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Hoopaholic
01-03-2011, 10:52 AM
So I have been accused of spinning and being a Goodson apologist and some other tidbit names in private emails (which I cant post or be banned) so I thought I would point out some interesting facts about Goodson and his defense night in night out that in my OPINION has as much to do with our success as anything.

To date we have played against 8 pre season Bob Cousy Nominees, the best of the best point guards in the country, and a 9th that was on an absolute terror but not in the preseason top 50. Almost EVERY game we have played to date we have faced a pre season top guard.

Every game, Goodson was asked to guard them. I tracked the stats of each to demonstrate that Goodson brings so much to this team other than putting the rock in the hole(of which I contend we have plenty of scorers and need other role pieces to be truly successful),

The players averages and then what the player did against Goodson are in parenthesis:

Ashworth: IUPUI

5.2 ppg (10) 3.3 rpg (2) 2.4 Apg (2) 1.5 to (3) 42% from floor (50%)

40% from 3 pt line (33%)



McCamey Ilinois

15.8 ppg(11) 3.5 rpg (2) 7.2 apg (7) 2.5 to (2) 50% from floor (33%)

53% from 3 pt line (60%)

Gay SDSU

11.7 ppg (9) 2.2 rpg (0) 3.4 apg (3) 1.8 to (3) 45% floor (42%)

40% 3pt shooting (33%)

Moore WSU

6.5 ppg (8) 2.8 rpg (3) 4.3 apg (3) 2.3 (5) 35% from floor (33%)

47% 3 p shooting (100% 1-1-)


Holloway Xavier

21.8 (26)** 4.9 rpg (3) 5.4 apg(3) 3.9 to (7) 46% from floor (37%)

33% 3pt shots (20%)

Dunn Baylor

21.8 (17) 4.4 rpg (5) 2.6 apg (1) 3.6 to (5) 43% from floor (30%)

39% 3pt shoting (33%)

Hansborough ND

15.8 pg (13) 3.5 rpg (3) 4.1 apg (3) 2.3 to (2) 43% from floor (42%)

45% 3 pt shooting (50%)

Page OK St

16.1 (2) 1.9 rpg (0) 2.2 apg (o) 1.8 TO (0) 42% shooting floor (25%)

35% 3pt shoots (0%)

Harris Wake

10.8 pg (4) 4.2rbpg (4) 4.2 apg (3) 3.7 topg (4) 47% shot floor (19%)

42% 3 pt shooting (0%)

We still have MCConnell from SMC to face


none of these preseason top guards went off . None of them have every sat line meeting their averages, Shooting percentages are lower in most cases and turnovers are up against Goodson.

6 of the 9 games he held his opponent under their scoring average
8 of the 9 games he held his opponent under their rebounding average
9 of the 9 games he held his opponent under their ASSISt AVERAGE
6 of the 9 games he forced more turnovers than opponents average
8 of the 9 games he kept his opponent under their field goal average
5 of the 9 games he kept his oponent under their 3 pt shooting average


Exceptional defense against some of the top guards in the country. Key piece of the puzzle for overall success.

FuManShoes
01-03-2011, 11:04 AM
Interesting. Who's Ball? I think you meant Moore.

Hoopaholic
01-03-2011, 11:05 AM
yep...will edit...

ZagLawGrad
01-03-2011, 11:06 AM
Meech is a very valuable piece of this team. While he's not a big scorer, he is a very good defender, and he creates a lot of havoc with his speed and quickness. (so long as he plays under control).

I'm a Meech fan.

GUinSTL
01-03-2011, 11:35 AM
well done, Hoop.
Meech has certainly been a show-stopper... in the non-traditional way. And hey, if he can give us a couple layins, respectable FT%, and a floater in the lane now and then, I'll be happy. Now, if somebody would just perfect the science of Stocktosmosis and apply it to Meech.

~B

Hoopaholic
01-03-2011, 11:37 AM
or vice versus? Meechosmosis as it pertains to taking care of the rock, defensive abilities, speed, strength and toughness

It is funny how each of the kids have different skill sets but each can contribute to the teams success at different levels

kclubfounder
01-03-2011, 11:51 AM
Nice research! I'd make a wise-guy comment about needing a life, but you know the old saying about throwing rocks from a glass house.

Good stuff. Thankfully the Meech slamming has died down quite a bit.

Hoopaholic
01-03-2011, 11:56 AM
haaa look at my title and it tells you what "is my life"....or so my wife states every week....

Zag4Hire
01-03-2011, 12:06 PM
I think the most impressive player that GU has seen has been Perry Jones III. That kid can absolutely ball and has a great shooter's touch. Also SDSU was very impressive with their athleticism and they should be a handful come tourney time for any team.

WeSayZed
01-03-2011, 12:55 PM
So I have been accused of spinning and being a Goodson apologist and some other tidbit names in private emails (which I cant post or be banned) so I thought I would point out some interesting facts about Goodson and his defense night in night out that in my OPINION has as much to do with our success as anything.

To date we have played against 8 pre season Bob Cousy Nominees, the best of the best point guards in the country, and a 9th that was on an absolute terror but not in the preseason top 50. Almost EVERY game we have played to date we have faced a pre season top guard.

Every game, Goodson was asked to guard them. I tracked the stats of each to demonstrate that Goodson brings so much to this team other than putting the rock in the hole(of which I contend we have plenty of scorers and need other role pieces to be truly successful),

The players averages and then what the player did against Goodson are in parenthesis:

Ashworth: IUPUI

5.2 ppg (10) 3.3 rpg (2) 2.4 Apg (2) 1.5 to (3) 42% from floor (50%)

40% from 3 pt line (33%)



McCamey Ilinois

15.8 ppg(11) 3.5 rpg (2) 7.2 apg (7) 2.5 to (2) 50% from floor (33%)

53% from 3 pt line (60%)

Gay SDSU

11.7 ppg (9) 2.2 rpg (0) 3.4 apg (3) 1.8 to (3) 45% floor (42%)

40% 3pt shooting (33%)

Moore WSU

6.5 ppg (8) 2.8 rpg (3) 4.3 apg (3) 2.3 (5) 35% from floor (33%)

47% 3 p shooting (100% 1-1-)


Holloway Xavier

21.8 (26)** 4.9 rpg (3) 5.4 apg(3) 3.9 to (7) 46% from floor (37%)

33% 3pt shots (20%)

Dunn Baylor

21.8 (17) 4.4 rpg (5) 2.6 apg (1) 3.6 to (5) 43% from floor (30%)

39% 3pt shoting (33%)

Hansborough ND

15.8 pg (13) 3.5 rpg (3) 4.1 apg (3) 2.3 to (2) 43% from floor (42%)

45% 3 pt shooting (50%)

Page OK St

16.1 (2) 1.9 rpg (0) 2.2 apg (o) 1.8 TO (0) 42% shooting floor (25%)

35% 3pt shoots (0%)

Harris Wake

10.8 pg (4) 4.2rbpg (4) 4.2 apg (3) 3.7 topg (4) 47% shot floor (19%)

42% 3 pt shooting (0%)

We still have MCConnell from SMC to face


none of these preseason top guards went off . None of them have every sat line meeting their averages, Shooting percentages are lower in most cases and turnovers are up against Goodson.

6 of the 9 games he held his opponent under their scoring average
8 of the 9 games he held his opponent under their rebounding average
9 of the 9 games he held his opponent under their ASSISt AVERAGE
6 of the 9 games he forced more turnovers than opponents average
8 of the 9 games he kept his opponent under their field goal average
5 of the 9 games he kept his oponent under their 3 pt shooting average


Exceptional defense against some of the top guards in the country. Key piece of the puzzle for overall success.
This is exactly why you get accused of spin. I’ve got a number of posts to get back to, and I’m not going to be able to do that until the end of the week, but I just have to jump in on this one. What you’ve just showed is that Meech is not as good a defender as I thought he was. Based on your numbers, when you average everything out, he’s a somewhat better than average defender, but no more than that. There’s nothing there that shows anything like “exceptional defence”.

Note that the key stat here is scoring. We’ve been destroying our opponents on the boards, and very little of that has anything to do with Meech, so the rebounding comparison doesn’t mean much. The assists number is also a function of other people shutting down their man, and not so much to do with Meech. When Rob blocks someone and he doesn’t score, and the PG who set him up doesn’t get the assist, then Rob gets the credit for that, not Meech. I think Meech does get credit for the TOs, however, and there were a couple of games where he made a significant contribution there. You say that in 8 of the 9 games he kept his opponent under their field goal average, but in 3 of those games he difference was 3% or less, which is insignificant. If you average them all out I think he does do better than average overall, but then again you have to give some credit to our tall trees as well.

Overall I would have expected Meech to measure out better that this. He’s not as good a defender as I thought. Maybe even I bought into the hype too much? And, of course, all of this ignores Meech’s shortcomings on offence, which is another reason you get accused of spin. You selectively take stats out of context to try to present a distorted picture. Everyone agrees that Meech is at least a good defender, but if he’s only a good defender, and not an all-world defender, then it doesn’t make up for his all-world worst offence. And his offensive struggles don’t just hold him back, remember. They hold the team back. Remember how the team changed when Stockton came in against Oklahoma?

Of course Stockton has own defensive deficiencies as well, and that means that Meech may indeed be our best PG overall right now, but he’s not a good PG overall, and I very much hope we find some way to upgrade that position before the end of the year.

Hoopaholic
01-03-2011, 01:12 PM
to each his own, but to defend against the nations best guards and consistently hold them under their averages equates to me that he is an above average defender, in your mind that doesnt equate to above average defense.

I would gather that any college coach would take this type of defense against the best of the best. Imagine if each of our starters had this kind of defensive stats where we would be?


Please point out any "spin" I have done as it pertains to his offense. I have never said he is an offensive juggernaut. I have pointed out his shooting needs to improve (as it pertains to taking it to the basket, hitting the gaps, making mid range jump shots)

I have said and will say he is fulfilling his ROLE on the team as it equates to his skill sets (defense, taking care of ball, intensity, breaking full court pressure, getting us into offense and defensive sets, attacking gaps)


So if you want to call it spin, I guess GU Coaching staff are spinmeisters at the best because it is apparent they happen to agree that he is a great defender, good point guard (GOOD NOT GREAT OR ALL WORLD) that provides the skill sets this team needs to win.....


And WeSayZed, you have been saying from the first post on this forum that Goodson is no good, that he should never start and you even stated that the best thing for Goodson would be transfer out of GU and go play somewhere else (March 27, 2010 post)......so I know from what COLOR GLASSES you look at anything as it pertains to Goodson......

My perspective is he is fulfilling critical role that the coaching staff has asked of him. For that he is a valuable member of the team

cjm720
01-03-2011, 01:28 PM
Another positive trait of Meech's is that he simply wears down his defenders with his constant speed, push of the ball.

ZagLawGrad
01-03-2011, 01:44 PM
Another positive trait of Meech's is that he simply wears down his defenders with his constant speed, push of the ball.

Exactly what I said---just not quite as precise. :)

Beer_Engineer
01-03-2011, 01:49 PM
I have said and will say he is fulfilling his ROLE on the team as it equates to his skill sets (defense, taking care of ball, intensity, breaking full court pressure, getting us into offense and defensive sets, attacking gaps)


This is the heart of the matter. And if Stockton werent so defensively inept, he'd be starting. If onyl we could combine the two....

We're starting to get in to the "beating a dead horse" with this Meech thing. One thing is for sure, there are two camps this year; the Pro Meech Camp and the Anti-Meech camp. Be it students, alum and/or board posters, we will all have to agree to disagree that Meech is not a good point guard, but is what he is, and we're stuck with it till next year.

Now lets freaking stomp Portland.

Once and Future Zag
01-03-2011, 01:52 PM
Based on your numbers, when you average everything out, he’s a somewhat better than average defender, but no more than that. There’s nothing there that shows anything like “exceptional defence”.

In net those players were held to less than 80% of their normal scoring output.

What's the number that indicates the difference between "above average" and "Exceptional"?

FuManShoes
01-03-2011, 01:53 PM
This is exactly why you get accused of spin. I’ve got a number of posts to get back to, and I’m not going to be able to do that until the end of the week, but I just have to jump in on this one. What you’ve just showed is that Meech is not as good a defender as I thought he was. Based on your numbers, when you average everything out, he’s a somewhat better than average defender, but no more than that. There’s nothing there that shows anything like “exceptional defence”.

Note that the key stat here is scoring. We’ve been destroying our opponents on the boards, and very little of that has anything to do with Meech, so the rebounding comparison doesn’t mean much. The assists number is also a function of other people shutting down their man, and not so much to do with Meech. When Rob blocks someone and he doesn’t score, and the PG who set him up doesn’t get the assist, then Rob gets the credit for that, not Meech. I think Meech does get credit for the TOs, however, and there were a couple of games where he made a significant contribution there. You say that in 8 of the 9 games he kept his opponent under their field goal average, but in 3 of those games he difference was 3% or less, which is insignificant. If you average them all out I think he does do better than average overall, but then again you have to give some credit to our tall trees as well.

Overall I would have expected Meech to measure out better that this. He’s not as good a defender as I thought. Maybe even I bought into the hype too much? And, of course, all of this ignores Meech’s shortcomings on offence, which is another reason you get accused of spin. You selectively take stats out of context to try to present a distorted picture. Everyone agrees that Meech is at least a good defender, but if he’s only a good defender, and not an all-world defender, then it doesn’t make up for his all-world worst offence. And his offensive struggles don’t just hold him back, remember. They hold the team back. Remember how the team changed when Stockton came in against Oklahoma?

Of course Stockton has own defensive deficiencies as well, and that means that Meech may indeed be our best PG overall right now, but he’s not a good PG overall, and I very much hope we find some way to upgrade that position before the end of the year.

I won't accuse Hoopaholic of spin but had a similar reaction to his post as WeSayZed: The numbers don't paint Meech as the lock-down defender he's made out to be. Without the switching and help from teammates, opponents still shoot threes at a good clip against Meech and the Zags. Physical guards still get to the rim and line too much. The Zags still don't force enough turnovers, and when they do, it's usually Gray and Keita getting steals and Sacre getting blocks. Now, while the numbers don't make Meech out to be a stopper, he's passed the eye test. For instabce, how many charges has he drawn compared to other PGs? More than that he has Few's confidence as a good defender (chuckle if you will). In the end that's all that matters. I honestly don't know how much "stock" Few puts into numbers. If he likes what a guy is doing out there he keeps him in the game; if he doesn't, he doesn't.

kclubfounder
01-03-2011, 02:23 PM
These numbers represent the statistics the opposing player had for the entire game. It is probably impossible to do, but if one could break down the statistics of the players while Meech was on the court, then extrapolate the numbers to an entire game, you would have much more meaningful statistics.

If Stockton, Carter, or anyone else guarded these players during a portion of the game (which of course they did) and the opposing player put up better numbers during that period (which is likely), then it hurts how Meech looks in this little exercise.

The eyeball test tells me that Meech is our best defending guard. Therefore, I think his numbers are actually better than what Hoopaholic shows.

U Zig, I Zag
01-03-2011, 02:32 PM
Some things are easier to quantify because they work out in nice, round numbers. Did the player shoot the ball? Did it go in? Was it a 2? a FT? a 3pt?

Defense is much harder to quantify. There is obviously a lot of info in the original post but since we are talking opposing player averages you can immediately throw some gum into the works by claiming that 1) the rest of the Zag team helps Meech on D 2) On average, GU is a better opponent than the early season cupcakes teams face - the averages were pre-inflated and 3) It's never 40 mins vs 40 mins, 1 player on 1 player. There is a ton of subs, screen switching, zones, pressing, not pressing etc.

Eye test, Meech is a good defender. He is fast and he hassles guys. Few plays him to do this. Steven is pretty good at this as well, he is often put on the top scorer. Steven's height gives him an advantage, but probably makes him slower. They are a good combination, the two of them together.

I think, as far a guards go, Keita is becoming the best defender. He just has a knack for getting to the ball, similar to the way that Manny can sniff out a rebound.

Either way, with Carter there to help (decent D) and Keita able to come in I think we can hassle the heck out of the WCC shooters (if the kids dedicate themselves to it). It all starts with Meech, since he is the starting PG.

WeSayZed
01-03-2011, 02:38 PM
to each his own, but to defend against the nations best guards and consistently hold them under their averages equates to me that he is an above average defender, in your mind that doesnt equate to above average defense.

I would gather that any college coach would take this type of defense against the best of the best. Imagine if each of our starters had this kind of defensive stats where we would be?


Please point out any "spin" I have done as it pertains to his offense. I have never said he is an offensive juggernaut. I have pointed out his shooting needs to improve (as it pertains to taking it to the basket, hitting the gaps, making mid range jump shots)

I have said and will say he is fulfilling his ROLE on the team as it equates to his skill sets (defense, taking care of ball, intensity, breaking full court pressure, getting us into offense and defensive sets, attacking gaps)


So if you want to call it spin, I guess GU Coaching staff are spinmeisters at the best because it is apparent they happen to agree that he is a great defender, good point guard (GOOD NOT GREAT OR ALL WORLD) that provides the skill sets this team needs to win.....


And WeSayZed, you have been saying from the first post on this forum that Goodson is no good, that he should never start and you even stated that the best thing for Goodson would be transfer out of GU and go play somewhere else (March 27, 2010 post)......so I know from what COLOR GLASSES you look at anything as it pertains to Goodson......

My perspective is he is fulfilling critical role that the coaching staff has asked of him. For that he is a valuable member of the team
And this is a perfect exhibit B. A mere two paragraphs in this thread after I said this:


Everyone agrees that Meech is at least a good defender.

You claim I said this:

to each his own, but to defend against the nations best guards and consistently hold them under their averages equates to me that he is an above average defender, in your mind that doesnt equate to above average defense.
This is called a straw man argument, or something worse. Basically you’re just not being honest. You’re not being honest about what I’ve said, and you’re not being honest in your assessment of Meech’s game. For whatever reason you’re completely bent out of shape on this issue, and that’s what I don’t get. There’s a group of you who are like this and I don’t know where it’s coming from. I’ll call you the Cult of Meech, but I don’t know who your leader is or why your group exists.:confused:

kclubfounder
01-03-2011, 02:42 PM
WeSayZed,

Are you the leader of the 'Cult of Meech haters'?

For whatever reason you’re completely bent out of shape on this issue, and that’s what I don’t get.

CDC84
01-03-2011, 02:46 PM
Meech is the best point of attack defender I have seen in the Mark Few era. I don't need to see any stats to know that. I would hate to have him guard me if I were a point guard.

Gray and Keita are good college wing defenders.

Beer_Engineer
01-03-2011, 02:49 PM
I’ll call you the Cult of Meech, but I don’t know who your leader is or why your group exists.

Penguins.

zag67
01-03-2011, 02:57 PM
Wesay, can you create a list of who you think the top 10 or 20 all around college point guards are in the nation? That way we have a list of someones to compare to. This will also help me to understand what you think makes up a good point guard. Thanks.

WallaWallaZag
01-03-2011, 03:21 PM
WeSayZed,

Are you the leader of the 'Cult of Meech haters'?

For whatever reason you’re completely bent out of shape on this issue, and that’s what I don’t get.

gotta agree here...while i'm fairly neutral on meech, it appears to me that wesayzed gets more bent out of shape negatively to meech than hoopaholic does positively.

speaking only in terms of defense, meech passes my eye test. i actually think he would be considered a very good point guard if he played for a team like missouri or even UW which pressure the heck out of teams and are always in transition. the zag system doesn't really play to his strengths.

zag buddy
01-03-2011, 03:36 PM
How many years does Mark Few have to choose to start Meech before you guys give up your Meech bashing. Few one of the top coaches in the land chooses MEECH. Respect his decision, since he has a lot more info than you do. Meech is our best point guard. How good he is will not be appreciated until he is is gone. Go Meech, Go Zags.

Hoopaholic
01-03-2011, 03:51 PM
might suggest you reread your own post where YOU stated


"he’s a somewhat better than average defender, but no more than that."


you think he is somewhat better than average, I think he is above average defender .....we can agree to disagree


I will be the first to provide what I feel are honest observations and opinions, I do these from a coaching perspective not a fan perspective. You will FIND NO WHERE in any of my posts an assertion that Goodson is an all american, that he is a perfect PG or that he is an offensive juggernaut. He does fit the piece of the puzzle nicely and bring skills sets to the table that a succesful team needs.

I think we can simply agree to disagree that in my opinion he is an effective PG on the Zags current squad makeup and provides valuable components to this team, that without it we probably would be looking at not making ANOTHER run at the WCC title.


What part of this assessment am I way off base? as this is what I felt would be his role from the start:

Takes care of the basketball
Creates up tempo
Understand and implements coaches o and d strategies
Can beat full court pressure
Tough as Nails
Rebound well for a PG
Defend the other PG so they have trouble with offensive flow
Make free throws
Drive the gaps-hit mid range jumper
Get 3.4 to 4.5 assists per game
Limit the turnovers
Make sure the BIG three are getting their touches and scoring opportunities

ZagNative
01-03-2011, 04:07 PM
What matters is the confidence Coach Few shows in Meech. On the Mark Few radio show today, he was very complimentary of Meech's play of late, saying that he thought Meech played great against OK State.

That was a really good show, BTW. Recorded while they were still at Wake Forest, that was as close to elated as I've ever heard MF.

Part of the exchange between Hudson and Few:

TH: Mark, kind of an interesting situation, because you brought David off the bench, and he was able to provide a spark. Statistically, just looking at the box score, you wouldn't see a whole lot, but he was able give you a spark, and then Meech was able to come back in in the second half, and he was able to do some things, and it was kind of a unique situation, in that it was two diferent guys in two different halves.

MF: Exactly. And I thought David had a really successful run in the first half, and sometimes sitting Meech down where he's seeing that, and then he was able to come back and say, "Okay, Stocks just did this, " so even though they're different players, he was able to .. he was attacking. Meech is so much better when he's attacking than when he's tentative, or when he's thinking about it. I always tell him, "You're not a good analyst. You just got to play - play."

He provided a great spark for us. He really guarded well. You know he did a great job on Keaton Page. Page came into the game I think averaging 18 points a game, and he did not get a field goal. And they run a lot of screens for him, and he's very crafty at manipulating those screens and/or lifting you off your feet, jumping into you and getting himself to the free throw line. He was a prolific scorer in high school, and thus far this season he's done a really nice job for them, so to hold him to zero is a great testament to our guys.

U Zig, I Zag
01-03-2011, 04:08 PM
That's a good post to close this thread on. Thanks ZN.

2wiceright
01-03-2011, 05:14 PM
these numbers represent the statistics the opposing player had for the entire game. It is probably impossible to do, but if one could break down the statistics of the players while meech was on the court, then extrapolate the numbers to an entire game, you would have much more meaningful statistics.

If stockton, carter, or anyone else guarded these players during a portion of the game (which of course they did) and the opposing player put up better numbers during that period (which is likely), then it hurts how meech looks in this little exercise.

The eyeball test tells me that meech is our best defending guard. Therefore, i think his numbers are actually better than what hoopaholic shows.

+1000

2wiceright
01-03-2011, 05:23 PM
What matters is the confidence Coach Few shows in Meech. On the Mark Few radio show today, he was very complimentary of Meech's play of late, saying that he thought Meech played great against OK State.

That was a really good show, BTW. Recorded while they were still at Wake Forest, that was as close to elated as I've ever heard MF.

Part of the exchange between Hudson and Few:

ZagNative: do you know where I could find a link to the recorded interview between Hudson and Few earlier today? Much apreciated...

ZagNative
01-03-2011, 06:06 PM
2wiceright, check your pm. The show is available for a price as part of gozags.com's subscription service online. I listened to it live for free locally on KGA, AM 1510. I have it set up to record automatically via my Radio Shark (but not on my new laptop, because it's not Windows 7 compatible.)

ZagLawGrad
01-03-2011, 06:16 PM
Off the main topic, I do think Meech would be one heckuva a football DB with his speed and toughness. Him at DB and Ira Brown at linebacker.

sullyzag66
01-03-2011, 06:36 PM
This is the heart of the matter. And if Stockton werent so defensively inept, he'd be starting. If onyl we could combine the two....

We're starting to get in to the "beating a dead horse" with this Meech thing. One thing is for sure, there are two camps this year; the Pro Meech Camp and the Anti-Meech camp. Be it students, alum and/or board posters, we will all have to agree to disagree that Meech is not a good point guard, but is what he is, and we're stuck with it till next year.

Now lets freaking stomp Portland.
Right. And put Meech on Stohl. Unfortunately, they have two other very good 3-point shooters in Mitrovic and Waterford.

bballbeachbum
01-03-2011, 06:45 PM
Right. And put Meech on Stohl. Unfortunately, they have two other very good 3-point shooters in Mitrovic and Waterford.

Meech, Steven, Mathis, David, Manny, Marquise and co. can and will need to get after them on the perimeter...make PU drivers into the trees without options, and punish them on the offensive end, too

agree with CDC and cjm

Zig-Zag
01-03-2011, 07:09 PM
""CAN'T WE JUST ALL GET ALONG"" and agree Meech is at best a above average defender and at best a well below average ofensive player and agree we don't curently have a point gaurd that will take us far in big dance.:boxing::boxing:

bballbeachbum
01-03-2011, 07:21 PM
""CAN'T WE JUST ALL GET ALONG"" and agree Meech is at best a above average defender and at best a well below average ofensive player and agree we don't curently have a point gaurd that will take us far in big dance.:boxing::boxing:

getting along has nothing to do with agreeing to your statement ;)

MickMick
01-03-2011, 07:22 PM
Well conceived OP but..........very, very deceiving.

As much as the Zags switch off, you can't credit one guy. I have seen Meech on seven footers on occasion because of the Zag's willingness to switch (and conversely, Rob on smallish guards). Further, the Zags have played "guard by committee" and other Zag guards have played in large chunks in some of the biggest games.

So all those numbers in the OP about what opposing guards have done is much more of a credit to team defense than that of Meech alone.

By a large margin.

Team defense.

This is absolutely, positively, true.

Still, a nice effort to cast Meech in the best light possible.

Reborn
01-03-2011, 07:25 PM
Meech is not a great defender, but he's the best we have at the point. The thing I like most about Meech is he is tough. I think he's one of the toughest guys on this team, and I believe his toughness is spreading. When he took that hit across the face/neck and got up off the canvas and helped win the game at the end with his free throw shooting, he won me over. A quality like toughnes can not be measured in stats, but He has gotten more defensing charging calls than anyone...and he has played some very good point guards and did a good job on them. He DID NOT guard Price from Ok State, but they did have a very good point guard who is a very good outside shooter and a very quick point guard. Meech pretty much shut him down.

Meech did not do a good job on the back up point guard (Fresman) from Notre Dame who got 12 pts off the bench and really hurt us. He did not do a good job against Camby from Illinois at all. I think Meech struggles against big point guards who can shoot over him, like Canby, the guard from Kansas St. But he is very good against quick and fast pointguards.

Meech is improving on offense and is contributing a lot lately. He is improving just as the team is. He is not a great point guard, and is not even a real good one. But he is good enough for this team and if he continues to improve, which I think he will, he can be good by the end of the year.

MickMick
01-03-2011, 07:34 PM
I grow weary of the double standard.

When opponents have a high three point shooting percentage it is alway on the team or Few. Likely true.

When an opposing guard is under his average (often built up against weaker OOC teams) the OP credits Meech for holding the guy below his average.

What if I were to switch it?

What if I were to say the the team and Few's coaching is the reason those numbers put out by the OP are down and that the high 3 point percentage from opponents was because they were shooting over the top of Meech? I don't believe this to be true, but the argument is just as valid as that in the OP.

Pick one group (or person) to give credit to and to lay blame on. I would say it is the team. The team is responsible for all good or ill that happens on defense.

The Zags constantly switch off and Meech doesn't play 100% of the minutes at his position.

ZagsObserver
01-03-2011, 07:34 PM
The frustration is with the constant spin. In some cases it's misremembering, perhaps. Sometimes Hoopaholic says that while Goodson was in, GU went on a run, etc. In watching the game, and rewatching on the tape while keeping track of stats, that was not the case at all. Additionally, he stated not all that long ago that Stockton had not played meaningful minutes, and that most of his playing time was during blowouts. He tried to provide stats to back this up. Problem with that logic is that Stockton was in before they were blowouts, or he was in early on after Meech proved to be ineffective...he was not simply placed in at the end of the game as suggested.

If we can support our players without spin, that would be an ideal world, as we could actually accept the arguments without having to second-guess, knowing the history of certain posters.

bballbeachbum
01-03-2011, 08:05 PM
but of course it's a team d thing, definitely.

and it's Meech who Leads that at the point big time from the jump, like what CDC said. does he ever get beat? of course! you can't go for it like that and be relied on to press the point like that and yet go unscathed, never get beat. but he gets back up, fights back, sticks his chin in there again, each possession, with seemingly boundless energy, and typically gets after it even harder

with Mathis finding his stride and stomping down hard (and Big Rob patrolling the paint better than I've ever seen him do it) there's better support now for what Meech does best. think it was hoopaholic who wrote somewhere about Mathis having the speed to finally get out with Meech consistantly, and jazz said somewhere Meech and Mathis have good chemistry...I agree with both :D

ZN's post w/ Few's comments about Meech gaining confidence by seeing teammate David find certain successes on the floor, and how that has helped raise Meech's confidence and game...that's great Team stuff!

edit: on spin, those in glass houses, etc.

cjm720
01-03-2011, 08:57 PM
Sure it is a team game but you cannot discount what is obvious and what Few constantly acknowledges because of your public dislike for Meech.


Well conceived OP but..........very, very deceiving.

As much as the Zags switch off, you can't credit one guy. I have seen Meech on seven footers on occasion because of the Zag's willingness to switch (and conversely, Rob on smallish guards). Further, the Zags have played "guard by committee" and other Zag guards have played in large chunks in some of the biggest games.

So all those numbers in the OP about what opposing guards have done is much more of a credit to team defense than that of Meech alone.

By a large margin.

Team defense.

This is absolutely, positively, true.

Still, a nice effort to cast Meech in the best light possible.

MickMick
01-03-2011, 09:58 PM
Sure it is a team game but you cannot discount what is obvious and what Few constantly acknowledges because of your public dislike for Meech.

He is playing better than ever right now.

Still, the OP is putting out spin. I gave the reasons why.

I like Meech much better now because he is shooting the ball more. I'm not going to justify his existence with a bad argument about defense. If I'm going to defend him, it is because he is finding an offensive role. He will never completely win the hearts and minds until he does. It looks like he is headed down the right path on the offensive end.

Yes he is a good defender. He always has been.

He is not a great defender. Taller players will shoot over him at the perimeter. He does a great job of harrassing players bringing it up. He will get back early in transition. He will take a charge. He will hustle. He rarely steals the ball. He is reactive more than instinctive. His great quickness more than makes up for most of his shortcomings. He will get in foul trouble on occasion.

By historic Zag standards he is really good on defense.

WallaWallaZag
01-04-2011, 04:56 AM
it just occurred to me something about meech on offense...despite all the bashing he gets and the obvious fact that his inability to shoot hinders our offense at times, he's actually still more of a threat to score than stockton, especially the past few games. note that i'm not saying he's a better shooter, but a better scorer. note i'm also not saying that he runs the offense better than stockton, but just that he's actually more of a threat to score than stockton (even if it's just because the scouting report has him as such a non-threat).

stockton might be a good passer, but he's not much of shooter yet and needs to be wide open to get his shot off with his size, meaning that while opponents can't leave him completely they don't actually need to guard him that closely. i think he gets guarded tight because the scouting report on him is to pressure him into possible turnovers.

ronh_pm
01-04-2011, 05:12 AM
Seems pretty simple to me.

Meech falls off the face of the earth today the Zags do not dance in March.

Meech continues to play and the Zags have a chance.

JPtheBeasta
01-04-2011, 06:44 AM
I think a key point that has been lost by the anti-Meech camp is that he doesn't have to be the best defensive point guard in the country, he just has to be the best defensive PG ON THIS TEAM for the the argument to hold up. Few has shown on multiple occasions that defense is a big deal (see: Carter and Dower). I think Meech is far and away better than Carter or Stockton (Keita is left out of this argument until Few actually has him play PG). To make another point, team defense starts at the point of the attack. If the opposing PG has an easy time starting the sets, getting the ball into the lane, or making the post entry, team defense is much harder. I think Meech does a good job with all of these. I have to think the reason Page was so tentative to shoot in the Ok St game is that Meech got into his head a little bit. I have no other explaination as to why he would pass on so many open looks.

ZagsObserver
01-04-2011, 06:56 AM
That's false, WallaWalla. First of all, Meech makes .216 pts. per minute while in, and David Stockton makes .257 pts. per minute while in. Secondly, David Stockton is most liked for his ability to make the passes and jumpstart the offense in setting up team-ball on offense.

Beer_Engineer
01-04-2011, 07:35 AM
How many years does Mark Few have to choose to start Meech before you guys give up your Meech bashing. Few one of the top coaches in the land chooses MEECH. Respect his decision, since he has a lot more info than you do. Meech is our best point guard. How good he is will not be appreciated until he is is gone. Go Meech, Go Zags.

How many times has Few actively gone after a JUCO PG with and "established" point on the team already. Like you said, he knew what he was doing seeking Carter haha

gamagin
01-04-2011, 08:04 AM
He is playing better than ever right now.

Still, the OP is putting out spin. I gave the reasons why.

I like Meech much better now because he is shooting the ball more. I'm not going to justify his existence with a bad argument about defense. If I'm going to defend him, it is because he is finding an offensive role. He will never completely win the hearts and minds until he does. It looks like he is headed down the right path on the offensive end.

Yes he is a good defender. He always has been.

He is not a great defender. Taller players will shoot over him at the perimeter. He does a great job of harrassing players bringing it up. He will get back early in transition. He will take a charge. He will hustle. He rarely steals the ball. He is reactive more than instinctive. His great quickness more than makes up for most of his shortcomings. He will get in foul trouble on occasion.

By historic Zag standards he is really good on defense.

you and a few others have had furballs in your throats over Meech for a long time. Some of you decided a long time ago he didn't belong as our starter.

ANd now it seems every advance by this young athlete is greeted with reluctant endorsements with too many qualifications. Yeah he's okay at this but he's not tall enough. Sure he almost got cut in half and has sacrificed his body but he can' shoot the trey. and blah blah blah.

It would be nice if all of you who couldn't wait to set this kid on fire would start to celebrate how important he is to this team. without all the qualifications, which, unlike most other Zags, have pretty much been beaten to death.

Yet, Meech is still there, still starting, still improving and still contributing mightily to the Zag success. You can get this kind of assessment just about anywhere except among the few on GUB who have never quite let him into your imaginary fold of adequate point guards for GU. it's gotten to the point that it reflects more on the critic than the subject anymore.

TacomaZAG
01-04-2011, 09:00 AM
Stats can be twisted to say pretty much anything we want them to, such as:

Sacre is our best 3-pt shooter (100%, 1 for 1 career, I think)
Stockton has the best shooting range (his half court heave last game)
Sam is our best 3-pt defender (his guy hasn't made any)
etc.......

Meech is and will be our starting PG for the rest of the year, for better or worse. We can get in to the dance with or without him, likewise we may watch the dance with or without him. Everyone on the team is improving, albeit at different rates, just like pretty much every player on every team in America.

Coach is going to play the guys he thinks give us the best opportunity to win, end of story. Sometimes I pull my hair out with what he does, sometimes I shake my head (both good and bad), and sometimes I just stroke my chin and say hmmmmmm. All I know is we are in a good position going in to conference play, not a great position, not a horrible position. We don't have a tournament seed locked up, we don't necessarily have to run the table to get an invitation. We still control our own destiny.

If we wanted to schedule OOC competition like some programs, we could be undefeated now (and ranked) and have no idea how good or bad we are, or what we need to do to improve, and this board would be a 24-hr Kool-Aid stand. Right now, we know what we need to improve on and my guess is that every person on the team (coaches and players) are doing everything they can to continue to get better. Not as much Kool-Aid, but reality often doesn't taste that great.

Lots of BBall left in the season, why don't we let it play out and enjoy the ride, as difficult as that is sometimes??? 10-5 with no bad losses (and no signature wins) is about where most of us expected to be, given what Coach said at the start of the year and the injuries we are still recovering from. We missed an opportunity with SDSU and laid an egg in Pullman, but pulled out a good win against Baylor and avoided the "trap" loss against Wake.

The sky isn't falling, and it's not 80 and sunny, just another gloomy NW winter with the hope of another great spring.

Go ZAGS

ronh_pm
01-04-2011, 09:15 AM
just wait till next year.

Those who think that Panagos, Bell or even Draginas are going to step in and be starting guards over Goodson are probably going to be very very disappointed.

I cannot see anyway Few does not redshirt at least two of them while trying to figure out what to do with Carter and Stockton while Meech again runs the show.

U Zig, I Zag
01-04-2011, 09:17 AM
Meech is alright. The team is alright. PG by committee with each doing a different 'thing' for the team. In a way, it might be a blessing to have it this way. Different kids keep stepping up.... not many teams have this luxury of depth.

Zagsker
01-04-2011, 09:53 AM
Meech is doing all-right in my book as long as he continues to take some shots from the outside....as long as a defender knows that Meech may take the shot they will creep out a little more than if they know he will not take a shot...I don't care if he makes 1 out of 4/5...he is streaky enough where teams will have to somewhat respect his shot after he makes the first one

zagman68
01-04-2011, 02:01 PM
The past two years I have cringed so often when Meech has had the ball, taken the shot, driven into the lane to have his shot swatted away by some 6'2" defender. I have wondered aloud (very aloud!) why the hell Mark keeps him as his #1 PG. But this year is different. Meech is handling the ball MUCH better. He has outraced the press many times this year, dribbling his way out of trouble or finding the right teammate as the trap was sprung. He has always had the ability to push the ball right past the opponents, but has almost NEVER been able to finish once he gets into the paint. But this year is different. He's actually making layups and pull-ups and floaters and even the occasional mid-range jumper (and how about that 3-pointer at Wake?). His play has definitely improved over his freshman and sophomore seasons. If he can bring it in conference like he's been doing in OOC then we'll be just fine with him running the show. IMHO.

kclubfounder
01-04-2011, 02:46 PM
Welcome Zagman68!

Funny, I think I might have written the exact same post about Jeremy Pargo after his 1st couple years. I used to be SO frustrated with his inability to finish after blowing past people to the hoop. Then, almost overnight, the problem went away.

Hoopaholic
01-04-2011, 05:46 PM
Talk about spin your quote below is spinning faster than any of my tops ever did as a kid:

"Additionally, he stated not all that long ago that Stockton had not played meaningful minutes, and that most of his playing time was during blowouts. He tried to provide stats to back this up. Problem with that logic is that Stockton was in before they were blowouts, or he was in early on after Meech proved to be ineffective...he was not simply placed in at the end of the game as suggested."

You are referring to my post December 15, at 11;37 hours. You call that "not long ago" hmmm that was 20 days ago and 5 games (all wins)..not exactly "not long ago" in my book but you can spin your words all you want

Please go back and review the context of the FACTS i provided...it was in response to you opinion that Stockton was playing "important minutes" in the first 9 games.

I merely provided you with facts that up to the ND Game he played in close ball games averaged LESS THAN 8 minutes a game. I do not and still do not consider that important minutes (He has since played in IMPORTANT and VALUABLE minutes but lets keep this in perspective as the conversation was about the first 9 games).

His 11 minute average of playing time was in blow out wins against SOU (11 minutes), IUPUI (11 minutes), Eastern (11 minutes)

I thinkk we can agree that ZERO minutes in a game and 40 seconds in a game are not important minutes. So that leaves us with 4 other games, Marquette he played 4 minutes and Illinois he played 5 minutes. I think all would agree that is not important minutes in the overall scheme of a game.

So that leave WSU and K State

K State:
In at the 15;35 mark score was 10-4 KSTATE
Out at the 9;23 mark score was 23-17 K State

Push on the score spread and a 0 plus minus rating IMPORTANT

In at the 7;l12 makr 27-19 K State
Out at 4;47 mark 36-24 K State

-4 on score spread and a -4 plus minus rating IMPORTANT

In at the 13;57 mark second half 61-47 K state
Out at the 9;13 mark second half 70-54 K state BOARDERLINE

-2 on score spread and a -2 on plus minus rating

I see spot relief in this game, but I will concede one could state that he played in about 9 minutes of the critical part of this game

WSU

Inserted at the 8;49 mark 16-6 WSU
Taken out at 4;18 mark 30-17 WSU IMPORTANT

-3 in scoring spread

Inserted 18;16 mark 36-24 WSU lead
Removed 14;16 mark 47-33 WSU Lead IMPORTANT

-2 in scoring spread

inserted at the 8;09 mark 67-41 WSU lead GAME OVER
*I think we can agree this game was over at this point and the last 8 minutes played was not "important" minutes

I will concede that he played in about 8 minutes of critical time when this game was potentially in reach. The other 8 minutes was garbage time in my opinion as this game was over.



So I still feel my statement about the first 9 games of the season he did not play in very many (16 out of 360 possible minutes) important meaningful minutes. Of his total minutes played 76, he played in 16 minutes of what I consider important minutes as it pertains to the win or loss of a game. Most of his time was in garbage time where the outcome had been decided.

Or maybe we should agree on the definition of "most" but for me it would mean something close to 50-50 or in this case 30-35 minutes in important time frames and in the first 9 games he wasnt close to that marker.

Now he since has provide some very valuable minutes and has contributed to the team. Obviously Coach Few and staff understand the need to bring a player along at a pace that will not destroy that player and they have done very well in my book with DS.....he will continue to get the reserve minutes (and I have already stated it would not shock me to see him in front of MC)

I would love to have you explain the "important" minutes that you felt he was playing in the first 9 games of the season.

He has contributed mightly since then as a role player and has been important cogs in the zag team, but no way could anyone say he was playing important minutes the first 9 games if you are going to be half way honest with the actual minute breakdowns as compared to scores when inserted into a particular game.

But as posted before we can agree to disagree on roles, skill sets and the like. That is what makes opinions fun to read and discuss.

kclubfounder
01-04-2011, 05:49 PM
Talk about spin your quote below is spinning faster than any of my tops ever did as a kid:

"Additionally, he stated not all that long ago that Stockton had not played meaningful minutes, and that most of his playing time was during blowouts. He tried to provide stats to back this up. Problem with that logic is that Stockton was in before they were blowouts, or he was in early on after Meech proved to be ineffective...he was not simply placed in at the end of the game as suggested."

You are referring to my post December 15, at 11;37 hours. You call that "not long ago" hmmm that was 20 days ago and 5 games (all wins)..not exactly "not long ago" in my book but you can spin your words all you want

Please go back and review the context of the FACTS i provided...it was in response to you opinion that Stockton was playing "important minutes" in the first 9 games.

I merely provided you with facts that up to the ND Game he played in close ball games averaged LESS THAN 8 minutes a game. I do not and still do not consider that important minutes (He has since played in IMPORTANT and VALUABLE minutes but lets keep this in perspective as the conversation was about the first 9 games).

His 11 minute average of playing time was in blow out wins against SOU (11 minutes), IUPUI (11 minutes), Eastern (11 minutes)

I thinkk we can agree that ZERO minutes in a game and 40 seconds in a game are not important minutes. So that leaves us with 4 other games, Marquette he played 4 minutes and Illinois he played 5 minutes. I think all would agree that is not important minutes in the overall scheme of a game.

So that leave WSU and K State

K State:
In at the 15;35 mark score was 10-4 KSTATE
Out at the 9;23 mark score was 23-17 K State

Push on the score spread and a 0 plus minus rating IMPORTANT

In at the 7;l12 makr 27-19 K State
Out at 4;47 mark 36-24 K State

-4 on score spread and a -4 plus minus rating IMPORTANT

In at the 13;57 mark second half 61-47 K state
Out at the 9;13 mark second half 70-54 K state BOARDERLINE

-2 on score spread and a -2 on plus minus rating

I see spot relief in this game, but I will concede one could state that he played in about 9 minutes of the critical part of this game

WSU

Inserted at the 8;49 mark 16-6 WSU
Taken out at 4;18 mark 30-17 WSU IMPORTANT

-3 in scoring spread

Inserted 18;16 mark 36-24 WSU lead
Removed 14;16 mark 47-33 WSU Lead IMPORTANT

-2 in scoring spread

inserted at the 8;09 mark 67-41 WSU lead GAME OVER
*I think we can agree this game was over at this point and the last 8 minutes played was not "important" minutes

I will concede that he played in about 8 minutes of critical time when this game was potentially in reach. The other 8 minutes was garbage time in my opinion as this game was over.



So I still feel my statement about the first 9 games of the season he did not play in very many (16 out of 360 possible minutes) important meaningful minutes. Of his total minutes played 76, he played in 16 minutes of what I consider important minutes as it pertains to the win or loss of a game. Most of his time was in garbage time where the outcome had been decided.

Or maybe we should agree on the definition of "most" but for me it would mean something close to 50-50 or in this case 30-35 minutes in important time frames and in the first 9 games he wasnt close to that marker.

Now he since has provide some very valuable minutes and has contributed to the team. Obviously Coach Few and staff understand the need to bring a player along at a pace that will not destroy that player and they have done very well in my book with DS.....he will continue to get the reserve minutes (and I have already stated it would not shock me to see him in front of MC)

I would love to have you explain the "important" minutes that you felt he was playing in the first 9 games of the season.

He has contributed mightly since then as a role player and has been important cogs in the zag team, but no way could anyone say he was playing important minutes the first 9 games if you are going to be half way honest with the actual minute breakdowns as compared to scores when inserted into a particular game.

But as posted before we can agree to disagree on roles, skill sets and the like. That is what makes opinions fun to read and discuss.

Dude, I'm on your side with Meech, but I think you need to chill just a bit.

Hoopaholic
01-04-2011, 05:51 PM
:starwars:

MickMick
01-04-2011, 06:37 PM
you and a few others have had furballs in your throats over Meech for a long time. Some of you decided a long time ago he didn't belong as our starter.

ANd now it seems every advance by this young athlete is greeted with reluctant endorsements with too many qualifications. Yeah he's okay at this but he's not tall enough. Sure he almost got cut in half and has sacrificed his body but he can' shoot the trey. and blah blah blah.

It would be nice if all of you who couldn't wait to set this kid on fire would start to celebrate how important he is to this team. without all the qualifications, which, unlike most other Zags, have pretty much been beaten to death.

Yet, Meech is still there, still starting, still improving and still contributing mightily to the Zag success. You can get this kind of assessment just about anywhere except among the few on GUB who have never quite let him into your imaginary fold of adequate point guards for GU. it's gotten to the point that it reflects more on the critic than the subject anymore.



I simply disagree with giving him 100% credit for "holding stars under their average" when it is not entirely due. Similar to declaring that KO is a surefire NBA player. Or that the Zags are primed for a "deep run". The original post struck me as a similar type of declaration. Those "stars" padded stats against typically weak OOC competition and Meech wasn't "on them" as much as depicted.

It wasn't until very recently that Meech decided to take some shots. For me, that qualified him as a player that should see the court. Until then, the "furballs" were felt by a collective group that included far more than just a handful of people posting here.

When/if he stops taking shots and once again becomes a void on offense, I will once again reserve the right for the "furballs". As it is now, I'll agree with you on one thing. He has earned his place in the lineup. When I see the consistency demonstrated in the most recent games (since approximately Xavier....not that long ago), I might even lose the "with qualifications" part as well.

GeorgiaZagFan
01-04-2011, 06:59 PM
The first problem is the offense is TERRIBLE when Goodson is in the game...he does almost nothing positive to make things happen. The good teams do not respect his offense and so the rest of the team plays 4 against 5.
The second problem is HE'S THE BEST THE ZAGS HAVE!!!!
If he doesn't improve his offensive game, which is not just shooting but also includes the decision making of when to penetrate, when to pass, when to shoot then the Zags will not go very far this season!!!!

john montana
01-04-2011, 07:18 PM
Meech on offense is one issue (though as long as he is willing to take up space and be a threat he can be pretty effective) but how can anyone watch the actual game and think that meech is anything other than a great defender? He attacks the ball and allows us to switch on ball screens because he is so strong he can push a post player out. He is fantastic on defense!

gamagin
01-04-2011, 08:29 PM
I simply disagree with giving him 100% credit for "holding stars under their average" when it is not entirely due. Similar to declaring that KO is a surefire NBA player. Or that the Zags are primed for a "deep run". The original post struck me as a similar type of declaration. Those "stars" padded stats against typically weak OOC competition and Meech wasn't "on them" as much as depicted.

It wasn't until very recently that Meech decided to take some shots. For me, that qualified him as a player that should see the court. Until then, the "furballs" were felt by a collective group that included far more than just a handful of people posting here.

When/if he stops taking shots and once again becomes a void on offense, I will once again reserve the right for the "furballs". As it is now, I'll agree with you on one thing. He has earned his place in the lineup. When I see the consistency demonstrated in the most recent games (since approximately Xavier....not that long ago), I might even lose the "with qualifications" part as well.

I made none of the assertions you list Not one of them. I believe I've been advocating meech shooting even longer than you. By about a year. Going back to the first time some team sagged off him early last year.

All that aside, I do think it's time some respected posters take their boots and their posts off his neck long enough to give him credit where it's due, maybe even note that he has survived not just barely, but well, in a Zag uniform. The team has done well, too, despite all of us having favorite memories of days gone by.

This is today. Yesterday is gone forever.

So hold off all you like, MM. you are right in one sense. You are not alone.

Keep the furball deep as you like. But cough it up sometime and see, if you will, how the improvement of Meech has not only enhanced that of the team, but notice too, that the improvement of others, particularly underneath where he used to lose the ball over and over last year, suddenly, recently, has magically turned him into a more complete player.

Coincidence ? I don't think so. He wasn't the whole problem to begin with. He's not the whole solution.

I do think the team has finally come to realize how hard Meech works to get them the ball, even to mid court, and sometimes beyond, and are finally ready, eager, to finish the drive with a stuff, or a layin and one.

And the team has begun, as a result, to execute, as a unit.

So far, so good.

I believe that if/when this team breaks down, it will first happen underneath. And the last guy that will be shut down (versus over playing a play or losing the ball and being seated for trying too hard), if at all, will be Meech.

He is that good and that consistent and steady and reliable at what he does.

It's what happens after he reaches mid court -- with the other four -- that will determine our fate this year.

That includes Meech shooting when the ball is returned to him and he's open. He's started doing that. But he's a third or fourth choice, at best.

But his shooting, imo, is not the deal maker or the deal breaker for this team. SG, EH & RS are the three pillars upon which we fly or die.

Meech is not the weak spot. He is the third leg when one of the other three stumbles or breaks down (as they all have) and the fourth leg on a good day, like recently, making all else seem even steadier, and setting the table for Keita, MM, KO, MA & SD, among others, to shine.

And when he over tries or overplays, which happens, he sits while our other fine role players come in and do their thing for 8-10 minutes or more before Meech usually returns and contributes mightily, steadily, grindingly, until its all locked up.

That's what I see when I watch and how I think this team operates when it is operating well.

WallaWallaZag
01-05-2011, 07:30 AM
That's false, WallaWalla. First of all, Meech makes .216 pts. per minute while in, and David Stockton makes .257 pts. per minute while in. Secondly, David Stockton is most liked for his ability to make the passes and jumpstart the offense in setting up team-ball on offense.

ummm...zags observer, you're using a .041 pts per minute statistical difference to try and argue with me that stockton is a better scorer than meech, especially when it is such a deceiving stat??? first off statistics like points per minute don't always tell the whole story and secondly i wasn't even attacking stockton so i don't see your need to defend him...note i clearly indicated i thought stockton was a better shooter, passer, and possibly can run the offense better, especially under the right circumstances.

i was basically making a comment regarding meech's improvement recently in scoring during our win streak...like the past five games where he's scored 6, 6, 13, 7, and 8. stockton in those same 5 games? 0, 0, 0, 3, and 0 (though the 3 was quite an impressive 3 =). stockton has scored a total of 39 points in exactly 6 games, which means he hasn't scored a single point in the other 9 games. and stockton scored 7, 6, and 10 against southern, iupui, and lewis & clark. stockton's most impressive scoring game? 8 points against wazzu in a blowout. the only other game he even scored was 5 vs. k-state on 2-6 shooting and 1-4 from 3.

i think it's pretty clear my argument that meech is a better scorer and offensive threat compared to stockton despite his shooting limitations is pretty reasonable.

JPtheBeasta
01-05-2011, 08:01 AM
Meech _____.

A)Is a Zag
B)Gives A+ effort every game (see: the charge he took at Wake Forest)
C)Stays out of trouble off the court and seems to be a great kid
D)Is Few's #1 PG
E)Gave us one of the most exciting NCAA tournament game finishes ever
F)All of the above

Can we give the guy a break? I can't imagine another full year of this griping next year, too. There are at least two other Zags that come to mind that have underacheived more than he has this year. I'm hoping that all of you haters out there find someone new to pick on soon, with this new class we have coming in. Maybe one of the new guys will smell funny...

Zagsker
01-05-2011, 08:59 AM
The first problem is the offense is TERRIBLE when Goodson is in the game...he does almost nothing positive to make things happen. The good teams do not respect his offense and so the rest of the team plays 4 against 5.
The second problem is HE'S THE BEST THE ZAGS HAVE!!!!
If he doesn't improve his offensive game, which is not just shooting but also includes the decision making of when to penetrate, when to pass, when to shoot then the Zags will not go very far this season!!!!

I disagree to a point and keep in mind I am far from a Meech apologist, I have been critical of him over his career...with that being said....Meech actually taking shots is opening up the middle more than if he did not take shots. I truly believe if the guy would actually take some shots he could make 1 out of 4/5..possibly get on a streak and go 3 for 6/7, either way it will force his defender to have to atleast respect the fact that he will make one.....he is the type of player that needs to get in a rhythm....taking 1/2 shots a game is not going to help him or us

ronh_pm
01-05-2011, 10:01 AM
I truly believe if the guy would actually take some shots he could make 1 out of 4/5..possibly get on a streak and go 3 for 6/7, either way it will force his defender to have to atleast respect the fact that he will make one.....he is the type of player that needs to get in a rhythm....taking 1/2 shots a game is not going to help him or us

Meech actually has been shooting quite a bit more and has put up a minimum of eight shots the past three games.

2010-12-29 LAF 55, Zags 83 25 13 4-8 50.0
2010-12-31 OSU 52, Zags 73 29 7 2-8 25.0
2011-01-02 Zags 73, WFU 63 29 8 4-9 44.4

A picture is worth a 1000 words...well mabye not but it livens up a beat to death topic.

http://www.ronhole.com/blog/images/meech.jpg

cjm720
01-05-2011, 10:10 AM
Ron, what's the source for the graph? Nice find, thx.

Zagsker
01-05-2011, 10:11 AM
Meech actually has been shooting quite a bit more and has put up a minimum of eight shots the past three games.

2010-12-29 LAF 55, Zags 83 25 13 4-8 50.0
2010-12-31 OSU 52, Zags 73 29 7 2-8 25.0
2011-01-02 Zags 73, WFU 63 29 8 4-9 44.4

A picture is worth a 1000 words...well mabye not but it livens up a beat to death topic.

http://www.ronhole.com/blog/images/meech.jpg

well yeah...you got graphs and what not... I am just shooting from the hip...everything looks better with graphs:D

I should have clarified..I am assuming that a majority of the shots Meech has put up have been in the lane/runners...I am talking about beyond the arc

ronh_pm
01-05-2011, 10:23 AM
Ron, what's the source for the graph? Nice find, thx.

I have been using statsheet.com for some time now for stats. I can get lost looking at numbers for hours...as much as they compile stats, they also do some "kenpom" types of trending and analysis.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/gonzaga/demetri-goodson/game_stats?season=2010-2011&stat_type=1&game_type=1&chart1=assist_turnover_ratio&chart2=fg_attempted&chart3=fg_made&chart4=assists&chart5=

JPtheBeasta
01-05-2011, 01:41 PM
well yeah...you got graphs and what not... I am just shooting from the hip...everything looks better with graphs:D



http://brian.shaler.name/crappygraphs/user_graphs/347afa3f8bb2748533a97b27b879c77f.png
(Demetri Martin)

Hoopaholic
01-05-2011, 03:40 PM
Zagsker,
I have it the other way around.

Us focusing and trending towards the hi low action and the opposite post seal at the block from my opinion has created the attack angles on the pass back as defenders try to control these aspects of our offense.

This has created serious gaps from which the attack is natural and ALL of our guards need to take advantage of. If we have guards who continue to attack the gaps (shoot if open, pass if open or reverse it out), this will naturally force those sunk defenders who are cheating to cover the hi low action back to their natural lanes of defense, causinig a reverse effect of sacre, hi post and opposite wings to become open and the circle starts over again.

We have become a team of "pick your poison" as to what you are going to defend and I am liking what I see.

Zagsker
01-05-2011, 05:57 PM
http://brian.shaler.name/crappygraphs/user_graphs/347afa3f8bb2748533a97b27b879c77f.png
(Demetri Martin)

I disagree

the type of vegetation you are getting on the eastern slope is far too much....we are dealing with a rocky facade that allows minimal root adhesion.

ronh_pm
01-05-2011, 06:07 PM
What can I say. I'm a simple guy that likes pictures.

It makes me see things I normally might not, such as, Meech's assists go up when his field goal attempts go up. This may be obvious to some, but seeing it on paper (I should have included some circles and arrows) gives solid evidence for the camp that is pleading that he shoot more.

Besides the pictures give me something relelvant to babble about.

JPtheBeasta
01-06-2011, 07:57 AM
What can I say. I'm a simple guy that likes pictures.



Me, too. I didn't mean to offend... just wanted to work that in because I thought it was funny.

ronh_pm
01-06-2011, 08:29 AM
Me, too. I didn't mean to offend... just wanted to work that in because I thought it was funny.

Lol...no worries..Though I'm usually to stubborn and or stupid to stand down, I'm too old and have seen too much to worry a heck off a lot about the little things in life.

I enjoy a good poke to lighten me up every know and then.

Hmm..that doesn't sound quite right.

ZagMan
01-06-2011, 10:15 AM
Ok, I never post on here, but had to for this. A couple of you people need to get a room or something. There is some kind of serious love/hate relationship going on here and this topic really has been beat to DEATH. Please end this thread already.

Once and Future Zag
01-06-2011, 10:38 AM
Ok, I never post on here, but had to for this. A couple of you people need to get a room or something. There is some kind of serious love/hate relationship going on here and this topic really has been beat to DEATH. Please end this thread already.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

ZagNative
01-06-2011, 10:41 AM
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.pngMy gosh! That is hysterical!

Hoopaholic
01-06-2011, 04:48 PM
619

WeSayZed
01-07-2011, 07:50 PM
might suggest you reread your own post where YOU stated


"he’s a somewhat better than average defender, but no more than that."


you think he is somewhat better than average, I think he is above average defender .....we can agree to disagree


I will be the first to provide what I feel are honest observations and opinions, I do these from a coaching perspective not a fan perspective. You will FIND NO WHERE in any of my posts an assertion that Goodson is an all american, that he is a perfect PG or that he is an offensive juggernaut. He does fit the piece of the puzzle nicely and bring skills sets to the table that a succesful team needs.

I think we can simply agree to disagree that in my opinion he is an effective PG on the Zags current squad makeup and provides valuable components to this team, that without it we probably would be looking at not making ANOTHER run at the WCC title.


What part of this assessment am I way off base? as this is what I felt would be his role from the start:

Takes care of the basketball
Creates up tempo
Understand and implements coaches o and d strategies
Can beat full court pressure
Tough as Nails
Rebound well for a PG
Defend the other PG so they have trouble with offensive flow
Make free throws
Drive the gaps-hit mid range jumper
Get 3.4 to 4.5 assists per game
Limit the turnovers
Make sure the BIG three are getting their touches and scoring opportunities
I apologise in advance for reviving this thread, but I just have to respond to this post.

Hoopaholic, first you completely misquoted me, and now you’re essentially completely misquoting yourself! You’ve got my quote right this time:


he’s a somewhat better than average defender, but no more than that.

But you’ve apparently forgotten what you said I said:


in your mind that doesn’t equate to above average defense.

For whatever reason you’re completely, and I mean COMPLETELY, incapable of being honest on this issue. I don’t know whether this is deliberate spin on your part, or if you’re just having some kind of Chris Crocker moment. Either way, this is why it’s impossible to talk to you on this issue.

There’s nothing wrong with being a fan of Meech, btw. We all hope for the best for him, but what you’re doing here is not about being a fan.

ZagNative
01-07-2011, 08:27 PM
What we have here is a failure to communicate ...

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_UkLNCxT74w4/TSf07LyejvI/AAAAAAABPMI/OqVq6sZ0scQ/What%20we%20say%20to%20dogs-2.jpg

Hoopaholic
01-07-2011, 08:30 PM
yep....forums makes it difficult to communicate as it pertains to select words and how to emphasize the different interpretations of the words....

I have stuck a fork in it and we can move on, enjoying the rest of the season as it unfolds for us