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View Full Version : An offshoot thread: '98-'99 Zags vs '09-'10 Zags



former1dog
05-25-2010, 08:33 AM
Who wins in a 7 game series, the '98-'99 Elite 8 Zags or the '09-'10 Zags?

For arguments sake, lets assume a fully healthy roster for both squads, each at the peak of their powers.

Have fun.

SteeleMan
05-25-2010, 10:37 AM
98-99 team hands down. They would hit 13-18 three point baskets and win running away.

former1dog
05-25-2010, 10:39 AM
98-99 team hands down. They would hit 13-18 three point baskets and win running away.

So, 4 games to 0 in a 7 game series then?

Once and Future Zag
05-25-2010, 10:45 AM
I don't think it would be quite that clear-cut, though I suspect the '99 team would win a best of 7, but not a sweep, maybe 4-2?

I can't see Matt B, Steven, Elias and Rob all being dominated 4 games in a row by anyone.

As a side note, I think the (posited fully healthy) '09 Zags would take a 7 game series from either of them.

ETA: that is to say - these are all very good teams.

FlyZag
05-25-2010, 10:48 AM
'99 wins in 5 games. 4-1. The lack of outside shooting from the '10 team isn't overcome by the strength of their inside game. FT% hurts. The '10 bigs are prone to foul trouble and sit for big stretches of games allowing the excellent guard play of the '99 team to take over.

SteeleMan
05-25-2010, 11:05 AM
So, 4 games to 0 in a 7 game series then?

In otherwords... read my entire question, dummy? :p

As hot as the 99 team was at tourney time, I could see a 4 games sweep. But the heart of any current team wouldn't allow that. 99 wins the series in 6 games.

CDC84
05-25-2010, 11:05 AM
It's not related to the topic, but it's interesting to note that the 1999/2000 Zags (sweet 16) were a worse foul shooting team than the 2009/2010 Zags. 66.5% compared to 66.4%.

Ekrub
05-25-2010, 11:20 AM
http://www.gozags.com/sports/m-baskbl/archive/092999aab.html

This is the 98-99 team. That team was awesome yes, but no where near the level of the guys that we have playing for Gonzaga now.

I'd say 09-10 would win 4-1.

jazzdelmar
05-25-2010, 11:34 AM
99ers win as many as 7 of 10.....only one current player, harris, is clearly superior to his 99 counterpart......gray is a nice player but no richie frahm, casey bests any of the new bigs and, well, matt is aeons better than what appears to be a new york rush hour subway car full of pt guards and neo pt guards for the yr ahead......and the 99 bench just brings too much character and hustle vs the new fellas.....not close

former1dog
05-25-2010, 11:44 AM
If I have to pick a team to win one game, I'm going with the '98-'99 team.

If I have to pick between these two teams to win a 7 game series, I'm going with the '09-'10 team, with exhibit a being the Maui Classic this past year.

My answer to my own question, '09-'10 team wins in 5 games.

Game 1 goes to 1999 team in a relatively close battle. Each successive game would get a little worse for 99ers as the more recent teams size(read bulk) wears on and wears out the 99ers.

Plus, I think Few outcoaches Monson over a 7 game series. :D ;)

cjm720
05-25-2010, 11:44 AM
3 point shooting and cohesiveness would give the older team the series. I'd say 4-2. Our team last year was simply just young save MB.

Ezag
05-25-2010, 11:52 AM
99 team 4-2. The newer teams never fared well against 3point teams when the shots are falling

Once and Future Zag
05-25-2010, 12:11 PM
99ers win as many as 7 of 10.....only one current player, harris, is clearly superior to his 99 counterpart......gray is a nice player but no richie frahm, casey bests any of the new bigs and, well, matt is aeons better than what appears to be a new york rush hour subway car full of pt guards and neo pt guards for the yr ahead......and the 99 bench just brings too much character and hustle vs the new fellas.....not close

Dude, I have no idea how you're making comparisons.

Gray vs Frahm
Meech vs Matt S
Harris > ?
Casey > ?
Sacre vs Eaton (Center vs Center)
Bouldin vs Hall (PG-ish vs PG)

I'd say Matt's pretty clearly better than Q, and I'd take Rob over Jeremy by a hair.

kitzbuel
05-25-2010, 12:16 PM
Who wins in a 7 game series, the '98-'99 Elite 8 Zags or the '09-'10 Zags?



Da Bears.

jazzdelmar
05-25-2010, 12:22 PM
Dude, I have no idea how you're making comparisons.

Gray vs Frahm
Meech vs Matt S
Harris > ?
Casey > ?
Sacre vs Eaton (Center vs Center)
Bouldin vs Hall (PG-ish vs PG)

I'd say Matt's pretty clearly better than Q, and I'd take Rob over Jeremy by a hair.



duh, i was comparing vs NEXT yrs team.....still, 7 of 10

2wiceright
05-25-2010, 01:12 PM
duh, i was comparing vs NEXT yrs team.....still, 7 of 10

The 2010-2011 team is a whole other matter. Just based on the improvement of an almost intact second round tourney team, with added players to address last years weaknesses, I would give the advantage to the '10-'11 team.
'99 team loses 4 out of 7. Guards are a wash (hopefully) and inside is too strong on the improved version of last years team!

kitzbuel
05-25-2010, 02:10 PM
The 09-10 bench I think is better than the 98-99 bench. Olynyk, Arop and Kong were better when compared to Dench, Floyd and Nilson.

While recording less minutes the top three 09-10 bench players provided more rebounds per minute, more points per minute and shot better.

09-10 vs 98-99
Overall minutes
1176 vs 1552

Rebounds/min
258 vs 279
.219 rebounds/min vs .180 rebounds/min

Pts/min
375 vs 480
.318 pts/min vs .309 pts/min

Shooting percentage
48.5% vs 46%

former1dog
05-25-2010, 02:39 PM
While recording less minutes the top three 09-10 bench players provided more rebounds per minute, more points per minute and shot better.

While playing against arguably tougher competition?

bigparb
05-25-2010, 04:46 PM
98-99 sweeps!!

Game 1

09-10 Gonzaga at 98-99 GonzagaFinal - 5/25/2010 1st 2nd Total
09-10 Gonzaga 38 31 69
98-99 Gonzaga 60 30 90

09-10 Gonzaga
MIN FGM-A 3PM-A FTM-A REB AST BLK STL TO PF TP
Steven Gray* 32 4-9 2-5 4-6 6 4 1 1 2 1 14
Matt Bouldin* 29 4-10 0-4 3-4 2 4 0 1 3 0 11
Elias Harris* 28 5-12 0-3 4-4 7 0 1 0 0 2 14
Demetri Gon* 26 3-7 0-2 5-5 0 1 0 1 2 3 11
Robert Sacre*24 2-5 0-0 2-2 2 0 0 3 2 2 6
Bol Kong 15 1-3 0-1 0-0 0 1 0 1 1 1 2
Mangisto Arop 13 0-2 0-0 1-3 3 0 0 1 1 2 1
G.J. Vilarino 11 0-1 0-0 2-2 1 1 0 0 1 2 2
Kelly Olynyk 9 1-4 0-0 2-2 4 2 1 0 0 0 4
Will Foster 9 2-3 0-0 0-2 1 0 0 0 0 2 4
Michael Hart 3 0-1 0-1 0-0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0
Grant Gibbs 1 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
TOTALS 200 22-57 2-16 23-30 27 14 3 9 12 15 69
38.6% 12.5% 76.7%

* - denotes game starter

98-99 Gonzaga
MIN FGM-A 3PM-A FTM-A REB AST BLK STL TO PF TP
Matt Santangelo* 32 3-6 3-4 4-4 6 8 0 0 3 4 13
Quentin Hall* 29 6-11 1-4 1-2 1 3 0 4 4 2 14
Jeremy Eaton* 26 3-6 0-0 4-6 6 2 0 0 2 3 10
Richie Frahm* 26 7-10 2-3 2-2 4 1 0 1 2 0 18
Casey Calvary* 23 4-6 0-0 0-0 6 1 2 1 2 4 8
Axel Dench 14 4-7 2-3 2-3 4 0 0 0 1 1 12
Ryan Floyd 14 2-4 1-2 1-2 2 2 0 0 0 0 6
Mike Nilson 13 2-4 1-2 0-0 1 0 0 3 1 3 5
Mike Leasure 12 2-5 0-1 0-0 4 2 0 0 1 4 4
Mark Spink 11 0-0 0-0 0-0 5 2 0 0 0 1 0
TOTALS 200 33-59 10-19 14-19 39 21 2 9 16 22 90
55.9% 52.6% 73.7%

Game 2
09-10 Gonzaga at 98-99 GonzagaFinal - 5/25/2010 1st 2nd Total
09-10 Gonzaga 22 39 61
98-99 Gonzaga 41 48 89

09-10 Gonzaga
MIN FGM-A 3PM-A FTM-A REB AST BLK STL TO PF TP
Steven Gray* 31 7-14 2-6 2-5 5 1 1 3 3 2 18
Matt Bouldin* 29 1-10 0-3 6-6 1 6 0 2 3 1 8
Elias Harris* 27 4-8 1-2 0-0 9 1 0 2 2 4 9
Demetri Goodson* 25 1-4 0-1 2-2 2 2 0 2 1 3 4
Robert Sacre* 22 2-8 0-0 1-2 5 0 2 0 2 2 5
Mangisto Arop 13 0-0 0-0 0-1 4 1 0 0 1 1 0
Bol Kong 13 1-5 0-1 1-2 2 1 0 0 0 0 3
Kelly Olynyk 12 2-2 0-0 1-1 1 1 0 0 1 3 5
G.J. Vilarino 12 2-6 0-0 1-2 0 0 0 0 1 2 5
Will Foster 8 1-1 0-0 0-0 1 1 0 0 1 1 2
Grant Gibbs 4 1-1 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 1 2
Michael Hart 4 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
TOTALS 200 22-59 3-13 14-21 30 14 3 9 15 20 61
37.3% 23.1% 66.7%

* - denotes game starter

98-99 Gonzaga
MIN FGM-A 3PM-A FTM-A REB AST BLK STL TO PF TP
Quentin Hall* 28 3-6 2-4 2-4 2 3 0 3 2 4 10
Matt Santangelo* 28 4-7 2-3 2-2 4 3 1 2 3 0 12
Richie Frahm* 25 4-7 2-5 0-0 3 1 1 0 1 0 10
Casey Calvary* 23 3-4 1-1 3-4 4 2 3 1 2 4 10
Jeremy Eaton* 22 4-7 0-0 3-3 6 2 0 1 2 2 11
Axel Dench 19 4-8 0-1 4-8 5 4 0 0 1 2 12
Ryan Floyd 16 1-4 1-3 4-4 2 2 0 1 1 1 7
Mike Nilson 15 2-2 0-0 1-1 2 0 0 2 1 3 5
Mike Leasure 12 3-3 2-2 0-0 2 0 0 0 1 0 8
Mark Spink 12 2-2 0-0 0-0 1 0 0 0 1 3 4
TOTALS 200 30-50 10-19 19-26 31 17 5 10 15 19 89
60.0% 52.6% 73.1%

Game 3
09-10 Gonzaga at 98-99 GonzagaFinal - 5/25/2010 1st 2nd Total
09-10 Gonzaga 38 27 65
98-99 Gonzaga 41 37 78

09-10 Gonzaga
MIN FGM-A 3PM-A FTM-A REB AST BLK STL TO PF TP
Steven Gray* 30 4-12 1-6 2-6 4 4 0 2 3 1 11
Elias Harris* 29 6-9 2-3 3-5 5 1 0 0 2 2 17
Matt Bouldin* 26 3-7 1-1 0-0 1 3 0 1 1 3 7
Demetri Goodson* 25 2-4 0-0 0-2 2 6 0 3 2 3 4
Robert Sacre* 24 2-5 0-0 2-2 4 0 1 0 2 2 6
Bol Kong 13 1-3 1-1 0-0 2 0 0 1 0 1 3
Kelly Olynyk 13 2-4 1-2 1-2 4 1 0 1 2 3 6
G.J. Vilarino 11 2-2 1-1 1-2 0 0 0 0 0 0 6
Will Foster 11 0-1 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 0 1 2 0
Mangisto Arop 10 1-1 0-0 0-0 4 1 0 2 0 0 2
Grant Gibbs 4 0-0 0-0 2-2 0 0 0 0 0 0 2
Michael Hart 4 0-0 0-0 1-2 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
TOTALS 200 23-48 7-14 12-23 26 16 1 10 13 17 65
47.9% 50.0% 52.2%

* - denotes game starter

98-99 Gonzaga
MIN FGM-A 3PM-A FTM-A REB AST BLK STL TO PF TP
Quentin Hall* 28 7-9 3-3 3-4 3 4 0 1 3 3 20
Richie Frahm* 26 5-13 3-7 2-2 3 1 0 1 2 1 15
Matt Santangelo* 26 2-7 1-4 2-2 7 6 0 0 2 2 7
Casey Calvary* 24 5-7 0-0 0-1 8 1 2 1 1 0 10
Jeremy Eaton* 22 1-4 0-0 0-0 2 2 0 0 1 4 2
Ryan Floyd 18 3-5 0-2 1-2 2 2 1 0 1 1 7
Axel Dench 17 6-7 1-1 2-2 6 1 0 0 1 0 15
Mike Nilson 15 0-0 0-0 0-0 1 2 0 3 1 2 0
Mike Leasure 13 0-2 0-1 0-0 2 2 0 0 1 4 0
Mark Spink 11 1-1 0-0 0-0 2 1 1 0 1 2 2
TOTALS 200 30-55 8-18 10-13 36 22 4 6 14 19 78
54.5% 44.4% 76.9%

Game 4
09-10 Gonzaga at 98-99 GonzagaFinal - 5/25/2010 1st 2nd Total
09-10 Gonzaga 30 32 62
98-99 Gonzaga 48 24 72

09-10 Gonzaga
MIN FGM-A 3PM-A FTM-A REB AST BLK STL TO PF TP
Matt Bouldin* 32 3-9 0-3 2-2 5 2 0 0 3 2 8
Steven Gray* 30 4-8 1-4 1-2 5 2 1 3 2 2 10
Elias Harris* 27 3-7 1-2 3-3 3 1 0 1 2 3 10
Demetri Goodson* 26 1-3 0-0 0-1 3 2 0 1 0 1 2
Robert Sacre* 24 3-5 0-0 4-6 3 0 1 0 3 3 10
Bol Kong 15 2-5 1-3 0-0 2 2 0 1 1 1 5
Mangisto Arop 12 2-5 0-0 1-1 4 1 0 2 1 1 5
Kelly Olynyk 10 2-2 0-0 0-1 2 2 0 0 0 2 4
Will Foster 9 1-1 0-0 0-1 0 0 0 0 1 1 2
G.J. Vilarino 8 1-3 0-0 0-0 1 0 0 1 1 1 2
Grant Gibbs 4 1-1 1-1 1-2 1 2 0 0 1 0 4
Michael Hart 3 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
TOTALS 200 23-49 4-13 12-19 29 14 2 9 15 17 62
46.9% 30.8% 63.2%

* - denotes game starter

98-99 Gonzaga
MIN FGM-A 3PM-A FTM-A REB AST BLK STL TO PF TP
Quentin Hall* 30 4-7 1-3 3-3 2 3 0 2 3 2 12
Matt Santangelo* 29 2-12 2-6 2-2 2 9 2 1 3 1 8
Richie Frahm* 26 4-7 2-4 0-0 4 0 1 0 1 2 10
Casey Calvary* 24 5-7 1-1 1-2 3 1 1 0 2 4 12
Jeremy Eaton* 23 6-10 0-0 0-1 9 1 0 1 1 4 12
Axel Dench 16 3-6 0-0 2-2 4 0 1 1 1 0 8
Ryan Floyd 16 3-4 1-1 2-2 2 3 0 1 2 3 9
Mike Nilson 12 0-2 0-1 0-0 4 1 0 2 1 3 0
Mike Leasure 12 0-0 0-0 0-0 3 1 0 1 0 2 0
Mark Spink 12 0-3 0-0 1-2 3 0 1 0 0 0 1
TOTALS 200 27-58 7-16 11-14 36 19 6 9 14 21 72
46.6% 43.8% 78.6%

MDABE80
05-25-2010, 09:33 PM
All the statistics can be voided. 99 knew how to win....and how to turn it up and keep it up. Tougher group. No quit. 98-99 just was a better team. Individual talent? Maybe not, but it's a team game. 4-1....99.

Reborn
05-25-2010, 10:46 PM
I don't like this kind of a thread because I never root against ANY of the Zag teams. I don't really see how pitting what was probabaly the best Zag team ever against one that was rebuilding, and younger, and less experienced. I really like the '09-'10 Zag team, and I think that in the next two years they could reach the Elite 8 for the second time. And just maybe beyond. Harris, Sacre, Gray, Arop, Meech, Olynyk, Dower, Kong, Carter is going to be very good next year. Much better than this year's team.

titopoet
05-26-2010, 06:10 AM
I really have no dog in this fight. Both teams were great. But just for fun I went to http://www.whatifsports.com/ncaab/ and ran some simulations.

It looks like the simulator liked 99 over 2010 by a hair. I ran 15 simulations and had it 8-7. Most of the time the 2010 won the first half. In all of the games Elias was great, even when the simulator had the 99 blowing out the 2010 team. I set all the games on a neutral site.

Silly stuff, but a good way to blow ten minutes of breaktime.

kitzbuel
05-26-2010, 08:11 AM
I really have no dog in this fight. Both teams were great. But just for fun I went to http://www.whatifsports.com/ncaab/ and ran some simulations.

It looks like the simulator liked 99 over 2010 by a hair. I ran 15 simulations and had it 8-7. Most of the time the 2010 won the first half. In all of the games Elias was great, even when the simulator had the 99 blowing out the 2010 team. I set all the games on a neutral site.

Silly stuff, but a good way to blow ten minutes of breaktime.
Interesting. That is actually what I would expect. The 09-10 team was not widely expected to be a great team given all the new pieces that had to be put together.

former1dog
05-26-2010, 08:38 AM
I don't like this kind of a thread because I never root against ANY of the Zag teams. I don't really see how pitting what was probabaly the best Zag team ever against one that was rebuilding, and younger, and less experienced. I really like the '09-'10 Zag team, and I think that in the next two years they could reach the Elite 8 for the second time. And just maybe beyond. Harris, Sacre, Gray, Arop, Meech, Olynyk, Dower, Kong, Carter is going to be very good next year. Much better than this year's team.

This thread is just for fun Reborn. Nothing more, nothing less.

kitzbuel
05-26-2010, 10:55 AM
All the statistics can be voided. 99 knew how to win....and how to turn it up and keep it up. Tougher group. No quit. 98-99 just was a better team. Individual talent? Maybe not, but it's a team game. 4-1....99.

You can't just arbitrarily throw out stats and replace them with gut feeling and emotion and expect to have an unbiased comparison unless you simply want to maintain bias for reasons like nostalgia.

former1dog
05-26-2010, 11:05 AM
All the statistics can be voided. 99 knew how to win....and how to turn it up and keep it up. Tougher group. No quit. 98-99 just was a better team. Individual talent? Maybe not, but it's a team game. 4-1....99.

Listen, I loved that Elite 8 team, but lets not let nostalgia blind us to the facts. '09-'10 Zags lost 7 games.... '98-'99 Zags lost 7 games, including to Detroit at home and were blown out on the road at San Diego.

BobZag
05-26-2010, 11:36 AM
Daisy, Daisy,
Give me your answer do.
I'm half crazy,
All for the love of you.

229SintoZag
05-26-2010, 01:39 PM
Listen, I loved that Elite 8 team, but lets not let nostalgia blind us to the facts. '09-'10 Zags lost 7 games.... '98-'99 Zags lost 7 games, including to Detroit at home and were blown out on the road at San Diego.

I actually think that the 98-99 team could probably beat the 09-10 team easily.

If they played today.

And I'm only half joking. Sort of.

former1dog
05-26-2010, 02:11 PM
I actually think that the 98-99 team could probably beat the 09-10 team easily.

If they played today.

And I'm only half joking. Sort of.

Considering 3 (4?) of the starters played professional basketball (one is still playing) and 1 of the reserves (Dench) , I don't see that as a stretch at all. You put grown men professional athletes against even very, very good college players, the pros are going to have the edge.

Of course, that isn't the scenario. We're talking about the fantasy scenario of college age/experienced Matt Santangelo, Richie Frahm and company playing last years team.