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View Full Version : Mark Few needs to figure his team out



HillBillyZag
12-04-2010, 04:32 PM
We cannot defend the three point shot and we do not have a legitimate point guard who can direct this team . #1. But I would like to know why we could'nt use K.O. in the manner that they use Tisdale ? #2. Why is there no cohesion on this squad ? I saw six teams in three games today , five of them played in unison and the sixth , Zags was 'jjust out of sync ? I really note little or no improvment in this team since the first exhibition ?

U Zig, I Zag
12-04-2010, 04:33 PM
Again.... disgusting (but good for the other guys) effort on covering the shooters.

What is it?

I chalk it up two things:

1. Few not sticking with the zone when it works. If we don't have the horses on O then it's OK to slow it down and save the energy of the kids. Just teach them how to cover.

2. On man, we double team. 'Everyone does it to us!', you say. But everyone seems (at varying degrees) better at passing the ball. We have terrible handlers/passers a lot of the time. I watched repeatedly as we left a guy to dbl the corner or whatever. Now, maybe the guy Gray left to help MM with in the corner is not the guy that shoots the 3, but its the guy that starts the pass around the horn or makes the skip pass to the shooter.

On man, stick with your guy no matter what. Elbow, yank jersey and be a punk until the ref's call you on it.

Switch OVER the screen and stick with your man. We are not getting burned by guys doing 3 moves down low and laying it in. We are getting burned deep... all day long.

jazzdelmar
12-04-2010, 04:33 PM
amen, billy...actually they are going backwards. no chemistry, no development. 18-12.

U Zig, I Zag
12-04-2010, 04:37 PM
We sort of play like UK or even UNC, a team with kick @ass athletes that can make it happen: except nobody can make it happen.

This team needs to go back 9 years. We are slower, less athletic and we need to play smarter. Kick outs for 3. Backdoor cuts. Easy baskets.

On D... I started a different post for ideas there.

ZagLawGrad
12-04-2010, 04:37 PM
This team is a mess. Plain and simple.

Gonna be an uphill climb, probably a rebuilding year that hopefully won't take the whole season to get into a semblance of a team with some chemistry.

I gotta wonder about the Carter kid. Looks lost, no confidence, afraid to have the ball. Even as scary as Stocton is with the ball, he looks better than Carter.

Ezag
12-04-2010, 04:38 PM
Yikes! Now I think the Sky is Falling....December is going to be a rough month!

DCZag
12-04-2010, 04:41 PM
can't defend the three - that's for sure, and no offensive rhythm.

Tho' I'd say 18-12 is a tad on the pessemistic side. We've lost to 3 top 20 teams, up until they played K State, WSU had played the 345th (that would be dead last in D1 according to Kenpom) sched in the land. So I'm not ready to write the guys off just yet. But we have to find some cohesion. The Wazzu game coming up is now that much more important....buckle up, it may be a little bumpy on this board the next few days....

gamagin
12-04-2010, 04:42 PM
clinical depression:

and don't forget, in the end, we're all going to die.

Ill, with five very experienced and excellent returning starters, had to go to the trey and shoot & make MORE of them than ever before (if the announcers had that right) because they were losing inside.

And they did and it worked. Hardly a recipe for abject failure.

Definitely a sign we were overrated from the summer forward. But many, many signs that we're learning and growing in the process of challenging the very best. EH and RS for example. excellent games.

HOOTER
12-04-2010, 04:43 PM
This team is a mess. Plain and simple.


Yup. I'm struggling to think of the last Zags team that was this bad. Oh, they look stellar against lesser competition, but they completely fall apart against decent teams, and there's plenty of decent teams remaining on the schedule. If you are one of those in the "the sky is not falling" camp, you may want to rethink your position, or just continue to make stupid excuses and pretend all is well.

MDABE80
12-04-2010, 04:44 PM
Team is STILL being figured out. We've lost a step to be sure...but at least the team is honed. We're not that bad. Bad in a loss to good team...

We need a PG improvement. Meech is just too average to elevate this team. Love the kid but I don't think he's the guy we need. David is too inexperienced to do much but fill in. He'll be better but he does have present shortcomings. Carter is slow to the PG position at GU. We're going to have a very difficult year..losses=8 or 9.
I'm not complaining guys...it's just not there right now. HOPE is a good thing.

CaliforniaZaggin'
12-04-2010, 04:46 PM
I don't think it was poor effort that killed them, but rather a poor game plan, as you allude to. When you have the advantage in the post and on the glass, you can't let the three-ball beat you. Force them to play inside as well, and then you have the advantage. Instead, we gave them room on the perimeter, even inviting certain players to take (and subsequently make) the long ball. The frustrating part is that I don't believe Illinois is a better team. I think we win that game most days.

Ezag
12-04-2010, 04:46 PM
Team is STILL being figured out. We've lost a step to be sure...but at least the team is honed. We're not that bad. Bad in a loss to good team...

We need a PG improvement. Meech is just too average to elevate this team. Love the kid but I don't think he's the guy we need. David is too inexperienced to do much but fill in. He'll be better but he does have present shortcomings. Carter is slow to the PG position at GU. We're going to have a very difficult year..losses=8 or 9.
I'm not complaining guys...it's just not there right now. HOPE is a good thing.

We could be up to 8 or 9 loses by the end of this month!

ZagLawGrad
12-04-2010, 04:46 PM
I'm struggling to think of the last Zags team that was this bad. Oh, they look stellar against lesser competition, but they completely fall apart against decent teams, and there's plenty of decent teams on the schedule. If you were one of those in the "the sky is not falling" camp, you may want to rethink your position.

Yes, lot's of denial amongst some fans on the Board right now. Early, but not very promising, this Zags team so far. It's pretty obvious.

Reborn
12-04-2010, 04:47 PM
Intensity, heart, guarding the 3 as if we have been coached. A high school team can close out better than the Zags. No intensity on the close outs. The 3 point shot once again buries the Zags. Why is this such a common theme? I mean for yearssssssssssss? Coaching.

Ezag
12-04-2010, 04:47 PM
hmmm.... we lost today to perimeter team and surrendered to the 3, we lost to SDSU and KState on the inside, so looks like we can't win against either type of elite team

ZagMania
12-04-2010, 04:48 PM
IMO opinion Few's move to switch every screen came way too late and possibly could have been a very different game if he did it 5-10 minutes earlier.

There was also a striking difference in that they also had no hesitation to catch and shoot when they had space. Too many times Arop and others caught with space but chose to try to use the defenders momentum closing out against them. It is not a bad idea, but often they just dribble towards a teammate and the defense recovers. When you get the defense scrambling you either got to shoot it or move the ball in a way that makes them pay.

ZagLawGrad
12-04-2010, 04:48 PM
Lobby NCAA for elimination of 3 Pt shot

GU69
12-04-2010, 04:50 PM
This may work better than anything else we're doing:


Lobby NCAA for elimination of 3 Pt shot

Chicken Ball
12-04-2010, 04:56 PM
Ill, with five very experienced and excellent returning starters, had to go to the trey and shoot & make MORE of them than ever before (if the announcers had that right) because they were losing inside.

And they did and it worked. Hardly a recipe for abject failure.

They did it because we didn't guard it. They were shooting the three because GU didn't deem it necessary to guard the three. You can hardly lay the blame on Illinois' career shooting night when your team gave them 7 feet of space to make 3/4 of their perimeter shots. St. Al's would have had a career shooting night from three against us tonight.

The same lack of defensive rotation that SDSU exploited on the interior, K=State and Illinois exploited on the perimeter. We're just a dreadful defensive team right now.

Oh, by the way, can we put a moratorium on Sacre and Olynyk trying to feed the post from the top of the key? It's a TO half the time. Also, I'm becoming more comfortable with Meech initiating the offense than Gray. He tries to be too clever by half with his passing. Meech has finally settled down and is making the solid but unspectacular passes.

Birddog
12-04-2010, 04:57 PM
When you get the defense scrambling you either got to shoot it or move the ball in a way that makes them pay
BINGO
way too many decents looks passed up esp. by Meech and Arop.

Birddog
12-04-2010, 05:02 PM
Meech has finally settled down and is making the solid but unspectacular passes.


Meech is playing solid. If he would just attempt (and make a few) mid range jumpers, we'd be singing his praises. He passes up a lot of open looks.

CDC84
12-04-2010, 05:04 PM
People need to keep in mind that Xavier, Oklahoma State and Wake Forest are not in the same league this year as SDSU, KSU and Illinois. They aren't close to being top 25 teams. To write those games off as losses - especially with two of the the three in the Kennel - is a bit much.

Next week's road trip is going to be brutal though. I would be very happy to get 1 of 2.

Saxon_zag
12-04-2010, 05:07 PM
Even as scary as Stocton is with the ball, he looks better than Carter.

Not too sure you could go that far with it. Marquise clearly has a short leash from few but he at least belongs playing d-1 basketball. He didn't make the team because of his last name.

gamagin
12-04-2010, 05:10 PM
Meech is playing solid. If he would just attempt (and make a few) mid range jumpers, we'd be singing his praises. He passes up a lot of open looks.

I would add STOP leaving your feet when attempting to pass or make something happen. Gravity becomes the sixth man . . .

Saxon_zag
12-04-2010, 05:13 PM
THe rotation is just brutal. Give dower more time, don't let him hit a jumper then have him immediately sit down, wtf is that? Is stockton really seeing minutes at the point in the first half? He was brutal.

zagitup
12-04-2010, 05:16 PM
The opposing coaches' scouting report on the 2010-2011 Gonzaga Bulldogs is now complete:

Defensively-

1) Task your most tenacious defender with the responsibility of guarding Steven Gray. DO NOT let him beat you.

2) Require all your players on the floor to play high-energy, swarming defense. Guard the ball closely, denying the pass and concentrate on intimidation. Don't be as concerned about rotation, because Gonzaga does not pass quickly and sharply around the perimeter, nor are they high-percentage 3-point shooters when guarded closely.

Offensively-

1) Move the ball quickly around the court in the half-court game, taking advantage of Gonzaga's poor rotation to open up 3-point opportunities.

2) Stay alert for the many times Gonzaga misses defensive switches which will open up high-percentage shots on the baseline and in the paint.


The question becomes, how do the Zags adjust/evolve to make this kind of scouting report obsolete?

GoZags
12-04-2010, 05:25 PM
Sam made a very unZaglike gesture after hitting his jumper and was sat down immediately for it. He's got to learn that Zags don't flash signals after big plays.

Other than Nathan Doudney's cheap shot against an Illini player at the Wooden in Indianapolis -- this was the most embarrased I've been as a Zag fan for the actions of one of our guys.

NEC26
12-04-2010, 05:26 PM
He made a dead eye shooter signal with his hand . Hardly a big deal.

ZagLawGrad
12-04-2010, 05:30 PM
Few has a major problem---he has only Carter or Stockton to give Meech a rest. Carter is tenuous, passive, has no confidence, and actually looks scared when he gets the ball---shocking to see how far behind he is after all the JC hype. Stockton?---not much to say on that one except he's no answer.

Big problems after Meech in the PG department. It will be interesting to see what Few does about it.

GoZags
12-04-2010, 05:33 PM
He made a dead eye shooter signal with his hand . Hardly a big deal.

So maybe there was another reason he was sitting after that. I could be mistaken, but I think all 5 of his minutes came in the first half.

I have no problem with Few sitting him.

ZagDaddy
12-04-2010, 05:39 PM
More than a new defensive scheme (which I do believe needs to be addressed) defense needs to become A PRIORITY. Defense is not now nor never has been a priority for a Few coached team. His game plan has never, ever, ever been to stop an opponent from scoring. It has been to score more than than the opponent. And he recruits to match his philosophy.

When was the last time you ever saw him pull somebody for a boneheaded defensive play? When was the last time you heard him say, "Player X is going to keep his behind on the bench next to me until he decides he is going to play some defense? The reason that doesn't happen is that it is not a priority.

Looking at them on almost any defensive sequence and it is readily apparent defense is not a priority. They lack fundamentals. Compare, for example today, Butler's players in a defensive stance versus GU. There is no comparison. GU players by and large barely get into a defensive stance. Too often they barely have their knees bent, their hands are at their sides and they sag off their assignments. They do this regularly.

A defensive minded coach would NEVER allow this from any player. Few is not a defensive minded coach and so this is tolerated.

You can't argue with Few's success. It has worked well for him. He's piled up a lot of W's (Although, when I'm honest with myself I think his overall record is "wind aided" from playing in a historically weak conference, but that's beside the point.) The point is you can win a lot of games with his philosophy. And Few does.

Where it becomes more difficult is getting big wins against solid teams. This is why we too often look completely out matched against good teams like we did today.

In my opinion, what you see is what you're going to get. Offense and not defense is going to stay his mantra. And the Zags will continue to win a lot of games. Where that becomes frustrating as a fan is that Defense Wins Championships.

Get used to it. Just don't expect a consistent deep runs in March with that philosophy.

CB4
12-04-2010, 05:41 PM
Sam made a very unZaglike gesture after hitting his jumper and was sat down immediately for it. He's got to learn that Zags don't flash signals after big plays.

Other than Nathan Doudney's cheap shot against an Illini player at the Wooden in Indianapolis -- this was the most embarrased I've been as a Zag fan for the actions of one of our guys.

Heytvelt made gestures after every three that he hit, what's the difference? I don't think that has anything to do with why Dower was removed from the game.

CDC84
12-04-2010, 05:41 PM
Felt the Zags needed to zone earlier in the game.

Mantua
12-04-2010, 05:41 PM
I was a little disappointed with the coaching today and the coaches made no inappropriate hand gestures.

RenoZag
12-04-2010, 05:43 PM
hmmm.... we lost today to perimeter team and surrendered to the 3, we lost to SDSU and KState on the inside, so looks like we can't win against either type of elite team

No argument here.

Birddog
12-04-2010, 05:44 PM
Big problems after Meech in the PG department. It will be interesting to see what Few does about it.
Whaddaya mean by that? You saw what he can do. He obviously has more confidence in Stockton than Carter. Stockton got abused , so he brought in Carter, who was so-so while doing an impersonination of a deer at night on a highway. You said it, he doesn't have any other options that I see.

krozman
12-04-2010, 05:44 PM
I was a little disappointed with the coaching today and the coaches made no inappropriate hand gestures.

The only inappropriate gesture i saw was the scoreboard.

Mantua
12-04-2010, 05:44 PM
We had moments of good D. I think we had some coaching problems today.

madness
12-04-2010, 05:47 PM
His teams have never defended the three well. Period.
The ball is in his court.

With Daye and Downs we defended the 3 quite well. (It's easy with length on the wings). I believe that's what Few hopes he will have with Harris/Hoff/AROP on the wings. It just might take some time.

As much as I hate watching this team lose, the coaching staff is hating it more, believe me.

As much as I love Gray's defense, I already see him breaking down with Few's no rest policy for the alpha dog. Gray needs to sit in big games twice a game...It's so rare to have an alpha dog play 40 minutes for 30 games, but Few always does it and it irks me.

CaliforniaZaggin'
12-04-2010, 05:49 PM
THe rotation is just brutal. Give dower more time, don't let him hit a jumper then have him immediately sit down, wtf is that? Is stockton really seeing minutes at the point in the first half? He was brutal.

I'm not sure why Kelly is getting more minutes than Sam. Kelly had some boards tonight, but his overall production stinks. The scouting report is out on David Stockon: pressure him as soon as he crosses halfcourt and he'll frequently turn it over. Play Sam. Play Marquise and/or Keita. Sit Kelly. Sit David.

RenoZag
12-04-2010, 05:49 PM
We sort of play like UK or even UNC, a team with kick @ass athletes that can make it happen: except nobody can make it happen.



1) UK or UNC can shoot the ball;
2) There are no kick @ss athletes on Gonzaga's squad.

CaliforniaZaggin'
12-04-2010, 05:53 PM
Sam made a very unZaglike gesture after hitting his jumper and was sat down immediately for it. He's got to learn that Zags don't flash signals after big plays.

Other than Nathan Doudney's cheap shot against an Illini player at the Wooden in Indianapolis -- this was the most embarrased I've been as a Zag fan for the actions of one of our guys.

Whoa, seriously?? Austin made some gestures that were at least as bad, and I remember hearing Ammo making some comments that I don't dare repeat in a public forum.

EDIT TO ADD: I thought Sam's gesture was silly, as I do for any such gesture, but I didn't think it was that bad. Unfortunately, it's rather par for the course nowadays in CBB.

Saxon_zag
12-04-2010, 06:10 PM
Sam made a very unZaglike gesture after hitting his jumper and was sat down immediately for it. He's got to learn that Zags don't flash signals after big plays.

Other than Nathan Doudney's cheap shot against an Illini player at the Wooden in Indianapolis -- this was the most embarrased I've been as a Zag fan for the actions of one of our guys.

What in the hell? You were actually offended by someone holding up 3 fingers after hitting a 3 (he thought). Let me guess you are offended when people wish you happy holidays as well? Give me a break, if that's the reason he was sat then Few has some serious problems.

Martin Centre Mad Man
12-04-2010, 06:13 PM
Whoa, seriously?? Austin made some gestures that were at least as bad, and I remember hearing Ammo making some comments that I don't dare repeat in a public forum.

EDIT TO ADD: I thought Sam's gesture was silly, as I do for any such gesture, but I didn't think it was that bad. Unfortunately, it's rather par for the course nowadays in CBB.

My guess is that Dower was glued to the bench because he is a backup center and the starter was the team's best player on the floor.

GoZags
12-04-2010, 06:17 PM
What in the hell? You were actually offended by someone holding up 3 fingers after hitting a 3 (he thought). Let me guess you are offended when people wish you happy holidays as well? Give me a break, if that's the reason he was sat then Few has some serious problems.

I didn't say I was offended. I said I was embarrased. Did that have anything to do with Few benching him? I have no idea.

MickMick
12-04-2010, 06:22 PM
Zags are missing Rice much more than I thought they would.

The youngins are typically coached up by now, and the "in game adjustments" are suffering for it. There really isn't much more they can do than what we saw today.

Adjustments simply expose weaker areas.

Mantua
12-04-2010, 06:40 PM
Zags are missing Rice much more than I thought they would.

The youngins are typically coached up by now, and the "in game adjustments" are suffering for it. There really isn't much more they can do than what we saw today.

Adjustments simply expose weaker areas.

I have noticed that the new and younger players aren't up to speed. This is a very young team with only one, albeit great, senior at the top. SG appears to be trying very hard to lead them, but the coaching needs to be there. I truly want his senior year to end well. There is so much on Gray's shoulders.

cjm720
12-04-2010, 06:53 PM
This sums it up quite well, gd post.


The opposing coaches' scouting report on the 2010-2011 Gonzaga Bulldogs is now complete:

Defensively-

1) Task your most tenacious defender with the responsibility of guarding Steven Gray. DO NOT let him beat you.

2) Require all your players on the floor to play high-energy, swarming defense. Guard the ball closely, denying the pass and concentrate on intimidation. Don't be as concerned about rotation, because Gonzaga does not pass quickly and sharply around the perimeter, nor are they high-percentage 3-point shooters when guarded closely.

Offensively-

1) Move the ball quickly around the court in the half-court game, taking advantage of Gonzaga's poor rotation to open up 3-point opportunities.

2) Stay alert for the many times Gonzaga misses defensive switches which will open up high-percentage shots on the baseline and in the paint.


The question becomes, how do the Zags adjust/evolve to make this kind of scouting report obsolete?

jim77
12-04-2010, 06:56 PM
Offense....This more than the defense cost us the game. I have NEVER seen this many players pick up their dribble on a d-1 team. Sacre still needs to quit putting the ball on the floor. We have zilch for continuity on offense, why? Because the other teams have figured out if they pressure the point he'll pick up his dribble and become a sitting duck...between that and d'ing up SG pretty well ended the offensive threat...with the exceptin of EH who clearly is not in game shape ...yet. We actually played pretty well in the first half...I also saw a bunch of little stuff that drove me nuts....like players fighting with each other for rebounds....like fouls for reaching when the other guy clearly has position...dumb fouls. I saw 1 back door all night...and the rest was "create you're own shot " night....not much teamwork going on out there....The biggest problem on offense is the fact that we can't even get the play started. Its so bad that I just as soon see 5 guys within 15 feet of the PG if thats what it takes...I do think our whole offense needs to set up farther from the basket to help the situation.

Defense: Tonight you saw what happens when MEECH sits...our D suffers....I thought Meech committed some silly fouls BUT, I thought he put out more than any other player. Kudos to Meech for playing hard. They scored most of their 3's when Meech was out.....due to lack of pressure on the point. When teams can start their offensive plays cleaner the better the results...and Kudos to the Illini for making the 3 shots. On a good note..we were getting the better of them on the inside, therefore they went outside. Our defenders need to quit playing the ball and start staying with their assigned man....then again I think this team probably needs to employ the zone more....cause thats the only way they can compete against the elites.

Conclusion...I still think our defense is adequate....its our offensive continuity that needs some work....I'm still VERY opptimistic about this team and think some patience is in order...we'll get better. GO ZAGS.

Pargo the Destroyer
12-04-2010, 07:29 PM
If this team is really going to be a good team (getting fat on cupcake teams doesn't count) someone is going to have to start being accountable for what they do. Players need to be accountable for their play and the coaches need to hold their players accountable for their actions. I'm not sure it's going to
happen. Losing the next 2 games is very possible.

EngineerZag
12-04-2010, 07:43 PM
Here's something I don't understand. Why is it that often when a guy starts getting into an offensive rhythm (happened with both Dower & Harris tonight), Few pulls them? It may be their turn to come out or what have you but on a night when your team is struggling wouldn't you leave them in a little extra time and feed the hot hand?

Let's face it, guys - the team just doesn't "have it" so far this year. Not saying things can't change, but they don't look good at the moment. Poor to mediocre guard play and a lack of floor leadership are killing them.

CDC84
12-04-2010, 08:16 PM
Here's something I don't understand. Why is it that often when a guy starts getting into an offensive rhythm (happened with both Dower & Harris tonight), Few pulls them? It may be their turn to come out or what have you but on a night when your team is struggling wouldn't you leave them in a little extra time and feed the hot hand?

1) Dower = disciplinary measure. Coaches were not happy with the inane hand gesture he made after sinking that 3 point shot. That'll earn you a spot on the bench everytime. RayG lit him into Sam on the bench.

2) Harris = he has to be taken out frequently because he isn't in good enough shape to play for long stretches of time. He gets gassed easily - the consequence of not practicing. Few actually wanted to rest him more than he did today, but they couldn't because of all the foul problems. Hence, the reason he was less effective as the game wore on. Few said in the post game interviews that Harris has only practiced in 10% of the practices the team has held since mid-October.

BroncoZAG615
12-04-2010, 08:25 PM
Can someone explain this obscene gesture Sam made? I saw a kid...a kid...flashing three fingers after hitting what he thought was a three.

Unfortunately this team is starting to resemble the Colorado football teams I've been suffering with. Come out flat, no ones having fun, and they play not to lose rather than to win.

You'd have to be blind to not see a disconnect between staff and players.

CB4
12-04-2010, 08:27 PM
Can someone explain this obscene gesture Sam made? I saw a kid...a kid...flashing three fingers after hitting what he thought was a three.

+1

Reborn
12-04-2010, 08:29 PM
Mark Few needs to get tough. To leave Steven in when he was playing horrible was a HUGE mistake. Few has lost his vision, and I think needs to do some soul searching... I wonder if his heart is in it because it appears to me that the players cared less about the name on that jersey today.....

ZagNative
12-04-2010, 08:34 PM
Honest to god! Pulling a kid after that innocuous gesture, after he hits a three-pointer (or so he thought)? Ridiculous. It's not as if Sam were some kind of jerk big ego. He's a great, modest kid.

I've wondered the same thing MickMick mentioned, whether Leon Rice leaving cost us more than we could have known ... Was Leon Gonzaga's Good Cop, leaving us with only .... a guy who pulls a kid after a celebratory gesture for some much-needed points?

CB4
12-04-2010, 08:36 PM
http://statsheet.com/images/articles/2009/3/200903192116765723535-p2.jpeg

MickMick
12-04-2010, 08:46 PM
Honest to god! Pulling a kid after that innocuous gesture, after he hits a three-pointer? Ridiculous. It's not as if Sam were some kind of jerk big ego. He's a great, modest kid.

I've wondered the same thing MickMick mentioned, whether Leon Rice leaving cost us more than we could have known ... Was Leon Gonzaga's Good Cop, leaving us with only .... a guy who pulls a kid after a celebratory gesture for some much-needed points?

ZN, people are asumming too much. No one here really knows why Sam was pulled. I agree with the earlier post that Few wanted to get Rob back in the game and Sam's "gesture" in of itself wasn't enough to pull Sam, but likely more of a catalyst to do a little sooner what was planned on anyway. Few may have seen something on the defensive end he didn't like as well.

IowaZag
12-04-2010, 09:06 PM
Dower was going to be pulled anyway - Sacre and Harris were already at the scorer's table before Sam took his shot.

U Zig, I Zag
12-04-2010, 09:14 PM
1) UK or UNC can shoot the ball;
2) There are no kick @ss athletes on Gonzaga's squad.

I meant that we are pretending we are a UK/UNC. But we CAN'T out-athlete them anyone, nor out shoot them.

ZagNative
12-04-2010, 09:15 PM
ZN, people are asumming too much. No one here really knows why Sam was pulled. I agree with the earlier post that Few wanted to get Rob back in the game and Sam's "gesture" in of itself wasn't enough to pull Sam, but likely more of a catalyst to do a little sooner what was planned on anyway. Few may have seen something on the defensive end he didn't like as well.I hate it when I get mad and run my mouth before I know all the facts. But, you know, for a minute there, the righteous indignation feels so good!

ZagMania
12-04-2010, 09:17 PM
I think it bears repeating how much better the defense was when we started switching every screen. The way the Illinois offense ran with Tisdale picking and popping reminded me a lot of the advantages we had when bigs like Heytvelt and Daye would do the same thing. When our bigs hedged on screens to help, it left Tisdale wide open, and if someone came over to help our defense was sent scrambling and it was easy for them to find the wide open shooter.

If we had been switching screens more often I think it cuts down the wide open looks in half. Whenever their guards got isolated on one of our bigs like Sacre or Olynyk they failed to get by them (Sacre moves his feet extremely well for a 7 footer and Olynyk's length helps) and they didn't have much an inside presence to make us pay for any of the switches.

U Zig, I Zag
12-04-2010, 09:39 PM
Meech is playing well. Unlike last year, I am way more comfortable with him in the game and controlling the dribble. Stockton is good when the competition is weak and he can see through his defenders and make his passes. He has a purpose, just not against someone like this.

Gray is way too flaky on the passing. He needs to be the senior leader but he, and the team, is best served by setting Steven up. Run, Steven, Run. Watch tapes of Adam and Steph Curry. This will get you the shots AND wear your defender down which makes him less of a threat on the offensive side. We need plays specifically for Steven.

First things first, fix that closing out on the 3. For crying out loud, my voice was gone on the 2nd tidsdale three. Be it a box and 1 and chase the hot guy, letting the inside become one on one (my suggestion. just bag the help/dbl team, we aren't quick enough), or play different sets of payers. Whatever it takes.

2nd, if we are going to be 'offensive minded' then play guys with handles/passing ability. Meech is fine with the ball coming up, but then move him out of the way - kid is tough. He can go back door, jumps quicker than our bigs, takes screens like a man and he can probably set them like a man. Play MM and Steven for pick and pops, make the duo stronger than Gray by himself. They fear Steven shooting 6 3s and they smother him. Greenlight MM if he has daylight. Make them pay for over playing Steven.

Don't wait to start the offense when everyone is set, instead start the offense as soon as Meech turns the corner on his guy and plan to bring 2 people in to bail him out if he can't go all the way. Meech would be deadly if he can go full speed to dead stop and keep his dribble at the FT line and either pop that shot (or just lob it with the bigs crashing) or kick it to someone going baseline or in the corner.

Play Keita. Carter looks scared and KO is intimidated or hurt or just doesn't have 'it'. Stockton is a liablity against high-level opponents. Keita, the first few times he played went right off the bounce. He went inside and tried to make something. He was pissed when he would get pulled. We need more pissed off players.

Tell Manny to just shoot. He doesn't believe or is being told not too shoot... long inbound pass from our endline. Fluster cluck waiting to happen, but we survive. Manny has the ball and his guy beat. He kind of studder step dribbles 2,3 times gets inside the 3 and then stops and panics. Instead, dribble right to the 3-line, stop and hit it. We were boarding good today, hit or miss Manny can back pedal to stop a cherry pick or leave his hand draped after a 3 as he backpedals past the defender that got beat: swagger, we need more.

U Zig, I Zag
12-04-2010, 09:44 PM
What's the difference? From my seat it looked like Sam was running down the floor looking through a handmade peephole with his fingers in the air. Completely different from the photo.

I may be wrong but I believe Sam hit the shot, turned around and put his last three fingers up, aka 'three' and brought his thumb/index finger to his mouth and kissed it. He was first back, it wasn't 'at anyone' it was just him celebrating.

Unless there is some streetball sign of disrespect that I don't know about, I think it was completely fine. He looked confident.

gamagin
12-04-2010, 09:50 PM
the GUB.

He's pretty much been saying the same thing week after week, in so many ways: the Zags are not ready.

EH hasn't practiced much all season due to his injuries, old and new. He needs to heal AND play more.

Meech needs to take charge at the point. He's improving, but there's room for more . . .

RS & KO need to guard underneath like junk yard dogs, board and put back and score, too, consisently.

They're growing into the task but apparently not enough to deliver a victory at this juncture, especially if the competition is much more highly rated like Saturday's. But they are progressing.

SG needs to lead, too. Right now. Shoot and lead. Lead and shoot. He has looked great at times. His confidence and place seemed about the most reliable attribute we had. Until the Illinois game . . .

So here we all are and there we all go.

Back to work.

Our problem is we have it all figured out. But our team hasn't lived up to our expectations or our timeline.

Maybe we need to get back to practice, too.

We need to practice our patience and get back to the reality that whatever we thought and expected this team to be almost immediately upon lacing up was, in fact, mostly the product of our imaginations, hopes and dreams.

Just like coach Few has tried to tell us.

fedwayzag
12-04-2010, 09:51 PM
I agree Steven needs some rest. For his legs and sometimes to watch the game from the bench to get a better feel. I have always felt if a player is struggling a some, get him over to the bench and tell him to watch the game and you will be right back in. I said to myself when there was a dead ball in the first half at 8:12 mark, take steven out for a rest and use the tv timeout to give him some more time. Obviously he was not taken out and committed his second foul at the 7:33 mark. I think Few should tell Steven he is coming out between the 12 minute and 8 minute tv time out. I really think it would be wonders for Steven's game.

FuManShoes
12-04-2010, 10:05 PM
What's the difference? From my seat it looked like Sam was running down the floor looking through a handmade peephole with his fingers in the air. Completely different from the photo.

"Completely different"? How so? In both cases the player took time after a play to make a gesture celebrating it. In neither case does the kid throw it in the opponent's face and others have said, it's unlikely this was even the reason Sam got pulled. The sanctimonious reverence for the "right way" to play the game really is something else.

810Suited
12-04-2010, 10:17 PM
I guess that Matt Bouldin guy was pretty important. Should be a very interesting season to watch unfold. Everyone should be reminded that we as Gonzaga fans are VERY spoiled and that teams have down/off years. These days expectations are to make the elite eight or further, an incredible jump from not too long ago.

HOOTER
12-04-2010, 10:24 PM
Sam made a very unZaglike gesture after hitting his jumper and was sat down immediately for it. He's got to learn that Zags don't flash signals after big plays.


Lord I hope you're wrong about this. If Few sat him for making that gesture then my level of respect for Few just dropped a few notches. Take a guy that gets excited about draining a three and sit him on his @ss for it? Brilliant coaching there. :rolleyes:

roxdoc
12-04-2010, 10:29 PM
I've been thinking along the lines of MickMick: the loss of Rice and maybe even Grier ahead of him has created a problem. They may have been doing more heavy lifting then we knew. I see it as a problem with preping the young players and particularly in motivating them. We talk a lot about this or that player should shoot more or that they look intimidated or without conficence. This has been a problem for awhile ie Pmac, Kong, etc., seems to be more so now. Did we loose our "good cops"?

GoZags
12-04-2010, 10:38 PM
Lord I hope you're wrong about this. If Few sat him for making that gesture then my level of respect for Few just dropped a few notches. Take a guy that gets excited about draining a three and sit him on his @ss for it? Brilliant coaching there. :rolleyes:

As I've said in this thread -- I don't know why Few sat him. Was it for the gesture? I don't know. But I do know that Sam sat the rest of the game.

And as for the interpretation for the gesture, or even the need for it. I'm quite confident that it's generational. I saw no need for it. Others feel that "kids" should be able to celebrate their accomplishments after a successful play.

I'm sure there were Husky fans that had no problem with Matthew Bryan -Amaning posing and flexing his bicep muscles for the under the basket camera after he made a basket when they had the lead against Kentucky the other night. I didn't think that was necessary, nor did I think Sam's "gesture" was necessary.

I respect the fact that there are differences among the Zag fan base on a multitude of areas. I just don't see the need to draw attention after doing something. Again, it's probably generational.

I know one thing -- I just want Elias to get healthy so he can participate in practice. A healthy Elias helps the Zags in many ways.

HOOTER
12-04-2010, 10:42 PM
We need to practice our patience and get back to the reality that whatever we thought and expected this team to be almost immediately upon lacing up was, in fact, mostly the product of our imaginations, hopes and dreams.


First, let me just say my expectations at the beginning of the season were fairly realistic. I cautioned folks to refrain from all the national championship talk and whatnot. That being said, I did expect them to be a good team, and to play well against good teams. Those expectations were far from unrealistic. Those expectations were based on the fact that this team was packed with talent and very well coached. They were not based on imagination or dreams. They were based on reality. This team should be much, much better than they are, period.

demian
12-04-2010, 11:53 PM
My thoughts exactly Zag Daddy I could easily retype your post to describe my thoughts but I wont but I will say thank you for saying it for me you are 100% correct IMO.
More than a new defensive scheme (which I do believe needs to be addressed) defense needs to become A PRIORITY. Defense is not now nor never has been a priority for a Few coached team. His game plan has never, ever, ever been to stop an opponent from scoring. It has been to score more than than the opponent. And he recruits to match his philosophy.

When was the last time you ever saw him pull somebody for a boneheaded defensive play? When was the last time you heard him say, "Player X is going to keep his behind on the bench next to me until he decides he is going to play some defense? The reason that doesn't happen is that it is not a priority.

Looking at them on almost any defensive sequence and it is readily apparent defense is not a priority. They lack fundamentals. Compare, for example today, Butler's players in a defensive stance versus GU. There is no comparison. GU players by and large barely get into a defensive stance. Too often they barely have their knees bent, their hands are at their sides and they sag off their assignments. They do this regularly.

A defensive minded coach would NEVER allow this from any player. Few is not a defensive minded coach and so this is tolerated.

You can't argue with Few's success. It has worked well for him. He's piled up a lot of W's (Although, when I'm honest with myself I think his overall record is "wind aided" from playing in a historically weak conference, but that's beside the point.) The point is you can win a lot of games with his philosophy. And Few does.

Where it becomes more difficult is getting big wins against solid teams. This is why we too often look completely out matched against good teams like we did today.

In my opinion, what you see is what you're going to get. Offense and not defense is going to stay his mantra. And the Zags will continue to win a lot of games. Where that becomes frustrating as a fan is that Defense Wins Championships.

Get used to it. Just don't expect a consistent deep runs in March with that philosophy.

tyko
12-05-2010, 12:41 AM
I'm no expert but in our three losses:

1)SDSU beat us by three when a dude absolutely careered it. I'm not as worried about this loss.

2) KSU made 12-26 threes; we made 3-13.

3) ILL watched our game against KSU, and made 12-23 threes; we made 3-16.


Am I crazy, or does it seem like most of our double-digit losses in recent years have come against teams hoisting, and making [wide open] threes?

I feel like we're those spaceships in the movie Independence Day after they finally figure out how to bring them down. Worse, it doesn't seem like we know it.

tyko
12-05-2010, 12:57 AM
Also we shot 44 twos, where KSU shot only 31.
Then, we shot 43 twos, where ILL shot only 31.

I know the disparity here is a function of them shooting more threes. I guess my point is: why don't we scheme to shoot threes ourselves?

sullyzag66
12-05-2010, 12:58 AM
Lord I hope you're wrong about this. If Few sat him for making that gesture then my level of respect for Few just dropped a few notches. Take a guy that gets excited about draining a three and sit him on his @ss for it? Brilliant coaching there. :rolleyes:
I saw what IowaZag saw. I was thinking at the time that it was too bad that he was already coming out and he had just hit that shot.

Dower was going to be pulled anyway - Sacre and Harris were already at the scorer's table before Sam took his shot.

zagfan1000
12-05-2010, 03:39 PM
Could it be that the two assistant coaches we lost had more influence on the team then we may think?

Angelo Roncalli
12-05-2010, 05:34 PM
When was the last time you ever saw him pull somebody for a boneheaded defensive play? When was the last time you heard him say, "Player X is going to keep his behind on the bench next to me until he decides he is going to play some defense? The reason that doesn't happen is that it is not a priority.
.

Ask Manny Arop why his playing time has been limited.

MDABE80
12-05-2010, 06:30 PM
Get the five best defenders ( who also do offense well) and play dfense, rebound and no to's. It's a formula for lots of V's. Those three things will win the rest of the games. It's not magic. Just play hard nosed defense ...parenthetically, defense does include harrassment beyond the 3 pt line:)

Somebody tell the coaches.

HOOTER
12-05-2010, 07:02 PM
Get the five best defenders ( who also do offense well) and play dfense, rebound and no to's

Makes sense, BUT...which 5 players would you suggest?

ZagDaddy
12-05-2010, 08:21 PM
Ask Manny Arop why his playing time has been limited.

It seems to me Few has made mention on more than one occasion that Manny needs to bring as much effort in practice as he does in the game. I have never heard any reference to not playing defense.

12 years of evidence is difficult to refute. Few's bet has always been "My team's offensive efficiency will beat your team's" and never "My team will stop your team." Defense is and always has played second fiddle to offense in his system.

As I said before, that philosophy wins a lot of games but rarely wins national championships.

Angelo Roncalli
12-05-2010, 09:37 PM
It seems to me Few has made mention on more than one occasion that Manny needs to bring as much effort in practice as he does in the game. I have never heard any reference to not playing defense.

12 years of evidence is difficult to refute. Few's bet has always been "My team's offensive efficiency will beat your team's" and never "My team will stop your team." Defense is and always has played second fiddle to offense in his system.

As I said before, that philosophy wins a lot of games but rarely wins national championships.

You missed the point. Manny has been pulled to the bench more than once this season because he's become lost and defense not gone to his area in the zone defense.

ZagNative
12-05-2010, 10:54 PM
It seems to me Few has made mention on more than one occasion that Manny needs to bring as much effort in practice as he does in the game. I have never heard any reference to not playing defense.
Do you remember this, posted on this past Monday, from the Mark Few Show on KGA?

Tom Hudson: Hey, Mark, speaking about aggressive, talk about Manny. Against Marquette, it seemed like something clicked. He's 7 out of 8 from the field, he's flying around again, he's got his hands on balls, even if he's not grabbing rebounds. He was just very active, and he looked like the kid we saw about midway through last season.

Mark Few: Manny's an interesting situation. When he brings it, he's great. When he doesn't, he's not great. He's got to learn to practice better. He's got to learn to stay in the moment, whether it's games or practices, or what we're doing on offense.

You know, we put him in in the Kansas State game, and for three straight trips, he's in the wrong place in our zone, and people are asking, "What are you doing leaving Pollen and these guys open for three?" For two years, he's played the three spot in our zone, and he was running to the two spot. It's just things like that we've got to get out of his game, and if we can tighten those up, the way he pursues the ball, and the way he's capable of making plays certainly in the course of a game, whether it's just hustling, getting rebounds, or, you know he made a nice pull-up jumper in that game and had a couple of nice drives. So certainly going into this thing, I expected him to be the guy playing the most minutes at the three, but he hasn't performed well enough yet to deserve that.

MDABE80
12-05-2010, 11:15 PM
We've turned this thing inside out for the past 30 hours. Could we move on to WSU? All the comments, complaints and half affed insults won't get an Illinois victory.
Let's focus on WSU as they did a heckova better job on KSU than we did. We win when we can and we need some thing. Few and staff know. We do too!

Moving on....... Cougs look very very tough for us. Decent matches with Moore being back......and Faisal coming into his own. Our bigs must be stronger. Bone's a good coach.

Zagineer
12-06-2010, 12:08 AM
We've turned this thing inside out for the past 30 hours. Could we move on to WSU? All the comments, complaints and half affed insults won't get an Illinois victory.
Let's focus on WSU as they did a heckova better job on KSU than we did. We win when we can and we need some thing. Few and staff know. We do too!

Moving on....... Cougs look very very tough for us. Decent matches with Moore being back......and Faisal coming into his own. Our bigs must be stronger. Bone's a good coach.

Agreed, Dr. A. Hopefully this thread has been therapeutic to many board members. By letting them vent, it has kept some from jumping off a bridge and others from drinking too much Cool-Aid (both, extreme metaphors). After all, we are just observers here. For Few and staff, it's their livelihood. I really don't think any of us could tell them something they don't already know.

Like you said, time to move on. WSU will be a significant challenge.

Time to focus, team. Learn from the past and grow from it.