE 19

That is 230 TOs in 15 games which translates to 15.33 per game. TOs for losses is 15.2... now, let's throw out the WSU as being a game that they just didn't show up for. Now with the remaining four losses you average only 12.75 (which would be in the top 100 in NCAA rankings). Odder still is that they played sloppier ball in many of the wins as compared to the losses.

Just some food for thought and certainly not what I expected going out.

interesting stuff. thanks. I tend to look for the rebounding @ both ends as the "thing" that keeps us in the game, or winning, for that matter. Our t.o.'s seem to come in streaks and seem to only occasionally be potential deal/game breakers vs. frustration makers.

As long as we keep plugging like we have: inside-out.

[WallaWallaZag]

interesting research...but i still can't help but feel that turnovers are where this team needs to improve the most.

someone above mentioned rob as a primary culprit and i tend to agree...for as much as rob has improved, in every game there still seems to be one or two times where he loses the ball in a situation where he has a sure dunk or layup.

another thing on sacre...considering how good he is at getting good post position, rob should really be shooting over 50% like any good big...he's missing way too many bunnies.

[gamagin]

RS is going to lose his share of handles

interesting research...but i still can't help but feel that turnovers are where this team needs to improve the most.

someone above mentioned rob as a primary culprit and i tend to agree...for as much as rob has improved, in every game there still seems to be one or two times where he loses the ball in a situation where he has a sure dunk or layup.

The death knell will be when/if he is shut out, as he was many times last year.

That cannot happen. So we take the good (his points and leadership and energy and dominance) over his getting hacked and even showing occasional hands of stone. Because the good is really good, and sometimes great.

The counter to this is trying to become a perimeter team, underutilizing one of the biggest and strongest and recently savvy high percentage f.t. shooting and shooting players in the WCC and beyond.

That is exactly what our opponents want.

Take the t.o.'s. Discount them for what they are: the cost of beating our opponents. Maybe weigh the f.t.'s he takes and makes against the misfires and we're still ahead.

[WallaWallaZag]

interesting research...but i still can't help but feel that turnovers are where this team needs to improve the most.

someone above mentioned rob as a primary culprit and i tend to agree...for as much as rob has improved, in every game there still seems to be one or two times where he loses the ball in a situation where he has a sure dunk or layup.

another thing on sacre...considering how good he is at getting good post position, rob should really be shooting over 50% like any good big...he's missing way too many bunnies.

since i kinda took a shot at big rob in my last post, i feel i need to come back and make a positive statement...recently he's been showing incredible and quite accurate range on his jump shot that i didn't think i would ever see. he looks really confident taking the jumper and i actually think i would be comfortable with him taking more if he's wide open.

[maynard g krebs]

Wisconsin is the only team averaging single digit turnovers, and also leads in a/to ratio at 1.8+. And their bigs shoot a lot of jumpers, and are proficient at it. So their offense makes low risk passes.

Seems like the two things with the highest t.o. risk are running the fast break and going inside in the halfcourt offense, two things the Zags focus on doing. High risk=high reward; to some extent you gotta take the bad with the good.