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LongIslandZagFan
12-01-2010, 08:55 AM
as of 11/28/2010... ranked 11th in the country in Assist to TO ratio per the NCAA.

Just sayin'....

cjm720
12-01-2010, 09:01 AM
Way to go Meech!!!

He's looked great so far this year and should continue to improve his decision making.

Best play of the EWU game was the fast break, two handed dime from Meech to Bobby...was beautiful.

Go Meech, Go Zags!!!

ZagLawGrad
12-01-2010, 09:10 AM
Meech is a very valuable asset to this team. He may not be a big scorer, but he brings many other good things.

Speed, disruption and distraction of opponents, relentless movement on the court, aggressiveness, attitude, fearlessness. Those are heard to measure by stats.

zagfan24
12-01-2010, 09:18 AM
The good thing about guys like Meech, who have a lot of pride in what they do...is that they tend to turn criticisms, competition, and even disappointments into dedication and motivation rather well.

His strengths and weaknesses have been discussed on this board ad nauseum, but there aren't many players, past or present, I have cheered for more to succeed.

GUDan07
12-01-2010, 09:27 AM
as of 11/28/2010... ranked 11th in the country in Assist to TO ratio per the NCAA.

Just sayin'....

Sorry LI, but thats just a deceptive stat. While he doesn't turn the ball over, its because he has no opportunity to do so. He walks the ball up the court and hands it off to someone else to initiate the offense. Turnovers from good point guards often come from trying to make difficult passes to set up teammate for good shots which he just doesn't do. If he were serving the purpose of a point guard and still had that ratio, now ThAT would be impressive. The offense needs more from the position that is going to be its main initiator than "just don't screw up!". Thats how bad things have gotten, and thats a sad state.

zagfan24
12-01-2010, 09:33 AM
Sorry LI, but thats just a deceptive stat. While he doesn't turn the ball over, its because he has no opportunity to do so. He walks the ball up the court and hands it off to someone else to initiate the offense. Turnovers from good point guards often come from trying to make difficult passes to set up teammate for good shots which he just doesn't do. If he were serving the purpose of a point guard and still had that ratio, now ThAT would be impressive. The offense needs more from the position that is going to be its main initiator than "just don't screw up!". Thats how bad things have gotten, and thats a sad state.

Respectfully disagree...it's an assist to turnover ratio. It would be one thing if he were only low in turnovers, but this stat is also representative of the fact that he is improving in his ability to get guys the ball in a position to score.

ZagLawGrad
12-01-2010, 09:33 AM
He walks the ball up the court and hands it off to someone else to initiate the offense. .

You may not have literally meant it that way, but I've never seen Meech walk anywhere on the court.

He's on the move all the time, and that's one of the reasons he causes an opponent problems. And he makes a lot more plays than you give him credit for.

gozagswoohoo
12-01-2010, 09:38 AM
Sorry LI, but thats just a deceptive stat. While he doesn't turn the ball over, its because he has no opportunity to do so. He walks the ball up the court and hands it off to someone else to initiate the offense. Turnovers from good point guards often come from trying to make difficult passes to set up teammate for good shots which he just doesn't do. If he were serving the purpose of a point guard and still had that ratio, now ThAT would be impressive. The offense needs more from the position that is going to be its main initiator than "just don't screw up!". Thats how bad things have gotten, and thats a sad state.

Sorry...but exactly as zagsfan24 says...you aren't understanding the term ratio here.


Congrats Meech, that's quite an accomplishment. KEEP IT UP!!!!!!

CDC84
12-01-2010, 09:49 AM
Meech is initiating the offense more often this year than he did last year. If you don't believe me, go back to last year's game tape. There's a big difference. He's not just flat out handing it off every possession like he did when Bouldin was around. A lot of Meech's assists so far this season have been to Steven Gray. Meech is averaging more APG this season.

I think what's important to note is that Meech last season basically had a 1 to 1 assist to turnover ratio. He was more turnover prone last season - even when he had less responsibilities in terms of running the offense.

Yes, in an ideal world I would like to see Meech get above 6 APG, but he is gradually improving. Especially the last couple of games.

ridgebackzag
12-01-2010, 09:53 AM
I saw a few no-look passes last night from 3 rows up that I was impressed with. I think Meech's contribution is controlled by the coaching staff. He doesn't have the green light to shoot just yet it seems. He's getting better every game, every year.

jazzdelmar
12-01-2010, 09:58 AM
clearly, meech is the best point guard we have.

dnj116
12-01-2010, 10:12 AM
clearly, meech is the best point guard we have.

True, but I was happy with Carter's contributions and improvements displayed last night. Indeed, it was against a lesser opponent, but what he really needed was to get a confidence boost to kick start him this season. He made several good passes, looked more in control with his play, and didn't appear to be as lost in the offense (although I did see some defensive lapses that weren't exploited by EWU that may have against a better team). These are all things he can build on, and hopefully he does just that.

Oh, and kudos to Meech. Looks like his hard work is paying off. He's capable of hitting the three (albeit not consistently) which is keeping other teams more honest this year. I can remember two occasions last night that he drove to the hoop and kicked it out to the perimeter for an open shot. This is what we need from him.

GUDan07
12-01-2010, 10:26 AM
Sorry...but exactly as zagsfan24 says...you aren't understanding the term ratio here.

I assure you I have a very firm grasp on the concept of a ratio, and unless you look at the underlying figures, the ratio is meaningless. What if he had one turnover in the first game and never had another for the whole season. And lets also assume he averaged .5 assists a game for that same season. That would be an assist/TO ratio of something like 16.0. Would that be indicative of a good season? No. On the surface, the low turnovers look great, but its like the catcher in baseball that gets 3 steals in a season when the other team is sleeping and has a perfect average. It doesn't make him a good base-stealer. If Goodson were running the offense, that would be a remarkable number. As it stands, it comes off as looking for anyway possible to justify the job he's doing.

JPtheBeasta
12-01-2010, 10:28 AM
Meech at least has shown that he is coachable. After his 9 (?) rebound game he said that Few told him in to get in there and rebound. After one of the first games when he had several transition buckets and pushed tempo all game he said that he was encouraged to do so by Few. He brings defensive intensity/focus every game, which have kept Arop and Dower off of the floor for chunks of time this year. He also isn't a liablity when bringing the ball up the court- it seemed to me that K State trapped a lot more when Stockton was running the point. He also avoiding stupid fouls, for the most part. Each of these things is one less thing for the coach to worry about during a game and allows him to focus more on the X's and O's. I really feel like if the bigs didn't get abused down low in the two losses we wouldn't be so critical of Meech, as his assist/TO would be even better.

BroncoZAG615
12-01-2010, 10:50 AM
I assure you I have a very firm grasp on the concept of a ratio, and unless you look at the underlying figures, the ratio is meaningless. What if he had one turnover in the first game and never had another for the whole season. And lets also assume he averaged .5 assists a game for that same season. That would be an assist/TO ratio of something like 16.0. Would that be indicative of a good season? No. On the surface, the low turnovers look great, but its like the catcher in baseball that gets 3 steals in a season when the other team is sleeping and has a perfect average. It doesn't make him a good base-stealer. If Goodson were running the offense, that would be a remarkable number. As it stands, it comes off as looking for anyway possible to justify the job he's doing.

I'm not trying to be a dick but is Meech really handing the ball off as much as he did last year? Last year, with Matt, it was terribly obvious but I have noticed that has gone down a TON.

Obviously there are still plays where Steven is in control. Meech's first pass typically goes to Steven or to Rob (while Elias is out) but I have not noticed the dribble up the court, hand it off like we saw last year. I've noticed some nice drives and kicks, some nice, high post feeds. Overall, I've noticed improvements from him as a point guard.

Martin Centre Mad Man
12-01-2010, 11:22 AM
This kid is a much better player than he was a year ago. He is taking better care of the ball and making fewer mistakes. He seems to be making better passes and shooting better, even if he still does not take a lot of shots.

Let's just enjoy watching him grow and hope that the team around him improves as much as he does.

gozagswoohoo
12-01-2010, 11:30 AM
I assure you I have a very firm grasp on the concept of a ratio, and unless you look at the underlying figures, the ratio is meaningless. What if he had one turnover in the first game and never had another for the whole season. And lets also assume he averaged .5 assists a game for that same season. That would be an assist/TO ratio of something like 16.0. Would that be indicative of a good season? No. On the surface, the low turnovers look great, but its like the catcher in baseball that gets 3 steals in a season when the other team is sleeping and has a perfect average. It doesn't make him a good base-stealer. If Goodson were running the offense, that would be a remarkable number. As it stands, it comes off as looking for anyway possible to justify the job he's doing.

Yeah, well if my aunt had nuts, she'd be my uncle.








Here's the thing. Since Meech has gotten here, all people have done was ***** and moan about him. Is he an all-american? No. Is he close? No. But how many D1 teams have an all-american PG? Like .333 percent or something like that, I don't know, I'm bad at percentages. But you know what I mean. But guess what we DO have? An (IMO) all-american SG in Steven Gray, and a HELL of a player in Elias Harris. How many teams have a one two punch of that caliber? I'm not saying you don't realize we have those guys, but the point I'm trying to make, is how many teams have as much as we do? Not that many. At all. Why can't we be pumped about what we DO have? It gets SOO old that the 'bashing' threads always out-number the 'praise' threads. Win or lose, people find something to hate on.

Like I said, all people have ever done was complain about Meech. Yet....he has improved. He has improved that RATIO significantly since last season. We have ALWAYS known he wasn't going to go off and average 15 ppg, so what is the next best thing?? How about increasing assists, and minimizing turnovers?? And that's what he has done.

LongIslandZagFan
12-01-2010, 11:31 AM
I assure you I have a very firm grasp on the concept of a ratio, and unless you look at the underlying figures, the ratio is meaningless. What if he had one turnover in the first game and never had another for the whole season. And lets also assume he averaged .5 assists a game for that same season. That would be an assist/TO ratio of something like 16.0. Would that be indicative of a good season? No. On the surface, the low turnovers look great, but its like the catcher in baseball that gets 3 steals in a season when the other team is sleeping and has a perfect average. It doesn't make him a good base-stealer. If Goodson were running the offense, that would be a remarkable number. As it stands, it comes off as looking for anyway possible to justify the job he's doing.

Umm... not sure you do.

If Meech continues at his current pace he will double his total assists for the season. As it is he is 1/3rd the way to last year's total in 6 games. take out the KSU game and his APG goes up to 4.4 which would put him the top 100 in the country. Meech has hit 6 assists twice and 4 twice. Southern actually brings his average down as he only played 18 minutes.

Honestly... you are just plain wrong.

LongIslandZagFan
12-01-2010, 11:38 AM
More info:

Average everything out to a 40 minute game and Meech would be at 5.7 APG and .5 TOs. BTW he has played 155 minutes to this point or about 25 minutes a game.

Would you like more information to show you how you are wrong? Fact of the matter is that you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever to substantiate your claims... so in the end it comes down to the fact that you just plain don't like him.

titopoet
12-01-2010, 11:46 AM
Sorry LI, but thats just a deceptive stat. While he doesn't turn the ball over, its because he has no opportunity to do so. He walks the ball up the court and hands it off to someone else to initiate the offense. Turnovers from good point guards often come from trying to make difficult passes to set up teammate for good shots which he just doesn't do. If he were serving the purpose of a point guard and still had that ratio, now ThAT would be impressive. The offense needs more from the position that is going to be its main initiator than "just don't screw up!". Thats how bad things have gotten, and thats a sad state.

3.7 assists per game translate to 22 assists with only 4 turnovers. He is second on the team in assists to Gray. He has 7+ minutes less than Gray, and averaging less than one TO a game is outstanding. Period.


The offense needs more from the position that is going to be its main initiator than "just don't screw up!".

Meech has been a contributor in all of GU's wins, and not as a warm body. If he continues to bring what he has brought so far, he should be considered one of the best Defensive PG in GU history and one of the better PG in the country. And Again. Period.

BroncoZAG615
12-01-2010, 11:48 AM
More info:

Average everything out to a 40 minute game and Meech would be at 5.7 APG and .5 TOs. BTW he has played 155 minutes to this point or about 25 minutes a game.

Would you like more information to show you how you are wrong? Fact of the matter is that you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever to substantiate your claims... so in the end it comes down to the fact that you just plain don't like him.

LIZF, I truly think you don't get it. I'll simplify for you.

Meech's A-T ratio is similar to a chicken crossing the road in North Dakota. He might make it across a few times, but does that make him a successful chicken? Could he do that same thing in New York? Or, how about on the Autobahn!?

Ezag
12-01-2010, 11:58 AM
Here's the thing. Since Meech has gotten here, all people have done was ***** and moan about him. Is he an all-american? No. Is he close? No. But how many D1 teams have an all-american PG? Like .333 percent or something like that, I don't know, I'm bad at percentages. But you know what I mean. But guess what we DO have? An (IMO) all-american SG in Steven Gray, and a HELL of a player in Elias Harris. How many teams have a one two punch of that caliber? I'm not saying you don't realize we have those guys, but the point I'm trying to make, is how many teams have as much as we do? Not that many. At all. Why can't we be pumped about what we DO have? It gets SOO old that the 'bashing' threads always out-number the 'praise' threads. Win or lose, people find something to hate on.


Good point! I think we were spoiled by 10 years of above average point guards and after that long, it just becomes the normal expectation even though it may be unrealistic at this point. While it is nice to have Gray and Harris as our 1-2 punch, even the past years when we had great point guards we usually had a 1-2 punch also

ronh_pm
12-01-2010, 12:08 PM
For point guards that have played a minimum of 5 games Meech is tied with two others for 16th in NCAA.

I know it is Meechs fault for the way they keep stats but until they change this stat to measure how "fans" feel about Meech's A/T ratio he will remain where he is among the leaders.

FuManShoes
12-01-2010, 12:11 PM
LIZF, I truly think you don't get it. I'll simplify for you.

Meech's A-T ratio is similar to a chicken crossing the road in North Dakota. He might make it across a few times, but does that make him a successful chicken? Could he do that same thing in New York? Or, how about on the Autobahn!?

Is your point that Meech doesn't make difficult assists, so his success in not mucking up easy plays isn't to be lauded? I see that ratio as a good thing, even if the sample set is "simple plays." Yes, perhaps it is a reflection of Meech's limitations as a playmaker, but it is also a sign that he recognizes those weaknesses and isn't trying to force things.

northsidezagfan
12-01-2010, 12:36 PM
What if he had one turnover in the first game and never had another for the whole season.

Sounds like a pretty good season to me

cjm720
12-01-2010, 12:39 PM
Sorry LI, but thats just a deceptive stat. While he doesn't turn the ball over, its because he has no opportunity to do so. He walks the ball up the court and hands it off to someone else to initiate the offense. Turnovers from good point guards often come from trying to make difficult passes to set up teammate for good shots which he just doesn't do. If he were serving the purpose of a point guard and still had that ratio, now ThAT would be impressive. The offense needs more from the position that is going to be its main initiator than "just don't screw up!". Thats how bad things have gotten, and thats a sad state.

He did what you're saying last year, plus way more if you really watch, and the stat is a major improvement. You weren't sayin that stat was deceptive in the offseason...

GUDan07
12-01-2010, 01:19 PM
Fact of the matter is that you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever to substantiate your claims... so in the end it comes down to the fact that you just plain don't like him.

I've provided you plenty of evidence, you just choose to be ignorant of it. When did it become a situation where you either like Goodson as a PG or hate him? I don't hate him. I wish nothing but the best for the kid. I wish he would go out and initiate the offense make plays, but the fact is he doesn't. I love the way he plays defense. I love it when he screams up the court before the defense gets set and gets an easy layup. However, I refuse to join your little club of Meech apologetics and justify his subpar PG play. Additionally, I reject the notion that recognizing that he's not getting the job done makes me a poor fan or a Goodson hater.

As far as the idea that if you take out the Kansas game his assists totals are better...really? Fine, you could just as easily take out the games against the cupcakes we've played so far and his assists drop below what they're showing. Same goes for the 40 min per game. He plays 25 min/game, thats starter minutes. Dower is averaging 14 rebounds per game on a 40 min/game average! He must be an All American! Combine that with his 25ppg on a 40 minute basis and we've found the next Olajuwon ladies and gentlemen! You can twist the stats however you like and the fact will remain that he is not an ideal offensive point guard.

LongIslandZagFan
12-01-2010, 01:29 PM
LIZF, I truly think you don't get it. I'll simplify for you.

Meech's A-T ratio is similar to a chicken crossing the road in North Dakota. He might make it across a few times, but does that make him a successful chicken? Could he do that same thing in New York? Or, how about on the Autobahn!?


Again, you don't seem to get it. He is playing significant minutes, he is getting assists on average of about 4 per game. It isn't top 10 material in terms of PG... but it ain't bad either.


Lets see some other APG stats:

Dan Dickau in 01/02 - 4.7
Pargo in his sr. year - 4.9

So explain to me exactly how this is statistically not valid. He is averaging close to what these guys did and doing so with less TOs.

Again, just plain wrong. Fact of the matter is that he is on pace for 120-130 assists for the season which would at the very least double what he has done in the past and heaven forbid he is doing it without turning the rock over.

Lets put it more succinctly for you... he is playing 2/3 of each game and is NOT turning the ball over. In fact in the 6 games he has played he is averaging under 1 TO a game. Should we throw out Steven's scoring stats since he has only played 6 games?

I work with data all day, every day at work, I know about sample sizes.

sittingon50
12-01-2010, 01:35 PM
a person can make statistics work however they see fit.

Now, I want to know more about WooHoo's Aunt.

gozagswoohoo
12-01-2010, 01:35 PM
I've provided you plenty of evidence, you just choose to be ignorant of it. When did it become a situation where you either like Goodson as a PG or hate him? I don't hate him. I wish nothing but the best for the kid. I wish he would go out and initiate the offense make plays, but the fact is he doesn't. I love the way he plays defense. I love it when he screams up the court before the defense gets set and gets an easy layup. However, I refuse to join your little club of Meech apologetics and justify his subpar PG play. Additionally, I reject the notion that recognizing that he's not getting the job done makes me a poor fan or a Goodson hater.



Hense...the low number of assists....?? He DOES make plays. He does just about everything but score! I'm not saying he is some incredible PG, but to say he doesn't make plays just boggles my mind.


It's threads/arguments like this that make me want to pee in my own pants, and just sit in it. At first...the pee would be warm, and probably not feel to bad. But after like 5 minutes, it would cool down quite a bit and be very uncomfortable to sit in. This isn't an analogy or anything, I'm just saying that I would rather pee in my own pants and sit in it for a while, than have to have this/these arguments day in and day out, after a loss and/or win, after huge point scoring/low point scoring by certain players. It's always somethin...

LongIslandZagFan
12-01-2010, 01:39 PM
I've provided you plenty of evidence, you just choose to be ignorant of it. When did it become a situation where you either like Goodson as a PG or hate him? I don't hate him. I wish nothing but the best for the kid. I wish he would go out and initiate the offense make plays, but the fact is he doesn't. I love the way he plays defense. I love it when he screams up the court before the defense gets set and gets an easy layup. However, I refuse to join your little club of Meech apologetics and justify his subpar PG play. Additionally, I reject the notion that recognizing that he's not getting the job done makes me a poor fan or a Goodson hater.

As far as the idea that if you take out the Kansas game his assists totals are better...really? Fine, you could just as easily take out the games against the cupcakes we've played so far and his assists drop below what they're showing. Same goes for the 40 min per game. He plays 25 min/game, thats starter minutes. Dower is averaging 14 rebounds per game on a 40 min/game average! He must be an All American! Combine that with his 25ppg on a 40 minute basis and we've found the next Olajuwon ladies and gentlemen! You can twist the stats however you like and the fact will remain that he is not an ideal offensive point guard.

Tell you what, I trust Mark Few, who has said quite clearly that Meech is having a great season so far. But I guess only YOU can determine what a good season is. BTW his numbers are good even WITH the KSU game. Exactly what evidence have you shown? Please elighten me more as to which post those nuggets of detail are.

LongIslandZagFan
12-01-2010, 01:40 PM
a person can make statistics work however they see fit.

Now, I want to know more about WooHoo's Aunt.

True, but the fact is he averages close to 4 APG and doesn't turn the ball over while playing 2/3rds of every game. Seems pretty cut and dry.

GUDan07
12-01-2010, 01:41 PM
Again, you don't seem to get it. He is playing significant minutes, he is getting assists on average of about 4 per game. It isn't top 10 material in terms of PG... but it ain't bad either.


Lets see some other APG stats:

Dan Dickau in 01/02 - 4.7
Pargo in his sr. year - 4.9

So explain to me exactly how this is statistically not valid. He is averaging close to what these guys did and doing so with less TOs.

Again, just plain wrong. Fact of the matter is that he is on pace for 120-130 assists for the season which would at the very least double what he has done in the past and heaven forbid he is doing it without turning the rock over.

Lets put it more succinctly for you... he is playing 2/3 of each game and is NOT turning the ball over. In fact in the 6 games he has played he is averaging under 1 TO a game. Should we throw out Steven's scoring stats since he has only played 6 games?

I work with data all day, every day at work, I know about sample sizes.

First off LI, I've got nothing but love for a fellow NYer, and I agree with and enjoy most of your posts, but you just don't seem to get the point I'm making. It's like Derek Jeter winning the gold glove. Jeter won the gold glove this year in part due to his high fielding percentage. The reason that his fielding percentage was high is that the balls you end up making errors on are the balls in the hole that are difficult plays to make. So while his peers that are beter defenders are ranging for balls and preventing runs that are negatively affecting their fielding, he doesn't get to them and as such enjoys a better percentage.

If you don't like baseball, how about football? Consider the quarterback with a less than prodigious arm. Instead of making incredible passes down the field, he hands the ball to the back and makes short throws to the check down. Do his low interception numbers make him a better QB than the guy who makes those throws?

The same correlation can be drawn with Goodson. He doesn't attempt the difficult plays and as a result, his turnovers are down. If he was going out there like Steve Nash and making incredible passes into the paint to set up his teammates for easy buckets and positively impacting his teams scoring then you would have a point. This is an issue of sample size, but rather incomparable samples.

LongIslandZagFan
12-01-2010, 01:49 PM
First off LI, I've got nothing but love for a fellow NYer, and I agree with and enjoy most of your posts, but you just don't seem to get the point I'm making. It's like Derek Jeter winning the gold glove. Jeter won the gold glove this year in part due to his high fielding percentage. The reason that his fielding percentage was high is that the balls you end up making errors on are the balls in the hole that are difficult plays to make. So while his peers that are beter defenders are ranging for balls and preventing runs that are negatively affecting their fielding, he doesn't get to them and as such enjoys a better percentage.

If you don't like baseball, how about football? Consider the quarterback with a less than prodigious arm. Instead of making incredible passes down the field, he hands the ball to the back and makes short throws to the check down. Do his low interception numbers make him a better QB than the guy who makes those throws?

The same correlation can be drawn with Goodson. He doesn't attempt the difficult plays and as a result, his turnovers are down. If he was going out there like Steve Nash and making incredible passes into the paint to set up his teammates for easy buckets and positively impacting his teams scoring then you would have a point. This is an issue of sample size, but rather incomparable samples.

That is where your argument falls apart. By your standards, that weak armed QB shouldn't get credit for his TDs because they were all thrown 15 yards or less as well as not throwing the INT. What you are also missing is the fact that he is on the floor, playing and not turning the ball over for about 2/3rds of the game.

GUDan07
12-01-2010, 01:52 PM
That is where your argument falls apart. By your standards, that weak armed QB shouldn't get credit for his TDs because they were all thrown 15 yards or less as well as not throwing the INT. What you are also missing is the fact that he is on the floor, playing and not turning the ball over for about 2/3rds of the game.

NO, no, no!!! I'm not saying he shouldn't get credit for his touchdowns!!! He should not be commended for his lack of interceptions!

Do you get it now?

SWZag
12-01-2010, 01:54 PM
Meech has shown great improvement this year, and it's very evident. Not only the proof from his statistics, but the non-tangibles. I thought this last year and it's just reinforced my opinion this year, but he brings this team together. He has the attitude of a strong leader. His energy and enthusiasm pulls this team together. Those are things that aren't measured on a stat sheet.

Since we have many other players on the team that can score, I'd much rather have a point guard with a high assist-to-turnover ratio than one who tries to score himself. Point guards used to be responsible for getting the ball in play and into the middle. I believe the main point guard stat should be the assist-to-turnover ratio. Not points. That's why we have a "shooting" guard.

Meech, keep it up. I thoroughly enjoy your toughness and game!

SWZag

gozagswoohoo
12-01-2010, 01:57 PM
Since we have many other players on the team that can score, I'd much rather have a point guard with a high assist-to-turnover ratio than one who tries to score himself.


Exactly the point I made earlier!!! We don't NEED him to be the Pullen type of PG. It would be great, sure, but we know we don't have that. All we asked last season was that Meech would improve, and he has. He provides VERY solid handling, and does a good job of GETTING THE BALL TO OUR SCORERS.

FuManShoes
12-01-2010, 02:00 PM
First off LI, I've got nothing but love for a fellow NYer, and I agree with and enjoy most of your posts, but you just don't seem to get the point I'm making. It's like Derek Jeter winning the gold glove. Jeter won the gold glove this year in part due to his high fielding percentage. The reason that his fielding percentage was high is that the balls you end up making errors on are the balls in the hole that are difficult plays to make. So while his peers that are beter defenders are ranging for balls and preventing runs that are negatively affecting their fielding, he doesn't get to them and as such enjoys a better percentage.

If you don't like baseball, how about football? Consider the quarterback with a less than prodigious arm. Instead of making incredible passes down the field, he hands the ball to the back and makes short throws to the check down. Do his low interception numbers make him a better QB than the guy who makes those throws?

The same correlation can be drawn with Goodson. He doesn't attempt the difficult plays and as a result, his turnovers are down. If he was going out there like Steve Nash and making incredible passes into the paint to set up his teammates for easy buckets and positively impacting his teams scoring then you would have a point. This is an issue of sample size, but rather incomparable samples.

Sounds like you don't think A/T ratio is a valid stat for a PG or TD/Int ratio is a valid stat for QBs or fielding % is a valid stat for ball players because such metrics don't take into account the difficulty of the play. I and a whole bunch of other people would argue with that logic because the "difficulty" of a play is inherently subjective and executing a "difficult" play is rarely reflective of the intelligence or talent of the player. We'll call your measure of PG productivity the "Favre" because it seems to prize balls over smarts.

gozagswoohoo
12-01-2010, 02:08 PM
NO, no, no!!! I'm not saying he shouldn't get credit for his touchdowns!!! He should not be commended for his lack of interceptions!

Do you get it now?

I have to admit, never, ever, ever, in my short 28 years of a mostly wasted life, have I EVER heard an announcer or ESPN analyst say anything remotely close to "Well guys, Quarterback Francis McGee threw for 277 yards, including 3 TD's, and zero interceptions, giving him one of the top QB ratings of 119. But don't let those stats fool you, he actually was not effective, and should be demoted to place-kicker. Most of his passes were very short, and caught by really good receivers who did most of the work after the catch."

That's what you're saying right? Okay, maybe I've missed them saying stuff like that. I will listen more.

cjm720
12-01-2010, 02:09 PM
First off LI, I've got nothing but love for a fellow NYer, and I agree with and enjoy most of your posts, but you just don't seem to get the point I'm making. It's like Derek Jeter winning the gold glove. Jeter won the gold glove this year in part due to his high fielding percentage. The reason that his fielding percentage was high is that the balls you end up making errors on are the balls in the hole that are difficult plays to make. So while his peers that are beter defenders are ranging for balls and preventing runs that are negatively affecting their fielding, he doesn't get to them and as such enjoys a better percentage.

If you don't like baseball, how about football? Consider the quarterback with a less than prodigious arm. Instead of making incredible passes down the field, he hands the ball to the back and makes short throws to the check down. Do his low interception numbers make him a better QB than the guy who makes those throws?

The same correlation can be drawn with Goodson. He doesn't attempt the difficult plays and as a result, his turnovers are down. If he was going out there like Steve Nash and making incredible passes into the paint to set up his teammates for easy buckets and positively impacting his teams scoring then you would have a point. This is an issue of sample size, but rather incomparable samples.

Bad analogies:

The baseball one - wouldn't be an error if it was a difficult play in the hole.

Goodson - I honestly don't think you watch the game. Did you notice that two handed chest pass to Sacre while at full speed? Beautiful. Of course, he had an awful high low pass that was his turnover. So is it sample size? Or is it, god forbid, he's just making smarter decisions overall?

sonuvazag
12-01-2010, 02:10 PM
NO, no, no!!! I'm not saying he shouldn't get credit for his touchdowns!!! He should not be commended for his lack of interceptions!

Do you get it now?
To take your analogy further, some teams are well-suited for those game manager type qb's. Trent Dilfer is a Super Bowl Champion and that's because he played it safe and smart. Tom Brady has not been a champion since he started racking the stats. He was also more of a game manager back in the early 2000's. Both Pats and Ravens were teams with great D.

Some of us are pleased that Meech isn't forcing it. You're not. No big whoop.

zag944
12-01-2010, 02:14 PM
Not much of a sample size yet of course. If he were to go out and have, say, 5 assists and 3 TOs against Illinois his ratio would drop more than a point.

Eye test however has him looking better and more confident out there. Even though his shooting %age is lower than previous years (again, small sample size), I dont think we will see as many defenses sagging off him this year. He doesnt need to be a scorer like some GU pgs have, but I do hope he can punish teams that dont respect his shot.

GUDan07
12-01-2010, 02:17 PM
To take your analogy further, some teams are well-suited for those game manager type qb's. Trent Dilfer is a Super Bowl Champion and that's because he played it safe and smart. Tom Brady has not been a champion since he started racking the stats. He was also more of a game manager back in the early 2000's. Both Pats and Ravens were teams with great D.

Some of us are pleased that Meech isn't forcing it. You're not. No big whoop.

Trent Dilfer is a perfect analogy for what we get out of Meech. Not gonna win you any games, not going to lose any. Unfortunately for us, I don't think anyone is confusing our defense for the basketball equivalent of the Ravens of the early 2000's.

sonuvazag
12-01-2010, 02:29 PM
I don't think anyone is confusing our defense for the basketball equivalent of the Ravens of the early 2000's.
True. But they could be. Everyone has weaknesses. Peyton Manning could work on his running. Should he?

I think this team could be much better by being more of what they are already good at.

cjm720
12-01-2010, 02:32 PM
Trent Dilfer is a perfect analogy for what we get out of Meech. Not gonna win you any games, not going to lose any. Unfortunately for us, I don't think anyone is confusing our defense for the basketball equivalent of the Ravens of the early 2000's.

Western Kentucky two years ago and Florida State last year come to mind.

As an aside, who would have thought Meech would average more rebounds/game that Arop at this point in the season?

maynard g krebs
12-01-2010, 03:03 PM
Since we have many other players on the team that can score, I'd much rather have a point guard with a high assist-to-turnover ratio than one who tries to score himself. Point guards used to be responsible for getting the ball in play and into the middle. I believe the main point guard stat should be the assist-to-turnover ratio. Not points. That's why we have a "shooting" guard.


SWZag

Meech has certainly improved, and the a/to numbers, as well as the way his jumper looks, show that. But if you break the numbers down by quality opposition (KS, SDS, Mar.)/weak oppositionEWU,IUPUI,Southern), it gives some validity to what Dan is saying.

V. weak teams, Meech has 14a/4to (4.7 apg, 3.5 a/to). V. good teams, 8/1 (2.7 apg, 8/1 ratio). In March, v. quality opposition, 2.7 apg from the pg won't get it done. The fact that he has only one to in those games is good on the surface, but with the low asst #'s, it lends credence to the idea that he's not acting as a playmaker enough in big games. Bird and Magic both led the NBA in turnovers if memory serves. Sometimes high risk equals high reward.

Another fact to be concerned about, which correlates to the above: v. weak comp, Gray is 13-20 from 3 (65%); v. strong comp, he's 8/26 (31%). And minus the 5/11 v. Marquette, it's 20% (3/15 total v. KSU, SDS). It's fairly apparent that Gray isn't getting good looks against good comp, and is having to carry a too much of the playmaking load.

sittingon50
12-01-2010, 03:14 PM
Can't believe no one else is as interested in WooHoo's Aunt. I must be one sick individual.

ZagsObserver
12-01-2010, 03:14 PM
I try not to get involved in these discussions unless people try to make Meech out to be an elite player which, in my opinion, he's not. Problem is, this has happened a lot this year and last, and I've tried to put a dose of reality out there. So, for all those who cry about someone inserting a bit of realism into the equation (and calling it "bashing"), please do realize that it is often initiated by someone being unrealistic about his contributions to the team first. Ironically, it's okay to say that Sacre is not rebounding well, and that he is not a factor like he should be, but it's not okay to make a similar comment about meech.

Jedster
12-01-2010, 03:24 PM
While he doesn't turn the ball over, its because he has no opportunity to do so. He walks the ball up the court and hands it off to someone else to initiate the offense.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in order to get an assist, you have to pass the ball to a teammate who then makes a field goal. So, if he's not handling the ball, how is he getting assists then?

Seriously though, we've all #####ed that Meech needs to distribute the ball more and now we aren't happy with him because he's not making the difficult "Sportscenter highlight) assists? We are a tough crowd. In theory, I do understand what you are saying....those acrobatic sweet passes can really make an offense click. Is it needed from Meech for us to win, and more importantly for Meech to be deemed a successful PG? No, not in my opinion. Remember, one of the things not counted in the assist category is a pass to a team mate who misses an easy layup or who gets fouled and goes to the line. We've had quite a number of those plays that don't reflect in Meech's stat line (or anyone else's).

BroncoZAG615
12-01-2010, 03:25 PM
I try not to get involved in these discussions unless people try to make Meech out to be an elite player which, in my opinion, he's not. Problem is, this has happened a lot this year and last, and I've tried to put a dose of reality out there. So, for all those who cry about someone inserting a bit of realism into the equation (and calling it "bashing"), please do realize that it is often initiated by someone being unrealistic about his contributions to the team first. Ironically, it's okay to say that Sacre is not rebounding well, and that he is not a factor like he should be, but it's not okay to make a similar comment about meech.

While I thank you for trying real, real, reallll hard not to get involved in this thread, I don't think there is really any unrealistic optimism here. Simply some notices of improvement for young Demetri and some stats on his assist to turnover ratio, which is apparently equivalent to a slow catcher stealing three bases.

I see you improving, Meech.

cjm720
12-01-2010, 03:39 PM
V. weak teams, Meech has 14a/4to (4.7 apg, 3.5 a/to). V. good teams, 8/1 (2.7 apg, 8/1 ratio). In March, v. quality opposition, 2.7 apg from the pg won't get it done. The fact that he has only one to in those games is good on the surface, but with the low asst #'s, it lends credence to the idea that he's not acting as a playmaker enough in big games. Bird and Magic both led the NBA in turnovers if memory serves. Sometimes high risk equals high reward.

Would love to see a breakdown of missed shots from Sacre, etc. Seen a ton this year...Meech would certainly have a higher assist total.

Meech and analogies/comparisons to Jeter, Dilfer, Bird, Magic...this kid can't get a break!!

BobZag
12-01-2010, 03:40 PM
I dig the improvements pointed out by Meehan. He's trying hard and succeeding in doing what is asked of him.

But if this turns into a Meech bashing thread (for the umpteenth time), it'll go the way of the now boring Heister/Ehlo threads.

ronh_pm
12-01-2010, 03:43 PM
.

V. weak teams, Meech has 14a/4to (4.7 apg, 3.5 a/to). V. good teams, 8/1 (2.7 apg, 8/1 ratio). In March, v. quality opposition, 2.7 apg from the pg won't get it done. The fact that he has only one to in those games is good on the surface, but with the low asst #'s, it lends credence to the idea that he's not acting as a playmaker enough in big games. Bird and Magic both led the NBA in turnovers if memory serves. Sometimes high risk equals high reward.


Meech is measured as is every other PG, that is, against the teams they have played.

Though I have no inclination to look it up, I would be somewhat surprised if the tendancies you pointed out for Meech were any different for any other guard namely,

1.)When your team scores more you have more assists.
2.)Your team scores more against weaker teams
3.)It's not your fault your team plays weaker teams

This thread, which started out with a simple fact stated in a very simple one line sentence, is bordering on, no, has crossed the border into lunacy.

Hoopaholic
12-01-2010, 04:06 PM
in anticipation of this thread I charted the game last night.

Goodson made entry pass into Sacre 2 times that created free throws...GEE NO ASSIST but his passes garnered points for the team

Goodson made nice pass to Gray for open look 3 point shot, MISSED....Gee no assist but his pass garnered a nice open look for our shooter

Goodson made a nice lead pass to Gray on fastbreak, oopps gray dribbled, thus no assist to Goodson, BUT WE GOT POINTS as a team created by his push ahead pass

Goodson handled the ball entire time he was in and initiated the offense EVERY TIME. Gray moved to this position when Carter was in, and carter played wing. When Goodson and Carter were in , Carter played wing......

Even when full court zone press, Goodson and Gray passed back and forth, but EVERYTIME Goodson went back and got the ball and initiated the offense.


To Tell me he is NOT initiating the offense is clearly telling me you have blinders on.

To suggest he is not making the "flashy" passes..I might suggest you listen to SG postgame show in which he clearly stated that he needs to tone down his flashy passes to cut down his turnovers.......

Goodson is a piece of the puzzle and his doing exactly what that particular PIECE is needed.....we have too many "scorers" for him to take opportunities away from them......All American nope, Critical Piece to our puzzle ABSOLUTELY

GrizZAG
12-01-2010, 04:34 PM
Would love to see a breakdown of missed shots from Sacre, etc. Seen a ton this year...Meech would certainly have a higher assist total.

Meech and analogies/comparisons to Jeter, Dilfer, Bird, Magic...this kid can't get a break!!

I have to think protecting the ball is his strength and it is valuable. Agree that feeds to Sacre are not getting desired results. Also our star Steven makes too many silly passes that are terrible.

For me, I haven't seen anyone else I trust to come up the floor with the ball that could not get picked off other than Meech. He has some great strengths and is improving. What else can you ask for of any player? Lay off the guy, gheesh!

SWZag
12-01-2010, 07:09 PM
in anticipation of this thread I charted the game last night.

Goodson made entry pass into Sacre 2 times that created free throws...GEE NO ASSIST but his passes garnered points for the team

Goodson made nice pass to Gray for open look 3 point shot, MISSED....Gee no assist but his pass garnered a nice open look for our shooter

Goodson made a nice lead pass to Gray on fastbreak, oopps gray dribbled, thus no assist to Goodson, BUT WE GOT POINTS as a team created by his push ahead pass

Goodson handled the ball entire time he was in and initiated the offense EVERY TIME. Gray moved to this position when Carter was in, and carter played wing. When Goodson and Carter were in , Carter played wing......

Even when full court zone press, Goodson and Gray passed back and forth, but EVERYTIME Goodson went back and got the ball and initiated the offense.


To Tell me he is NOT initiating the offense is clearly telling me you have blinders on.

To suggest he is not making the "flashy" passes..I might suggest you listen to SG postgame show in which he clearly stated that he needs to tone down his flashy passes to cut down his turnovers.......

Goodson is a piece of the puzzle and his doing exactly what that particular PIECE is needed.....we have too many "scorers" for him to take opportunities away from them......All American nope, Critical Piece to our puzzle ABSOLUTELY

Great post Hoopaholic!

Zag79
12-01-2010, 10:34 PM
Since we have many other players on the team that can score, I'd much rather have a point guard with a high assist-to-turnover ratio than one who tries to score himself. Point guards used to be responsible for getting the ball in play and into the middle. I believe the main point guard stat should be the assist-to-turnover ratio. Not points. That's why we have a "shooting" guard.

This. Great point, i fully agree. Since when is a pg only considered "good" when he shoots threes or scores a lot? If we have other main scorers/shooters (which we do, gray, Harris, sacre, etc), it is just fine to have a pg who's main goal is passing, ball handling, and defense. Meech brings the ball up pretty much every possession and to say otherwise is a blatant lie. To state his numbers are skewed for any reason is looking for a reason to knock him. For every reason he could have lower assist numbers he could easily have higher stats too. Lizf states it best, meech has a better assist to turnover ratio than many of our great zag guards did. Hoopaholics post was all you need to read to understand why meech is playing so well. No one on this board is arguing he's the next dickau or an all american, but to act like he isn't playing at a level that helps us win is down right humorous. Keep the turnovers to a minimum, keep the assists up, play good defense, and get some buckets when you can. If #3 does this he will be a real positive for us this season, and some people on here will be stuffed full of crow. :D

WallaWallaZag
12-01-2010, 11:53 PM
Meech has certainly improved, and the a/to numbers, as well as the way his jumper looks, show that. But if you break the numbers down by quality opposition (KS, SDS, Mar.)/weak oppositionEWU,IUPUI,Southern), it gives some validity to what Dan is saying.

V. weak teams, Meech has 14a/4to (4.7 apg, 3.5 a/to). V. good teams, 8/1 (2.7 apg, 8/1 ratio). In March, v. quality opposition, 2.7 apg from the pg won't get it done. The fact that he has only one to in those games is good on the surface, but with the low asst #'s, it lends credence to the idea that he's not acting as a playmaker enough in big games. Bird and Magic both led the NBA in turnovers if memory serves. Sometimes high risk equals high reward.

Another fact to be concerned about, which correlates to the above: v. weak comp, Gray is 13-20 from 3 (65%); v. strong comp, he's 8/26 (31%). And minus the 5/11 v. Marquette, it's 20% (3/15 total v. KSU, SDS). It's fairly apparent that Gray isn't getting good looks against good comp, and is having to carry a too much of the playmaking load.

won't basically every team and individual statistic go down on average when playing against good teams??? usually good teams play better defense and as such your stats will suffer...i've got to believe there are very few players out there who have better stats against better teams than they do against bad teams.

TerpZag
12-02-2010, 01:32 AM
Meech…

as of 11/28/2010... ranked 11th in the country in Assist to TO ratio per the NCAA.

Just sayin'....


LIZF, was it this excerpt of the assists by Gonzaga’s starting point guard in Gonzaga’s last game that gave rise to your latest round of whining and kvetching posts in this thread regarding your opinion of the current starting point guard for Gonzaga?


GOOD! 3 PTR by Gray, Steven 18:48 5-2 H 3
ASSIST by Goodson, Demetri

GOOD! 3 PTR by Gray, Steven 15:58 14-5 H 9
ASSIST by Goodson, Demetri


GOOD! LAYUP by Sacre, Robert [PNT] 03:37 40-16 H 24
ASSIST by Goodson, Demetri


GOOD! JUMPER by Olynyk, Kelly 19:23 51-20 H 31
ASSIST by Goodson, Demetri


GOOD! LAYUP by Sacre, Robert [FB/PNT] 18:54 53-20 H 33
ASSIST by Goodson, Demetri


GOOD! 3 PTR by MOENNINGHOFF, Mathis 15:13 57-26 H 31
ASSIST by Goodson, Demetri





.....Would you like more information to show you how you are wrong? Fact of the matter is that you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever to substantiate your claims... so in the end it comes down to the fact that you just plain don't like him.

LIZF, this highlighted portion of your subsequent reply is just a juvenile retort and uncalled for.

Individuals are entitled to their opinion of what they perceive as the necessary skills and talents of a successful point guard just as you are. You seem to be content that current Gonzaga starting point guard stands on the periphery of the offense and just passes the ball for the most part to another teammate also standing on the periphery of the offense.

Believe it or not there are many of individuals who don’t agree with that position and have many other expectations of what a starting point guard on successful college basketball team should be capable of doing including those that operated at the point guard position in the past.

For example, I can think of Steve Blake…Chris Paul…Chris Corchiani…Mark Jackson…George Leftwich…Brad Davis…Wali Jones…Phil Ford…John Duren…Michael Adams…Stuart Granger…Sherman Douglas…Sidney Lowe…Frank Alagia…John Lucas…Fran Dunphy…Keith Gatlin…Jeff Neuman…Monte Towe…and even Gary Williams, all of whom were more than adequate starting point guards for their college team and all of whom did not play their point guard position in the same manner as the current Gonzaga starting point guard.

So if someone has different expectations than you are they automatically wrong? There are some individuals on this board who have been following college basketball for longer than you have been alive and have seen a wide variety of point guard talent. Doesn’t that count for something?

I am sure it if frustrating to you that you can’t at times either adequately explain or support your position in the current matter to everyone’s satisfaction.

But did you have to resort to this type juvenile response? And to paraphrase yourself, the fact of the matter is that you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever to substantiate your statement regarding this other poster. Do you?

LIZF, has anyone who disagreed with your position regarding the current Gonzaga starting point guard ever accused you of “disliking” Gonzaga basketball or “disliking” college basketball based on your personal opinion on this matter?

So why did you resort to this juvenile response of accusing another person of disliking a particular Gonzaga player? Personally, I think this young person deserves an apology and a retraction of your accusation. Just agree to disagree.

What was the whole purpose of your original post in this thread in the first place? Did you really think that everyone would agree with your position?

jazzdelmar
12-02-2010, 05:30 AM
TerpZag, Frankie Alagia, Honeybear Leftwich? We go waaaay back, my friend. Barry Kramer?

Krobbins34
12-02-2010, 06:05 AM
Mike Goodson is helping me win my Fantasy football league!

Just thought I would change up this Meech thread a little.
I have enjoyed watching Meech play this year, I think he has improved a lot and will continue to improve.

On a side note - I would think that meech and Mike will get to see each other play this weekend. With Mike and Carolina playing the Seahawks on Sunday and Meech and the Zags playing in Seattle on Saturday.

kitzbuel
12-02-2010, 07:18 AM
Mike Goodson is helping me win my Fantasy football league!

Just thought I would change up this Meech thread a little.
I have enjoyed watching Meech play this year, I think he has improved a lot and will continue to improve.

On a side note - I would think that meech and Mike will get to see each other play this weekend. With Mike and Carolina playing the Seahawks on Sunday and Meech and the Zags playing in Seattle on Saturday.

Are you playing him this week?

sonuvazag
12-02-2010, 07:53 AM
Mike Goodson is helping me win my Fantasy football league!

Just thought I would change up this Meech thread a little.
I have enjoyed watching Meech play this year, I think he has improved a lot and will continue to improve.

On a side note - I would think that meech and Mike will get to see each other play this weekend. With Mike and Carolina playing the Seahawks on Sunday and Meech and the Zags playing in Seattle on Saturday.
Good post. I hadn't thought of that.

I picked up Mike based on advice I received on these boards. I also would like to know if I should start him.

I have enjoyed watching Meech this year too.

SWZag
12-02-2010, 08:16 AM
Mike Goodson is helping me win my Fantasy football league!

Just thought I would change up this Meech thread a little.
I have enjoyed watching Meech play this year, I think he has improved a lot and will continue to improve.

On a side note - I would think that meech and Mike will get to see each other play this weekend. With Mike and Carolina playing the Seahawks on Sunday and Meech and the Zags playing in Seattle on Saturday.

I wouldn't play Mike, he doesn't have enough touchdowns per carry and he's played soft competition. He only runs well when he's playing against weak defenses. He doesn't average nearly enough yards per carry. He should at least be getting 10+ yards per run. Anything less makes him awful! Why is he even in the Pros?


*Total Sarcasm :)

Krobbins34
12-02-2010, 09:01 AM
Are you playing him this week?

Based on his match up ("The Seahawks") I think so!

Krobbins34
12-02-2010, 09:03 AM
I wouldn't play Mike, he doesn't have enough touchdowns per carry and he's played soft competition. He only runs well when he's playing against weak defenses. He doesn't average nearly enough yards per carry. He should at least be getting 10+ yards per run. Anything less makes him awful! Why is he even in the Pros?


*Total Sarcasm :)

Now that's funny!

TerpZag
12-02-2010, 09:37 AM
TerpZag, Frankie Alagia, Honeybear Leftwich? We go waaaay back, my friend. Barry Kramer?

Barry Kramer, sure, NYU...

I remember seeing Barry Kramer play in the East Regionals in both 1962 and '63. I think NYU and St. Joe's played in both years. The first year, Villanova and Wake Forest played in the Regional bracket and the next year Duke and West Virginia were in the bracket. Those teams had lots of great individual performances. During that time, they played consolation games which allowed you to see the great players at least twice.

I first got to see George Leftwich when he played with Archbishop Carroll in high school. He was one of the best players on one of the best high school teams that I ever saw. Too bad injuries caught up with him in college. I think he is now the AD at Archbishop Carroll in DC.