PDA

View Full Version : Lets talk objectively about Point Guards



Colbyspapa
08-23-2010, 10:21 AM
I don't start a lot of threads, but have been reading a lot of comments this summer about new PG options. For those who are ready to annoint Carter our new PG, history shows that will not happen.

Unless Meech gets hurt, we will not have a new PG this season for what I believe to be our toughest OOC schedule ever. Carter, Morninghoff, Hyland and any of the new guys have never played a minute of D1 basketball. Do you believe Mark Few will trust them early in the season against Duke? Notre Dame, Kansas State, Illinois or any of the other games when he has a PG with 2 full years of experience behind him? No way. As long as Meech is giving coach Few 100% in practice, he is the guy. Meech will be better this year. You can book it. Few stuck with him through last year. My guess is he did it for a couple of reasons.

1. Meech pushes the game. At any time, he is very fast up the court. His change of speed puts defenses in bad positions. Even if he is not a huge threat form the outside, this is incredibly valuable for getting other people open shots.

2. He is a good (above average) defender. He has quick hands and has good anticipation. Hopefully he will have better vision this year helping his steal count rise. He also stays out of foul trouble by playing his style of D.

3. Few has seen Meech's offensive game in practice and believes its there. In the past 18 years, I cannot remember us having a PG who was incapable of big things from behind the arc. I don't beleive Meech to be the first to break this tradition. If he couldn't shoot, he wouldn't be here.

I don't buy the argument, we had not one better last year. If the coaches stayed with Meech after his rough games, it is because they know what he is capable of. We had 3 good backup guards on the bench all season last year.

I believe Meech will start every game this year and it will be really good for us. Nothing advances a team in the NCAAs more than an experienced back court. Look at Michigan State last year. The tallest starter was 6'8". Two senior guards took them to the final 4. Look at Butler, two senior guards took them within a minute of a National Championship. Look at Duke, two upper classmen guards played all but 5 minutes at the 1 and 2 positions.

We don't have a Blake Stepp, Derrick Ravio or Jeremy Pargo coming in. They are all good recruits, but this year I believe we will thrive under the strengths and flaws of Meech Goodson and I am pretty happy with that situation. Next year, when GBjr comes in, we will have a situation where a freshman will see a lot of time, but I don't see it this year.

As far as I can tell our PG situation looks like this:

Meech
Carter
Hyland
Stockton

Hyland and Carter can probably play the two as well but most of that time will go to Steven Gray.

Arop will probably live at the 3 spot with Morninghoff, Hart and Harris working in.

Dower, Sacre, Harris and Kelly are our 4 man force down low.

I don't know much about Kieta (sp) or even if he is coming. So there are still things up in the air for our squad, but I feel good about our guards.

ID ZAGFAN
08-23-2010, 10:28 AM
Nice analysis.

ZaGranny

BobZag
08-23-2010, 10:29 AM
Hart won't play PG. Did you mean Gray?
Keita is coming and could pinch hit at PG if he had to.

Colbyspapa
08-23-2010, 10:32 AM
Sorry BZ, too many thoughts going on about the subject, I did mean Gray, but he will spend most of his life at the two because he is our best returning shooter.

LynetteG
08-23-2010, 10:33 AM
kudos to the Meech love!

hooter73
08-23-2010, 10:41 AM
I unfortunately agree 100%.

Speed, defence, known quanitity, but most of all determination. Knowing the system is a big one that even a JC transfer will have to get on top of before he breaks the rotation. The thing we havent seen from Meech yet and what I'm really hoping to see this year is that if his shot isnt there, he makes up for it with assists.

Bouldin (not being a PG in my mind) was so good about if his shot was off he was doing everything else he could to help his team and teamates. Big sign of maturity and understanding.

good thread.

Drew
08-23-2010, 11:06 AM
I agree that Meech will (and should) start. Moreover, unless something major happens, all of the returning scholarship players, including PGs, will get more minutes than last year . . .

Given our losses, there should be more minutes available than usual for new guards and small forwards.

Semi-OT: How many players in the typical rotation?

webspinnre
08-23-2010, 11:08 AM
I think Meech starts, mainly because we don't have options with experience outside of him. I think Carter picks up extra minutes as he learns the system, and if Meech completely flops, or Carter shows more than I expect, Carter might get a chance to take the spot.

gamagin
08-23-2010, 11:13 AM
I think it's going to be the maturing, yet, steady handed person we witnessed in two winning NCAA games. My hope is he will stop trying too hard, find his game for longer stretches and employ his talent for leading, even if his coach was micromanaging him in mistrust (some earned, some unearned) and thus made him look lost and at times, handcuffed, which is not his nature.

However, when it counted, when all the "reliable" leaders, shooters, rebounders and upperclassmen, tended to fade at critical times (not always) as we advanced, this one, young man found flashes of his game, noticed he had to step up and did so, in the last NCAA game we won. He did this both as a freshman and as a soph.

As a junior, he IS the wily veteran now. And the p.g. The de facto quarterback, whose name is mostly discussed in disparaging terms by the Pundits in Training.

I just hope he is encouraged by Few to actually takes charge. I hope he believes it and does it.

I seriously doubt anyone is going to show up and just take his place. Not without a hellatious battle.

And if he somehow does find himself on the bench, it will be because someone even more tenacious, talented and trustworthy will have appeared on campus despite the odds.

If that happens, if someone else can really adjust like few before him has been able to do, well, I believe this man would be the first to admit it and adjust to it and play whatever role the Zags need to keep winning.

Because that's the way Meech carries himself.
__________________

cjm720
08-23-2010, 11:22 AM
I can't wait to see Meech on the court. I have a good feeling about this offseason progress...great thread, thx.

ZagsObserver
08-23-2010, 11:37 AM
I'm sorry, but Meech is bad at the staples of the point guard position. He is such a "non-threat" beyond the arc (and really anything other than a layup), that it hurt the entire offensive flow and the game down low. He also was unable to make the pass down low on numeous occasions. His ft% was abysmal, and he was often times out of control. Also, although the people on this board touted his defensive strength, he often overplayed his man, and his height hurt him when matched up with taller guards...the guy he was guarding almost always outscored him and out-assisted him...so he was a net negative in that regard.

Although I'd love to be unrealistic about the state of this position, I simply cannot do it...not after a full year of watching the pt. guard position hold GU down.

I don't want to bash him, and I will never start a thread to bash him. However, when we start heaping praise on every player, regardless of output, it cheapens the praise, and makes expectations unrealistic. It's like the teacher that gives everyone an "A". The point guard position will be the only weakness on the team, unless Carter is the missing piece.

jpwils
08-23-2010, 11:40 AM
Agreed that Meech should be better....agreed that he BEGINS the season as the starter. However....we need to not tell ourselves a story here. The Zags cannot reach the next level as a team unless our point guard is somehow, some way -productive on offense. Agreed that he is a more mature defender and should be excellent at stealing the ball. But any combination of Meech unable to score/Gray being off could be fatal UNLESS Carter is ready to step in at guard somewhere and CONTRIBUTE some offense. There will be some nites where this will kick in either due to injuries or performance. We should expect a few. Just cannot win consistently against top competition playing four on five!



Having said that I think 7-10 points most nites will be sufficient given the other scoring options we have available. We simply have to keep opposing defenses honest!

That is why it is urgent that Carter, Hyland , Monninghoff, and Keita get here and start assimilating in our system asap. The message is pretty clear from the staff- we intend to be fair to the incumbents, but cannot sacrifice the integrity of the system/offense for consistently sluggish performances.

Bouldin matured, improved, and produced-even with several injuries! Meech will be a junior starter and expected now to lead....not "someday when the
planets line up". I think he will respond to this challenge and will improve considerably!

U Zig, I Zag
08-23-2010, 11:50 AM
I think Meech starts from day one and Carter comes in quickly as the season progresses. I think Steven is going to be tired. Matt controlled the game a different way than Steven will - Steven's threat will be endless motion, running off picks and looking for holes to slash through and spots to pull up. We need an all around game from everyone, but I really think Steven needs the greenlight at all times.

Meech should be even better on D this year and with Steven already a stellar defender there is going to be a need for some energy AND leadership off the bench. This person will need to be able to create one-on-one and from the sounds of it Carter might be that player.

maynard g krebs
08-23-2010, 12:17 PM
1. Meech pushes the game. At any time, he is very fast up the court. His change of speed puts defenses in bad positions. Even if he is not a huge threat form the outside, this is incredibly valuable for getting other people open shots.

3. Few has seen Meech's offensive game in practice and believes its there. In the past 18 years, I cannot remember us having a PG who was incapable of big things from behind the arc. I don't beleive Meech to be the first to break this tradition. If he couldn't shoot, he wouldn't be here.

(1) is true in a transition game, but not if the opponent gets back Bennett-style instead of crashing the boards. The strength of next year's team will be post play, and to maximize that strength, the guards need to shoot well enough to be respected. They don't have to be able to come off screens, catch, turn, and shoot with a sliver of daylight in an instant like Dickau or Raivio, but they have to be able to make the D pay if left wide open so Sacre, Harris, and Dower aren't being doubled by the opposing pg.

(3) Remember Winston Brooks? The Zags don't get the recruits the elite get, and the staff does an incredible job of maximizing strengths, minimizing weaknesses, and player development. Meech certainly possesses the strengths you mentioned, but shooting is a weakness, exacerbated by a lack of confidence to pull the trigger. He looked afraid to miss when wide open last year, and passed up shots when unguarded.

I really hope he improves his shooting and halfcourt playmaking enough to be a key contributor in the offense this year. Last year with Matt and Steven, it was possible to hide Meech in the hc offense, and the staff did a good job of that. Without Matt, that becomes much less possible.

Meech will certainly be the starter in the noncon sched., but it will be interesting to see who gets the majority of the minutes. The staff hasn't brought in a JC pg in a long time, and the fact that they did speaks volumes. Having seen only a couple of minutes of Carter video, I won't make any predictions. But if Carter is as good as a little JC transfer from the Carribbean was, Meech is going to have to improve a ton to keep his job into WCC play.

Baldwinzag
08-23-2010, 12:38 PM
A solid, well-constructed post.

Unsure if the Meech vs the World topic needed another thread or so-called "objective" analysis as many have claimed before. . .

However, your eloquent post simply reiiterated and once again proved a widespread theory; Meech was the starter and most likely will be the starter this season --by default.

You mentioned we had quality back-ups at PG last season. OK, I'll have to assume you were referring to our only other listed PG's on the roster in Gibbs and / or Vilarino. How good were they? Where are they now? 'nuff said.

There is no doubting Meech is an 'above average defender' and 'pushed the ball/tempo' as you stated above. We see it every game and everytime he sprints up and down the court. Actually, while we're on the subject, I don't believe I've seen a single poster on this board claim otherwise or state Meech can't defend, isn't fast, or doesn't give his all, etc. Meech does good things on the court. He's the perfect spark plug in certain instance and can push the ball down the court with the best of 'em, yet hasn't proven he is an effective, true PG for an elite D-1 team. Not yet at least.

You are right that Coach Few didn't permanently go with any other options, because he simply didn't have any on the roster. We invested an entire season in Meech and gave him the benefit of the doubt above all else through b/c there was no one else to turn to.

Having said that, it was certainly clear Coach Few attempted early on(Mich St, anyone?) and in late-season games(Syracuse?) to give opportunities to GJ and GG, yet their play wasn't enough of an upgrade over Meech, so back to Meech we went.

I'm not sure how objective an analysis is when you state Meech "must be a good shooter in practice" or "has an offensive game in there somewhere". Heck, we all want to believe that and presume Meech can shoot or play within the half-court or why else would be playing so many minutes, right?

I feel much of your post was more proving your own doubts wrong or attempting to justify why Meech receives so much PT with so little results.

Can Meech shoot? Can Meech keep defenses honest? Can Meech play at different speeds and not just balls to the wall? Well, can Meech see the floor and not just in transition? Can Meech draw a 2-3 defenders away from our post players or even pass into the paint for that matter?

This season will be different for many reasons -- we actually have another PG on the roster who has proven he can play at a higher level than just HS. It will mix things up for sure.

I've said it before and say it again. Coach Few stated himself, "if Meech doesn't develop a shot or improve dramatically as a PG, his minutes will diminish. End of story."

I must be clear, I wish the best for Meech and hope he's taking 500-1000 shots be day and improving his post passing and passing in general, because from what I'm hearing, Keegan is shooting those shots and Marquise is "one hella of a post passer"--courtesy of Sam Dower.

Only time will tell. . .

ZagNative
08-23-2010, 01:35 PM
Really enjoyable and insightful thread to read. Thanks to all who posted.

BobZag
08-23-2010, 01:43 PM
A typical rotation is anywhere from 7 to 9. Any less and you are too thin to sustain the duration of a season, 7 is cutting it thin but I've seen good teams like Duke do it before. 8-9 is ideal. 10 is typically too much and nobody is in long enough to get any rhythm. There are exceptions, but 7-9 player rotations work well.

Colbyspapa
08-23-2010, 01:52 PM
Baldwin, I see your points.

Hopefully, the message of my post was "Meech will be our starting PG next year, all year". That is what I hoped to convey. Coach Few's history has been clear on this. He doesn't sit 2-3 year letterman for people who have never played in his system unless the incoming player is a world beater.

The coaches like what Meech brings otherwise, GJ and GG would have gotten more time last year. They were capable, and both shot better than Meech last year. The other option would have been Steven Gray playing PG.

There are many good points in this thread. Yes, Meech has a poor FT and 3pt % based on what we typically need in our point guard. Yes, his post passing is suspect at times. Yes, his height is a factor when playing against bigger guards. I didn't post that he is the best prototypical point guard. What I did say is "He is our point guard." If he is healthy, he will probably start every game this year.

The kid has heart. His ball handling is good. So we hope very much that the shot starts falling, because unless Carter has played two years in the Flex Offense at the JC level, it will take a while for him to get meaningful minutes at the PG. All that being said, if we get in trouble I can see Carter at the 2 and Steven playing the PG.

DixieZag
08-23-2010, 02:00 PM
One thing we can all agree on:

We will not be effective if our PG's defender is playing 6 feet from him, ready to help whomever the pass inside goes to. It looks like we will live or die this year by our bigs and Gray driving, both of which will be impossible against good teams if our PG's defender can double team inside. The only way that this team is better than last years is if there is a threat for the pass back out for the shot.

I would love that Meech fills that threat, he doesn't have to shoot like Stepp or Ravio, just enough to keep his defender honest. I would love to see this obviously sweet, hard working kid get there.

But there is no objective reason to think that the shot will change - he will be smarter, turn it over less, play D more effectively - but when a player is a consistently bad free throw shooter, there is no reason to think that he will develop a consistent three point shot or even improve his free throw shooting much. He will likely start the season. But, either he makes a leap that seems more like a dream or - one of the numerous guards recruited will take over the PG spot.

I think there is a chance that SG will play some point, and have one of our new pure shooters at the SG, Arop can shoot/and score, hopefully Carter is what he was brought here to be.

We do not need all american play from the point, we have a solid senior and some international grizzled veterans who will battle, one or two could rise to All-American discussion. the 2 through 5 will determine this season.

zag buddy
08-23-2010, 02:58 PM
During the ncaa florida game didn't Meech go 4 for 4 from the freethrow line. He thrives on pressure. Since Meech has been playing other teams do not challenge us on bring the ball upcourt. That is hugh. Some years we struggled wilth that. Who will be bring the ball upcourt when Meech is on the bench? I believe Meech is doing exactly what Mark Few has asked him to do. I believe Meech is following Fews request to the letter. What's is wonderful is if there is a matchup problem we have Carter. I hope Meech jolins Hyland for shooting drills every morning. Meech may not score as many points as the opposing guards but if you factor in how far below their average they are shooting, he looks pretty good.

originalcalzag
08-23-2010, 03:04 PM
A tough point guard arrived yesterday, who is a walk-on. He is athletic beyond belief and an incredible defender. He should have been CCS player of the year and almost was. From what I hear, he is a great kid who is extremely well liked from high school classmates. He helped my son quite a bit as a frosh baketball player last year. I know he would be a great Zag if he makes it.

Cal

CaliforniaZaggin'
08-23-2010, 03:24 PM
Let's talk objectively about Point Guards.

I thought this was a GU Boards... ?? ;)

NEC26
08-23-2010, 03:27 PM
Baldwin, I see your points.

Hopefully, the message of my post was "Meech will be our starting PG next year, all year". That is what I hoped to convey. Coach Few's history has been clear on this. He doesn't sit 2-3 year letterman for people who have never played in his system unless the incoming player is a world beater.

The coaches like what Meech brings otherwise, GJ and GG would have gotten more time last year. They were capable, and both shot better than Meech last year. The other option would have been Steven Gray playing PG.

There are many good points in this thread. Yes, Meech has a poor FT and 3pt % based on what we typically need in our point guard. Yes, his post passing is suspect at times. Yes, his height is a factor when playing against bigger guards. I didn't post that he is the best prototypical point guard. What I did say is "He is our point guard." If he is healthy, he will probably start every game this year.

The kid has heart. His ball handling is good. So we hope very much that the shot starts falling, because unless Carter has played two years in the Flex Offense at the JC level, it will take a while for him to get meaningful minutes at the PG. All that being said, if we get in trouble I can see Carter at the 2 and Steven playing the PG.

The point guard from Canada (his name slips my mind right now)lost his starting job his Junior year I believe it was. So its not like it can't happen.

sittingon50
08-23-2010, 03:31 PM
Pmac?

dim4sum
08-23-2010, 03:32 PM
doews this tough, walkon point guard have a name???? What's his background?

jazzdelmar
08-23-2010, 03:48 PM
thats a very scary scenario........

NEC26
08-23-2010, 03:53 PM
Pmac?

Yes thank you. I was getting him confused with Pmag and wasn't sure.

MickMick
08-23-2010, 04:22 PM
Can the Zags rack up 20+ wins with minimal contribution from Carter?

Certainly.

I look for another season of WCC contention regardless of who is at point.

Having said that, chalk me up as a Carter fan. My honest opinion is that the Zag's ability to beat the best teams on the schedule depend on Carter being as good as advertised.

Reborn
08-23-2010, 05:01 PM
I believe that Marquis Carter is the real deal folks. I see a lot of GU fans are in for a nice surprise. He's 6'4", which will be very nice. He's going to be able to see the court really well. He has high basketball IQ, he's a scorer and a passer. He can run an offense. You all need to do some research on this kid and find out WHY Mark Few recruited him. He's here to replace Bouldin the best he can (to me it means being the guy who steadies and runs the offense).

I think we will be as surprised by Carter as we were by Bautista. Some JUCO kids can really play. He was first team All-American, and scored 35 points in the finals. And some of you don't think this kid can play? I saw two of his games in the national tournament, and he looked GREAT. He is not selfish and is a very good passer. He knows how to get the ball to the low post.

I understand that Few has a tendency to not start Freshman. Well, look at Harris last year. Harris was 20 years old last year and I believe that's the same age as Carter. Carter is not going play like a 18 or 19 year old Freshman. JP also played his firest year at GU coming out of JUCO ball. I don't think it matters if Carter starts. Few is loyal to his players. But Few said publically that Meech will need to improve his outside shooting. I say that if he hasn't then the job is Carter's. We will see. But I think many of you have underestimatged Carter. I AM so excited to see him play in a Zags uniform.

alldaye
08-23-2010, 06:10 PM
Carter only gets 2 years though correct?

thespywhozaggedme
08-23-2010, 06:35 PM
Mr. Goodson, I presume? :p


I don't start a lot of threads, but have been reading a lot of comments this summer about new PG options. For those who are ready to annoint Carter our new PG, history shows that will not happen.

Unless Meech gets hurt, we will not have a new PG this season for what I believe to be our toughest OOC schedule ever. Carter, Morninghoff, Hyland and any of the new guys have never played a minute of D1 basketball. Do you believe Mark Few will trust them early in the season against Duke? Notre Dame, Kansas State, Illinois or any of the other games when he has a PG with 2 full years of experience behind him? No way. As long as Meech is giving coach Few 100% in practice, he is the guy. Meech will be better this year. You can book it. Few stuck with him through last year. My guess is he did it for a couple of reasons.

1. Meech pushes the game. At any time, he is very fast up the court. His change of speed puts defenses in bad positions. Even if he is not a huge threat form the outside, this is incredibly valuable for getting other people open shots.

2. He is a good (above average) defender. He has quick hands and has good anticipation. Hopefully he will have better vision this year helping his steal count rise. He also stays out of foul trouble by playing his style of D.

3. Few has seen Meech's offensive game in practice and believes its there. In the past 18 years, I cannot remember us having a PG who was incapable of big things from behind the arc. I don't beleive Meech to be the first to break this tradition. If he couldn't shoot, he wouldn't be here.

I don't buy the argument, we had not one better last year. If the coaches stayed with Meech after his rough games, it is because they know what he is capable of. We had 3 good backup guards on the bench all season last year.

I believe Meech will start every game this year and it will be really good for us. Nothing advances a team in the NCAAs more than an experienced back court. Look at Michigan State last year. The tallest starter was 6'8". Two senior guards took them to the final 4. Look at Butler, two senior guards took them within a minute of a National Championship. Look at Duke, two upper classmen guards played all but 5 minutes at the 1 and 2 positions.

We don't have a Blake Stepp, Derrick Ravio or Jeremy Pargo coming in. They are all good recruits, but this year I believe we will thrive under the strengths and flaws of Meech Goodson and I am pretty happy with that situation. Next year, when GBjr comes in, we will have a situation where a freshman will see a lot of time, but I don't see it this year.

As far as I can tell our PG situation looks like this:

Meech
Carter
Hyland
Stockton

Hyland and Carter can probably play the two as well but most of that time will go to Steven Gray.

Arop will probably live at the 3 spot with Morninghoff, Hart and Harris working in.

Dower, Sacre, Harris and Kelly are our 4 man force down low.

I don't know much about Kieta (sp) or even if he is coming. So there are still things up in the air for our squad, but I feel good about our guards.

thespywhozaggedme
08-23-2010, 06:40 PM
I don't start a lot of threads, but have been reading a lot of comments this summer about new PG options. For those who are ready to annoint Carter our new PG, history shows that will not happen.

Unless Meech gets hurt, we will not have a new PG this season for what I believe to be our toughest OOC schedule ever. Carter, Morninghoff, Hyland and any of the new guys have never played a minute of D1 basketball. Do you believe Mark Few will trust them early in the season against Duke? Notre Dame, Kansas State, Illinois or any of the other games when he has a PG with 2 full years of experience behind him? No way. As long as Meech is giving coach Few 100% in practice, he is the guy. Meech will be better this year. You can book it. Few stuck with him through last year. My guess is he did it for a couple of reasons.

1. Meech pushes the game. At any time, he is very fast up the court. His change of speed puts defenses in bad positions. Even if he is not a huge threat form the outside, this is incredibly valuable for getting other people open shots.

2. He is a good (above average) defender. He has quick hands and has good anticipation. Hopefully he will have better vision this year helping his steal count rise. He also stays out of foul trouble by playing his style of D.

3. Few has seen Meech's offensive game in practice and believes its there. In the past 18 years, I cannot remember us having a PG who was incapable of big things from behind the arc. I don't beleive Meech to be the first to break this tradition. If he couldn't shoot, he wouldn't be here.

I don't buy the argument, we had not one better last year. If the coaches stayed with Meech after his rough games, it is because they know what he is capable of. We had 3 good backup guards on the bench all season last year.

I believe Meech will start every game this year and it will be really good for us. Nothing advances a team in the NCAAs more than an experienced back court. Look at Michigan State last year. The tallest starter was 6'8". Two senior guards took them to the final 4. Look at Butler, two senior guards took them within a minute of a National Championship. Look at Duke, two upper classmen guards played all but 5 minutes at the 1 and 2 positions.

We don't have a Blake Stepp, Derrick Ravio or Jeremy Pargo coming in. They are all good recruits, but this year I believe we will thrive under the strengths and flaws of Meech Goodson and I am pretty happy with that situation. Next year, when GBjr comes in, we will have a situation where a freshman will see a lot of time, but I don't see it this year.

As far as I can tell our PG situation looks like this:

Meech
Carter
Hyland
Stockton

Hyland and Carter can probably play the two as well but most of that time will go to Steven Gray.

Arop will probably live at the 3 spot with Morninghoff, Hart and Harris working in.

Dower, Sacre, Harris and Kelly are our 4 man force down low.

I don't know much about Kieta (sp) or even if he is coming. So there are still things up in the air for our squad, but I feel good about our guards.

Despite your thread title, there's not an ounce of objectivity in your post. Meech had one of the worst assist/t.o ratio's in all of D1A, can't shoot, can't make an entry pass to save his life and has zero court vision. I'll leave it at that and hope he succeeds for the sake of the team. There's a lot of revisionist history going on here. Let me end my post by saying that I hope Meech proves me wrong, and I will be the first to admit it.

thespywhozaggedme
08-23-2010, 06:45 PM
+1, I think MC is the far superior player to Meech and eventually wins the starting position.


I believe that Marquis Carter is the real deal folks. I see a lot of GU fans are in for a nice surprise. He's 6'4", which will be very nice. He's going to be able to see the court really well. He has high basketball IQ, he's a scorer and a passer. He can run an offense. You all need to do some research on this kid and find out WHY Mark Few recruited him. He's here to replace Bouldin the best he can (to me it means being the guy who steadies and runs the offense).

I think we will be as surprised by Carter as we were by Bautista. Some JUCO kids can really play. He was first team All-American, and scored 35 points in the finals. And some of you don't think this kid can play? I saw two of his games in the national tournament, and he looked GREAT. He is not selfish and is a very good passer. He knows how to get the ball to the low post.

I understand that Few has a tendency to not start Freshman. Well, look at Harris last year. Harris was 20 years old last year and I believe that's the same age as Carter. Carter is not going play like a 18 or 19 year old Freshman. JP also played his firest year at GU coming out of JUCO ball. I don't think it matters if Carter starts. Few is loyal to his players. But Few said publically that Meech will need to improve his outside shooting. I say that if he hasn't then the job is Carter's. We will see. But I think many of you have underestimatged Carter. I AM so excited to see him play in a Zags uniform.

jazzdelmar
08-23-2010, 07:26 PM
To add that MG is by far the worst GU pg in a dozen yrs in insufficient and unfair, given the talent we have had at that position. But he would be less than adequate as a pg for fully half of the D1 teams. To just think he could be the starting pg of a team that aspires to the top 20, much less FF is utterly frightening. The young man simply has no pg skills.

TimZag
08-23-2010, 07:39 PM
Hart won't play PG. Did you mean Gray?
Keita is coming and could pinch hit at PG if he had to.
Really? I saw him at GEG (99% sure it was him)... looking at him you wouldn't think he could play PG well. Too damn tall.

Meech is an average jump shot away from being an effective PG.

kyle dixon
08-23-2010, 08:45 PM
Never want to see 4 v5 basketball again. A 10+ point lead against Wake quickly vanished due to our big gun's dismissal. (Harris). 3 possesions down the floor Ish (last name vanishes me dared Meech to shoot). Could not hit it. If Meech has improved that much and relishes the role to return and play the "1" great. If Marquise Carter is ready to play and beats out Meech, so the ball bounces. I personally feel we are looking at Carter as playing the "1" position next year. Only time will dictate my expectation.....

azzagfan
08-24-2010, 03:37 AM
doews this tough, walkon point guard have a name???? What's his background?

If he was from CCS (as was referenced), it would have to be either Zack Humphrey or Chris Pynch based on last season.

Both were good junior college players, but I don't think either will solve this issue.

SteelCityZag
08-24-2010, 04:53 AM
Mark Few has said that the Zags will be more of an inside-outside team next season. Makes sense with the returning bigs we have. The offense will have to go through Harris on most possessions.

This means many things for the offense, but for the PG position it will mean:

1) Entry passes must be crisp and delivered at the right time for the big men to be able to make their move. A pass too late into the post is as damaging as one that is inaccurate.

2) Shooting it well or finding the open man after the ball comes back out of the post will also be paramount.

Any players who struggle with these simple elements of this type of offensive system will find plenty of bench players nipping at their heels for floor time.

ronh_pm
08-24-2010, 05:01 AM
..and not just Meeches.

Meech did not have a great TO/assist ratio but with Olynyk, Arop and even Harris and Sacre, will also be better and should be putting up better numbers.

Yes it would be nice if he has improved his outside shooting, and it does present a chicken and the egg scenario (teams can double if they don't need to guard his shot) but if Olynyk and Sacre in particular can finish with higher efficiency, Meechs stock goes way up.

titopoet
08-24-2010, 06:34 AM
One thing we can all agree on:

We will not be effective if our PG's defender is playing 6 feet from him, ready to help whomever the pass inside goes to. It looks like we will live or die this year by our bigs and Gray driving, both of which will be impossible against good teams if our PG's defender can double team inside. The only way that this team is better than last years is if there is a threat for the pass back out for the shot.



You are right, imagine how successful a team would be with a starting PG that only shot 19% from 3 (20.9% career) and 40.7% FG and 62% FT(55% career). And with only 3.6 assists a game to 2.0 turnovers a game. There is no way that team could do anything in the Tourney with such a PG.

Yes, he brings defensive pressure, and his quickness presents problems to opponents, but against great teams like MSU, Syracuse, Kansas State, and Duke it would too much and they would figure out how to exploit the weakness and blowout a team with such a point guard. Just because he plays the role that coaches want, he would be too much of a weakness.

I mean take Butler that nearly won the national championship. Oh wait ... I am sorry the above stats are those their starting PG, Ronald Nored (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/players/82514). And the beat MSU, Syracuse, Kansas State and nearly beat Duke (should have beaten Duke).

Never mind.

My bad.

You can win with PG that brings defensive and offensive pressure, lets others be the playmaker if that what the coach wants, and plays the role the coach wants him to play. The PG depends a lot on personal the team has and Meech fits in exactly where Coach Few wants him to fit.

jazzdelmar
08-24-2010, 07:06 AM
What, you're favorably comparing Meech w Ronald Nored? How many Butler gms did u watch?



You are right, imagine how successful a team would be with a starting PG that only shot 19% from 3 (20.9% career) and 40.7% FG and 62% FT(55% career). And with only 3.6 assists a game to 2.0 turnovers a game. There is no way that team could do anything in the Tourney with such a PG.

Yes, he brings defensive pressure, and his quickness presents problems to opponents, but against great teams like MSU, Syracuse, Kansas State, and Duke it would too much and they would figure out how to exploit the weakness and blowout a team with such a point guard. Just because he plays the role that coaches want, he would be too much of a weakness.

I mean take Butler that nearly won the national championship. Oh wait ... I am sorry the above stats are those their starting PG, Ronald Nored (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/players/82514). And the beat MSU, Syracuse, Kansas State and nearly beat Duke (should have beaten Duke).

Never mind.

My bad.

You can win with PG that brings defensive and offensive pressure, lets others be the playmaker if that what the coach wants, and plays the role the coach wants him to play. The PG depends a lot on personal the team has and Meech fits in exactly where Coach Few wants him to fit.

cjm720
08-24-2010, 08:49 AM
What, you're favorably comparing Meech w Ronald Nored? How many Butler gms did u watch?


What, you don't get the purpose of his post? How many kittens have you killed this week? ;)

Bravo, Tito.

Go Meech, Go Zags!!!

hooter73
08-24-2010, 09:21 AM
..but if Olynyk and Sacre in particular can finish with higher efficiency, Meechs stock goes way up.

yes and no. its simple X+Y=Z math; if X is a PG passing and Y is a center completing then Z is assists. The more passes atempted = the more passes completed which = the more baskets made. Y is a fairly constant stat across the board so if X is not putting it out there as much, Z is lower.

and to think i hated math in school.

Inside will hopefully be stronger although the summer Canadian league numbers from our guys were somewhat underwhelming to me, and outside should be a bit better with Gray hopefully working his shot, the addition of Hyland if hes up to D1 speed, the euro imports and JC combo guards. I do think it will be a somewhat different game and Im looking forward to it.

Baldwinzag
08-24-2010, 09:49 AM
You are right, imagine how successful a team would be with a starting PG that only shot 19% from 3 (20.9% career) and 40.7% FG and 62% FT(55% career). And with only 3.6 assists a game to 2.0 turnovers a game. There is no way that team could do anything in the Tourney with such a PG.

----------------------------------------

I mean take Butler that nearly won the national championship. Oh wait ... I am sorry the above stats are those their starting PG, Ronald Nored (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/players/82514). And the beat MSU, Syracuse, Kansas State and nearly beat Duke (should have beaten Duke).

Point well taken.

However, this is only half the story---

Butler is a completely different style of team that runs an entirely different offensive system.

Their team averages less points, less assists, and less buckets per game than we do given their offense and spectacular defense.

Subsequently, Butler averages nearly half as many posessions in a game than Gonzaga does, due to their slow-tempo, half-court, grind it out style of play.

Given the number and system they run, Nored averages the same amount of minutes yet DOUBLE the assists(3.6 to 1.8) in an offensive style where opportunities are few and far between. Nored capitalizes on his patience and vision in the half court to get the ball to the playmakers underneath to score buckets.

Relatively speaking, Nored's stats are tremendously impressive considering the Butler offense scores 50-60 pts per game and utilizes the entire shooting clock to convert. Meech, on the otherhand, has twice as many opportunities to inflate his numbers/stats, yet has half the results in an up-tempo system.

Hard to compare apples 'n oranges, yet even when we take a brief look at the numbers, Nored's stats are far superior. In the same system, Nored might have 6 assists given the same amount of chances.

Of course, a simple eye-test would tell you, besides the semi-close stats, these two players play very different on the court and have completely different roles & effects on their respective teams.

Meech has a long way to go to play at the level of Nored, especially in a half-court seeting where vision, timing, and post entry passes are critical for success.

ZagsGoZags
08-24-2010, 10:31 AM
This thread exemplifies why I come to this Board at least once a day, even when traveling. High basketball IQ analyses, and I learn a lot.

zag67
08-24-2010, 10:34 AM
So here goes my put. I think that Meech starts out and it will be his job to loose. If he plays solid, gets the ball inside with crisp passes, and shoots the ball well enough to be a threat then he will still play major minutes. Then it wil be Carter, with his experience in shooting, passing and controling games. Even though it was JUCO, they still went to the finals. This means he does know how to shoot and get the ball to the right players in high level competition. Lastly we have Keita, who should also have a chance to compete and give them a rest or be another option if one of them faulters.

To me this means we do not really know, but the coaches have put the pieces together to give options for sucess. Now we have to wait and see who steps up and claims the minutes (I do not care who starts, but who is there at crunch time).

BobZag
08-24-2010, 10:40 AM
I saw Shelvin Mack at PG for Butler when it was crunch time, but I could be wrong. I was wrong once in 1971, but that wasn't my fault, I swear!

titopoet
08-24-2010, 10:45 AM
Point well taken.

However, this is only half the story---

Their team averages less points, less assists, and less buckets per game than we do given their offense and spectacular defense.

Subsequently, Butler averages nearly half as many posessions in a game than Gonzaga does, due to their slow-tempo, half-court, grind it out style of play.

Given the number and system they run, Nored averages the same amount of minutes yet DOUBLE the assists(3.6 to 1.8) in an offensive style where opportunities are few and far between. Nored capitalizes on his patience and vision in the half court to get the ball to the playmakers underneath to score buckets.

Relatively speaking, Nored's stats are tremendously impressive considering the Butler offense scores 50-60 pts per game and utilizes the entire shooting clock to convert. Meech, on the otherhand, has twice as many opportunities to inflate his numbers/stats, yet has half the results in an up-tempo system.



Huh?
Gonzaga avg 77.6 with 54.7 avg shots taken
Butler 70.1 with 50.2 avg shots taken

A difference to be sure, but 4.2 more shots is certainly not double the pace.
Second how would pace effect shooting percentages? Norad, a great player, still shot 19% from three, less than 50 from two and was a weak FT shooter. Also, Norad had higher minute avg. Further, the offense ran through Norad more than it did through Meech.

titopoet
08-24-2010, 10:58 AM
I saw Shelvin Mack at PG for Butler when it was crunch time, but I could be wrong. I was wrong once in 1971, but that wasn't my fault, I swear!

Actually, in crunch time, Butler ran the offense through Hayward. They would try and run Mack off screens.

1971, what happen...tell me you didn't...heaven forbid...no let it not be true... no, no, no, Bob...tell it is not true you bought and wore ...

BELL BOTTOMS!!!!


Tell that video is a hoax. Please, Please, Please, ... lie if you have to...but tell me that video is not you.

Oh the humanity of it. \\

maynard g krebs
08-24-2010, 01:57 PM
A couple problems with the Nored/Meech comparison:

Nored is statistically a poor 3pt shooter, but in the few Butler games I saw, he wasn't afraid to pull the trigger, and he hit some big shots. I don't remember seeing him unguarded. As an outside shooter he compares better with Pargo imo.

3.6 assists to 2 to's is nearly the ideal 2/1 ratio you want to see. Slightly better ratio than Dickau if memory serves. And Butler shares the ball so well that no one player is going to have a huge assist number. This ratio says good vision, good passer, good feel for the game. Which is what I see watching Nored.

Meech is a good defender. Nored is a great one, imo.

Ezag
08-24-2010, 03:21 PM
Coach Few stated himself, "if Meech doesn't develop a shot or improve dramatically as a PG, his minutes will diminish. End of story."


This is the only opinion that counts

75Zag
08-24-2010, 04:04 PM
I want the Bulldogs to win every possible game. I hope and trust that bickering and second-guessing about the point guard position will not affect the number of GU wins.

Having said the above, I am curious if anybody can find a (presumptive) starting point guard on a top 25 team with worse stats than Meech. I can't.

http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/gonz/sports/m-baskbl/auto_pdf/cumulative-stats.pdf

Go Bulldogs! Get bigger!

DixieZag
08-24-2010, 05:14 PM
No one on this board dislikes or wishes ill will toward a hard working good kid, on the other hand, this is high level D-1 basketball where scholarships get revoked and players transfer.

If Meech was doing an adequate job we would not be having these pie fights every other month. I stand by my point that I think there is agreement that our team will not be efficient offensively if our PG's defender gets to sag off of him 6 feet ready to help.

I don't care WHO the PG is, we just cannot have that. The proof that there is a problem is that fact that we debate it. No one debates Steven's worth, though he can be inconsistent, no one debates Harris, KO, Sacre, Arop eating minutes. I hope that Meech meets Coach Few's challenge; if not, I take Coach at his word that someone else will be playing.

thespywhozaggedme
08-24-2010, 05:19 PM
I saw Shelvin Mack at PG for Butler when it was crunch time, but I could be wrong. I was wrong once in 1971, but that wasn't my fault, I swear!

And who do you see running the point for us in crunch time? Hey, don't blame me, you went there. :D

DixieZag
08-24-2010, 05:26 PM
I was right, once, in 1991 - and the fact that it all went to h*** anyway cannot in anyway be construed as entirely my fault.

bigblahla
08-24-2010, 06:19 PM
And who do you see running the point for us in crunch time? Hey, don't blame me, you went there. :D

It's Carters job to win that's why he was brought in.

Go!! Zags!!!

dim4sum
08-24-2010, 06:51 PM
I don't remember Few issuing any kind of ultimatum about Meech improving his shot or else----can someone produce a link that brings up that quote? I just don't remember it and I tend to be all ears when Few speaks. Frankly, this upcoming season there will be no excuse for not juggling the lineup, since the team will be a lot richer in the backcourt.

MickMick
08-24-2010, 07:11 PM
There was a time when I thought PMAC had the inside track at being a starter for his final two seasons. Few played him such that you might get the impression he was being groomed for it. We saw what happened.

I don't think anything is set in stone at PG.

cjm720
08-24-2010, 09:48 PM
I've said it before and say it again. Coach Few stated himself, "if Meech doesn't develop a shot or improve dramatically as a PG, his minutes will diminish. End of story."

Link? Unless this was a personal conversation, it's fabricated or misconstrued.

Zag79
08-24-2010, 09:57 PM
I'm sorry, but Meech is bad at the staples of the point guard position. He is such a "non-threat" beyond the arc (and really anything other than a layup), that it hurt the entire offensive flow and the game down low. He also was unable to make the pass down low on numeous occasions. His ft% was abysmal, and he was often times out of control. Also, although the people on this board touted his defensive strength, he often overplayed his man, and his height hurt him when matched up with taller guards...the guy he was guarding almost always outscored him and out-assisted him...so he was a net negative in that regard.

:lmao: zzz... oh, im sorry i fell asleep reading a repeat of the same ol kind of post regarding meech and the pg postition that always comes up. first the obvious... does meech need to improve his shot from 3? sure. does he need to be better at the line? yeah. the whole team does if you ask me. but the rest of your post is fictional at best. i watched every game, most of them twice. live from my seat at home games and then the replay when i got back, and road games too. i dont recall meech doing much of what you stated, especially on defense. i find it really interesting you disagree with mark few and jim boeheim, who have both stated how good meech is on d. the best player we had against cuse. as far as the entry pass issue, meech handed the ball over to bouldin most of the time after getting it across half court. so that would mean the guards in general had a problem getting it inside, and YES i saw them all miss the bigs after rob, harris, or even foster had position. as for head to head stats... considering we play alot of zone, its really hard to compare "so and so" vs the other teams guy. thats just trying to point the finger if you ask me. can he and will he improve? im positive we will see a meech that does what we need, this will be his first true run at controlling the team. my hope for meech is that he can improve his 3 point shot to keep the defender honest, make a few more fts, and the rest is all good. dont forget he was a freshman who didnt get much time at all, and as a sophmore was behind one of the zag greats. when bouldin was out for a whole game (davidson) meech handled it just fine, and also had some other great performances when we desperately needed them. i for one cant wait to see him step it up this year.

ZagNative
08-24-2010, 10:01 PM
BaldwinZag said:

I've said it before and say it again. Coach Few stated himself, "if Meech doesn't develop a shot or improve dramatically as a PG, his minutes will diminish. End of story."


Link? Unless this was a personal conversation, it's fabricated or misconstrued.

BaldwinZag is a plenty smart poster here and one whose opinion and analysis I value. However, I too am curious as to whether you have a link, because while I've heard Mark Few say Meech's shooting needed to improve, I have not heard him say that if it didn't, his minutes would diminish. Not saying he didn't say the statement you attributed to him, I'd just like to make sure you weren't paraphrasing, putting words in his mouth based on perhaps faulty recollection.

Zag79
08-24-2010, 10:08 PM
and even if that was said, thats obvious on any level of hoops. if a player cant put the ball in the hole, they lose time. these posts are making this board lose its spot in the limelight for good hoops info. and no offense baldwinzag, i too enjoy your posts so this is in "general" not directed at you.

JohnOGU
08-24-2010, 11:21 PM
Anybody who can hold their own against the Jeremy Pargo of now has my vote. If Meech isn't up to par, Marquise certainly will be it sounds like.

jim77
08-25-2010, 12:56 AM
The damage from the 2010-11 Zags is gonna come from the 3-4-5 guys. I believe our 4/5 guys are as good as any in college hoops. If there was ever a time for a PG with skills, its now. My coach one told me this: "The #1 job of the PG is to make everybody around him better." Carter was brought in for a reason. I think BOTH Meech and Carter are gonna get good minutes...in fact I think they kinda compliment each other. There are times when Meech would be employed and other times Carter. I do think the 3-4-5 personnel favor Carter. However, if Meech improves his shot and uses his speed for drive and dish.....he's gonna be a handful. I do feel a whole lot better about the PG situation with BOTH though.

BroncoZAG615
08-25-2010, 06:02 AM
Anybody who can hold their own against the Jeremy Pargo of now has my vote. If Meech isn't up to par, Marquise certainly will be it sounds like.

This is all that really needs to be said on the subject. I believe Meech's role will be dramatically different this season as opposed to last. Matt ran the show, now it is Meech's turn. If he stinks up the joint, Marquise will be called on. I'll always maintain that Meech was merely a defensive specialist last year that was in mainly for energy and played typically around half the game and never really had a serious impact. Sure, there were games you had to watch him with a hand over your eyes but there were also games where he proved to have so much worth once he settled in on offense and just relaxed.

The amount of blame he has gotten for last season is uttery laughable when you consider some of the other variables. Poor on-court leadership, painfully slow starts, and inconsistent veterans were my main issues with last season and I honestly look forward to seeing what Demetri can do as the leader. I think he absolutely has the "want-to" and is a guy I'm glad we have on our side.

Regardless, we still have Elias Harris who could probably bring the ball up as well so there's always that option. :D

gamagin
08-25-2010, 07:03 AM
This is all that really needs to be said on the subject. I believe Meech's role will be dramatically different this season as opposed to last. Matt ran the show, now it is Meech's turn. If he stinks up the joint, Marquise will be called on. I'll always maintain that Meech was merely a defensive specialist last year that was in mainly for energy and played typically around half the game and never really had a serious impact. Sure, there were games you had to watch him with a hand over your eyes but there were also games where he proved to have so much worth once he settled in on offense and just relaxed.

The amount of blame he has gotten for last season is uttery laughable when you consider some of the other variables. Poor on-court leadership, painfully slow starts, and inconsistent veterans were my main issues with last season and I honestly look forward to seeing what Demetri can do as the leader. I think he absolutely has the "want-to" and is a guy I'm glad we have on our side.

Regardless, we still have Elias Harris who could probably bring the ball up as well so there's always that option. :D

The leader is the fellow with the ball.

I hope we have five leaders, each of whom knows what to do with the ball whenever its in his hands, when to shoot and when not to shoot, when to take a calucluated risk and when not to, and does just that. Just like Butler did in its run last year.

It's never been about just one guy, except in the minds of a relentless few here.

Reborn
08-25-2010, 09:55 AM
To say that someone's role in basketball at the D1 level is "just" to play Defense is odd in my opinion. And to say Meech did NOT hurt the Zags because he could NOT shoot from the outside says to me that the person who said that watches the game with blinders on,, and doesn't real what Few sayin in public. come on BroncoZag. You're smarter than that.

BroncoZAG615
08-25-2010, 10:21 AM
To say that someone's role in basketball at the D1 level is "just" to play Defense is odd in my opinion. And to say Meech did NOT hurt the Zags because he could NOT shoot from the outside says to me that the person who said that watches the game with blinders on,, and doesn't real what Few sayin in public. come on BroncoZag. You're smarter than that.

Everytime I approach this subject, this sort of thing always happens where my argument is cut and dried into this. I never said he was out there just for defense. I said it was his main role on the court. He wasn't out there to run the offense which is what a 'typical' PG is supposed to do. Matt ran the offense. Meech simply brought the ball up and handed it off to him. He won't have that luxury this year.

I also didn't say Meech never hurt the team, I just don't think he warrants all the blame he does receive from the continuous bashers around these parts. I by no means am a huge Meech defender in the everyday world but some of the stuffed spewed here is utterly insane but I think the key to a successful Gonzaga team is players that can actually D up like Meech can.

I must be missing all these Few quotes in the paper. Everytime I heard Mark talk he said "Meech is a guy we love out there because he's tough, throws his body around, etc." I never once heard him say "boy, we love having Meech out there because he is our lead distributor and can pass around the defense".

MDABE80
08-25-2010, 10:43 AM
Like Meech or not like his play, one thing is outstandingly clear: 4 on 5 won't work this year when it comes to offense. If he's a non issue on offense, it'll be 4 on 5 like last year....we'll still win 20 but the NCAA experience will be short lived.
Good defense wins games. We do need offense though...even a good passer and facilitator. If Meech returns as the same ole guy we had when we last saw him, Few's hand will be forced. Few's loyal to a fault though. Here's hoping Meech did a "Rotnei" this off season and shot 700 balls each day....and slept with a basketball so basketball skill type things were always in his head.

BroncoZAG615
08-25-2010, 11:20 AM
Like Meech or not like his play, one thing is outstandingly clear: 4 on 5 won't work this year when it comes to offense. If he's a non issue on offense, it'll be 4 on 5 like last year....we'll still win 20 but the NCAA experience will be short lived.
Good defense wins games. We do need offense though...even a good passer and facilitator. If Meech returns as the same ole guy we had when we last saw him, Few's hand will be forced. Few's loyal to a fault though. Here's hoping Meech did a "Rotnei" this off season and shot 700 balls each day....and slept with a basketball so basketball skill type things were always in his head.

Couldn't agree more. He's got to be better on offense because he's now (or should be) the lead playmaker. If not, like JohnOGU said, Marquise seems capable to take the reins.

Kiddwell
08-25-2010, 11:34 AM
The Point Guard of Kiddwell's Dreams:
(1) Plays five-on-five defense*
(2) Makes the opposition play five-on-five defense**

:]





*Translation: Is a stopper
**Translation: Can pass, slash, and shoot

U Zig, I Zag
08-25-2010, 12:27 PM
which one is Meech again?


We will know by the 3rd game what is going to happen. I have stated before it will be a shared duty with DM and MC with MC maybe taking up more minutes as the season goes on (in part, relieving Steven who shouldn't have to play every dang second - it wears those kids out, look at Matt).

Meech has improved, I am sure of it. His real specialty is speed/tempo and fly in the ointment defense. His greatest attribute is that his heart is in the right place and he has that fire (seemed like our biggest guy would often seperate our littlest guy from opposing teams when things got testy).

Meech isn't leaving, he will start (most likely) and he will be better at all the facets of the game than he was last year. Matt had to do too much and now we can get more guys involved this year and it will help everyone.

Meech would be insanely dangerous with a 10-12 foot, full-speed to full-stop pull up J. If his court vision improves he can watch for trailers (let's face it, they are ALL trailers when Meech pushes it - on after the basket inbounds he will often beat the defenders up the court). They may give him 6 feet of space at the 3 point line, but if 42% of the time he can dribble 2 feet in and hit it, then the game changes. If 65% of the time he can dribble 2 feet in either shoot OR see the guy cutting to the hoop and get a clean pass he becomes very dangerous.

It doesn't matter much in the WCC since GU seems to outclass most the teams athletically but in non-conf games Meech can act like a one-man press breaker.

Zag79
08-25-2010, 09:11 PM
This is all that really needs to be said on the subject. I believe Meech's role will be dramatically different this season as opposed to last. Matt ran the show, now it is Meech's turn. If he stinks up the joint, Marquise will be called on. I'll always maintain that Meech was merely a defensive specialist last year that was in mainly for energy and played typically around half the game and never really had a serious impact. Sure, there were games you had to watch him with a hand over your eyes but there were also games where he proved to have so much worth once he settled in on offense and just relaxed.

The amount of blame he has gotten for last season is uttery laughable when you consider some of the other variables. Poor on-court leadership, painfully slow starts, and inconsistent veterans were my main issues with last season and I honestly look forward to seeing what Demetri can do as the leader. I think he absolutely has the "want-to" and is a guy I'm glad we have on our side.



Everytime I approach this subject, this sort of thing always happens where my argument is cut and dried into this. I never said he was out there just for defense. I said it was his main role on the court. He wasn't out there to run the offense which is what a 'typical' PG is supposed to do. Matt ran the offense. Meech simply brought the ball up and handed it off to him. He won't have that luxury this year.

I also didn't say Meech never hurt the team, I just don't think he warrants all the blame he does receive from the continuous bashers around these parts. I by no means am a huge Meech defender in the everyday world but some of the stuffed spewed here is utterly insane but I think the key to a successful Gonzaga team is players that can actually D up like Meech can.

I must be missing all these Few quotes in the paper. Everytime I heard Mark talk he said "Meech is a guy we love out there because he's tough, throws his body around, etc." I never once heard him say "boy, we love having Meech out there because he is our lead distributor and can pass around the defense".

someones computer must think its controller is a genius. great posts, couldnt have said it any better. go meech, go zags!

bballbeachbum
08-27-2010, 06:57 AM
someones computer must think its controller is a genius. great posts, couldnt have said it any better. go meech, go zags!

if he hits the circle jumper consistently, look out. all of the sudden, he will have vision because defenders will have to guard him, and passing lanes and driving lanes that were not there before will suddenly be there, etc.

I know everyone loves Matt here, and so do I, but his diminished play down the stretch, whether from injury or from just being generally worn down and beat up, hurt last year's team as much as anything did. Does he get bashed, too?

oh boy, this ought to get some nasty responses

dim4sum
08-27-2010, 01:10 PM
Taller guards took Meech to the cleaners. His vaunted defense was much a product of wishful-thinking. It just didn't happen that way. His steal stats,one way of quantifying D, were absolutely nothing to rave about for a PG in a successful division one program. Given the seniority system Few employs, the starting job is Meech's to retain or lose. My bet, as well as most of the posters here, is that he loses it to Carter or some other underdog, i.e., Kieta, Maine Man, Hart, or, on the outside rail, closing fast, Stockton.

bigblahla
08-27-2010, 05:39 PM
I don't remember Few issuing any kind of ultimatum about Meech improving his shot or else----can someone produce a link that brings up that quote? I just don't remember it and I tend to be all ears when Few speaks. Frankly, this upcoming season there will be no excuse for not juggling the lineup, since the team will be a lot richer in the backcourt.

I read it in an article don't remember when or where, I believe it came as a quote from a radio interview just not sure but I saw it before it was posted here. Baldwin didn't make it up.

GO !! Zags!!!

MickMick
08-27-2010, 05:49 PM
I read a quote from Few where he said that Carter would "shore up" the position.

You can interpret that any way you want to.

My interpretation?

The position needs "shoring up."

bballbeachbum
08-30-2010, 08:51 AM
I read a quote from Few where he said that Carter would "shore up" the position.

You can interpret that any way you want to.

My interpretation?

The position needs "shoring up."

here's the quote to which you refer I think, from espninsider

http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/insider/news/story?id=5454847

Welcome to Campus

Marquise Carter, 6-foot-4 combo guard (juco transfer)
When Few describes what Carter can do well, it sounds like a description of what Gonzaga will be missing from Matt Bouldin, who led the team in scoring last season at 15.7 points per game. While Bouldin is trying to latch on with the Chicago Bulls, Carter could be filling multiple roles. "He shoots it well from 3, he's a good passer, a solid penetrator," said Few. "He really has a complete game. He should shore up a lot of areas."

it's not anti-Carter to be pro Meech

Zag79
08-30-2010, 09:43 PM
Taller guards took Meech to the cleaners. His vaunted defense was much a product of wishful-thinking. It just didn't happen that way. His steal stats,one way of quantifying D, were absolutely nothing to rave about for a PG in a successful division one program. Given the seniority system Few employs, the starting job is Meech's to retain or lose. My bet, as well as most of the posters here, is that he loses it to Carter or some other underdog, i.e., Kieta, Maine Man, Hart, or, on the outside rail, closing fast, Stockton.

interesting. considering in our losses meech was a 50% shooter, did he really get "taken to the cleaners"? matt and gray were 8 for 29 against mich st. against duke they were 4-15, matty 1-7. in our loss against san francisco (shudder), matt and gray were 8-26 while meech 4 for 5. they were 7 for 26 in our terrible loss to LMU (wow. really?) and meech was 5-9. in almst every loss we had meech played well, even better than our 2 go to players at times. give it a rest, his play last year helped us as much as it hurt us. he still has two full seasons as the main PG to show his stuff, my money is on a couple big years.