PDA

View Full Version : Three Point Legends - Continued



Stache
12-04-2010, 03:53 PM
Is it defensive scheme? Is it "bad luck?"

We seem to be on the receiving end of career, three-point shooting games more than most. Perhaps it is a function of following and caring about GU more than other teams, but does this happen to other schools with this sort of frequency?

58% from behind the three line with 11:21 to go in the second half.

Stache
12-04-2010, 03:55 PM
ESPN did a little highlight reel at the break, showing the barage of 3's. There was one shoot with a defender in the picture. Ouch...

kclubfounder
12-04-2010, 03:55 PM
Defensive scheme. It is Few's biggest weakness.

kclubfounder
12-04-2010, 04:00 PM
The fact that it happens year after year, team after team, player after player is a sad commentary on Few's unwillingness to admit that it is a weakness and do something about it.

For the record, I believe this is my 1st comment that is officially critical of my beloved head coach.

But I have reached my tipping point.

Stache
12-04-2010, 04:01 PM
Sacre is not athletic enough to guard the smooth shooting 7 footer.

Stache
12-04-2010, 04:05 PM
I've always justified the high 3 pt. percentage by assuming that you guard the high percentage, inside shot, and you give a little on the lower percentage outside shot. However, I haven't seen a lot of inside threat out of Illinois, so perhaps we jump the outside and invite the inside????

BigTymeONIONS
12-04-2010, 04:07 PM
It's a repeating occurance, year after year, therefore it must be scheme. I understand protecting the paint and the basket but seriously, it is ridiculous. Same thing year after year.

Baldwinzag
12-04-2010, 04:13 PM
Just as Coach Few refuses to foul in a last second 3pt chance, he has said he'll take his chances with the 3pt.

There is a reason we have a pretty solid 2pt defense, but a porous perimeter defense.

We've given up 12+ three's a couple times this season. That is just gross and the reason we're losing these games.

Sad, really.

Weird to see us dominate on the boards and lose by 10+ pts...why? Because we can't defend the perimeter.

deathchina
12-04-2010, 04:23 PM
The college 3 point line is not that far away....

Ezag
12-04-2010, 04:26 PM
Yup this game was lost to the 3...

ZagLawGrad
12-04-2010, 04:26 PM
I'm now a fan of getting rid of the 3 point shot.....

U Zig, I Zag
12-04-2010, 04:26 PM
there must be something fundamently wrong with Few's system. There is no way we can continually be the 3-point haven for other teams.

thickman1
12-04-2010, 04:27 PM
Sacre is not athletic enough to guard the smooth shooting 7 footer.

Sorry, that's garbage. You see Sacre pop out on PG's at top of key on the hedge and he moves just fine.

Defense is about effort and it simply isn't something GU puts much emphasis on. One thing I did see was a toughness that wasn't there in the KSU game and they battled the boards better.

jazzdelmar
12-04-2010, 04:31 PM
sacre and meech played as good as they can play, which was good; harris was streaky good; gray was just dead....this one is on few and on the overall talent level of his recruits. carter? and i was so wrong on kelly; he's a major disappointment. but few just doesnt coach d and he has the leash on too tight all game. since no media ever asks him a mildly critical question, we will never know. great guy, c plus game coach.

zagco
12-04-2010, 06:09 PM
The 3-point shooting thing is something Zagco has harped on for years now. It is mind-boggling. At this point, it simply has to be schematic or something that is just not emphasized at all in practices.

sonuvazag
12-04-2010, 06:20 PM
The lack of three point defense would have made sense more with the type of personel the zags had back in the 90's. Those guys would have loved shooting matches. With this group, the strategy should be to challenge the other team to attack the interior. Its obvious to most here, but i've never heard it mentioned in the mainstream sports media.

btzag
12-04-2010, 07:34 PM
It's a scheme thing which is why it happens year after year but on nights like this when everyone is hitting you just have to give it up to Illinois for shooting lights out. In the CBB game the 3pt game can seriously affect the outcome and tonight was one of those nights. Moving to the pro 3pt line would clean up a lot of this but frankly I think the Illini would have hit just fine from there as well. Just a ridiculous, streaky, and lucky shooting performance by that group.

I would bet money on the Zags to beat that group about 7 out of 10 times.

Pargo the Destroyer
12-04-2010, 07:40 PM
Few states that it's hard when 4 out of 5 defenders are in the right spot and 1 isn't. Then he blames practice, or lack thereof. Also, Tisdale was 2 of 7 from 3 before today on the season. Still no excuse for leaving him open like he was.

Picked that tidbit up from Jim Meehans twitter.

EngineerZag
12-04-2010, 07:45 PM
I would bet money on the Zags to beat that group about 7 out of 10 times.

You have to be drinking major kool-aid to say something like this. The Illini are clearly a much better team.

TacomaZAG
12-04-2010, 08:01 PM
for the same reason every other team "happens" to shoot lights out against the ZAGS. It's because the shooters are so wide open they can catch the ball, gather themselves, square up, and shoot uncontested. Teams kill us from 3 because they are so wide open it is an easy shot. We can't defend the 3 because we don't contest the 3. Until we fix the scheme, we are going to see this again and again, like we have for the past decade or more.

Go ZAGS

MickMick
12-04-2010, 08:20 PM
We will get a first hand look on how to defend the perimeter against WAZZU on Wednesday night.

Anyone watch Butler hang with Duke for awhile today? That team fought through foul trouble, injury and cramps until Duke finally pulled away.

Butler is an excellent team to watch execute good perimeter defense.

So what was it that SMC and Portland specialize in again?

BigTymeONIONS
12-04-2010, 08:30 PM
I would bet money on the Zags to beat that group about 7 out of 10 times.

I'll take that bet... As engineer said, you must be hittin the kool-aid hard this year.

willandi
12-04-2010, 08:34 PM
Should we fire Few and the entire coaching staff, release all scholarship players and make it go with just walk-ons. Is that what I am hearing? A team shot better than they historically do, and better than the season stats would show. Should we do better defensively? of course. Give the guys razors and they could hamstring the opponent. Just kidding, of course. You have to choose your poison...or kool-aid.
I think this team will finish the season fine, make the NCAA's and probably make the sweet 16. With a break here or there, could go farther.
Let's not dump everybody just yet.

thickman1
12-04-2010, 08:59 PM
Ray G was brought in to fix the D right? Again, rebounding was solid with good effort. There was a noticeable difference there but oh that 3pt defense is just horrendous. I think part of the problem is a lack of athleticism for guys to man up with little help. Inevitably someone gets beat and the kick it out to the help defenders man who pop's the 3. Disappointing.


Someone mentioned Kelly - I think it was Jazz. He was right on - major disappointment. He's a big strong kid who plays like a 5' 8" dude on the block.

Hoopaholic
12-04-2010, 09:50 PM
If you TIVO the game, go back to the Illinois run on threes and you will see what Coach was talking about....Harris man hit at least 2 if not 3 3's in a row, all because Harris was out of position in his rotation on defense (way too deep on his help and unable to close out in time because of it on the ball reversal)

It was those that "broke" our spirit. Up to that point it was still a game.

I saw alot of positive .......we were 0-8 in three point shooting the first half....and still in the game

We had Meech sitting for the majority of the first half and we were still in the game

we had Gray with what 2 points at half time and 5 points with 11 minutes to go in the game and we were still within striking distance


I am seeing constant improvement and as I have stated all along as soon as Harris gets healthy and in shape we will be just fine in my book.

I see a tighter and tighter rotation coming up in next 2 weeks and I see this team shaping up and peeking in time for the Memphis game which will give us a truer baramoter of this teams cohesion and play


*Glad to see that some are starting to see and understand the value that meech brings to the table.......was VERY evident today from my viewpoint

SIDE NOTE: Had BLUE HAIR "BIG ED" show up in the suite and all the kids loved taking pictures with him.....AWESOME thank you for stopping by

CaliforniaZaggin'
12-04-2010, 11:31 PM
Upsets in CBB frequently occur because a player or two from the inferior team get hot from three-point land. It's happened for years and to every good team. If Duke loses this year, then I'd bet it's because someone had a career night from long range.

kitzbuel
12-05-2010, 07:02 AM
From the 1:16 mark in the first half to the 10:10 mark in the second half the Illini hit 11 three pointers and tried 14 of them. If the Zags challanged and stopped just 4 of those shots (limiting them to a measly 50% during that period), it is a tie game at the end.


"When the game is going on you don't realize it, but they were pretty open 3s," said Weber, whose team scored 10 of its first 11 baskets from beyond the arc in the second half. "We have good shooters if we pick and choose when we shoot them -- if they're open shots."

CaliforniaZaggin'
12-05-2010, 09:19 AM
That sounds like denial to me.

What'd I say that was incorrect?

Example from this week: #13 Minnesota lost to Virginia, who was 3-3 coming in to that game, in Minneapolis. Virginia shot 76% from three-point land.

EDIT TO ADD: Does this look familiar?

http://boards.gopherhole.com/boards/showthread.php?t=24016

Jedster
12-05-2010, 09:44 AM
Missed the game yesterday as I was at Apple Cup, but pretty obvious in the write-ups what the problem was. Just want to provide a bit of historical perspective as we label and villify GU as the worst 3 pt. team around. Team stats (3 pt %) for the past few years according to Ken Pom (didn't include this year as we're only 7 games in and not ready to draw conclusions from that small sample):

2009-10: 158 out of 347 (46th percentile)
2008-09: 231 out of 344 (67th percentile)
2007-08: 46 out of 341 (13th percentile)
2006-07: 121 out of 336 (36th percentile)

Great? No, especially the 08-09 season, but horrible and stating Few doesn't know how to coach defense or defend the 3 is a bit much. Based on the hyperbole, I expected to see us in the bottom 25% each year in team 3 pt. defense.

For comparison purposes, here's some teams from those same years that are around GU in terms of team 3 Pt. defense. Yes, cherry picked a bit, but all are good teams/programs and wanted to show that teams can have success even if not top 10% in this category.

2009-10: K-State 146th and Maryland 164th
2008-09: Kentucky and K-State 233rd
2007-08: Kansas 55th
2006-07: UW 119th and UCLA 190th

I think as was already referenced by someone above, Meehan had Few's quotes and talking about not everyone is on the same page and they were playing 4 vs 5 on defense because someone was out of position. Reading between the lines, sounds like Elias to me and this is the impact of him not practicing and being out of game shape/speed.

Don't get me wrong, it doesn't make me feel good to see us get torched from 3 pt land, but we should put it in a bit of perspective. And finally, looking at scoring defense for the past few years GU is 156/334, 53/330, 63/328, 204/325. Those stats don't tell me Few can't coach defense, what it says to me is we've been basically average in defense the past four years, some above average, some below.

JPtheBeasta
12-05-2010, 01:33 PM
You have to be drinking major kool-aid to say something like this. The Illini are clearly a much better team.

They were a much better team Saturday. I was not impressed with their post-presence and teams that are willing to defend the perimeter will eat their lunch. I have to say that they do have a more reliable bench, however; I think the Zags starters can hang with anyone, but there is such a drop off from our subs. All of the conventional wisdom was that Illini bigs were more of face up players and our bigs didn't get the message somehow to extend the defense. This loss is on the coaching staff. The D played with no sense of urgency and seemed content to sag back and let Illinois shoot warm-up shots all day. SDSU, K State, and Illinois all shot better than they should have out there. We need to stifle the three early because once the other guys see the ball in the hoop it becomes contagious. they were pretty loose by the end and drained some failry well-contested threes as well because the Zags allowed their confidence to get so high.

titopoet
12-06-2010, 12:59 PM
First, i love the way Few coaches. His offensive sets are among the best. I heard so much criticism about the defensive schemes without any meat to them. Unfortunately, I have add that meat. Few is great, but at times stubborn. He will not foul leading by 3 in the final seconds of a game, despite being the better play. Here is one of Few's weakness, imo. In a responding to a screen, there are several options: fight through, go under, hedge etc. The most common response from Few teams switch in almost every screen. It solves a couple of problems and creates others.

Solving; No need for huge communication as that what you do. You feel a screen and that becomes your man. Pressure on the ball is maintained.

Creating: It leads to mismatches. You can see it the game, Meech was left a couple times in the post defending a Tisdale and Sacre was left on McCamey in the perimeter. Not good.

By being dogmatic about switching, he opens himself up to a well prepared team leading to high scoring games. He is a good enough coach to get away with it in most games. He also has the athletes to get away with it. (The great Piston team of a few years ago could away with it as well, as they started several plays that could guard several positions.)

Still the Illini (A Senior lead team) craved up this D scheme. If they had to run sets in which at times players hedge or fight through and auto switch, Few's D could be more effective. At the very least I would have love to seen a switch back by a post player to bail Meech in the post.

Now, the last thing to say. I am an arm chair QB. Having players change their assignments mid seasons and changing a coaching philosophy is not easy. If I said that Few should pack the line like Bennett does, or play like Butler does by hard hedges, it is silly of me. I would love just a bit more variety. It like calling for football team to suddenly play the spread offense when they were a running team. I would love more through on first down in the current scheme.

cjm720
12-06-2010, 01:11 PM
The fact that it happens year after year, team after team, player after player is a sad commentary on Few's unwillingness to admit that it is a weakness and do something about it.

For the record, I believe this is my 1st comment that is officially critical of my beloved head coach.

But I have reached my tipping point.

Agreed...year after year. It's becoming more than puzzling.

tobizag
12-06-2010, 01:11 PM
His offensive sets are among the best.

can we talk about his end of half/end of game sets/strategy? as we closed out the 1st half, i almost puked when i saw steven alone at midcourt dribbling out the clock, and then just improvising with 5 seconds left. he picks an alpha dog every year and runs that same crap at the end of the half/game every year. bouldin. pargo. raivio. morrison. stepp. it's predictable, and easily defended.

also, when we're down 10 with 5 minutes left (after being down something like 17 a few minutes prior) shouldn't we continue with the sense of urgency on offense? we spent the next few possessions on offense just grinding clock, doing nothing. next thing you know, there's two minutes left and we're still down 10. terrible strategy or terrible execution.

cjm720
12-06-2010, 01:14 PM
Don't get me wrong, it doesn't make me feel good to see us get torched from 3 pt land, but we should put it in a bit of perspective. And finally, looking at scoring defense for the past few years GU is 156/334, 53/330, 63/328, 204/325. Those stats don't tell me Few can't coach defense, what it says to me is we've been basically average in defense the past four years, some above average, some below.

Middle of the NCAA pack is hardly average for a perennial top 25 team.

tobizag
12-06-2010, 01:16 PM
sorry to hijack...back to the point about 3 point legends...i'd like to see someone with more time on their hands pull up the stats on teams/players having a field day against us from 3. clearly our defensive averages against the 3 aren't telling the whole story.

illinois, portland, portland state, st mary's (patty mills broken hand game), st mary's, st mary's, syracuse, memphis, etc, etc, etc....

cjm720
12-06-2010, 01:17 PM
also, when we're down 10 with 5 minutes left (after being down something like 17 a few minutes prior) shouldn't we continue with the sense of urgency on offense? we spent the next few possessions on offense just grinding clock, doing nothing. next thing you know, there's two minutes left and we're still down 10. terrible strategy or terrible execution.

The lack of urgency was disgusting and it happened all game, whether it was on defense or perimeter passing. The end of the game was excruciating...I must have yelled for the screen and pop from Gray every time down the court.

Harris' injury and or rotation are the root causes of the primary issues this team has, but better 3 point defense can be taught and a sense of urgency needs to be prevelent for 40 minutes a game.

Jedster
12-06-2010, 04:56 PM
Middle of the NCAA pack is hardly average for a perennial top 25 team.

I was responding to the premise many had that this team is a debacle guarding the 3 and Few can't coach defense. Stats show we are mostly average in these areas, quite different from the perception of many. Gonzaga's strengths have always been scoring, scoring, and more scoring with defense 2nd, that's the main reason we're perennially top 25. I would love to see improvement in these numbers on defense...we'll see if it happens.

JLGutrocks
12-06-2010, 05:20 PM
I bet that there is not one person among all of you who are #####ing that could take on the schedule our coach does and come out anywhere near 80%. Year in and year out. Winningest active coach. Must be doin something right.

MickMick
12-06-2010, 06:18 PM
I bet that there is not one person among all of you who are #####ing that could take on the schedule our coach does and come out anywhere near 80%. Year in and year out. Winningest active coach. Must be doin something right.

If you are going to win by scoring you gotta recruit/develop scorers. If you are going to win by defending you gotta recruit/develop defenders.

The players have to equal your philosophy.

Frahm, Santangelo, Dickau, Stepp, Morrison, Ravio, Batista, etc., etc., were scorers foremost. They beat teams by outscoring them. The philosophy works with those types of players.