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View Full Version : Manny v. Harris at the 3



cggonzaga
10-16-2010, 08:52 AM
There has been some talk about this since yesterday's scrimmage. I don't pretend to know what the coaches are thinking but it seems to me its a no-brainer that Manny should start at the 3. Here's why:

1) Manny is our only true 3 with the right size, athleticism, strength and acumen to play there

2) If we start Harris at the 3 with Kelly at the 4 we lose any depth at the 4 and 5 that we could've had. I would much rather see Rob and Elias starting down low with Kelly and Sam coming off the bench to spell those guys. Elias then becomes Manny's backup at the 3.

3) No matter what happens we are going to be extremely fresh throughout the year with Rob, Elias, Kelly, Sam, Manny and possibly Monninghoff rotating in the frontcourt. I could see all these guys with exception of MM getting at least 15-20mpg. (pretty safe bet Elias and Manny will be playing closer to 30-35mpg) What a luxury!

GoZags
10-16-2010, 08:59 AM
With the lack (sheer numbers) of bigs on this year's roster -- don't be surprised to see Manny periodically get some minutes at the 4. He'll certainly see time there in practice.

MickMick
10-16-2010, 09:13 AM
Manny is a different type of player than Matt. He brings a different style of play.

Having said that, Matt isn't looking nearly as irreplaceable as I first thought. Slide Manny in Matt's spot and the Zags look good to go. Consider the natural improvement from the experience gained at other positions and the Zags look like they may even be a little better than last season.

I wouldn't have thought that a month ago.

JPtheBeasta
10-16-2010, 09:24 AM
Pros for Harris starting at the 4:
-Manny's rebounding is just to good to leave off the floor.
-There will be plenty of minutes to go around for a rotation of Dower-Sacre-Olynyk-Harris.
-Many teams in the WCC won't have matchups that require a large line-up with Harris at the 3
-Most of our depth is in the back court. If Harris plays the lion's share of his minutes at the 3, certain players won't see the floor and our front court turns into a 3-man rotation.
-If Harris does start at the 3, any foul trouble by the bigs and he has to drop down to the 4
-NBA scouts don't need to see Harris play the 3 to be able to project him as a 3 in the NBA. Professional scouts are smart enought to evaluate a player without seeing him play his projected position. They will see enough of Harris' quickness, defense, and outside shooting ability-wherever he plays on the court
-Harris has already proven he can produce at the 4

Cons for Harris playing the 4:
-NBA scouts won't get to see him play the majority of his minutes in the position he projects out to in the NBA (as an aside, what does the draft have to do with winning now, in college? If Florida was worried about Tebow getting drafted, they would have worked on his throwing mechanics well before the end of his senior year).
-Reduced minutes for Kelly and Sam
-Harris' athleticism doesn't translate into him being the greatest post defender.
-Match-up problems against the tallest teams

cjm720
10-16-2010, 10:17 AM
I'd start Manny and keep KO as a six man...can sub in for 3 positions, adds flexibility. Good position to be in for coach.

bigparb
10-16-2010, 10:40 AM
Big picture.....it's less about locking guys into particular positions like the 3 or 4....its more about minutes and match ups........harris going to be our star this year and I could care less whether Manny starts or not........how much run does he get and who's on the floor late in the 4th quarter are what matters.....

Harris is going to get 30-40 MPG.....that's a given.....

Manny should be getting 20-30 MPG no doubt about it.......

I imagine we'll see Fewie try multiple guys in combination with Sacre/Harris....is arop the best fit or kelly or Sam or the Hoff?.........time will tell.......I could see any of those 4 in the starting lineup....

Lets assume that Sacre/Harris/Arop start.......who's got a better 2nd unit front court in the nation?....I'd feel confident rolling out Sam/Kelly/The Hoff against any other teams 2nd unit....hell....even most teams 1st unit for that matter....

maynard g krebs
10-16-2010, 10:46 AM
Agree that Manny needs to start. Even if Meech improves his shooting somewhat, he'll probably never be a great halfcourt player. His strength is obviously in the transition game, and playing him with a huge, relatively slow lineup seems like a recipe for the kind of slow starts that plagued the team Adam's frosh yr. With Gray as the only true shooter starting, opposing D's can pack the post and we'll see halfcourt, slog it out mudball to start games pretty often imo.

If Meech starts, it absolutely has to be with an uptempo lineup that can run with him. Gray and Manny on the wings. Start the game fast with ball pressure, and get out and run.

That's still a frontcourt of 7', 6'7, and 6'5, plenty big for college ball, esp. when the 6'5 guy is the best rebounder at his size in the country.

The big lineup has its place, against duos like Samhan/Allen, but those are rare.

The greatest college coach's mantra was "quickness with as much size as possible", not the other way around. Start the game with the best attacking lineup. That means Manny.

GonzagasaurusFlex
10-16-2010, 12:39 PM
I've long been a fan of separating Sacre and Meech from all lienups together. Never a good thing to have two nonshooters together. Switch in Dower or KO, and I think Meech's talents have more chance to emerge.

Good point. I love Meech and am happy to have him as our starting PG, but you make a great point. Meech's strength is pushing the pace and applying defensive pressure, so it would makes sense to pair Sacre with a PG more adept at feeding the post and knocking down open jump shots.

Hmmm.....

Might we be treated to a fast-paced, athletic starting lineup of:
PG:Meech; SG:Gray; SF:Arop; PF:Harris; C:Dower

..followed by a more methodical, dominate you inside rotation of:
PG: Carter; SG: Gray; SF: Harris; PF: Olynyk; C: Sacre

No idea when/where you get minutes for Team Mathis, Hyland et al

MDABE80
10-16-2010, 12:59 PM
If I had to guess, I'd say there will be plenty of times when both will play simultaneously. Fluid offense and position labels don't matter.

sittingon50
10-16-2010, 02:08 PM
Not sure I understand/agree with your assessment that Morrison played on a team with a big/relatively slow line-up his Freshman year.

Stepp/Bankhead/Skinner/Violette/Turiaf were the starter's with Raivio & Knight in the rotation. IMO Stepp is absolutely the best the Zags have had in running the transition (since '92 anyway).

BobZag
10-16-2010, 02:25 PM
Big picture.....it's less about locking guys into particular positions like the 3 or 4....its more about minutes and match ups........harris going to be our star this year and I could care less whether Manny starts or not........how much run does he get and who's on the floor late in the 4th quarter are what matters.....

Harris is going to get 30-40 MPG.....that's a given.....

Manny should be getting 20-30 MPG no doubt about it.......

I imagine we'll see Fewie try multiple guys in combination with Sacre/Harris....is arop the best fit or kelly or Sam or the Hoff?.........time will tell.......I could see any of those 4 in the starting lineup....

Lets assume that Sacre/Harris/Arop start.......who's got a better 2nd unit front court in the nation?....I'd feel confident rolling out Sam/Kelly/The Hoff against any other teams 2nd unit....hell....even most teams 1st unit for that matter....

This pretty much sums up my thoughts. A good post among many good posts here.

Larryzag
10-16-2010, 03:01 PM
I'd start Manny and keep KO as a six man...can sub in for 3 positions, adds flexibility. Good position to be in for coach.

+1

maynard g krebs
10-16-2010, 10:29 PM
Not sure I understand/agree with your assessment that Morrison played on a team with a big/relatively slow line-up his Freshman year.

Stepp/Bankhead/Skinner/Violette/Turiaf were the starter's with Raivio & Knight in the rotation. IMO Stepp is absolutely the best the Zags have had in running the transition (since '92 anyway).

Sorry, guess I wasn't clear. Was just referencing the fact that Adam's fr year the team got off to slow starts often, until Adam came in. For a different reason, of course, i.e not having scorers at the 2 and 3 as CDC has often pointed out. Nothing to do with the size of that team.

I just think the team will start faster with Manny on the floor.

gopackgozags
10-17-2010, 07:03 AM
One of the biggest unspoken benefits from the amount of roster flexibility we possess this season is that it will no longer be necessary to play Elias, or any other player for that matter, 40 minutes a night. While there will be plenty of nail-biter OOC games where he will be counted on throughout the game, I think this team is much better equipped than last year's version to avoid burnout by the time March rolls around.

seasontixholder
10-17-2010, 09:00 AM
I'd start Manny and keep KO as a six man...can sub in for 3 positions, adds flexibility. Good position to be in for coach.

So KO can sub in for the sf position, you say? I think our 7-0 soph is incapable of guarding any respectable 3, no more than Sacre is.

Here's the deal. Kelly, imo, was selected to play over Dower last year because he was seen as another decent passer and playmaker on a team woefully short of that skill. And because it was believed that he would be able to absorb the offensive sets quicker, given his past as a guard.

Fast forward to 2010-11. Kelly will be employed as a playmaker again (with our point guards being question marks), and this year it will be with a season of experience. Last year he was hesitant a lot, and it tested the belief that he was, verily, that ready. Not so this year, that was one of the things evident in the scrimmage. Bottom line: this season hinges upon improvement the assists stats, and KO or someone else is going to have to add substantially if this team wishes to go further.

Manny will start over Kelly only if he has absorbed enough of the offense, and if it has become second nature. If he doesn't break down sets too many times. (I don't know whether that is the case or not, but that will be the criteria.) Manny is a very good passer, but he has to do it within the flow of the offense to matter to the coaching staff. Longer term, when everything becomes practiced and instinctive, Manny will be our best player in the future. He may start the very first game, but his appearance on the blue roster was not encouraging to me.

titopoet
10-17-2010, 01:46 PM
I still believe Kelly is our best dirty work guy. He sets the best back screens and picks off the defenders. He was responsible for so many open shots by Harris, Gray and others. (You only get credit from a coach for that work. No numbers or fan appreciation.) I also love his work with Sacre in the march madness. He has proved to be the best post pass player on this year team. It was no accident that Sacre's easiest baskets came from Kelly's passes. Kelly being on the floor adds a couple of points to Gray, Harris, and Sacre averages.

He is like a 7 foot Pendo on the floor. The fact remains that the starting white 5 really dominated the blue. Only when one of the five was off the floor was the blue able to generate anything against the white. Several times I saw Arop pass up when he was covered by Kelly.

I know I might be a minority on the board (though I maybe with the majority of GU's coaches), but it still makes more sense to have the starting 5 of the white being the starting 5 for GU.