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mendiant
05-31-2007, 08:39 PM
A little local news regarding the two today. They are both still in school and Josh (who was the focus of this piece) is doing well in summer school and with his community service obligations.

He completed Spring quarter last year with good grades.

Word from this news item was that the jury was still out regarding the pairs' return to the basketball program (I personally think it is in the bag, unless they screw up big time once again...they are young..it could happen...I hope not).

I was in safeway last week and nearly ran over this tall kid...I smiled and excused myself, he was our Josh. Pre trial facial hair back...had to chuckle.

I thought the day afterward that I should have directed him toward the produce aisle (for shrooms) rather than the deli dept which is where the encounter took place.

But then we think again...

I sincerely hope that these two kids pull their heads out of their butts and realize the opportunites that they have in this program.

I want to be able to enthusiastically applaud them next season.

But I feel a little burned.

Gonzaga is a special place, even to someone such as myself, who never attended the school, but merely lived in it's shadow.

To take that forgranted is wrong...

I imagine myself in the crowd next year, politely applauding the two, while enthusiastically giving my best cheers for the rest.

I have hope that my cheers will become enthusiastic for the whole TEAM, if, and only if, the two in question recognize the importance of the TEAM concept.

former1dog
05-31-2007, 08:46 PM
Mendiant,

Thank you very much for penning a sentiment that I share.

-F1Dog

cougs4ever
05-31-2007, 09:36 PM
I thought Josh was still attending classes? My brother ran into him on campus last week.

Same day, I went to the Safeway (probably the same one as Mendiant) and pulled into a spot 2-cars down from Will. You have never seen anyone have to stoop over a grocery cart like that young man! Anyways . . . he looked thicker than last year. He gave my 18-pack of Miller Lite a dirty look, but I suspect that was because I was dressed like a Mormon missionary (white button-up shirt and black pants).

When does spring quarter/semester end?

GonzagaGurl08
05-31-2007, 10:11 PM
Spring Semester ended early May, like the second week. But now, summer school has started. The guys should be taking a few classes for both sessions. Correct me if I am wrong, but the high school guys (Sacre, Gray, and Daye, that rhymes) will be here at the start of Summer Session 2.

soonerterp
05-31-2007, 10:34 PM
Mendiant thanks for posting that. I have been wondering about them.

Nevtelen
06-01-2007, 12:24 AM
Glad to hear the facial hair's back. I thought Josh looked good with the goatee. I'll be cheering him and Theo on next year as loudly as everybody else. I have to say I really liked Josh's little in-game stare-downs, as juvenile as they occasionally seemed. Those and Pargo's scowl. Ah, to see the scowl and the stare-down together again on the court!

Zag79
06-01-2007, 12:26 AM
I sincerely hope that these two kids pull their heads out of their butts and realize the opportunites that they have in this program.
I want to be able to enthusiastically applaud them next season.
But I feel a little burned.
Gonzaga is a special place, even to someone such as myself, who never attended the school, but merely lived in it's shadow.
To take that forgranted is wrong...
good lord. this is the high and mighty post i dread on these boards. i know your gonna beat me for this post mendiant :p but i couldnt resist. have you ever been on that campus on the wkends? been down in the Kennel Club smelling the breath of the chanting kids, you know, the "zag material"? been to other "top notch schools" like GU and seen someone mess up? let it go, youll be a better person for it. ;)

VaBeachZAG
06-01-2007, 03:50 AM
Sorry ZAG79, but I, with the majority on this thread, agree with Mendiant. Can and should we move on, certainly. Should we forget, absolutely not/never. Let's give Mendiant some space and respect here!

CDC84
06-01-2007, 07:19 AM
Correct me if I am wrong, but the high school guys (Sacre, Gray, and Daye, that rhymes) will be here at the start of Summer Session 2.

Yes. The new guys should be at GU by July 1.

former1dog
06-01-2007, 07:25 AM
good lord. this is the high and mighty post i dread on these boards. i know your gonna beat me for this post mendiant :p but i couldnt resist. have you ever been on that campus on the wkends? been down in the Kennel Club smelling the breath of the chanting kids, you know, the "zag material"? been to other "top notch schools" like GU and seen someone mess up? let it go, youll be a better person for it. ;)


I was going to predict your response when I posted in this thread last night. I see I was spot on.

zzzjag
06-01-2007, 07:53 AM
I thought the comment about directing Josh to the produce dept and the shrooms reduced what was otherwise a good post.

thespywhozaggedme
06-01-2007, 08:28 AM
79,
You are definately in the minority with that opinion. Mendiant is a well respected poster on this and the previous boards. Probably the most respected. maybe because she thinks before she writes, unlike me and most of my male counterparts. lol You pointing to other bad behavior to justify this bad behavior. The "he did it first" excuse became unacceptable in about the 1st grade. These guys screwed up and were very selfish, putting themselves above their teammates. That being said they are dealing with the punishment dealt them, as they should. I will root for them because of the name on the front of the jersey not the back. Guys like Pendo, I will cheer for him where ever he goes and whatever he does. Now lets move foward and make our first FF. Go Zags!

sonuvazag
06-01-2007, 08:38 AM
Kernals of truth in 79's post: alcohol fues the energy of the student-fans... does anyone want to breathalize and discipline all of them who are mostly underage? Many players who get high marks for character on GU Boards are probably only different from Theo and Josh in the sense they did not get caught.

I don't know. Does anyone? What we don't know... is better unknown.

Clap less enthusiastically for Josh and Theo if you feel you must hold your hurt to be true to yourself. The scot-free offenders you clap for w/out reservations are honorable?

I don't have any inside scoop or knowledge here that gives cred to what I believe is probable so feel free to dispute the notion that most student-athletes and most non-athlete students party alike and in illegal ways.

Thanks to liability of costly lawsuits, Campus partying has become safer, more institutionalized. There are always dangers in self-abusive behavior, but 18-22 year olds acting irresponsibly is par for the course and universities seem to be getting better at managing the risk. Good thing, I think.

So, I get where most of us feel about discipline. Josh and Theo should be asked to work hard to prove themselves. The discipline they endure shows the others the consequence is not worth the risk. You can't change the fact that they screwed up and dishonored the team. Sorry Zag79, whatever is typical of student althlete behavior doesn't change the reality that is: Zag basketball fever.

Few keeps them for the good of the team and I root for the team. All parts equally. I am over it. What they did was wrong. It's over. We can all agree, the program smarts and is wiser now, right?

BobZag
06-01-2007, 08:46 AM
Just curious, but what year did mushrooms morph into 'shrooms? I've been around since Elvis first started his career and I must've missed when this word transformation took place. Like I said, I'm just curious. I did major in English, after all.

To speak with Mrs. Heytvelt for 40 minutes is to get some insight that the media will never give. The media is so effed up on this it's pathetic. What was once Huntley-Brinkley and Walter Cronkite is now Entertainment Tonight quality.

What a joke.

Josh received a 3.2 gpa last semester. He is atoning for his "sins." With a little luck, the Zags fan judge-and-jury won't order a rope too soon.

GonzagaGurl08
06-01-2007, 08:56 AM
Congrats to Josh on the 3.2 GPA. I always had the gut feeling he could do well. It was just a matter of applying himself. Superficially it may seem that Josh doesn't really care about school but judging by that GPA it shows that he does care.

CDC84
06-01-2007, 09:15 AM
I think it is easy for us to lose sight of all that Josh has gone through and is still going thru. Folks, a felony diversion program is absolute hell. Many elect to just to go to the slammer rather than endure it. You're constantly monitored, your peeing in a cup every half minute, you're attending one boring group meeting after the next, you're constantly reporting to law enforcement officials, et cetera. It's just a total pain. He's probably more busy right now than during the basketball season.

On top of all this, he's trying to rebuild relationships with his teammates, the coaching staff, and the program in general. And then he has to deal with a whole host of unforgiving community members, fans and media people.

In short, it sucks.

What he's going thru brings a whole new meaning to the phrase "paying a penance."

sonuvazag
06-01-2007, 09:21 AM
What he's going thru brings a whole new meaning to the phrase "paying a penance."
Worse than 5 hail marys and 5 our fathers?

former1dog
06-01-2007, 09:37 AM
In short, it sucks.

What he's going thru brings a whole new meaning to the phrase "paying a penance."


CDC,

I may have as much respect for you than anyone on this board or its predecessor, BUT on this one, Boo-effin-hoo.

If you can't do the time, you should not have done the crime (literally in this case).

Here's the typical regiment of a student athlete I was very familiar with ---

Practice year round, every single day.
18 credit hours every semester so he could graduate in 4 years.
He ended up getting a pretty decent GPA, by the way.
This athlete needed to work to help pay his way through school, so add 20 hours of work a week for his final 3 years of school.
Athlete was also in ROTC, so you add that to the academic, practice and work load.
This guy was no Josh Heytvelt in terms of athletic ability or talent, but he did all right. Managed to make a few all conference teams.

Not once, ever, did he get himself even close to dishonoring his school or team by being arrested or letting his team down by partying before a big competition (hell, any competition for that matter). This guy was, again, a typical student athlete, nothing special.

Sorry for the vitriol. When Josh proves himself in the classroom and on the court over the long haul, then I might be willing to cut him some slack.

RenoZag
06-01-2007, 09:42 AM
. . . And then he has to deal with a whole host of unforgiving community members, fans and media people.

In short, it sucks.

What he's going thru brings a whole new meaning to the phrase "paying a penance."

I don't think any of us would want to trade places with him. As I've said before, I'm rooting for JH & TD to come out of this ordeal as better men; if they're better basketball players, that's icing on the cake.

CDC84
06-01-2007, 10:11 AM
former1dog = You are completely misunderstanding my point. I am not from the camp that believes that what Josh did was no big deal (partying happens at all colleges, etc.), or that we should all get on our hands and knees and give him gobs of sympathy. His actions on that night were stupid and irresponsible.

What I am addressing is that there are certain people out there who are continuing to whip him like a dead horse who have no conception of how much he has already been whipped. The kid is on the right track, he's doing well......like his teammates and coaches, I'm rooting him on.

There are ways of actually doing this without being in complete denial about the gravity of what took place this past February. I am not saying that you or anyone in this thread are a part of the "order me a rope" crowd, but there are those people. Those people just need to move on with it.........

GonzagaGurl08
06-01-2007, 10:24 AM
I agree with you completely CDC. Josh has made great strides since February, and it will only get better from here. How about instead of rooting against someone on our own team, we root for them. As we are loyal fans to the Zags as a team, we can also be loyal to the players as individuals. JMHO.

former1dog
06-01-2007, 10:27 AM
former1dog = You are completely misunderstanding my point. I am not from the camp that believes that what Josh did was no big deal (partying happens at all colleges, etc.), or that we should all get on our hands and knees and give him gobs of sympathy. His actions on that night were stupid and irresponsible.

What I am addressing is what BobZag is addressing...that there are certain people out there who are continuing to whip him like a dead horse who have no conception of how much he has already been whipped. The kid is on the right track, he's doing well......like his teammates and coaches, I'm rooting him on.

There are ways of actually doing this without being in complete denial about the gravity of what took place this past February. I am not saying that you or anyone in this thread are a part of the "order me a rope" crowd, but there are those people. Those people just need to move on with it.........

You're probably correct, CDC. I probably am misunderstanding you. Sorry if I came across too strongly.

I'm not calling for a lynching, just some perspective, and my opinion that my personal respect for Josh and Theo isn't going to be won back easily.

former1dog
06-01-2007, 10:28 AM
I agree with you completely CDC. Josh has made great strides since February, and it will only get better from here. How about instead of rooting against someone on our own team, we root for them. As we are loyal fans to the Zags as a team, we can also be loyal to the players as individuals. JMHO.


Good point. I am rooting for Josh and Theo to get their act together completely. I'm not rooting against that, sorry if it seemed otherwise.

BobZag
06-01-2007, 11:00 AM
My point was more directed at the media, TV news to be specific. I haven't watched the news since I can't remember. It's tabloid sh!t. If anyone swallows what Stephanie Vigil or whoever is the pretty face nowadays says, they might as well subscribe to The Enquirer. They get very little correct. They are lazy. They don't bother any longer with double-checking their "facts". It's become a joke.

And we all know of wonderful feats in school. The single mom taking 20 credits while working 50 hours a week and driving her child to soccer and basketball games and camps, who graduated Magna Cum Laude in three years. We all know those stories. Josh doesn't compare, not even remotely. Neither do I or all my friends.

MickMick
06-01-2007, 11:13 AM
My big concern with Josh is that fatherhood should be a sobering event that adds a level of maturity. A difference maker that didn't make a difference.

Having said that, I have forgiven him as a basketball fan. I will surely rise out of my seat whenever he rejects the opposing post player.

cggonzaga
06-01-2007, 11:47 AM
Glad to see there are some people on this board and around town willing to forgive Josh. I'm personally tired of the "Josh disrespected the University, town and state" arguments. Yes he did embarass the university and himself but that's it. He didn't hurt any of you directly. He made a mistake that affects his life and his life only. If some of you really feel so hurt by what he did then you probably need to get a life. It was stupid and immature and hopefully something he learns from. Other than that it's really none of our business. If you don't want to root for him than don't. Just don't jump on the bandwagon and forgive him when he's tearing it up on the court.

TimZag
06-01-2007, 11:51 AM
Seriously, are the actions of these two so horribly bad that they are unforgivable to you even if their coaches and teammates have got over it?

I'll be the one to take Zag79's side (as long as we're not talking about GU guards). What they did is not a misrepresentation of the GU student population. If your friend, or even child, had been guilty of the same offense, would you clap less for him or her? After they did all they could to try and make up for their offense?

These guys aren't murderers. Theo might be the most down to earth basketball player on scholarship in the country. And you're going to look down on him because he was smoking a blunt when he wasn't even playing the next day? If you knew the amount of students currently enrolled at GU who are on scholarship and have done the same thing, you might not be able to call Gonzaga such a special place that he was taking for granted.

And I don't want to hear that they were putting themselves ahead of the team. I'm pretty sure their thought process was that they had no chance of getting caught. Josh was probably intending on being ready to play the next day and intended on playing well. He was dumb enough not to realize the risk, but it was a stupid decision, not a consciously selfish one.

You don't need to agree with their actions, and you may find them more immoral than some of us. You can be mad and disappointed, but to think of them as lesser Zags after going through what they are currently going through is more thoughtless than what they did.

J-Mac Zag Forever
06-01-2007, 11:52 AM
45 years ago I went to a small Caholic High School where there were 18 boys in the senior class. All but 3 had to go out for sports so we could even field a team. As good little Catholic boys we would go to Mass as a team settingan example for other students. We were good little boys during the day and when dusk came would go looking for trouble. Never got caught thru high school till our senior year. The night before the the biggest game of our young lives we got caught. Parents found out and told our Principle/Priest that we had partied the night before and at ten the next morning many were still drunk and had not been to bed. The game started at 2:00pm and 10,000 were attending so it could not be cancelled. After the team prayer Father walked over to the team Captains and just about took their heads off ( they were not even at the party) and for a priest he certainly knew how to cuss.

I think of all the wild things we did and how lucky we were never getting caught by the law. However for that sin we did pay the price. Father brought the entire team before the student body( 200 students), he made 4 of that had been to the party put on boxing gloves and proceeded to beat the xxxx out of us. The rest of the school year was full Hell on earth. We paid the price.

When day turns to night not all good little Angelic Catholic boys are tucked in their beds. Their are those who are so quick to judge yet would hang their heads in shame if all their sins were known.

Josh and Theo should be punished. If they get good grades and are good team mates, do their penance then we need let it go. I understand where many of you are coming from. You are past Zags and how dare they bring shame to you and Gonzaga. This is as much about you as it is about the school and the basketball program.

In other words your own EGO's. LET IT GO. You are doing as much to hurt the team and the program as Josh and Theo. If Josh and Theo do things right, I can forgive them. Its you I have a problem with. You are all so Holy.
I do not believe you bring honor to Gonzaga.

How would Christ handle it and how would he have you handle it. Why don't you try asking him. Lets get back to basketball. I know that if they are on the floor they are doing things right. It is the only way coach Few will have it. Meaning I will cheer for the WHOLE TEAM.

Excuse the english. It was never my favorite class. Harder yet when I'm upset.

Side note. The Angels that took the field that Saturday afternoon 45 years ago won the game. The other team ended the game with a total of -33yards. We were then ranked by several publication's in the top ten in the nation.


GO ZAGS!

former1dog
06-01-2007, 12:26 PM
Josh and Theo should be punished. If they get good grades and are good team mates, do their penance then we need let it go. I understand where many of you are coming from. You are past Zags and how dare they bring shame to you and Gonzaga. This is as much about you as it is about the school and the basketball program.

All due respect, JMAC, in your anger you missed that what you wrote is exactly the point I was making. Maybe not quite as well as you made it.


In other words your own EGO's. LET IT GO. You are doing as much to hurt the team and the program as Josh and Theo. If Josh and Theo do things right, I can forgive them.

I kinda wish you would have stopped right here, as again you reiterate the exact same point I was making.

Perhaps it is a little bit about ego. Aren't we all proud of our school and its legacy, though? As someone who was part of the athletic tradition, I do know that I want future generations to excel and bring acclaim to the school. Is that a selfish of me?

ZagNative
06-01-2007, 12:36 PM
In other words your own EGO's. LET IT GO. You are doing as much to hurt the team and the program as Josh and Theo. If Josh and Theo do things right, I can forgive them. Its you I have a problem with. You are all so Holy.

I do not believe you bring honor to Gonzaga.

How would Christ handle it and how would he have you handle it. Why don't you try asking him. Lets get back to basketball. I know that if they are on the floor they are doing things right. It is the only way coach Few will have it. Meaning I will cheer for the WHOLE TEAM.

Wow. I could not agree more.

I am less interested in whether the fans will forgive Josh for his transgressions than whether Josh will forgive many in the GU fan base who turned on him with such vitriol when he made a mistake, and who, even after he'd done all that he was supposed to do, kept haranguing, and haranguing, and moralizing, and preaching, and stirring the kettle of suspicion and resentment ...

I wonder what Josh's advice would be to a new recruit: "Don't be misled by the adulation and cheers, friend. These fans may look like a family, but don't be fooled brother. The first time you make a misstep, they'll eat you alive. You think the fact that this is a Christian institution and that Christ commanded us to forgive will give you a shot at redemption? Trust me: Make a mistake and watch what happens with a lot of those who most proudly boast the label "Christian."

former1dog
06-01-2007, 12:46 PM
I am less interested in whether the fans will forgive Josh for his transgressions than whether Josh will forgive many in the GU fan base who turned on him with such vitriol when he made a mistake, and who, even after he'd done all that he was supposed to do, kept haranguing, and haranguing, and moralizing, and preaching, and stirring the kettle of suspicion and resentment ...

Well isn't that a statement that I can't agree with at all!
[Edited to be a little nicer. Sometimes you get my hackles up ZN]

How exactly has the fan base turned on Josh and Theo?

I know of very few people that have called for their dismissal, which isn't so unreasonable, really, considering the fate of students who have been expelled from the university for similar crimes.

I see people calling for consequences and tough love. Josh, for instance, had 21(22) years and the birth of a child to learn to get it right. That didn't work, now he is subject to the criminal justice system and the rightful skepticism of the fan base of Gonzaga University. Most of us want to see him do well, especially for his daughter's sake.

You mean to tell me we should have all taken him by the hand and said, "Oh its ok Josh, no harm no foul. Should I get you a soda. Here's the TV remote. When you feel up to it, maybe you can play a little basketball for our enjoyment."

Christ said to each of the sinner's he forgave, "Go now and sin no more." Ya think that's a cakewalk? Going and sinning no more is a heavy responsibility, fraught with temptation, hard work and personal sacrifice. This whole community is saying to Josh and Theo, WE FORGIVE YOU, GO NOW AND SIN NO MORE.

What could be more Christian than that?

ZagNative
06-01-2007, 01:46 PM
Christ said to each of the sinner's he forgave, "Go now and sin no more." Ya think that's a cakewalk? Going and sinning no more is a heavy responsibility, frought with temptation, hard work and personal sacrifice. This whole community is saying to Josh and Theo, WE FORGIVE YOU, GO NOW AND SIN NO MORE.

What could be more Christian than that?

F1D, Christ's forgiveness was and is unconditional. It was not and is not contingent on us sinning no more. Thanks be to God, because a whole lot of us repeat our boneheaded mistakes.

And when Christ forgave sinners, he did not deputize the rest of the citizenry to keep an eye on the sinner and report any infractions, so that the forgiveness originally granted might be revoked.

In fact, he told us pretty clearly, in Matthew 7, that we ought to mind our own damned business where other people's "sins" are concerned:


1 Judge not, that you be not judged.
2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.
3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?
4 Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye?
5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

When Josh's wrong-doing was initially reported, I wanted him OFF the team. I couldn't imagine how Coach Few and his team mates would be able to forgive him, and I was just livid over his knuckleheaded behavior. The University and the coaching staff decided to give him another chance. End of story. As far as I'm concerned, he's part of the family. He's paid a HUGE price, HUGE.

Now I think it's up to us to pull together and do everything we can to help him succeed, for HIS sake and the sake of the program. I think we need to show love and support and not udgmentalness and suspicion. Hey, I know you'll disagree, F1D, but I consider threads like this one an embarrassment. To me, it seems like an unproductive rehashing of stuff we've been over and over and over.

I'm sorry I get your goat, F1D, but, you know, friend, sometimes the feeling is mutual!;)

former1dog
06-01-2007, 01:51 PM
Now I think it's up to us to pull together and do everything we can to help him succeed, for HIS sake and the sake of the program. I think we need to show love and support and not udgmentalness and suspicion. Hey, I know you'll disagree, F1D, but I consider threads like this one an embarrassment. To me, it seems like an unproductive rehashing of stuff we've been over and over and over.

I'm sorry I get your goat, but, you know, friend, sometimes the feeling is mutual!;)

Good points, ZN. I think we each had a chance to state our points. I respect where you're coming from and I hope you respect mine as well.

Nothing to be embarrassed about, ZN. It's part of big family life... I should know, I've got 7 sisters and 3 brothers. :)

Anywho, though, I agree, lets drop it and move on.

Peace,

Brother

sonuvazag
06-01-2007, 02:50 PM
Part of all this sensationalism, moralizing, and constant rehashing is a little embarrassing and annoying. So much self-concern and self-righteousness as a community. We have even resorted to moralizing about over-moralizing. I noticed in my post I do my part in making judgements saying that what they did was wrong and dishonorable, but by no means do I intend to point the finger at these kids without recognizing the proverbial plank. In this case, I feel like the plank is our tendency to tell each other how to feel, react, discern, etc. The plank also prevents us from seeing a positive quality in all this rehashing. We care about our kids. We don't want them to have to go through scandal. We want them to stand up for and be there for each other, we want them to shine... that's why we're so torqued off.

We may be going in circles discussing this right now, but there will be a time when all this circular energy escapes the infinite loop. What we want for that energy to become is a story of comeback and redemption. I also want these kids to have an awesome year.

steventreich
06-01-2007, 03:10 PM
Can people leave religion out of the discussion? Heytvelt is a kid. Screwed up. Like all kids do. Leave him alone, let it go, let the kid play, support your team.

MickMick
06-01-2007, 03:12 PM
This discussion will be brought up in the future many times over. Imagine a disgruntled fan of an opposing team next March. His team just got bumped from the dance and he picks up the handiest ammunition to fire back. We are going to hear "Shroomgate" or "Zig Zags" more than we will be able to tolerate.

Remember that top 40 song on the radio that they played so often, you could hardly stand to listen to it anymore? That is how Zag fans will feel by the end of the upcoming season.

So here we are playing that record again as if we aren't going to hear it a thousand more times. What I recommend is this.... we get it out of our systems so that we can present a consistent message to all those opposing fans next season. That being, "This is simply old news and not worthy of further discussion." The rest of the world will beat this dead horse enough without us adding to it. Then we will all realize that these young men (and Zag Nation :() have probably paid enough of a price.

On a final note: Do you think the press is going to let this go? Guess what the major storyline heading into each major game is going to be? Especially if Josh or Theo are having very good seasons (Feelgood story) or very bad seasons (they got their due). If they are having a poor season, I will not be one of the fans that turns on them (At least in a mean spirited way, there is a difference between being honest and being personal). Treat them like family. Scold them when they are bad, but encourage them when they are down.

former1dog
06-01-2007, 03:15 PM
Oh you're a wiley old veteran MickMick, that is exactly correct and is what will happen over and over again.

MickMick
06-01-2007, 03:33 PM
Oh you're a wiley old veteran MickMick, that is exactly correct and is what will happen over and over again.

Why...thank you :)

TheZagPhish
06-01-2007, 03:50 PM
You're awesome!

former1dog
06-01-2007, 03:58 PM
You're awesome!


Right back at ya.... :D And that goes for the rest of ya's, too!

lothar98zag
06-01-2007, 04:39 PM
Can people leave religion out of the discussion?
Why?

Nevtelen
06-01-2007, 04:48 PM
This discussion will be brought up in the future many times over. Imagine a disgruntled fan of an opposing team next March. His team just got bumped from the dance and he picks up the handiest ammunition to fire back. We are going to hear "Shroomgate" or "Zig Zags" more than we will be able to tolerate.

Remember that top 40 song on the radio that they played so often, you could hardly stand to listen to it anymore? That is how Zag fans will feel by the end of the upcoming season.

So here we are playing that record again as if we aren't going to hear it a thousand more times. What I recommend is this.... we get it out of our systems so that we can present a consistent message to all those opposing fans next season. That being, "This is simply old news and not worthy of further discussion." The rest of the world will beat this dead horse enough without us adding to it. Then we will all realize that these young men (and Zag Nation :() have probably paid enough of a price.

On a final note: Do you think the press is going to let this go? Guess what the major storyline heading into each major game is going to be? Especially if Josh or Theo are having very good seasons (Feelgood story) or very bad seasons (they got their due). If they are having a poor season, I will not be one of the fans that turns on them (At least in a mean spirited way, there is a difference between being honest and being personal). Treat them like family. Scold them when they are bad, but encourage them when they are down.

I definitely agree with that. Do we need _another_ of these threads? Haven't we had this out a few times already and pretty much just agreed to disagree?