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guniverse
05-17-2007, 12:20 PM
http://www.vootage.com/match/details/121

this is a link to a whole game of footage of austin playing in an all star game with some la talent. there is also an interview where they say he has a double double. i dont believe that is true because i think i counted something like 13 blocked shots in the game, and they were shots that were later controlled by him and he committed only one foul from what i can remember. his shot was a little off but when he hits it you can see how smooth it is. the only player playing defense was austin and players like uw recruit darnell grant tried to post him up and he just swatted him like four times. his lack of strength was not as evident as i would have imagined because he plays in the post a lot more than heytvelt and i definetly a power forward with the ability to take about anyone off the dribble and create his own shot. they make you sign up to watch the game but there were no gimmicks, i signed up watched it for free and that was it. i highly suggest watching it and can now see that someone on the team is definetly losing minutes this year to at least one of our freshman. ive watched gray a few times and believe he will be a great player, but austin already is,

CDC84
05-17-2007, 01:59 PM
It can't be stressed enough how good of a shotblocker Austin is. It's not just his unusual height and wingspan for a wing player, but also his technique. He never chops down, and his instincts are just there.

He's also going to be terrifying defender out on the 3 point line. If I were a 6-4 wing releasing my shot from 20 feet, the last thing I would want to see coming at me is that guy.

BobZag
05-17-2007, 05:22 PM
Daye being good in the post is music to my ears and at 6'10" with long arms I have to think he'll be nearly impossible to defend/block.

This team has a chance to be something special if all the pieces fall into place.

RebornZag
05-17-2007, 10:49 PM
I think I saw a different game than Guniverse. But it was the link he used, and Daye did play. My assessment is just different. He did have a few blocked shots. He seemed Ok on defense. However, he did not have a good offensive showing in this game at all, and he is not a low post player at all BZ, so I hate to ruin the music you hear. Daye, as you've seen in other videos, plays like a guard, and really likes to play out front at the point. He did hit a couple three's but missed most. I don't think he hit a bucket in the 2nd half, and I felt he really hurt his team with poor shooting. He was their Big Player, but he kept getting into the guards' territory. I saw NO MOVES at all. Basically, all he did was receive a pass, do a face up or square up move with a slight head fake and shoot a 3 over smaller guards. He must have been about 2-10 from the 3 pt range. He did throw some nice passes, has a good outlet pass, but honestly (at least in this video) I don't see him as a Power Forward for sure. And definately NOT a low post player.

Daye is an excellent dribbler. He dribbles like a guard. He is also very quick for a 6'10" player. But he will definately need to learn some moves. I didn't see one dribble, pull up jump shot the whole game. Just set shots, and a couple inside baskets off a pass once, and off some junk the other time. He isn't big like Josh. He's definately in need of a weight room. I think that right now it's going to be difficult to figure out how to use him. Could he be another Magic Johnson? I think he could be. A better chance there than say, Moses Malone. He dribbles and plays out front just like a point guard would want to. I think on a real team, he'd be ok because I saw how he played and shot much better on his high school team, but with All Stars he seemed to really conflict with the guards on his team.

I also DID NOT see a whole lot of energy from him. He did not strike me as very intense. I see a need for a whole lot of work. He will definately NOT be ready to start at the beginning of the year. He will contribute though as the season goes on. Can you imagine a 6' 10" guard? I think that's what we have folks. This is the backup guard I think many have been wondering about. I can just see Josh and him running the pick and roll. Or Pendo for that matter.

I am extremely high on Daye though. I see his potential as limitless. Mainly because of his excellence in handling the ball, passing, and is surprisingly very quick off the dribble. He just needs to be in the right place, on the right team, with the right coaches. And he is. Like Adam Morrison, he is NOT shy, and is extrememly confident. However, at least in this one game, he is not anywhere near the shooter Adam is, but I'm just hoping that that was an off game. This kid could be something very, very special. I know Mark Few has to be so excited about the potential.

MickMick
05-17-2007, 11:58 PM
I know that the TV types made some comments about Josh "taking the path of least resistance" and not assuming enough of an inside presence. Are we looking for Daye to fill that role? Or does Josh need to change his style? Where does Davis, Sacre and Poling fit into this concern over a post presence?

guniverse
05-18-2007, 07:34 AM
when i said he is a powerforward and plays more in the post than josh i was comparing him to josh not a true post player. i remember josh in high school and he brought the ball down the court much more often than austin did in this game. yes in the second half he shot a lot of threes that were way off, but in the first half he was the one scoring inside for his team off of put backs at least or being there for someone to dish to once they hit traffic. there were a tun of blocked shots, it seems like every two minutes there is a block shot or deflection. he does not play as much post as josh, but is more of a post payer in my eyes. he stayed in the middle the hole time on defense and close enough to the middle when he got back down court on time. he got more rebounds than just about if not everyone and i still tick with at least 10 blocked/deflected shots. the potential to do the same things against college players next year is what excites me. and yes the second half was nothing to get excited for, but the things he does well look like they will transfer over to the athleticism of high d1 players well.

MickMick
05-18-2007, 08:13 AM
I think we were very spoiled by Batista. Watching that wide body banging people around was entertainment in itself. It seems he was anchored to the paint. I rarely saw him further than 6 feet from the basket unless a designed play had him setting a pick. Once out there, he take a shot on rare occasion. But his inside threat (he was simply money from 5' in) gave Morrison much more floor to work with. In my opinion, his presence went a long way towards building the Morrison legend.


I took all of this for granted until I saw Josh last year. I am wondering if Josh will ever approach the discipline that Batista had. The description of Daye sounds much different than a Batista (no one ever praised his cross over). From the description, it seems that Daye will play with a style more similar to Heytfelt/Durant than Batista. And what I am looking for is that reliable inside guy that knows his role and plays it with rock solid consistency (Batista). For that reason, I am of the opinion that Zag prospects hinge greatly upon the emergence of Davis and Sacre. One of these guys has to command enough respect inside to create space...in the mold that Batista helped Morrison. But that is just my opinion :)

CDC84
05-18-2007, 08:51 AM
Unlike most everyone on this board, I have seen Austin play in competitive basketball games as opposed to these all star games, and I have done so in person. For the record, I do not evaluate players or even seriously consider anything that they do during an all star game. It is purely an exhibition game. They're neat to watch because they can give you a taste of what a player might be able to do, but it isn't a true organized game. Players do play differently in games that truly matter to them and are truly competitive and organized.

When I saw Austin play for the first time in a game that was organized and truly competitive, I saw a guy who did a lot of things that didn't occur in that video. First off, I saw a player that scored most of his points thru his mid range game and thru utilizing devastating spin moves in the post or out on the perimeter. I saw a player that only used the 3 point shot as a way of keeping defenders honest. I saw a player that got to the free throw line a lot more, and who canned those free throws at an astonishing rate for a high school player. I also saw a guy that was more active on the boards, and who passed exceedingly well for a wing man, even when his teammates were not talented enough to finish off the baskets.

The only thing that I saw in this game that I also saw him do in a real game was swat everything that came near him. That and the occasional lazy pass, which will be corrected once he realizes that those things result in steals and easy slam dunk opportunities at the D-1 level.

BTW...Austin is a wing player. He can take guys inside and do some damage in the post, as well as defend in the post, but he is a wing. I do feel he needs to get stronger though to be more of a force in the paint at the D-1 level. It's one thing to defend a fellow freshman-to-be like Darnell Gant in the post, but a whole other thing to defend a 6-10, 265 pound college senior who lives, eats and drinks in a weight room.

Last but not least...if you are expecting this kid to play with the visible fire of an Adam Morrison, you're going to be disappointed. He is a very quiet kid and not demonstrative on the court. Notice I didn't say he was not competitive, but he's kind of like Steven Gray....he has a very cool demeanor. This is why it was very important for the staff to bring a guy like Ira Brown onboard......a guy that is very vocal and has strong leadership qualities.

Angelo Roncalli
05-18-2007, 09:31 AM
CDC makes some great points, which dovetail with something Bob alluded to in his "art of recruiting" post; when analyzing evaluations of recruits, you have to consider who is doing the evaluation and in what forum are they evaluating the recruit.

You have to begin with the proposition that all evaluations are inherently subjective. You don't know what kind of bias or prejudice baggage the evaluator brings with him (does he favor point guards who are traditional distributors, does he favor uptempo v. control, has the evaluator been a coach, a player, or is just an ordinary fan, will he overlook serious flaws in fundamentals if a player has an extraordinary 3-point shot or dunking skill). There are a zillion variables. You also have to consider the background of the evaluator--did he go to UCLA and is he pimping UCLA recruits, for example.

Next, and maybe more important, is to consider the forum in which the evaluator is observing the recruit. There are four basic possibilities: high school game, open gym/pickup game, AAU game/tournament, and all-star game.

I think the best venue in which to observe a recruit is a high school game, even better if it's a game that's important to the player's team. You get to see how the player functions in an offense, how he interacts with teammates and coaches, his leadership abilities, and of course, physical talent.

All star games are the worst, with the McDonald's game being the chief offender. These games tend to favor the guards, because they're the ones with the ball in their hands the most. They're largely showcases of individual physical ability--sort of like watching Street Ball.

AAU tournament games are somewhere in between the first two, but there are huge variations in what's going on from team to team and the quality of coaching. For example, last year Rob Sacre played with a BC provincial team at the AAU tournament at Bellevue Community College. It was clear from watching the way the game was played that the BC team's coach was working with a group that hadn't played together much and that he was trying to get everyone on the same page, working toward the future, and in doing so, he wasn't so much concerned about winning games at the tournament, but with improving his team for future international play. He was clearly coaching his team to develop, not to win the tournament. Other AAU coaches simply roll the ball out and the best players dominate, without much focus on running an offense, developing teamwork, etc. [If Large William is reading this, he should chime in on what he's seen in observing hundreds and hundreds of AAU games.] Another thing about these tournament games is the number of games that may be played in single day, up to four. By the end of the day, things are pretty ragged. In my view, big time AAU tournaments are particularly suspect--and so are the evaluations coming out of big time tournaments. They are see and be seen deals for players and college coaches, and like all-star games, tend to be guard dominated.

Open gym/pickup games give you a chance to look at raw athletic ability. Maybe the best thing about watching players in these environments is you quickly see a player's weaknesses and shortcomings.

Then there's the most suspect "venue" of all, the highlight film. Almost worthless, IMHO. I'd much rather watch a grainy scouting video of a high school game than any highlight film.

ZagNative
05-18-2007, 09:34 AM
Great thread. Thanks to all.

23dpg
05-18-2007, 09:38 AM
Reborn, why are you ALWAYS so negative? Just kidding.

I do agree with CDC about allstar games. I don't like to watch them because they barely resemble real games.

Also, we should let the players be who they are. There will never be another, JP, AMMO, Casey, Dickau, Stepp............you get my point. Josh is a stud of a player. He could be a little more aggressive inside, but he'll never be JP, and visa versa. Same with Daye. I just hope that he developes into a major player by his second year.

sonuvazag
05-18-2007, 09:55 AM
This is a fun read. Like knowing a steak dinner is going to be served and having the waiter describe it excruciating detail. Mouth waters. Thanks for all. Can't wait to see these guys play. Especially appreciate your sentiments about Josh, 23dpg.

MickMick
05-18-2007, 10:58 AM
Reborn, why are you ALWAYS so negative? Just kidding.

I do agree with CDC about allstar games. I don't like to watch them because they barely resemble real games.

Also, we should let the players be who they are. There will never be another, JP, AMMO, Casey, Dickau, Stepp............you get my point. Josh is a stud of a player. He could be a little more aggressive inside, but he'll never be JP, and visa versa. Same with Daye. I just hope that he developes into a major player by his second year.

A good analogy is how a grandmaster approaches the game of chess. There are so many permutations/possibilitys that he cannot possibly predict 10 moves ahead with great precision. What he can do is recognize patterns of play and where they typically lead to.

There will never be another JP, but there are an abundance of players that fit his "pattern". From the description of Daye, he seems similar to a Durant type style. A 6'10" guy that can put it on the floor, pass, and shoot 3's (but lacking in the girth to take command of the space below the rim).

I am not suggesting that Daye become a Batista. What I am suggesting is that at some point, a player has to assume a role similar to Batista (as described previous). Again, I am of the opinion that the Zag success hinges directly with that role/"pattern" being fulfilled.

former1dog
05-18-2007, 11:03 AM
What I am suggesting is that at some point, a player has to assume a role similar to Batista (as described previous). Again, I am of the opinion that the Zag success hinges directly with that role/"pattern" being fulfilled.


Agreed.

Robert Sacre may be that player.

CDC84
05-18-2007, 11:26 AM
Regarding the problems with talent evaluation at AAU events.....

Part of the problem with AAU ball is that the kids play so many games that there is hardly any time for skill development, either individually or as a team. It's all about the games, getting thru them, and getting on to the next tournament. While there are some coaches out there fighting the good fight, even keeping their teams out of selective tourneys in order to focus on practicing and development, they're all fighting an uphill battle. It becomes so easy to roll out the balls and let your best players dominate.

AAU ball still suffers from the same problem that all star games do: the game results do not matter to people in the end. In other words, losing is of no consequence to the players. The difference will club basketball is that the worthlessness of the game results is primarily the result of the kids playing so many games in such a short time frame. There are AAU tourneys in this country where you can actually lose pool play and yet still win the event. No one ever feels losing, because there is another game in 2 hours, and another big time tournament the following weekend. It’s just one big blur.

The high school game is not only the best place to evaluate a player, it’s also the best place for a developing prep player to be. The games are organized and spread out, the coaches have time to coach (if they can), and most of all, the games truly matter to the kids at the school and to local community members. Yes, the kids are often playing with and against guys that aren’t nearly as talented as they are, and it is probably best to see a kid in both AAU and HS settings, but it is still the best venue for evaluating a player.

When Steven Gray played poorly in the state title game, and was seen visibly upset on the bench after the game, well, that is something that you will never ever see after an all star game or an AAU title game. NEVER. The lessons that Gray gained through that loss will serve him better than all of the AAU games he won during his entire prep career combined.

MickMick
05-18-2007, 11:55 AM
Regarding the problems with talent evaluation at AAU events.....

The high school game is not only the best place to evaluate a player, it’s also the best place for a developing prep player to be. The games are organized and spread out, the coaches have time to coach (if they can), and most of all, the games truly matter to the kids at the school and to local community members. Yes, the kids are often playing with and against guys that aren’t nearly as talented as they are, and it is probably best to see a kid in both AAU and HS settings, but it is still the best venue for evaluating a player.



I personally know of a situation where a very talented high school sophmore is beginning to emerge. I work with the father.

You present a fine argument, but it does not reflect some of the negatives. The primary one being the level of coaching. Especially at the small school level. I hate to say it, but there is some very poor coaching going on at the high school level.

I know of a AAU select player that is undergoing major conflict with respect to the difference of what the AAU coach wants and what the high school coach wants. It is so bad that the father is contemplating a move to a different community so that the kid does not become anymore confused. Obviously, the father agrees more with the AAU coach's approach.

The whole process has me looking at the Chief Sealth High School problems from a totally different viewpoint. When you have a kid that is a potential Div 1 player, it is only natural that you want to put that kid in the best position possible.

I'll give a specific example. The kid could be a great shot blocker. But being the dominate inside player for the high school, the coach will instruct the player to just stand there with arms up for fear of losing the player to foul trouble. The kid goes to the AAU club where they can rotate equally talented players in. The AAU coach comments to the father "Why is your kid so timid?" Father replys "The kid isn't timid, just coached not to block shots".

So the university evaluator up in the stands never gets the chance to jot down in the notebook "The kid is a terrific shot blocker" Further, it takes the AAU coach awhile to condition the kid to block shots, hence a delay for it to show at the AAU level as well. Meanwhile...poor dad is the only person that knows how well the kid can block a shot and desperately wants the Div 1 schools to see it.

a13coach
05-18-2007, 12:43 PM
I just want to throw in penny's worth about kids playing in HS. One thing to keep in mind is, "Is the kid playing in HS what would be their natural postion in college? i.e. Is a 6'4" guy playing PF because that is where his team needs him to be when in college he would be either a 3 or wing? So is that player developing the correct skills?

CDC84
05-18-2007, 12:52 PM
You bring up some great points MickMick. Frustrating, isn't it? There are lousy high school coaches too, and if you and your kid would like a change of scenery (that is, a change of HS), well, there are problems with that. You can't just transfer to any old place in many cases, even if the HS you're interested in is not that far from your home. There are district restrictions and such.

Regarding your example of the HS shotblocker.....the other thing about being a HS prep star is that you never get a chance to rest. You're always in the game, there are no TV timeouts, etc. So kids and coaches begin to develop the habit of preserving energy. It's not just about a fear of fouling out and hurting your team immeasurably, but also the fear of losing your energy at the end of the game when your team really needs you. A lot of these kids like Austin Daye are double and triple teamed throughout the entire game. It can be draining, and not really conducive to giving your full energy on both ends of the floor.

Regarding your point a13coach = that's also an issue with kids who go from college to the NBA. Patrick Patterson is a good example. He is a really nice power forward prospect, but many people believe his natural position once he moves on to the NBA will be at the wing. Yet there is a very good chance that most his minutes at Kentucky will feature him in the low post. Don't know if you could call Gillispie a bad coach for doing this. The ultimate goal is for UK to do what's best to win games.

RebornZag
05-18-2007, 05:10 PM
Yes! A good steak indeed is this thread...lol :D

Regarding my persona. Last year I was often accused of being a Polyanna, so this year I'm going for a little more balance and am working on being negative more. I must confess that it's difficult being negative when it comes to Austin Daye. It was nice to see he is human because I think more often than not he makes many outside shots.

My take on his performance in that All Star game is that he needs to work on moves more. I don't understand why he settled for that set shot time after time. Well, actually it was because no one was guarding him. To be a great player a ball player needs many moves as Adam had, and as Derek worked on finally this last year. It was good to see Derek work on a dribble jump shot, and driving to the hoop more.

I did make a statement about Daye not being shy like Adam Morrison. I am sorry for my miscommunication. I was NOT referring to their emotional nature. I was referring to their lack of shyness when it comes to shooting the ball. I don't think Adam EVER thought that there was a shot that he could NOT make, and I think Daye has that same kind of confidence. I've seen the spin moves in videos that CDC is referring to and was looking forward to seeing more of them in the video.

I not only believe that players can change their game depending on circumstances, but I think they must be able to. A great player can not rely on one kind of a game because as time passes defending teams will figure out the pattern and be able to stop you. That was so true of Raivio. He HAD to develop more of an offensive game. AND HE DID....to some extent. If a person lives and dies by the 3, that person and team in the end will fail. Your outside shooting will not ALWAYS be there for you. When it isn't you need to go to alternative games.

I don't think Josh worked well with coach Few last year. It was obvious that there was tension between the two of them. As the year progressed Few seemed to bend much more then Josh. And it was working out...to some extend. We must remember that Loyola Marymount beat us there, and one reason was that Josh was not hitting his threes. I have a gut feeling that Josh will go inside and score more next year. I think he will work on his inside game like he did not do before. He needs to do that. For himself and for the team.

Yes...I agree that we still may have a whole in the middle of this offensive team. I think we're gonna be much improved in the middle on D, and as has been mentioned, Daye is a very good. But we must admit that it is important to have an inside player on Offense? It keeps defending guards and wings from being able to play up close to our players. If we have a fantastic inside player the guards must sag off and help. Pretty much the way we have to do because of our lack of solid Defense in the low post. We often get killed by the opposing guards at the 3 pt line because of it.

I am really looking forward to seeing Davis play because he certainly can be that "tough" inside guy I'm looking for. I also think that Will Foster may help more this year...I still see potential there. I'm anxious to see him next Fall. And, yes...Sacre is going to be very good at some point....Maybe not next year...but he may be able to help us some..... And I will continue to be a voice for wanting and hoping Few signs a very solid power forward.

23dpg
05-18-2007, 08:55 PM
Reborn,

I was clearly taking a light-hearted jab at your very optimistic view of GU bb. You have a fun approach to the game, please do not try and be more negative. May I suggest switching the word negative with critical, as in critical thinking or critiquing. Or just stay as you are. We all have something to add.

RebornZag
05-18-2007, 09:30 PM
23dpg: I knew you were kidding. :D Mostly because of those capital letters. And also because no one would ever say I'm ALWAYS negative. Like I said...how can anyone really be all that negative when we have guys like Daye coming in next year.

I was actually poking fun at my antagonists who called me many things last year. Polyanna just one of them. It was really quite a year for a rookie poster. I think some people thought I had actually hired some of my students to post for me because I was setting records for not only number of posts but also lengths. They even developed a system here on this Board for people who didn't want to read any of my posts. They can just somehow keep my posts from appearing on their boad, and thus eliminating anything I might say from their "reveered" dialogue. Talk about being OPEN MINDED. In all actuality it has made it easier for me to express myself more freely because I know that no one (or almost no one) reads them. I'm actually shocked when someone like you replies these days to something I write. My father (now passed away) was English and I seem to have inhereted his dry sense of humor.

I am also writing a book, and I use this site to practice my typing, sense of humor and criticle thinking....it's a good place to practice and develop my style of writing....anyway...thanks for your kind words of support.

GonzagaLove
05-20-2007, 11:59 AM
Bottom line.....We all love our Zags.:)