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View Full Version : We are not that far away from being good



zag buddy
12-16-2010, 03:32 AM
We have lost 5 games to teams in the top 7% or 8% of the nation.( I didn't do the math but top 25 is about 1/14). We lost 1 game by 3 pts, one game by 4 pts and at different times we were in the other 3 games. We do not have to make major changes, just shore up the basics and we will do just fine. Reduce turnovers, pass better, etc. I think it is going to come together guys. Go zags

zagzilla
12-16-2010, 09:47 AM
From the team's perspective, there is complete clarity about where we need to adjust-3 pt defense, limit turnovers and a return to form by EH. The worst thing would be if we had a different issue each game. Remedies would hard to implement.

Not so here. Players and coaches just need to get on the same page and buy-in to the program.

Easy right? Hope so!

ZZ

MDABE80
12-16-2010, 10:04 AM
It's not so much the losing, it's the "how" and "why" we lose.
It's almost always the same: poor rebounding, high turnovers and bad defense. It's been like this for years. It seems worse this year as we appear to be less talented, injured and because the schedule is harder.

Here's a rundown of our national rankings for defense:

Defensive efficiency, 108th. Scoring defense, 256th. Field-goal-percentage defense, 224th. Three-point defense, 314th. Blocks, 258th. Steals, 197th

It's not the offense. It's the defense across the board. Somebody needs to tell Few, there is another component to the game besides offense. He emphasis has always been on offense. Defense wins games and we are a long way from being "good" now and in the future if this isn't corrected.

ZagLawGrad
12-16-2010, 10:07 AM
... Somebody needs to tell Few, there is another component to the game besides offense. .

Abe, I'm okay with you giving Coach a call. :)

MDABE80
12-16-2010, 10:37 AM
We used to wash our cars downtown on Saturdays and I would...and did! That "wash" on 2nd avenue was bought by the Miller people and they closed it. Drat!! of all Drats!

webspinnre
12-16-2010, 10:51 AM
Defense wins games and we are a long way from being "good" now and in the future if this isn't corrected.

Outscoring your opponents wins games, of which defense is one component. I agree that defense is important, but lets not go to some "defense wins championships" cliche. Being good wins championships, and right now we just aren't that good.

HOOTER
12-16-2010, 11:37 AM
Not sure how far from good we are, but we're getting better. We certainly can't use tonights game as a way go gauge where we're at, but we'll certainly have a better idea come Saturday afternoon. I do agree that more of an emphasis needs to be placed on defense if things are going to improve enough to win big games.

MDABE80
12-16-2010, 11:45 AM
Web: choke off your oppenents' rebounds, keep the ball safe and choke off the ability to score for opponents...that wins games if you don't have baffoons on offense ( we don't BTW).

We do fine on offense. We die with our defense.<--not a cliche.

primal23
12-16-2010, 11:57 AM
We are also not that far from being bad. But I'm a glass half empty kinda guy

cjm720
12-16-2010, 12:51 PM
It's hard to be good when players and coaches lack confidence in each other....let's take care of the basics and get the confidence up

229SintoZag
12-16-2010, 02:56 PM
It's not so much the losing, it's the "how" and "why" we lose.
It's almost always the same: poor rebounding, high turnovers and bad defense. It's been like this for years. It seems worse this year as we appear to be less talented, injured and because the schedule is harder.

Here's a rundown of our national rankings for defense:

Defensive efficiency, 108th. Scoring defense, 256th. Field-goal-percentage defense, 224th. Three-point defense, 314th. Blocks, 258th. Steals, 197th

It's not the offense. It's the defense across the board. Somebody needs to tell Few, there is another component to the game besides offense. He emphasis has always been on offense. Defense wins games and we are a long way from being "good" now and in the future if this isn't corrected.

Abe

Not to nitpick, but one area where we have generally been pretty good this year is rebounding. Especially offensive rebounding.

We are currently #31 of 345 D-1 schools in rebounding margin.

HOOTER
12-16-2010, 03:24 PM
Rebounding margin can sometimes be misleading. Look at the Washington State game.

Yep, rebounding and freethrows were solid in that game. We need to quit letting teams take shooting practice against us. The main problem is clearly defense.

MDABE80
12-16-2010, 03:31 PM
Abe

Not to nitpick, but one area where we have generally been pretty good this year is rebounding. Especially offensive rebounding.

We are currently #31 of 345 D-1 schools in rebounding margin.

Sinto....look at the results against the ranked teams. There...right there is the story. I pretty sure that the #31 includes ALL games where we can dominate on the boards. But when it comes to the game that make the difference. We lost the boards and have huge turnovers.
Listen we get our ass beat when we shouldn't...all this takes in the one thing we can control...defense. Rebounding should be easy when a team has a stront 7 footer and another one who's not so strong.

Turnovers are gigantic and it's not Meech. He's fine that way. It's the Grays, Sacre's etc that are giving the ball away without even a shot. YIKES! lol

It could be worse...go back to the 60s and 70s...you'll see worse ok!! But we had beers;)

Angelo Roncalli
12-16-2010, 04:00 PM
Baldwin....look at the results against the ranked teams. There...right there is the story. I pretty sure that the #31 includes ALL games where we can dominate on the boards. But when it comes to the game that make the difference. We lost the boards and have huge turnovers.
Listen we get our ass beat when we shouldn't...all this takes in the one thing we can control...defense. Rebounding should be easy when a team has a stront 7 footer and another one who's not so strong.

Turnovers are gigantic and it's not Meech. He's fine that way. It's the Grays, Sacre's etc that are giving the ball away without even a shot. YIKES! lol

It could be worse...go back to the 60s and 70s...you'll see worse ok!! But we had beers;)

Rebounding in the games GU has LOST:

Total Rebounds--

Opponents: 163
GU: 164

Rebounding in the last 3 games GU has LOST

Total Rebounds--

Opponents: 83
GU: 106

GU outrebounded Illinois by 13, WSU by 11 and ND had one more board than the Zags.

HillBillyZag
12-16-2010, 04:13 PM
At the risk of being turned over to the inquistion ?, Few has'nt done the best job of coaching this year , either ? When you can't get your players to follow your directions , chaos results , and with the exception of the last five minutes against Notre Dame ?, thats about whats we've had ,CHAOS ?

SunDevilGolfZag
12-16-2010, 05:44 PM
As I recall, we weren't very good for the first part of the year in the Elite 8 season. The team gelled. Keep the faith

allnet59
12-16-2010, 06:00 PM
yep your right were close just we need a point guard who can deliver the ball and score off the dribble, quit turning the ball over at a clip of more then one every two minutes during a game. and play defense like teams of old. someone please step up.

MDABE80
12-17-2010, 12:07 AM
Rebounding in the games GU has LOST:

Total Rebounds--

Opponents: 163
GU: 164

Rebounding in the last 3 games GU has LOST

Total Rebounds--

Opponents: 83
GU: 106

GU outrebounded Illinois by 13, WSU by 11 and ND had one more board than the Zags.


Not so fast.My Mistake Angelo! I guess it really doen't matter if we win the board by 1 or 50 if we let the other team score so much.
WSU..sure we won the boards....wonderful! ..BUT we gave them the ball via turnovers 25 times.

Or with Kansas St...41-29 lost on the boards.

Or San Diego St......39-29 lost the boards.

or Notre Dame.......28-27 lost the boards but they put up 24 FT points while we had 10. Worst reffing job in a long time. We should have won.


And then comes the doozy with Illinois......no defense of 3's beat by 27 pts on 3's alone. Point being is that we didn't play much defense....like any at times.
Rebounding, we don't do well...as stated. We don't do defense well either.

Rebounding is good for 1 thing..to give it to your team's offense. We're very innovative....we give it back to the OTHER team far too often OR...we let them sink 3's unmolested. So I guess you're partly correct. It's not just the rebounding...it's everything on defense. It, in some ways, is worse than I thought. But no...we're a rebounding mess. It's just a matter of what we do the worst in any given game.

Abe

matty1090
12-17-2010, 06:25 AM
huh.....actually yea we are that far away, very far away in fact, from being a good team. Gloss over those statistics one more time and you'll see we are not even close from being considered a good team. hear that? that was me expressing yet another a sigh of frustration against the fans in total denial. Dont worry, it happens every year.

zagfaninmt
12-17-2010, 06:55 AM
huh.....actually yea we are that far away, very far away in fact, from being a good team. Gloss over those statistics one more time and you'll see we are not even close from being considered a good team. hear that? that was me expressing yet another a sigh of frustration against the fans in total denial. Dont worry, it happens every year.

Begging the question, why would a person of your discernment keep coming back?

JPtheBeasta
12-17-2010, 07:32 AM
huh.....actually yea we are that far away, very far away in fact, from being a good team. Gloss over those statistics one more time and you'll see we are not even close from being considered a good team. hear that? that was me expressing yet another a sigh of frustration against the fans in total denial. Dont worry, it happens every year.

There is a certain amount of irritionality implicit in the word "fan." It is actually explicit in the word "fanatic" which it is short for. People here seem to be pretty level-headed, for the most part. Maybe someone should start a board for those that watch the Zags to see them fail, or whatever the reason they are fans of this team. For some it doesn't matter if their glass is half empty or half full- because the contents are diarrhea.

matty1090
12-17-2010, 11:08 AM
[QUOTE=JPtheBeasta;615471]There is a certain amount of irritionality implicit in the word "fan." It is actually explicit in the word "fanatic" which it is short for. People here seem to be pretty level-headed, for the most part. Maybe someone should start a board for those that watch the Zags to see them fail, or whatever the reason they are fans of this team. For some it doesn't matter if their glass is half empty or half full- because the contents are diarrhea.[/QUOTE

I'm not sure if my rational outlook on the team is causing you to question my loyalty to the program. I mean I guess that's fair, I've only been a solid contributor to the Zag message board system since it started in 2001 when it was Zagshoops.com. I think it would do some of the fans on here a lot of good to be a little more critical when its needed and not always think everything is roses and sunshine when its clearly not. But like I said, what do I know.

ZagKing09
12-17-2010, 11:16 AM
As I recall, we weren't very good for the first part of the year in the Elite 8 season. The team gelled. Keep the faith


There is a certain amount of irritionality implicit in the word "fan." It is actually explicit in the word "fanatic" which it is short for. People here seem to be pretty level-headed, for the most part. Maybe someone should start a board for those that watch the Zags to see them fail, or whatever the reason they are fans of this team. For some it doesn't matter if their glass is half empty or half full- because the contents are diarrhea.

+1 to you both. *especially SunDevil, I think we are forgetting that this is just the beginning and with this many new players / guys who were away during the summer (or coming back from injuries) there will always be kinks to be worked out.

cjm720
12-17-2010, 12:01 PM
One thing we can all agree on:

We'd rather peak at the end of the season than early in the season.

Zag4Hire
12-17-2010, 12:30 PM
Using KenPom so take it for what it is worth

2006 TO% 17.5 (One of the best in the nation)
2007 TO% 18.6
2008 TO% 20.6
2009 TO% 16.1 (Top 10)
2010 TO% 18.7
2011 TO% 22.0 (Yikes!)

It may not look like much of a difference at first glance but it is definitely worse. Obviously the sample size and teams included are different but it is noticeable GU is not protecting the rock in a satisfactory way. This seems to be contributing to the other stats mentioned. For example the games vs ND & Illinois, a ton of 3 balls were jacked up in transition after a turnover. It's true in the half-court set they haven't been doing as well but I think this points to the insanely high amount of 3PT attempts and 3 PT made. Turnovers also affect setting up a zone. It is difficult to set up a zone when you are in transition and is often deadly as it can lead to wide-open shots. It also can stem from the lack of a true PG. Gray is handling the ball too much for him to set up a shot and the offensive motion shouldn't be generated by him but should capitalized by him shooting a 3 pt jumper or taking it to the hoop.

JPtheBeasta
12-18-2010, 10:10 AM
I'm not sure if my rational outlook on the team is causing you to question my loyalty to the program. I mean I guess that's fair, I've only been a solid contributor to the Zag message board system since it started in 2001 when it was Zagshoops.com. I think it would do some of the fans on here a lot of good to be a little more critical when its needed and not always think everything is roses and sunshine when its clearly not. But like I said, what do I know.

Hey, only you know where your head's at on this, and I won't pretend to. Mine was a reaction to all of the negativity that is building on this board, and as a I read the many- and not just your- "rational" comments it is like rubbing salt in a wound during this very frustrating pre-season. If things were going well the connotations to the critical statements would be much different and easier to read day-in and day-out. To use another analogy, it's like the Israelites being rescued from slavery in Egypt and complaining in the desert when things got tough- they forgot where they came from and lost site of where they were going and started focusing on all the bad in the present. I suppose this all gets to my basic nature that is much more Polyanna-ish than some here, and I definitely don't want to start a flame war with a Zagland compatriot, but your first statement felt like a shot across the bow of the ship and I was compelled to fire a shot back.