Thoughts and Impressions of GU vs SOU

[Reborn]

It sure was nice seeing the Zags play. It's been too long. I think they played really well considering our All-American, Elias Harris, sat out. I really liked the team hustle. My first impression is ,"Wow! These guys really put it all out there on the floor. Even for an exhibition game." Even Sacre was diving for a loose ball. The Defense was intense for an exhibition game, and I liked it. Steven was right. The Zags are better on defense.

I thought Sam Dower looked GREAT. He's the kind of post player (PF in my opinion) that I have hoped we get for a long, long time. As Mark Few said, "Sam is a scorer." And he sure is. And he's bulked up. Sam is going to be soooooo good as a Zag. I don't know if he's going to last 4 years though. He really has great hands, and can catch anything thrown at him. And he has such a soft touch for a big guy. I'm excited about Sam Dower.

Steven looked awesome too. 5 steals. Wow. I don't think Steven ever broke a sweat.

Olynyk showed some good moves down in the low post. It was nice to see his improvement. He was 5-5 in the low post. His outside shooting still looked pretty bad though. I was disappointed to see that.


The bad news I think is that our 3 pt shooting stunk. 26%. It was worse then last year. I am very disappointed in all those shooters that Few went out to get. That's got to be a concern. Kelly's 3 pt shooting last night looked exactly like last year, aweful.

I was also disappointed in Manny Arop. He seemed fairly disinterested out there most of the time to me. I was hoping that he'd step up and try to become a scorer, but I didn't see it last night. He definitely won't be a starter based on that performance. Im hoping he's a guy that plays at the level of competition. We'll find out soon enough. One thing I've always liked about him, which held up last night, is that he doesn't turn the ball over. I see his role pretty much like last year, a very solid guy coming in off the bench.

I was also disappointed in Carter's offensive game. I feel we need some scoring from him, and he didn't show that last night. He seems to be very unsure of his role. I did like his defense and thats important. And he's not a gunner like our back up pg last year...However, we still need more offense from him if we are to be successful. And especially from the 3 pt line. He was 1-3, which is not good imo.

Someone mentioned in one of the threads that the team probably wouldn't have looked any better with Harris in. That's a joke. Harris is an All American candidate. I think Harris would have ripped Southern Oregon apart. Put in Arris for Hart, and you say Gonzaga wouldn't have looked better? Ha ha ha. Harris is like Dower. He's a scorer, and has a scorer's mentality. And he can DUNK! i DID NOT SEE the things others saw this summer in Hart. I don't expect him to have any more of a role on this team than he had last year.

Stockton looked good at the point at times, but 5 turnovers is not GOOD folks. I wasn't impressed. And really is not a shooter/scorer. He does hustle, but I think everyone on the team does this year.

I don't see many minutes for the incoming class of freshmen. I think Monningoff is the only one who will play. And not a lot.

I hope Harris plays in the next game. I'd like to see how much better we look with him. It's pretty easy to say that we will look A LOT BETTER with him.

[jazzdelmar]

imo

dower a revelation. 4 more years!!! meech a tad better. sacre is ready as is gray. kelly put up numbers but didnt blow me away. carter disappointing; i was hoping for a messiah. manny a major disappointment. whats up w him? frosh neither good or bad. i wd love to love stocks, but....lotta work to do.

[seasontixholder]

I wouldn't write off the 3 pt shooting just yet. It was early November ball, and the first few shots (and free throws) by the younger guys were comical because they were so tight. When they settled down, there were better strokes.

Monninghoff and Carter played better as the game progressed. Except for a few ill-advised reachins, MM played solidly (one of the reachins was right in front of me, and his quick hands made a clean play imo, ref thought otherwise). His free throws were like those of a classic shooter's, pretty. MM mobility good. Both of the guys are still struggling to absorb the plays on offense, so there will be better %s once the confidence and relaxation creep in. Carter was more natural on defense. On offense, the thinking made him look a little klunkier than he will be.

Kelly is still launching without confidence from the 3pt line, and at bad spots on the clock. His free throw shooting isn't that great. He'll get better with time, although his stroke isn't like Heytvelt's, that's for sure. The rest of his game is really good, O and D. Decent rebounding.

[fedwayzag]

I really liked both Mathis'. You can see MM is a baller and will get better and better during the season. Keita really impressed me. Very good on ball defender. Up in the guys face. Hope to see that kind of defense against D1 talent. He is also aggressive on offense also.

I liked what I saw in Meech last night. Played w/i himself and looked like he could run the point. Interesting note from Few that he would see more reps at the point beginning in the next practice. Guess it means he has not been seeing much time at the point up to now.

While Carter and Arop did not set the world on fire you can see they have it and will be fine. Probably better then fine.

Dower was impressive. Especially the base line jumper from the right side. Very smooth.

[Team Oosik]

Dower almost snagged a laser pass with one hand. The ball seemed to stick-like he had "magnet hands". It looked very smooth and natural. By comparison, Sacre had a few passes that seemed to bounce of his hands (hard to tell watching it online).
I would rather see Dower play and continue to develop. Give Elias plenty of time to heal...for however many games. All of November if need be.
I believe the Zags can take a couple of the big OOC games w/o Elias. The nice thing about the sked this yr, there are good opportunities to get qual wins mid and late season. Wait for Elias to get 100% healthy. If you get those big qual wins early on, but lose your superstar come tourney time (or his effectiveness), you've killed your chances at making a run.

[Baldwinzag]

I would rather see Dower play and continue to develop. Give Elias plenty of time to heal...for however many games. All of November if need be.

I believe the Zags can take a couple of the big OOC games w/o Elias. The nice thing about the sked this yr, there are good opportunities to get qual wins mid and late season. Wait for Elias to get 100% healthy. If you get those big qual wins early on, but lose your superstar come tourney time (or his effectiveness), you've killed your chances at making a run.

I'm on board with this idea. Plus, if we do take a couple unexpected lumps in November sans Elias the NCAA Committee would take his injury into account come Tourney selection time. In addition, every headline in the Country would read, "Zags drop game BUT w/o All-American candidate, Elias Harris" etc etc. Also, shoulder injuries should not be taken lightly, especially in basketball. Considering the shoulder joint is the only joint in the body held solely in place by ligaments and muscle(unlike ankle/hip/elbow/which is stabilized by bone capsule as well) the muscles/ligaments need time to calm down and properly hold everything in place. Even when the shoulder "feels" OK, its still loose as a goose. Take it easy E.

[MickMick]

First game of the season with a lot of experimentation. You can only look at individual progress as opposed to team concepts in this one. Every team in the country looks a little rough around the edges this time of year. They likely don't even have most of their plays and defensive sets in yet.

I was the one that said the game would have looked similar with Harris in there. He would have had a few patented "wow" moments, but see the previous paragraph on why I stand by the statement.

For me, the three most encouraging things I saw.

1) Meech looks much, much better with the ball in his hands
2) Dower looks like a dependable inside scorer. I'm talking "Batista like" dependable.
3) Gray's defense is in midseason form.


Put Dower and Harris in the game at the same time and you have the best pair of garbage men I have seen in a long, long time. Throw Arop's knack for rebounding in there and all I can say is that our perimeter shooters should not be afraid to take open looks. The light cannot be greener for Gray to let em fly. I also see many fast break opportunitys on the defensive end.

Speaking of Manny, I don't take much from this game with respect to Manny. He is simply too good of a rebounder to discount. He also has decent range from an offensive standpoint.
There will be a game (sooner rather than later) where we are raving about him. Book it.

[zag67]

Here goes for IMO.
1. Dower looked great. moves well without the ball. Active at both ends of the court (I really liked his one offensive rebound).
2. Both MMs look like they have alot to learn, but alot to offer. They both hustle and look good at the defensive end of the court.
3. Carter showed more than I thought he would at the defensive end and that shows that this could be a great find. I think that on the offensive end all of the new players looked tenative and did not look comfortable. This will change as the year goes on and I think he will really contribute. Even on the one drive that he missed, he showed explosion to the basket.
4. Steven showed leadership qualities and I hope to see that continue.
5. Sacre (even though the other team was shorter) played harder near the basket and I hope that ends up being more rebounds at each end.
6. Meech looked more under control and more like he belonged. We will have to wait and see as the competition gets better.
7. KO showed great hustle and will be a super asset as the season goes on.
8. Manny needs to hustle alittle more but I think we will see this as the competition improves.
9. The rest played well and I look forward to watching them as the season goes on.

Team needs to watch out in over comitting to far away from the basket and also keeping better position on defense. Relax and let the season begin.

[demian]

I agree reborn

I agree 100% with everything you said reborn. I will include that of the freshman I kinda liked that Mathis Keita guy. Great hustle and seems likes he is an athlete.

It sure was nice seeing the Zags play. It's been too long. I think they played really well considering our All-American, Elias Harris, sat out. I really liked the team hustle. My first impression is ,"Wow! These guys really put it all out there on the floor. Even for an exhibition game." Even Sacre was diving for a loose ball. The Defense was intense for an exhibition game, and I liked it. Steven was right. The Zags are better on defense.

I thought Sam Dower looked GREAT. He's the kind of post player (PF in my opinion) that I have hoped we get for a long, long time. As Mark Few said, "Sam is a scorer." And he sure is. And he's bulked up. Sam is going to be soooooo good as a Zag. I don't know if he's going to last 4 years though. He really has great hands, and can catch anything thrown at him. And he has such a soft touch for a big guy. I'm excited about Sam Dower.

Steven looked awesome too. 5 steals. Wow. I don't think Steven ever broke a sweat.

Olynyk showed some good moves down in the low post. It was nice to see his improvement. He was 5-5 in the low post. His outside shooting still looked pretty bad though. I was disappointed to see that.


The bad news I think is that our 3 pt shooting stunk. 26%. It was worse then last year. I am very disappointed in all those shooters that Few went out to get. That's got to be a concern. Kelly's 3 pt shooting last night looked exactly like last year, aweful.

I was also disappointed in Manny Arop. He seemed fairly disinterested out there most of the time to me. I was hoping that he'd step up and try to become a scorer, but I didn't see it last night. He definitely won't be a starter based on that performance. Im hoping he's a guy that plays at the level of competition. We'll find out soon enough. One thing I've always liked about him, which held up last night, is that he doesn't turn the ball over. I see his role pretty much like last year, a very solid guy coming in off the bench.

I was also disappointed in Carter's offensive game. I feel we need some scoring from him, and he didn't show that last night. He seems to be very unsure of his role. I did like his defense and thats important. And he's not a gunner like our back up pg last year...However, we still need more offense from him if we are to be successful. And especially from the 3 pt line. He was 1-3, which is not good imo.

Someone mentioned in one of the threads that the team probably wouldn't have looked any better with Harris in. That's a joke. Harris is an All American candidate. I think Harris would have ripped Southern Oregon apart. Put in Arris for Hart, and you say Gonzaga wouldn't have looked better? Ha ha ha. Harris is like Dower. He's a scorer, and has a scorer's mentality. And he can DUNK! i DID NOT SEE the things others saw this summer in Hart. I don't expect him to have any more of a role on this team than he had last year.

Stockton looked good at the point at times, but 5 turnovers is not GOOD folks. I wasn't impressed. And really is not a shooter/scorer. He does hustle, but I think everyone on the team does this year.

I don't see many minutes for the incoming class of freshmen. I think Monningoff is the only one who will play. And not a lot.

I hope Harris plays in the next game. I'd like to see how much better we look with him. It's pretty easy to say that we will look A LOT BETTER with him.

[cjm720]

Agree w Mick but I'd add I was stoked to see Sacre rebound the way he did.

We may have more losses than normal come WCC play, but wow we could be tough to beat down the stretch if we can find that illustrious chemistry.

[Hoopaholic]

Dower was a pleasant surprise, few more post moves perfected and he will be dominant

I find it amazing that NO ONE has mentioned that Meech was the THIRD leading rebounder with 7 rebounds that is one of his strengths a a guard which is amazing

Game seemed to be a little stagnant until Meech came into the game and lit a fire..offense was struggling a little bit I thought..came into game score 16-7 at the 13 minute mark of so, left at the 7 minute mark 33-15 so in the 6 minutes or so he played we doubled our score and wen on a 17-8 run.....
we score a single bucket the 3 minutes or so he was on the bench, then inserted back in and we go on another run to finish half 9-5 mini run of points

Gray looked good, focused and intense.

Sacre was the focus of SOU gameplan but thought he handled it well

Carter was the most disappointing to me in that he appeared to be a step behind, defensive rotational issues and at one point was being talked to by few and body language was "frustration"......BUT he has the skills and potential to be helpful by midseason is my guess

[BilboZaggins]

Some thoughts

Watched the game twice (thank you TiVo).

Random tidbits of brilliance after one game:

Remember when JP would get the ball in the block, pivot and get a good look and make a shot with a soft touch? I wish our bigs could do that consistently.

Sam had a nice game -- but most of his points came with little or no defense. He'll play a big role this year.

Sacre gets stuck when he's double teamed. Still. Against Southern Oregon. Hope that improves.

This team will win a lot of games but we're going to miss Bouldin's play making more than I thought. There's a huge hole and I just don't see how it's going to get filled.

I agree that Elias should heal up before playing. I think without him though we're in for some serious thrashing in our tougher OOC games.

Our top 6-7 guys are good - top 25 good but not top 12 good. By tourney time though the lineup of Meech, Gray, Harris, Olynk, Sacre will be tough.

Few is going to shorten the bench big time in the bigger games. Gray will be playing 35+ minutes.

I noticed Gray bringing the ball up the court a few times. I wonder if he'll be playing the point more and more if the other guys don't step up.

The bench will spot the starters some minutes, but there's a big drop off in skill and play making.

Meech does a nice job pushing the ball upcourt and looking for penetration, but he needs to keep his dribble and bring it out when there's nothing there.

His three pointer is a thing of beauty - play it in slow mo and you'll see him catch, square up and shoot with a perfect release. Seriously. Hopefully he can shoot 30%+.

Our outside shooting doesn't appear to be any better this year.

I think we'll probably get beat by SDSU and KState. Glad we have two relatively easy games before we play them.

I think we could be really good, but Elias has to get healthy and the rest of the starters have to stay healthy. I know that sounds obvious, but the main impression I'm getting is that we don't have much depth.

[bigparb]

KO misunderstood

Kelly is still launching without confidence from the 3pt line, and at bad spots on the clock. His free throw shooting isn't that great. He'll get better with time, although his stroke isn't like Heytvelt's, that's for sure. The rest of his game is really good, O and D. Decent rebounding.

Can't disagree more with this assessment of KO, especially his FT shooting....I think he's one of the most calm, cool and collected guys we have a the line.....I got no problem with him at the line in a tight game......I also don't see a lack of confidence from distance....certainly didn't see in it in the Worlds when he was knocking down 3's....the problem....maybe he needs to take a step back off the 3pt line...some guys shoot better from a step back........

KO's never gonna blow guys away with his athleticism, but IMO he's the kind of guy that plays a "winning" type of game...kind of the like how Turiaf is in the pros.....he may not be the most exciting player on the floor, but good things happen when he is on the floor.....its because he does so many little things...his BB IQ is very high.....

...stepping off the soap box...

[U Zig, I Zag]

Mangisto Arop

Not sure. He played hesitantly. Still has a nose for the ball. Athletically he was there, didn't favor a foot or avoid anything, but wasn't aggressive either. I think he banged down a three, which was good. Again, probably off the bench as 6th man. Maybe until he is a junior, when at that point he will be an elder and it will be more of his team. Was he ill a bit or something? Anyone know? Hoping he gets more aggressive. I am pretty sure though that Steven, Elias and Rob are the only 3 with greenlights at all times... that might hamper your game if you are Manny.

Marquise Carter

I chalk a bunch of this up to being nervous, especially on O. His D was great. He seems well-versed in the 'harassment' type D where you get your body on the guy and bump bump bump until the ref tells you to back off or you get a foul. Then you push the limit again. His runner didn't fall, but he took some, which is a good sign. Someone needs to do this on this team. Hopefully they start falling (that's 'his shot' correct?).

Sam Dower

Maybe the wrong place to say this, but he would have helped us more last year than Kelly. He is not 'smooth' like someone suggested he should be in another thread but he is bouncy and aggressive like Kuso but he has hands sponsored by Isotoner. He may end up being one of the best Zag forwards when it's all said and done. The ball does in fact find it's way in the hoop when he has it. Love this kid. Good build and good attitude.

Demetri Goodson

The kid's alright. Hitting that first three is HUGE folks. HUGE. The bench knew it because they cheered as such. Meech, whether we can tell in the details or not is obviously doing something different with his shot. Few and Co are letting him and the team down if they didn't come up with some alternative mechanics and mindset for Meech and set shots. He is 1.5 times faster than everyone on the floor and if we rely heavily on a pushing transition game (I think Few will) Meech will be a godsend. My blood pressure lowered when he came into the game and started handling the ball. He seemed more aware on the passing angle (no Matt to defer too) and as long as the shots fall in reasonable quantities then he will be fine. His slashes towards the hoop might not work against taller competition, but if the team can develop the old Memphis methodology of driving and dishing then Meech + Steven, Elias, Manny and Sam could exploit the heck out of Meech's speed by trailing in the key after Meech has pulled focus.

Steven Gray

Did exactly what he should have done. Didn't seem particularly stressed at any point. Shots fell. He looks like the most polished player, all-around, on the team and why wouldn't he be? Twice, I think I saw him call for the ball behind halfcourt and brought it up himself - that's exactly what needs to happen. If he sees something he doesn't like then he needs to take control. He needs to be more vocal though. Best defensive guard on the west coast and one of the best in the country IMHO. Hope he gets some rec for that.

Elias Harris

Not exactly sure, but I am pretty sure I saw him dunk from the bench. He was probably just messing around though. If he is not ready, Few needs to really weigh the affects of dropping one or two early to have him for later. This kid can't have a nagging injury all year long... it will be devastating to this team. Other then maybe Steven wide-open at the 3pt line Elias is the only player on the team that other teams HAVE to watch at all times on the offensive end. He is that good - please, please Elias - don't be hurt.

Mike Hart

Didn't see it. He is big and strong but not quick. Played within himself though. I don't see a ton of minutes unless something changes. Mentally, he seemed OK and would be good to fill in with some mistake-less minutes now and again, BUT we would have to have a scoring machine on the opposite side to make up for it.

Keegan Hyland

Nervous. Probably red-shirt. Got yanked quick. If he is a three point specialist we didn't see it, but they didn't set anything up for him either.

Mathis Keita

This is Mateese, right? How about Falcon? As in Mathis Falcon. The other guy can be called Money. So The Falcon and Money. That's settled. I like his shape. He has the build and is athletic. It was uncanny how after he battled for that putback he ran back on D exactly like Elias does, big strides, hands up, fingers in curled down on the ends. That alone makes me hope we have a mini-Elias at some point. He went to the hole once, off the dribble. Liked it.

Mathis Mönninghoff

Was out there more than The Falcon, made some mistakes but looked pretty nervous as well. Can't be easy with that crowd and expectations. Didn't see a bunch I liked but he was involved in a few good offense sets. Good movement without the ball which is a sign of a heady player. If you aren't exactly sure on the play, then get out of the way then make yourself open...

Kelly Olynyk

He hustles... but his outside shot looked very awkward. His key is going to be to pull people out and open the lane for slashers and Sam/Rob. To do that he has to be able to take it on the deck, shoot it over the top at 15 feet or hit that three. He is 7' and he doesn't dunk. Kelly: whenever possible, put it down. Hard. It's the same reason martial arts people yell when they make their moves. There is power in it. Own the rim up close and they will be afraid to let you at it... then kill them with a confident outside shot. He was involved with several heady passing plays, some involving just the bigs, which is very, very exciting to see.

Robert Sacre

What we expect. Wish he would bowl more fools over on his way to the rim but it would help if our guards could get him the ball in better spots. One thing I noticed is that he would setup early, work the guy down but the guards weren't ready and still had to make the first 'motion' pass with someone swinging around top. By that time Rob stands back up, comes of the key then goes back down low. Lots of work to ultimately not get the ball. Rob likes the little hook and almost seems steadfast on doing it regardless of the double team. We need to find a way to exploit when the opponent drops 1,2,3 guys into the middle to stop that pass and double up on Rob. He looks in excellent shape and I think he is going to be good for 13/8 all year. He is good in transition, which is good for a 7-footer. I think we are going to see a more upbeat offense and Rob is a key to that.

David Stockton

No. Well, not no, no, no... but man, 5 to's, the shot looked way off. He had a good pass here or there but at his size, just being out there to make a post pass now and again isn't going to cut it. I didn't like what I saw and I was hoping that I might see something that everyone else had been chatting about... maybe I missed something?

[CaliforniaZaggin']

What a difference a couple weeks make. Just since practices have officially started, we've gone from some posters proclaiming that Manny will be an early entrant to the NBA draft (see threads after Midnight Madness) to others now labeling him as a "major disappointment" -- and the team has yet to play an official game! Good grief. Is it too early in the day to have a beer?