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former1dog
05-18-2007, 11:00 AM
Ok, the more I think about the Bulldog Club Senior Athlete Award, the more it bothers me.

I am a Derek Raivio fan. I alway liked his game and thought he contributed mightily to the B-Ball Team's considerable success. So, my opinion is not intended to be a slight against Derek Raivio.

BUT, Joe Miller was clearly the most deserving athlete for the award. It should not have been even close.

No male athlete in Gonzaga history in the WCC/WCAC has ever won 4 1st team all conference awards. To add to this, the all conference awards are based on the performance in the conference championships, not on the overall performance during the year. This means Joe Miller stepped up to the plate and competed and got those awards when they counted most.

Joe is also the Gonzaga school record holder in the 5000 and 10000 meter track events. He broke these records by significant margins. Second best to Joe isn't even close. I believe Joe also has the school record in the 3000 meters as well, but I haven't been able to verify this.

Joe should have won this award.

RenoZag
05-18-2007, 11:18 AM
You make a persuasive argument for Mr. Miller, Former.

Is there a precedent for the Bulldog Club giving the award to male athletes in sports other than hoops & baseball ?

former1dog
05-18-2007, 11:34 AM
Reno,

I can't say for certain. I kinda doubt it, though.

Someone else you might know faced a similar circumstance about 15 years ago... ;)

PilotNut
05-18-2007, 12:17 PM
Well I guess it depends on the criteria for the award.

Nothing against Miller at all, but did Raivio get preference due to the teams relative performance? Hoops: WCC Title, NCAA tourney; XC: No WCC title. Just a thought.

I know that in some tournaments I have played in, MVP voting is weighted heavier for teams that finish higher in the tournament bracket...

former1dog
05-18-2007, 01:09 PM
Nothing against Miller at all, but did Raivio get preference due to the teams relative performance? Hoops: WCC Title, NCAA tourney; XC: No WCC title. Just a thought.

That's a fair question. I don't know as I'm not a Bulldog Club Member, I don't have a vote and I am not privy to the criteria.

It seems to me, though, that it is an invidual award given to a Senior each year. As it is given to a senior, I would suspect that part of the criteria is to consider that athletes entire career and his individual accomplishments. On those merits, Joe Miller was without peer in his class. Additionally, Joe was clearly the MVP of his team 3 out of 4 years of participation.

Zag79
05-20-2007, 12:14 AM
I think at any University a 3 year starting G on the hoops team who:
won wcc player of the year
led the team at 18 ppg
is in top 10 and top 5 in the history of the school in:
3s made
steals
assists
and more

would receive the award as well F1.

former1dog
05-21-2007, 07:08 AM
I think at any University a 3 year starting G on the hoops team who:
won wcc player of the year
led the team at 18 ppg
is in top 10 and top 5 in the history of the school in:
3s made
steals
assists
and more

would receive the award as well F1.

79,

Like I said, I've got no interest in saying anything but positives about DRAV.

Simply saying that Joe Miller's career at Gonzaga was unprecedented. No one ever accomplished what he did. (4 consecutive 1st Team All Conference, any sport). Not to mention being the best ever at GU for his particular sport.

DRAV was a great player for GU. I think we can both agree he was not the best GU basketball player ever. He put up outstanding numbers, but is not at the top of any category. He was honored by his peers and the league, but not for 4 consecutive years on the first team.

I'm going to miss DRAV and he was an important member of the basketball team, deserving of the Senior Athlete Award. It just so happens his senior year coincided with Joe Miller's, who in my opinion was more deserving.

soonerterp
05-21-2007, 11:41 PM
F1Dog, your argument is compelling. Both of them are fine athletes, both of them will be remembered for what they gave to their institution.

I have one question, though:

Did both of them actually FINISH their degrees and take that walk at commencement? I'm just curious because at the end of the day that's the most desirable culmination of X number of years of college, whether you're a student-athlete or not ... and ultimately I think that criterion -- finishing one's degree -- would have a little weight, no?

former1dog
05-22-2007, 07:01 AM
Did both of them actually FINISH their degrees and take that walk at commencement? I'm just curious because at the end of the day that's the most desirable culmination of X number of years of college, whether you're a student-athlete or not ... and ultimately I think that criterion -- finishing one's degree -- would have a little weight, no?

I can't say for sure. My guess is that its a pretty safe bet they both have graduated and were relatively good students. The men's cross country team, BTW, had the highest cumulative GPA of any sports team at Gonzaga this past year.

Joe Miller was featured as a senior in the latest Alumni magazine. I've never heard of any academic problems with Derek. I'm guessing if there were, we'd have heard about it somehow.

Edited to add, I absolutely agree with your primary point, Sooner. :)

lothar98zag
05-24-2007, 11:17 AM
Do all of the voters for this award know that GU has a X-country team?

former1dog
05-24-2007, 11:30 AM
Do all of the voters for this award know that GU has a X-country team?

Well, it would be pretty sad if they don't. The history of the team goes as far back as the 1960's or earlier.

bulldogshawn
05-28-2007, 04:18 PM
I lived right above Joe for the past year, he works incredibly hard at what he does, both athletically and academically. I talked to him the night of the award ceremony and he was quite upset he didn't win, as was pretty much the entire XC team.

a13coach
05-29-2007, 09:20 AM
I am not making a judgment on who deserved the award the most, but I suspect that maybe those doing the voting took into account not only accomplishments but also took in account the level of competition.

lothar98zag
05-29-2007, 11:22 AM
I am not making a judgment on who deserved the award the most, but I suspect that maybe those doing the voting took into account not only accomplishments but also took in account the level of competition.
(I'll answer for F1D)

Level of competition? GU-X runs at the NCAA Div-1 level, just like the basketball team plays. I'm not sure how that line of thinking would work...

a13coach
05-29-2007, 12:16 PM
(I'll answer for F1D)

Level of competition? GU-X runs at the NCAA Div-1 level, just like the basketball team plays. I'm not sure how that line of thinking would work...

My thought was not the D-1 level. Example 20 yrs ago GU mens basketball played D-1 ball, but the overall quality of the teams they played back then pales when compared to the quality of teams the mens basketball team plays today. University of Maine does not equal UNC even though both are D1. The competition is a lot tougher these days.

former1dog
05-29-2007, 12:29 PM
My thought was not the D-1 level. Example 20 yrs ago GU mens basketball played D-1 ball, but the overall quality of the teams they played back then pales when compared to the quality of teams the mens basketball team plays today. University of Maine does not equal UNC even though both are D1. The competition is a lot tougher these days.

A13,

That very well may be a fair means of evaluation.

Even so, Joe Miller is the very best Cross Country and distance Track Athlete in the history of Gonzaga sports. It is a little embarassing personally for me to admit this, but no one else is even close. (Myself included :( )

That kind of record should be recognized and it was appropriate for the Bulldog Club to honor him.

Derek Raivio had a fine career, no one can deny that. What I'm saying is that no one could reasonably make the argument that Derek was the best ever in his sport at Gonzaga. Further, no one could reasonably argue that Derek was more valuable to his team over 4 years than was Joe Miller, a 4 time first team all conference competitor.

This falls short of total injustice, but it still stinks that Joe was not recognized by the Bulldog Club for his unprecedented athletic career at Gonzaga.

I should admit that at the completion of my own days at GU I felt similarly slighted. I got over it quickly(for the most part), but this whole circumstance reminds me of my own experience. For the record, Joe is a helluva lot more deserving of the award than I was so many years ago.

lothar98zag
05-29-2007, 12:31 PM
How are these awards given out? Does GU have a dinner/event where GU fans pay to attend? Which sport brings in more money? Hmm...

former1dog
05-29-2007, 12:43 PM
How are these awards given out? Does GU have a dinner/event where GU fans pay to attend? Which sport brings in more money? Hmm...

:D

Actually, its a banquet hosted by the Bulldog Club and attended by senior athletes from all sports. I at least got a placque for showing up back in the day... :o

Zag79
05-30-2007, 01:02 AM
;)

Level of competition? GU-X runs at the NCAA Div-1 level, just like the basketball team plays. I'm not sure how that line of thinking would work...
correct me if im wrong, but almost every race joe was in was against competition with the likes of ewu, whitworth, idaho, wsu, eastern oregon, spokane CC, western baptist, highline CC, i cant even go on without laughing. secondly, when he set one school record in the 5000 he was still 30 seconds off the winning runners time and 11th overall behind the likes of wyoming and portland. he finsihed 39th overall in his OWN SPECIALTY run against top runners. i know your a runner F1 but come on man.

raivio set the school record for FTs, think of all the ex zags he passed. gotta be as good if not better than miller setting a record in the 5000. he competed againt WAY tougher competition throughout his career, the hardest ever put together at gonzaga.

Raivio is:
4th ALL TIME in assists
4th ALL TIME in 3PTers made, only behind matt, blake and richie while shooting almost half as many (greater %)
3rd ALL TIME for Fts made (and shooting a way better % than any zag, ever)
3rd ALL TIME in steals, only behind stockton and spradley
1st ALL TIME FT %

after reading that i cant figure how anyone could put miller over raivio for this year or career numbers for the award at hand.

former1dog
05-30-2007, 05:11 AM
;)

correct me if im wrong, but almost every race joe was in was against competition with the likes of ewu, whitworth, idaho, wsu, eastern oregon, spokane CC, western baptist, highline CC, i cant even go on without laughing. secondly, when he set one school record in the 5000 he was still 30 seconds off the winning runners time and 11th overall behind the likes of wyoming and portland. he finsihed 39th overall in his OWN SPECIALTY run against top runners. i know your a runner F1 but come on man.


I'd love to correct you Zag79. Joe certainly competed against NAIA foes as well as top level NCAA competition including Notre Dame, Stanford, and UW and WSU regularly. In our very own conference he competes against the University of Portland which is consistently higher nationally ranked than our very own Gonzaga Bulldogs Basketball team. BTW - A lot of top level NAIA as well as NCAA D2 and D3 end up as world class and Olympic level track athletes.

Also, I believe when he set the 5000 meter school record the first time, he finished 2nd in the race.

As far as you laughing, Zag79, I'm kinda disappointed in that reaction. You ought to have a little more respect for this young man and his significant accomplishments. I read in the most recent Gonzaga Quarterly where during his 4 years at GU he ran 13,000 miles, wore out 40 pairs of shoes, and spent nearly 1600 hours running. On top of that, he was a good student.

Joe did all of this to my knowledge with out one cent of athletic scholarship money. Hell, even I had the benefit of a little help in that area when I was at GU.

And one more point. Derek Raivio, the last time I checked, wasn't writing any of the schedules for Gonzaga. Joe Miller doesn't do that either. Both athletes competed against whomever was on the schedule.

LongIslandZagFan
05-30-2007, 07:26 AM
;)

correct me if im wrong, but almost every race joe was in was against competition with the likes of ewu, whitworth, idaho, wsu, eastern oregon, spokane CC, western baptist, highline CC, i cant even go on without laughing. secondly, when he set one school record in the 5000 he was still 30 seconds off the winning runners time and 11th overall behind the likes of wyoming and portland. he finsihed 39th overall in his OWN SPECIALTY run against top runners. i know your a runner F1 but come on man.



I'm with F1D on this. I don't see how you can compare competition level. Running in the end is a solitary sport. Plus if you want to pick individual results out, one could point out DR's entire Junior year and his inability to create his own shot. I love DR and this isn't meant as a slam on him by any means, rather it is to point out how it sounds to me when I read your attacks on Joe.

Basketball is NOT the only sport at GU and I think the Bulldog Club needs to take its orange colored glasses off every once in awhile and truly look at ALL of the athletes.

lawzag
05-30-2007, 11:48 AM
I agree with most of what's been posted - DRAV was a great contributor to the GU hoops, no doubt about it; Miller was the best runner (that I'm aware of) in GU history ... unfortunately, there is a sad fact in our current American society - football, basketball & baseball are the "premier" sports when it comes to school sports.

whether college or high school, other sports such as soccer, wrestling, track, etc. are second fiddle - primarily because they are not the $ makers for the school that the other three are. Thus, the other sports & athletes do not get the notoriety or award recognition that they deserve.

example: a wrestler - 3.8+ GPA, 4 time letterman, honor society, 1200+ SAT, accepted to 6 major D-1 colleges did not get the alumni scholarship at our high school - it went to the football "star" who was so proud of is 3.2 GPA, 1010 SAT & D-2 college acceptance....:confused: what's with that...:eek:

alumni groups, such as the Bulldog Club make those types of decisions by "majority" & unfortunately the rest of us have to live with them :(

sonuvazag
05-30-2007, 12:05 PM
I'm not exactly sad that the premier sports in America are also, by far, my favorite sports... and I actually agree with the dilemma posed here. Where money's concerned, the flow almost always goes to the glitz and bright lights. DRav is an all-time Zag in a glamour sport so it diminishes him none whatsoever that this thread is a testament to Miller and his amazing accomplishments.

former1dog
05-30-2007, 12:09 PM
... unfortunately, there is a sad fact in our current American society - football, basketball & baseball are the "premier" sports when it comes to school sports.

whether college or high school, other sports such as soccer, wrestling, track, etc. are second fiddle - primarily because they are not the $ makers for the school that the other three are. Thus, the other sports & athletes do not get the notoriety or award recognition that they deserve.


Lawzag, you're absolutely correct. Sad but true.

Your point, though, does remind me of a somewhat amusing story from the not so distant past.

During the lean years of the mid 80's to early 90's for Gonzaga Men's Basketball apparently there was pressure being applied to the GU Athletic Dept. by the NCAA to justify our D1 status. Ironically to our current conversation, in a letter from Fitz to the NCAA, Fitz justified Gonzaga's D1 status to the NCAA by pointing to the Men's Cross Country teams success in the WCAC/WCC. At that time, we were in the midst of 9 consecutive years of 2nd place finishes in the team conference standings behind national power, University of Portland. :D

Not an urban legend, I actually saw a copy of the letter. Perhaps its not a huge leap of logic to conclude that if it weren't for the relatively modest D1 success of the Men's Cross Country team a decade and a half ago, we might not be having this debate.

bulldogshawn
05-30-2007, 04:25 PM
I read in the most recent Gonzaga Quarterly where during his 4 years at GU he ran 13,000 miles, wore out 40 pairs of shoes, and spent nearly 1600 hours running. On top of that, he was a good student.

Joe did all of this to my knowledge with out one cent of athletic scholarship money.

I'd be surprised if 13000 miles was an underestimate, the man runs everywhere. It's insane. I can't tell you how many times over the past year the guys in my apartment building would be wanting to do something on a beautiful Saturday and go looking for Joe only to find he was in the admin building studying. An exceptional athlete and an exceptional student. He will be missed on the team.

As for scholarships, I know the mens and womens XC team each get 1/2 of a scholarship. They divide it amongst the top runners, each getting 1 or 2 thousand at most per year.

Zag79
05-31-2007, 12:05 AM
my post was by no means a slam on joe. he was the best runner GU has ever had. BUT in comparison i still cannot see how: a guy racing against naia athletes (say all you want but naia runners isnt stiff competition for the cream of the crop), and setting a school record that in all fairness wasnt good enough to place in the top 10 of that meet would earn someone honors above a hoops player that finished top in so many categories among the likes of GUs best ever. we can agree to disagree though, thats what a board is for... ;)

former1dog
05-31-2007, 07:40 AM
my post was by no means a slam on joe.

I'm glad you clarified that.


BUT in comparison i still cannot see how: a guy racing against naia athletes (say all you want but naia runners isnt stiff competition for the cream of the crop),

#1 - I think your statement shows that you don't know a lot about the sport of cross country or distance running on the track. No offense, but did you know that Pat Porter, arguably the greatest cross country runner in the history of our country ran in college for Adams State. NAIA at the time, I think D2 now. In Colorado, home of the perenially competitive Buffaloes, it is of annual interest to see if the Buffs can actually beat small schools Adams State and Western State in cross country. Now, the Buffs, as I recall, have won 3 NCAA championships in XC over the past 10 years and yet they bairly squeek by these small NAIA or D2 schools. Edwin Moses, owner of the most impressive win streak in the history of track and field and a multiple Olympic Gold Medal winner went to Morehouse College, D2. Currently, one of the top 800m and mile runners in the country is phenom Nick Symmonds. Guess what? He ran for Williamette, graduated last year. I could go on but you should be getting the picture by now.

#2 - Joe ran one NAIA sponsored cross meet this past year, which he won. The rest were all D1 sponsored meets. He did well in all of them, with the possible exception of NCAA regionals, where compared to the previous year I think Joe may have had a poor showing.

former1dog
05-31-2007, 09:12 AM
Oh yeah...


and setting a school record that in all fairness wasnt good enough to place in the top 10 of that meet would earn someone honors above a hoops player that finished top in so many categories among the likes of GUs best ever. we can agree to disagree though, thats what a board is for... ;)


- Not quite sure where you're getting your info, my recollection is that each time Joe set a school record he was amongst the top collegiate placers in the race.

- If you're referring to his indoor 5000m this year at the Last Chance meet at UW, I think we may finally have an accurate way to compare Joe and Derek. A last chance meet is a chance for athletes who haven't had a qualifying time yet in their season for the national championships. These races often also include professional athletes and other post collegians, because they are "open", meaning they let anyone who meets a minimum time qualification compete.

Now, the only situation in my mind that Derek Raivio has been in that is similar may have been the recent pro scouting camp/invitational(Portsmouth?) Much like a last chance meet, these are basketball players looking for a last chance to impress or move up the ladder in terms of the pros. A significant difference, though, is Derek's event wasn't open. It didn't include players who were already professionals or post collegians like most last chance collegiate track meets do. All in all, I think comparing Joe's race in the last chance meet to Derek's performance at Portsmouth is fair. Joe finished 11th in that race, where would you say Derek finished amongst all the players at the Portsmouth?

BTW - The guy who won Joe's race, Robert Cheseret, was an NCAA distance running superstar. He won multiple national championships. He was competing as a professional in this race. Maybe a comparable basketball player to Cheseret as a track runner would be Jason Williams of Illinois, now playing for the Utah Jazz. How would Derek do one on one vs. Jason Williams? In the world of the hard to make comparison's, would Derek be within 35 seconds of Jason Williams?

Zag79
06-01-2007, 12:13 AM
well first of all im assuming you mean Deron williams of utah? and in racing i do know that 35 seconds behind the winner is quite a bit off the pace. so sure, you could say dr would be the same with deron. but thats not very accurate considering stats. deron only avgd 11 pts a game in college, on 36% shooting from 3, and only 67% at the line. so head to head you never know. if you havent seen dr go 1on1 you might, no, you would be very surprised. he beat on pargo and matt quite often. (both nba bound probably) aside from that, i get your point about naia runners but im going to go out on a limb and still say that MOST of the great runners are going to go to top d1 track schools. for example, joes 5000 race RECORD would have put him in 16th place at the d1 west regionals, last in the d1 prelims, and 10th in the D2 prelims. thats not holding up compared to the top racers.

no offense, but did you know that Pat Porter, arguably the greatest cross country runner in the history of our country ran in college for Adams State. NAIA at the time, I think D2 now
and jerry rice came from a little school to, but we both know thats not the ordinary.

Not quite sure where you're getting your info im getting all my stats of the official Gonzaga athletic site, where im sure they wouldnt downplay jos achievements. so for an award you would think the winner of it would be the guy that sets GU records against the top competition, not the guy that (awesome thing mind you) broke the school record but compared to the rest of the countries best was mediocre. again, no knock on joe or his accomplishments just debating head to head with dr. :D

former1dog
06-01-2007, 07:12 AM
Oops, yep, I meant Deron. :o

Anyhoo, we're obviously not convincing one another, but lets see who was more convincing to the general public, here:

http://www.guboards.com/showthread.php?t=3161

a13coach
06-01-2007, 08:14 AM
Oops, yep, I meant Deron. :o

Anyhoo, we're obviously not convincing one another, but lets see who was more convincing to the general public, here:

http://www.guboards.com/showthread.php?t=3161

Well since I kind of stirred up this hornets nest, I might as well do some more.

F1D, are you implying that your posts here where meant to convince the readers that Joe was more deserving than Derek or were you merely giving your well thought out insightful opinion?

I have a question to pose. Where was/is Joe ranked nationally amongst college X-runners and where do you think Derek was ranked amongst college point guards? You see it is really too hard to compare the two because the two sports are so different. Yes X-country is a team sport but it is also a individual sport. How many X-C teams devised a "game" plan to specifically stop Joe and forget the rest of the team? Hell Duke (and many other teams) basically said we are going to stop Derek and we do not care what the rest of the GU team does. Maybe other X-C teams did set out to specifically "box" Joe in or some other ploy, but I get the feeling that this isn't what happened. Does anybody know this info?

Again though I am not making a claim that Derek is more deserving than Joe. I am saying that, to say Joe deserved the award more than Derek is not accurate. Is Joe just as deserving as Derek? Well probably but by no means is it a clear choice in favor of Joe.

former1dog
06-01-2007, 08:39 AM
Again though I am not making a claim that Derek is more deserving than Joe. I am saying that, to say Joe deserved the award more than Derek is not accurate. Is Joe just as deserving as Derek? Well probably but by no means is it a clear choice in favor of Joe.


Very seldom do you have XC race tactics designed to thwart a single athlete, because they don't work. XC is not devoid of team tactics, but they usually involve pacing and course specific surges in pace, etc.

Given their relative careers in GU history, their importance to their teams, statistics relative to other Gonzaga athletes both currently and historically, and even their national ranking.... YES, I do think Joe deserved the award more and in my opinion it was a very clear choice.

No male athlete in Gonzaga history has ever been 1st team all conference 4 consecutive years until Joe Miller accomplished that feat last fall. Some folks you might know have been close (:D ), but he is the first. That is significant and should have been recognized.

http://gozags.cstv.com/trads/all-wcc-athletes.html

lothar98zag
06-01-2007, 12:06 PM
correct me if im wrong, but almost every race joe was in was against competition with the likes of ewu, whitworth, idaho, wsu, eastern oregon, spokane CC, western baptist, highline CC, i cant even go on without laughing....

raivio set the school record for FTs, think of all the ex zags he passed... ...he competed againt WAY tougher competition throughout his career...


Just wanted to point out I think it's funny/ironic/whatever that on one hand you are putting down Joe based on his supposed level of competion and on the other hand you are pumping up DR based on his FT% - a stat he obtained during the only portion of a basketball game where the level of competition DOESN'T matter.

:D

<carry on>

Zag79
06-04-2007, 01:12 AM
a few things to sum up my feeling on this so i can let it go. ;)


Just wanted to point out I think it's funny/ironic/whatever that on one hand you are putting down Joe based on his supposed level of competion and on the other hand you are pumping up DR based on his FT&#37; - a stat he obtained during the only portion of a basketball game where the level of competition DOESN'T matter.

but he had to make a play against that greater competition to get to the line to set his record.

GU is a hoops school when it comes to sports, and thus weve had far better ballers than runners. raivios ability to crack the top 4 in so many impt categories with how good the past players were is much more of an accomplishment than a guy setting records at his school that wouldnt be records at many other schools. raivios record is the best of all time in the history of college basketball. he is college basketball's all-time career free-throw percentage leader at 92.7 percent (343-of-370) based on 300 made shots, that is accurate with NCAA.org. millers record isnt even good enough to place in the top 10 at the D2 prelims. so as far as biggest impact from a career record set you would have to vote raivios as the better of the 2. and again, raivio had to statistically compete with the greatest zags of all time on the hardwood to crack the top 4 in so many categories, where as joe didnt have the competition within the unversity to challenge getting himself there. lastly, everyone in the world that watched espn saw raivio and knew who he was when most people in spokane didnt know who joe was so as far as impt to the school dr was a bigger factor too. but your a runner f1, and thats why you feel so strongly about this.anyway, there both great athletes and deserve the rewards they receive.

a13coach
06-04-2007, 10:07 AM
a few things to sum up my feeling on this so i can let it go. ;)



but he had to make a play against that greater competition to get to the line to set his record.

GU is a hoops school when it comes to sports, and thus weve had far better ballers than runners. raivios ability to crack the top 4 in so many impt categories with how good the past players were is much more of an accomplishment than a guy setting records at his school that wouldnt be records at many other schools. raivios record is the best of all time in the history of college basketball. he is college basketball's all-time career free-throw percentage leader at 92.7 percent (343-of-370) based on 300 made shots, that is accurate with NCAA.org. millers record isnt even good enough to place in the top 10 at the D2 prelims. so as far as biggest impact from a career record set you would have to vote raivios as the better of the 2. and again, raivio had to statistically compete with the greatest zags of all time on the hardwood to crack the top 4 in so many categories, where as joe didnt have the competition within the unversity to challenge getting himself there. lastly, everyone in the world that watched espn saw raivio and knew who he was when most people in spokane didnt know who joe was so as far as impt to the school dr was a bigger factor too. but your a runner f1, and thats why you feel so strongly about this.anyway, there both great athletes and deserve the rewards they receive.

Zag79,
I think one should view the award as what did the senior athlete do for the university over their career instead of how the athlete is viewed nationally.
How did Stockton rate nationally his senior year against "lesser" D-1 competition? Did he even with the award? So I say to you like I said to F1D, to claim that Derek deserved the award by far over Joe or vise-versa is wrong. The Bulldog club had to make a difficult choice. Some agree with it others do not. I am sure it was a close call.
One thing I think that has come out of these discussions it that we all know more about Joe Miller's accomplishments, more about Derek's feats (was that possible on this board?) and a bigger appreciation of all successful athletes at GU.

former1dog
06-04-2007, 10:32 AM
there both great athletes and deserve the rewards they receive.


I appreciate you making that your final point, 79. Thanks.

Zag79
06-04-2007, 11:46 PM
but dr deserved the award a little more. :lmao: jk F1. ;)

BobZag
06-05-2007, 05:52 PM
Not to add confusion to the topic, but what senior had a better year than Mortensen? He carried the Zags to the brink of a WCC Championship, plus--

http://gozags.cstv.com/sports/m-basebl/spec-rel/053007aab.html

We could be watching this guy on ESPN's Sunday Night Baseball someday.

Zag79
06-05-2007, 10:38 PM
just when we thought it was figured out... ;) according to this

As it is given to a senior, I would suspect that part of the criteria is to consider that athletes entire career and his individual accomplishments. from F1 that would excuse Mortensen from the award race compared to joe and derek career wise. :D

former1dog
06-12-2007, 11:08 AM
In a follow up to an athlete brought up within this thread, Nick Symmonds formerly of Williamette University took on the world's best 800m runners (including the 2004 Olympic Gold Medalist) at the Prefontaine Classic this past Sunday and was victorious in a meet record time.

Of course, those NAIA guys aren't any good, though, right?


:jk:

Zag79
06-12-2007, 10:37 PM
:lmao: