PDA

View Full Version : Why Didn't Harris Play?



Martin Centre Mad Man
12-01-2010, 06:04 AM
I did not catch last night's game and just checked the box score. I noticed that Harris did not play.

Is this due to an injury? If so, when is he likely to return?

RenoZag
12-01-2010, 06:09 AM
During the broadcast, the announcers said Harris was held out due to his Achilles tendon injury. They also mentioned he has had shoulder issues, both items are not new news.

One assumes he was held out to give him needed recovery time in advance of the BIS game on Saturday and there was no need to play him against the Eagles.

GoZags
12-01-2010, 06:40 AM
Elias hasn't practiced since returning from Kansas City. The achilles tendon is still very, very sore.

gamagin
12-01-2010, 06:51 AM
Elias hasn't practiced since returning from Kansas City. The achilles tendon is still very, very sore.

the problem was his tendon was too stiff and he couldn't get it loosened enough to play.

Craig added that with 3 games in 5 days recently, there also wasn't time to get into the training table or get some therapy, so things hadn't improved and EH also hadn't been able to practice with his teammates.

and next up are Illinois, WSU and Notre Dame in the next 11 days.

MickMick
12-01-2010, 07:01 AM
It is looking more and more like Harris could stay another year.

Pargo the Destroyer
12-01-2010, 07:06 AM
Meehan tweeted that he is having another MRI today on the achilles

jazzdelmar
12-01-2010, 07:07 AM
It is looking more and more like Harris could stay another year.



agree, mm. maybe all 4....then europe....not an nba player right now

Gufan
12-01-2010, 07:15 AM
agree, mm. maybe all 4....then europe....not an nba player right now

Jazz, was Austin an NBA player when he got drafted? Just curious, because I thought you had similar thoughts of him. Looks like the people who actually matter in the decision (NBA GM's) seem to have a different outlook on who is and who isn't an NBA PROSPECT. Just sayin

kitzbuel
12-01-2010, 07:37 AM
Yes, Jazz, it is true that a hobbled, injured Elias is not an NBA player. However, a healthy Elias has as much potential as he had last year.

Hopefully it is still just tendonitis and hasn't turned into a rupture with the lack of rest.

FlyZag
12-01-2010, 08:33 AM
agree, mm. maybe all 4....then europe....not an nba player right now

Jazz, While I disagree with your assessment of Keegan. I wholeheartedly agree with you on Harris. Elias is a GREAT college player and potential pro in Europe. However, it has been shown time and time again that when Elias goes against high level (NBA type) competition, he fades. See, Memphis, Duke, Syracuse, San Diego State and Kansas State games. We all know he is undersized and right now underskilled at the next level. The good news is that he's got some time to improve those skills to make himself more appealing. But it is my belief based on what we've seen so far that if John Bryant, Omar Samhan, Dior Lowhorn, Josh Heytvelt, Micah Downs, Jeremy Pargo, Matt Bouldin, Casey Calvary, etc. etc. etc didn't get drafted... I honestly can't see Elias getting drafted either.

ridgebackzag
12-01-2010, 09:58 AM
It is looking more and more like Harris could stay another year.

Being hindered by an injury hasn't stopped players from going to the NBA in the past, from any program. It depends on what kind of competitor EH is. If he doesn't mind sitting on the bench until he hones his skills (ie Daye), he'll go NBA.

BobZag
12-01-2010, 10:16 AM
Let's hope the MRI today reveals nothing more than a minor bruise or something. Without Elias, I have doubts we have enough horses to go with Illinois.

BroncoZAG615
12-01-2010, 10:23 AM
Jazz, While I disagree with your assessment of Keegan. I wholeheartedly agree with you on Harris. Elias is a GREAT college player and potential pro in Europe. However, it has been shown time and time again that when Elias goes against high level (NBA type) competition, he fades. See, Memphis, Duke, Syracuse, San Diego State and Kansas State games. We all know he is undersized and right now underskilled at the next level. The good news is that he's got some time to improve those skills to make himself more appealing. But it is my belief based on what we've seen so far that if John Bryant, Omar Samhan, Dior Lowhorn, Josh Heytvelt, Micah Downs, Jeremy Pargo, Matt Bouldin, Casey Calvary, etc. etc. etc didn't get drafted... I honestly can't see Elias getting drafted either.

Were games against Illinois and Michigan State last year (both on the road) not against high level comp? Strange, because I remember Elias carrying Gonzaga.

I truly have no idea about Elias' NBA prospects, but let's be a bit more clear when we include a small sample from last year and two games this year when he obviously has not been 100%.

gamagin
12-01-2010, 11:17 AM
Were games against Illinois and Michigan State last year (both on the road) not against high level comp? Strange, because I remember Elias carrying Gonzaga.

I truly have no idea about Elias' NBA prospects, but let's be a bit more clear when we include a small sample from last year and two games this year when he obviously has not been 100%.

It seems to me the 3 or so who think EH is a 1st round draft pick and the 3 or so who think otherwise, tend to raise these faux issues every time EH does well or poorly in a game.

Now it's affecting the chat about a stiff achilles heel.

It seems to be an extension of the ongoing, never-ending, anal(ysis)/takes on all things Meech.

Perhaps those six religious, zealous, boring, posters could just get a room at the Big6 (they even have their own hotel!) and get over their pundit wannabe mancrushes on themselves, their superior analyses, and just let these athletes develop. As they will, anyway.

Or advance, as they will, or won't, in the context of the here and now, the season underway, instead of that other (pro) world and their possibilities of making it there 1-2-3 years hence.

Otherwise, the prattle will continue until one or all of the six geniuses die. And no one else will give a sh!t either way by then. I posit most don't give a sh!t now. Or ever did.

The process of watching these superb athletes grow & prosper, along with the the school, the program and all who are a part of it, creates all the hope and joy this small, proud school can manage year after year.

Making it beyond that for individual stars is just icing on the cake and as everyone knows, the icing rightly goes on last, not while we're still working on the recipe.

CDC84
12-01-2010, 11:19 AM
I think even the biggest critics of Elias and his NBA future would have to admit that at no point did Pargo, Downs, Big Omar, John Bryant, etc., attract the kind of NBA interest that Harris has. Despite his injuries and his so so play toward the end of last season, draftexpress.com still has him going at 22 in the 1st round of the 2011 draft (as of 11/26/2010). He would have to regress a hell of a lot to not be taken anywhere in the draft.

FlyZag
12-01-2010, 11:29 AM
Were games against Illinois and Michigan State last year (both on the road) not against high level comp? Strange, because I remember Elias carrying Gonzaga.


Well, Elias had a good game against Illinois. However, remember Illinois was a non-tournament team and finished mid pack in the Big 10. They also had a very young team with all starters returning this year. And their strength is in the back court.

Against Michigan State Elias shot 6-16 (37.5%) from the field, and 4-7 from the FT line (57%) he had 4 pf and 1ast vs 2 TO. And again Michigan States strength is in the back court.

I don't believe any front court player for either team (Illinois, M. st.) will play in the NBA. However, Syracuse, Duke, Memphis, San Diego State I believe they already have or will soon. And that was my point. Against the competition he would potentially see in the NBA he struggles. Against lesser competition he thrives. And there is NOTHING wrong with that. Again, I think he is an awesome player. Just like Omar, John Bryant and Calvary dominated the WCC and didn't get drafted... It's my opinion that Elias will follow the same fate.

FlyZag
12-01-2010, 11:35 AM
[QUOTE=CDC84;609783]I think even the biggest critics of Elias and his NBA future would have to admit that at no point did Pargo, Downs, Big Omar, John Bryant, etc., attract the kind of NBA interest that Harris has. Despite his injuries and his so so play toward the end of last season, draftexpress.com still has him going at 22 in the 1st round of the 2011 draft (as of 11/26/2010). He would have to regress a hell of a lot to not be taken anywhere in the draft.[/QUOTE

Respectfully disagree on the NBA interest of said players. Elias may have garnered NBA interest earlier in his career that the other players... but I remember quite well all of the NBA talk of those other players.

I'm curious, where did draft express have Josh H going?

BroncoZAG615
12-01-2010, 11:41 AM
Well, Elias had a good game against Illinois. However, remember Illinois was a non-tournament team and finished mid pack in the Big 10. They also had a very young team with all starters returning this year. And their strength is in the back court.

Against Michigan State Elias shot 6-16 (37.5%) from the field, and 4-7 from the FT line (57%) he had 4 pf and 1ast vs 2 TO. And again Michigan States strength is in the back court.

I don't believe any front court player for either team (Illinois, M. st.) will play in the NBA. However, Syracuse, Duke, Memphis, San Diego State I believe they already have or will soon. And that was my point. Against the competition he would potentially see in the NBA he struggles. Against lesser competition he thrives. And there is NOTHING wrong with that. Again, I think he is an awesome player. Just like Omar, John Bryant and Calvary dominated the WCC and didn't get drafted... It's my opinion that Elias will follow the same fate.

I agree with you on Duke and Syracuse. Those were poor games for Elias...and two of Gonzaga's worst performances in recent memory. Memphis, I'll throw out. Elias didn't go against any NBA players on that team last year. I'd even say Illinois front court is better than theirs.

What I'm saying is that your sample size is extraordinarily small to be making these statements about Elias. The fact of the matter is that he was a shell of himself against San Diego State and Kansas State, and to a point, Marquette.

There is a reason why he has been getting so much hype from people who know the NBA draft. Has some dwindled? Of course. It has been an injury filled year for Elias. But I feel like all this talk of him now being a four year player (some honestly seem to describe him as a role player) and maybe a future in Europe is, to me, premature to say the least.

MDABE80
12-01-2010, 11:52 AM
Among the better things about Elias is that he MUST be guarded. He can put up 20 pts at any time. Other teams have to use 1 or 2 of their best defenders. This opens things up for everyone else. Last year Meech didn't count..he does this year.
Rob, KO and Sam can and will put up points near the bucket so having Harris on the floor matters a lot.

This team, with Steven on all cylinders is still a very scary team. Thus far, the performances have been a bit uneven...moreso given the uncertain status of Elias. Hard to get settled and hunkered down with this level of uncertainty. He makes everyone that much better. We need him healthy..if not now..later but we do need him working over other teams or we come up a bit "hollow".

CDC84
12-01-2010, 02:17 PM
I'm curious, where did draft express have Josh H going?

#41 in the second round on the final predraft board.

The highest I ever saw Josh on the draft boards throughout his career was as a back end first round pick. Pargo? Nbadraft.net once had him as a late first rounder. I think he lasted for a week or two. Never heard of Big Omar or John Bryant being discussed as legit NBA guys. None of these guys ever got as high as Elias is on the draft board even right now.

The NBA just doesn't pick players based on their numbers against elite competition. Especially against small sample sizes. If that were the case, Paul Millsap would be rebounding on the playgrounds of Monroe, Louisiana right now.

I'm in total agreement that Elias has weaknesses in his game that he needs to sort out. And I do feel his size in relation to his natural position will hurt his stock. But I still think it's way too early to write him off as a prospect. Especially when he's been injured.

theothegreat21
12-01-2010, 02:33 PM
Jazz, While I disagree with your assessment of Keegan. I wholeheartedly agree with you on Harris. Elias is a GREAT college player and potential pro in Europe. However, it has been shown time and time again that when Elias goes against high level (NBA type) competition, he fades. See, Memphis, Duke, Syracuse, San Diego State and Kansas State games. We all know he is undersized and right now underskilled at the next level. The good news is that he's got some time to improve those skills to make himself more appealing. But it is my belief based on what we've seen so far that if John Bryant, Omar Samhan, Dior Lowhorn, Josh Heytvelt, Micah Downs, Jeremy Pargo, Matt Bouldin, Casey Calvary, etc. etc. etc didn't get drafted... I honestly can't see Elias getting drafted either.

I'm no genius, but I thought Elias scoring 24 points and grabbing 8 rebounds against Syracuse was pretty good. Am I wrong?

FlyZag
12-01-2010, 03:13 PM
I'm no genius, but I thought Elias scoring 24 points and grabbing 8 rebounds against Syracuse was pretty good. Am I wrong?

There are two ends of the court. On the other side he allowed his player to set a career high with 31pts. Wes Johnson was 11 for 16 from the field and 4-6 from 3 he also grabbed 14 rebounds.

Elias was clearly outplayed by his man. And that was my point. When Elias goes against NBA type players he struggles. Wes Johnson was drafted #4 overall and made Elias look silly at times defensively. Oh, Elias also had 4 turnovers to zero assists. He shot 61% from the stripe and 0% from 3. He also played 31 minutes while only being whistled for one foul (that shows not being aggressive on defense).

Again let me reiterate. I LOVE ELIAS as a player. I love him as a zag. I just think at times we get a little too excited with NBA hype and rose colored glasses. This board erupts with early exit to the NBA way too often and with way too many players. Just this summer there were posts on this board suggesting Sacre, Olynyk and Elias would all leave EARLY to the NBA. I just don't see it. I'm sorry for being a Debbie Downer and peeing on everyone's Cheerio's but I'm just a realist at heart. Although, I'll be the first to admit that I thought Austin Daye was too soft and would never be a early entry player. I was wrong. AD is playing great. I hope these young men prove me wrong. I promise you I would be so very happy for them if they did.

theothegreat21
12-01-2010, 03:16 PM
There are two ends of the court. On the other side he allowed his player to set a career high with 31pts. Wes Johnson was 11 for 16 from the field and 4-6 from 3 he also grabbed 14 rebounds.

Elias was clearly outplayed by his man. And that was my point. When Elias goes against NBA type players he struggles. Wes Johnson was drafted #4 overall and made Elias look silly at times defensively. Oh, Elias also had 4 turnovers to zero assists. He shot 61% from the stripe and 0% from 3. He also played 31 minutes while only being whistled for one foul (that shows not being aggressive on defense).

Again let me reiterate. I LOVE ELIAS as a player. I love him as a zag. I just think at times we get a little too excited with NBA hype and rose colored glasses. This board erupts with early exit to the NBA way too often and with way too many players. Just this summer there were posts on this board suggesting Sacre, Olynyk and Elias would all leave EARLY to the NBA. I just don't see it. I'm sorry for being a Debbie Downer and peeing on everyone's Cheerio's but I'm just a realist at heart. Although, I'll be the first to admit that I thought Austin Daye was too soft and would never be a early entry player. I was wrong. AD is playing great. I hope these young men prove me wrong. I promise you I would be so very happy for them if they did.

Now I may be crazy again....but is it Elias' fault if a guy scores 31 points against a team playing 2-3 zone over half the game?

Sorry, I had to add to this post because I actually read your full post and decided that more than one sentence was needed to address this. Your reasoning for Elias not being an NBA player, at least according to this specific post, is because a guy that was selected No. 4 in the draft scored 31 points against him (I will go ahead and ignore the fact that the team played a zone nearly the entire the game for the sake of this argument). If this is the case, then how is Wes Johnson an NBA player? I mean, he gave up 24 points to Elias Harris. Your argument doesn't work, especially because the NBA is a league driven by guys who can put the ball in the basket, which is precisely what Elias does.

BobZag
12-01-2010, 03:30 PM
I don't care much about his draft status. I just want that MRI to show he's good-to-go for the Zags Saturday and beyond. With a little luck, perhaps Meehan can find out the results soon. Very soon. Like today.

What took so long to get this MRI taken, anyway? The SDSU game was two weeks ago! We're talking about an Achilles tendon that popped and hobbled him. If it's my show, I have Elias in the tube the next day. Not a C-Scan, not X-Rays, but a MRI.

FlyZag
12-01-2010, 04:05 PM
Now I may be crazy again....but is it Elias' fault if a guy scores 31 points against a team playing 2-3 zone over half the game?

Sorry, I had to add to this post because I actually read your full post and decided that more than one sentence was needed to address this. Your reasoning for Elias not being an NBA player, at least according to this specific post, is because a guy that was selected No. 4 in the draft scored 31 points against him (I will go ahead and ignore the fact that the team played a zone nearly the entire the game for the sake of this argument). If this is the case, then how is Wes Johnson an NBA player? I mean, he gave up 24 points to Elias Harris. Your argument doesn't work, especially because the NBA is a league driven by guys who can put the ball in the basket, which is precisely what Elias does.

I see the point you are trying to make. I also understand that there are switches on screens and defense is a TEAM effort. That said, Zone or not, after watching the Syracuse game last March, I was disappointed with his effort on Defense. I know I am not the only person who felt that way.

All that said, please look at all of my posts regarding Elias vs. NBA competition. It's not just Syracuse. It is my opinion that he struggles against long athletic NBA type players. I respect that I am the minority on this as well as many of my other posts. So please forgive me for my contrarian (made that word up) view.

It was pointed out earlier that I used a small sample to skew his poor games. I merely tried to pick the games where I felt he faced NBA type talent. Instead of just telling me I'm wrong, please show me some examples where he faced NBA level talent and he performed well. Wake? Cincinnati? Wisconsin? Duke? Oklahoma? Illinois? Memphis? Syracuse? SD St? Kansas State? Please show me! Syracuse may be the best example. And I don't think there are many people who watched that game walking away saying that EH looked dominating and should leave early for the next level. I give him credit for some put backs on the offensive glass and 24 and 8 looks good. But there is more to the game... he accounted for 36% of the teams turnovers (4/11 most on team), had zero assists, no blocks, 0% from 3 (0/1), 61% from the foul line and played some really good matador defense. All in a blow out loss.

I'm not trying to be a jerk or rip the kid apart. He seems like a good teammate, good student and a great ZAG. But please don't try and convince me that based off of what we've seen thus far in his short career he should leave early for the NBA.

theothegreat21
12-01-2010, 04:21 PM
I see the point you are trying to make. I also understand that there are switches on screens and defense is a TEAM effort. That said, Zone or not, after watching the Syracuse game last March, I was disappointed with his effort on Defense. I know I am not the only person who felt that way.

All that said, please look at all of my posts regarding Elias vs. NBA competition. It's not just Syracuse. It is my opinion that he struggles against long athletic NBA type players. I respect that I am the minority on this as well as many of my other posts. So please forgive me for my contrarian (made that word up) view.

It was pointed out earlier that I used a small sample to skew his poor games. I merely tried to pick the games where I felt he faced NBA type talent. Instead of just telling me I'm wrong, please show me some examples where he faced NBA level talent and he performed well. Wake? Cincinnati? Wisconsin? Duke? Oklahoma? Illinois? Memphis? Syracuse? SD St? Kansas State? Please show me! Syracuse may be the best example. And I don't think there are many people who watched that game walking away saying that EH looked dominating and should leave early for the next level. I give him credit for some put backs on the offensive glass and 24 and 8 looks good. But there is more to the game... he accounted for 36% of the teams turnovers (4/11 most on team), had zero assists, no blocks, 0% from 3 (0/1), 61% from the foul line and played some really good matador defense. All in a blow out loss.

I'm not trying to be a jerk or rip the kid apart. He seems like a good teammate, good student and a great ZAG. But please don't try and convince me that based off of what we've seen thus far in his short career he should leave early for the NBA.

I'm not sure what you would classify as performing well, but to me, the following are pretty impressive for a freshman who was adjusting to a different culture and completely different system.

Michigan St.- 17 pts and 9 boards

Wisconsin- 12 pts and 8 boards

Cincinnati- 13 pts and 7 rebounds

Washington St.- 24 pts and 12 boards

Oklahoma- 15 pts and 9 boards

Illinois- 19 points and 16 rebounds

Two St. Mary's games during the regular season- 50 points and 17 rebounds

It sure seems to me that Duke and Memphis are the outliers rather than the norm.

Ezag
12-01-2010, 04:26 PM
Close the thread, case rested

EuroZag2010
12-01-2010, 04:31 PM
Close the thread, case rested

+10

Gufan
12-01-2010, 04:35 PM
But please don't try and convince me that based off of what we've seen thus far in his short career he should leave early for the NBA.

Luckily he doesn't need to convince you. Keep in mind if GM's drafted on college production, a huge number of NBA players wouldn't have been drafted. UCLA's Westbrook or Rajon Rondo certainly didn't convince the average fan that they would be All Star caliber point guards (especially since Westbrook didn't even play the position and rondo couldn't shoot) based on college production. However, people much better at evaluating talent than we are decided otherwise and it worked out great. Dickau had much better "stats," why isn't he an all star?

Whether he should leave for the NBA is for none of us to decide, nor should it matter. That's his decision. Could he and get drafted, absolutely. If it happens after this year, great. If not until the next, then we get another year to watch a great kid and player in a Zags uniform. Win win.

FlyZag
12-01-2010, 04:46 PM
I'm not sure what you would classify as performing well, but to me, the following are pretty impressive for a freshman who was adjusting to a different culture and completely different system.


I agree completely. Those are impressive numbers for a freshman. But the question was... are they "leave early for the nba" performances? Isn't that the debate? Maybe they are. What do I know. I merely was trying to use reasoning, logic and critical thinking to stimulate conversation regarding said topic. I can see that falls outside the scope of some posters on this board. I'll go back to lurking and keep my crazy thoughts to myself. I would hate to taint the minds of the lemmings blindly marching to the beat of the kool-aid drinking band. Forgive me... carry on..

Martin Centre Mad Man
12-01-2010, 05:17 PM
I agree completely. Those are impressive numbers for a freshman. But the question was... are they "leave early for the nba" performances?

Those are, "Please stay at Gonzaga and continue to make those numbers," numbers.

switchboard
12-01-2010, 11:58 PM
I can't believe a thread about Elias' possible injury was hijacked and turned into an NBA draft prospect thread. Can you please create a new thread about this so that those of us that are concerned about the injury can follow up with it as this thread intended?

That being said, any word on that MRI?

EuroZag2010
12-02-2010, 01:02 AM
I can't believe a thread about Elias' possible injury was hijacked and turned into an NBA draft prospect thread. Can you please create a new thread about this so that those of us that are concerned about the injury can follow up with it as this thread intended?

That being said, any word on that MRI?

Thank you !!! Well said.

RenoZag
12-02-2010, 04:27 AM
Wow, a thread that wanders. . .what a shock.

sonuvazag
12-02-2010, 08:37 AM
Wow, a thread that wanders. . .what a shock.
Go to post 50 on any thread in Men's Basketball and it will be discussing Meech. Seriously, even threads created before he played at GU. :p

zagfaninmt
12-02-2010, 09:18 AM
Any word on the MRI?

zagzilla
12-02-2010, 09:32 AM
Here's hoping for good news. If, in fact, he aggravated it by not giving it enough rest and, as a result, will miss more time, then the training staff will have to answer some hard questions.

Hoping I see him on the floor Saturday and that he's healthy enough to lead us to a big time win.

ZZ

CDC84
12-02-2010, 09:53 AM
Still no word on the MRI as of 9:52am PT.