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jscrk
05-08-2010, 03:44 PM
With both Grant Gibb and G.J. Vilarino transferring and being replaced with Marquise Carter and Keegan Hyland, can I assume that overall, Marquise and Keegan are better ballplayers than Grant and G.J.? If so, that is quite an accomplishment considering that Grant was one of the top high school players to come out of Iowa and G.J. was initially recruited by Kentucky.

BobZag
05-08-2010, 03:48 PM
We fans haven't seen Carter or Hyland, but we have to "assume" the coaches think so, yes.

Only time will tell, though.

Zagcity
05-08-2010, 04:18 PM
Grant Gibb and G.J. Vilarino both had short leashes and at times never seemed to get into the flow of the offense. As well as having mental break downs on defense. They each showed signs of brilliance and with time could have been major contributors, but I think the coaches are looking for more of a quick replacement for Matt Bouldin. Marquise Carter and Keegan Hyland will give a more immediate impact IMO. Best of luck to all four.

MickMick
05-08-2010, 04:33 PM
Zags need shooters.

Especially with Matt leaving.

Grant and GJ are fine players. Possibly better all-around players than the duo coming in, but the big team weakness is/was scoring punch at the guard position.

I suspect that Few didn't want GJ to leave. I suspect that GJ didn't want to leave. But the conflict was about roles/playing time and the conflict didn't appear to get resolved.

cggonzaga
05-08-2010, 04:44 PM
Grant and GJ are fine players. Possibly better all-around players than the duo coming in, but the big team weakness is/was scoring punch at the guard position.

Very odd comment. Why in the world would Grant and GJ leave if the coaches thought Keegan and Marquise weren't as good or better all around players? It's very clear now that the coaching staff made it very apparent to GJ and GG that they would be losing playing time to the newcomers. No coach in his right mind essentially lets better overall players go so that he can play one dimensional players. It's pretty plain and simple to me, Keegan and Marquise are better players with higher upside, period.

MickMick
05-08-2010, 04:46 PM
Very odd comment. Why in the world would Grant and GJ leave if the coaches thought Keegan and Marquise weren't as good or better all around players? It's very clear now that the coaching staff made it very apparent to GJ and GG that they would be losing playing time to the newcomers. No coach in his right mind essentially lets better overall players go so that he can play one dimensional players. It's pretty plain and simple to me, Keegan and Marquise are better players with higher upside, period.

I think it is quite possible to swap added perimeter shooting at the expense of passing or penetrating ability. Sacrifice one area to beef up another. What is odd about that?


GJ could possibly beat you off the bounce better than the two coming in. Grant could possibly distribute the ball better. Neither were prolific scorers.

Edit: With respect to GJ, I don't think this has anything to do with how good he is and more to do with his perceived role on the team.
The fact that he will likely end up on a "high major" team indicates he is plenty good enough.

gamagin
05-08-2010, 04:56 PM
Zags need shooters.

Especially with Matt leaving.

Grant and GJ are fine players. Possibly better all-around players than the duo coming in, but the big team weakness is/was scoring punch at the guard position.

I suspect that Few didn't want GJ to leave. I suspect that GJ didn't want to leave. But the conflict was about roles/playing time and the conflict didn't appear to get resolved.

Zags players called off the bench are expected to produce. The warning, clearly, is be ready to go if/when you are called.

I don't think GG nor GJ had enough time, in their minds, nor perhaps in reality, to adjust to the leap to D1, to realize they weren't in Kansas (figuratively, Dorothy) anymore, and then jump in and perform on cue.

From the coaches perspective, that's on the players. I am certain after listening to Few's weekly radio and tv shows, that no one is owed p.t. They all earn it in practice and then keep it or lose it on the floor, during the game, under fire.

From their perspective, and perhaps their parents as well, they just need more time to get their game on.

It takes a rare kid to be able to step up that way, but they exist. It looks like this is exactly the kind of player this program now needs to bolster the nucleus.

That necessarily means those who haven't shown they're ready and able, are going to be pushed deeper down the bench. So they leave.

It remains to be seen whether all these new recruits can step up as it is hoped they will.

I don't think it's a mystery that Few believes they have a better chance of meeting the challenge than the athletes who have decided to go elsewhere, or else these shifts would not have occurred.

I'm guessing the conversations both coming into the Zags program, and leaving are pretty much the same.

We'll give (or we gave) you every opportunity to get p.t. and even a start, but you have (had) to earn the job, and keep it, if you expect to play more, or work into the starting rotation.

cggonzaga
05-08-2010, 05:03 PM
I think it is quite possible to swap added perimeter shooting at the expense of passing or penetrating ability. Sacrifice one area to beef up another. What is odd about that?

You made the comment that the two leaving may be better all around players. I've never met a coach that would give up two better all around players for two specialists. Its my belief that the two newcomers are better all around players otherwise GJ and GG wouldn't have left. They wouldn't have had any reason to.

Bogozags
05-08-2010, 05:27 PM
You made the comment that the two leaving may be better all around players. I've never met a coach that would give up two better all around players for two specialists. Its my belief that the two newcomers are better all around players otherwise GJ and GG wouldn't have left. They wouldn't have had any reason to.

+1

GG and GJ have skills but not the type of skills the 2010-11 team needs and their playing time would have been reduced, the writing was on the wall for all to see...I've commented about GG before, he has all the tools but just a "tweener" and GJ, never did really see him being a stellar type at GU...just not the "right type of game"...I wish both the very best in everything they do and just hope we don't have to play against them...

theman.themyth.thelegend
05-08-2010, 05:32 PM
but the big team weakness is/was scoring punch at the guard position.

Yep. Add to it: perimeter shooting.

Keegan was/is a profilic shooter from everywhere on the court, especially beyond the arc(45% from 3pt with over 180 attempts). Also, Hyland is extremely aggresive on the offensive end and prides himself on his unmatched quick release and versatile scoring ability.

Marquise is also an above average perimeter shooter(40% at JUCO level) who features a solid mid-range game and the ability to score in the lane. His soft touch and floaters are going to be a sight to see next season.

The point being: both Hyland and Marquise are shooters, scorers, yet featuring almost all the same attributes(save speed) displayed by Grant & GJ. Marquise can handle, is tall (6'3.5"), can shoot, and decent quickness. Keegan is considered by some to be the best shooter in the class of '10. 'nuff said.

While GJ/Grant are both tremendous players in their own right, they were never considered "scorers" or even shooters BEFORE they arrived at Gonzaga. Both GJ/Gibbs were recruited to develop their overall games while at GU and to fit a specific need. GJ = speed, elusiveness, athleticism. GG = IQ, passing, feel. Still great players and highly rated out of HS, just not shooters or really scorers for that matter. Nothing changed much at the college level. Grant being hindered by injuries and lack of PT during his time here and GJ by inexperience and difficulty in learning the offense & system.

Just take a quick peek at their respective stats from HS, which starts to explain the occurence---

Gibbs = 15 ppg (34% 3pt(SHOCKED when I read this on Maxpreps stats, btw), 4 assists, 4 boards)
GJ = 19 ppg (4 assists, 2 boards)

Marquise = 21 ppg (40% 3pt, 6 assists, 6 boards)
Keegan = 28 ppg (45% 3pt, 4 assists, etc)

Do these HS stats translate into Marquise/Keegan being better players b/c they were more consistent shooters/scorers? Not at all. Just different players who seem(at least on paper) to fit our system and needs much better.

We needed shooters, sorely missed shooters, and we went out and recruited better shooters and scorers at the guard positions. Gonzaga's offensive system needs them, especially with Bouldin leaving this season. They were recruited over and it happens.

I wish both players the very best and believe they will find great situations for what they're looking for. . .

gum797
05-08-2010, 06:04 PM
[QUOTE=MickMick;568344]Grant and GJ are fine players. Possibly better all-around players than the duo coming in, but the big team weakness is/was scoring punch at the guard position.
QUOTE]

Just curious, have you seen the two players coming in play (not trying to challenge your statement, but really want to know if you have seen them)? Although I agree with you that we need more scoring from our guards, that is a difficult comment to make if you have not seen them play. I agree with the others on this thread that obviously the newbies must be better than GG and GJ or at the very least better in our staff's mind.

MickMick
05-08-2010, 06:22 PM
[QUOTE=MickMick;568344]Grant and GJ are fine players. Possibly better all-around players than the duo coming in, but the big team weakness is/was scoring punch at the guard position.
QUOTE]

Just curious, have you seen the two players coming in play (not trying to challenge your statement, but really want to know if you have seen them)? Although I agree with you that we need more scoring from our guards, that is a difficult comment to make if you have not seen them play. I agree with the others on this thread that obviously the newbies must be better than GG and GJ or at the very least better in our staff's mind.

I have not seen them play. I base this on the players that left. They had decent all-around game. The Zag weakness was scoring from the guard position.

These are things I have witnessed.

So I draw the conclusion that the recent heavy emphasis to recruit guards is to upgrade the scoring capability at the position. Few said as much when commenting on the new players after they had committed.

Are the 2010 guys coming in going to deliver on that?

I have no idea, but I have much faith that the 2011 guards will deliver the points in a big way. Perhaps it is the 2011 class (not 2010) that forced the issue with the depating players.

Edit: I am really liking what I am reading about Hyland. He is a gym rat like Ravio. Shoots 500 ball a day starting at 5:00 AM. A guy that needs his own set of keys to the gym (like Ravio).

I'm sold on Hyland.

snebzag
05-08-2010, 09:14 PM
Weird, I was just thinking of the guard situation. We went from flush to mystery. SG will fill in just fine in the scoring department for Matty. No doubt in my mind. Also means folks Meech will start at point at the beginning, past threads have discussed that. MC and KH are mysteries at this point. One injury and it is scramble time. All other positions are taken care of in my mind. KH looks like D-Rav with a shot like Adam. I'm excited. MC will have some learning to do from JC ball where the offense was "here's the ball, run and gun" to Gonzaga offense. I understand all the changes, but am now just a little apprehensive about the guard position.

cjm720
05-08-2010, 09:46 PM
Yep. Add to it: perimeter shooting.

Keegan was/is a profilic shooter from everywhere on the court, especially beyond the arc(45% from 3pt with over 180 attempts). Also, Hyland is extremely aggresive on the offensive end and prides himself on his unmatched quick release and versatile scoring ability.

Marquise is also an above average perimeter shooter(40% at JUCO level) who features a solid mid-range game and the ability to score in the lane. His soft touch and floaters are going to be a sight to see next season.

The point being: both Hyland and Marquise are shooters, scorers, yet featuring almost all the same attributes(save speed) displayed by Grant & GJ. Marquise can handle, is tall (6'3.5"), can shoot, and decent quickness. Keegan is considered by some to be the best shooter in the class of '10. 'nuff said.

While GJ/Grant are both tremendous players in their own right, they were never considered "scorers" or even shooters BEFORE they arrived at Gonzaga. Both GJ/Gibbs were recruited to develop their overall games while at GU and to fit a specific need. GJ = speed, elusiveness, athleticism. GG = IQ, passing, feel. Still great players and highly rated out of HS, just not shooters or really scorers for that matter. Nothing changed much at the college level. Grant being hindered by injuries and lack of PT during his time here and GJ by inexperience and difficulty in learning the offense & system.

Just take a quick peek at their respective stats from HS, which starts to explain the occurence---

Gibbs = 15 ppg (34% 3pt(SHOCKED when I read this on Maxpreps stats, btw), 4 assists, 4 boards)
GJ = 19 ppg (4 assists, 2 boards)

Marquise = 21 ppg (40% 3pt, 6 assists, 6 boards)
Keegan = 28 ppg (45% 3pt, 4 assists, etc)

Do these HS stats translate into Marquise/Keegan being better players b/c they were more consistent shooters/scorers? Not at all. Just different players who seem(at least on paper) to fit our system and needs much better.

We needed shooters, sorely missed shooters, and we went out and recruited better shooters and scorers at the guard positions. Gonzaga's offensive system needs them, especially with Bouldin leaving this season. They were recruited over and it happens.

I wish both players the very best and believe they will find great situations for what they're looking for. . .

good post, nice breakdown

go zags

Zag79
05-09-2010, 01:02 AM
interesting... the guy thought by some to surely replace meech, is gone. i have a fun feeling meech is going to be the starting PG for the next two years, and will get better and better. just what i think. ;)

JPtheBeasta
05-09-2010, 01:12 AM
It's nice to know that when Few has a shopping list he can go out and get what he wants. I can't remember when players were recruited over like this in the past (not saying it hasn't happened, just can't remember). The team was lacking in a few areas last year. Hyland fills the need for a knock-down shooter that we are so used to (and I had taken for granted). Carter will be a good compliment to Meech for his apparent scoring ability- but I personally like his length, which should help defensively on the taller point guards. I don't think the Departed would have been able to fill those rolls, and would have been getting mop-up minutes again this year.

As an aside, I keep worrying about depth at the guard spot with these transers-which others have mentioned as well- but I tend to forget Stockton. He might get some run this year...

RenoZag
05-09-2010, 01:37 AM
Hyland fills the need for a knock-down shooter that we are so used to (and I had taken for granted). Carter will be a good compliment to Meech for his apparent scoring ability- but I personally like his length, which should help defensively on the taller point guards.

This fan hopes you're right. . .at the end of last year, the best performing back court in the WCC didn't hang its hat in Spokane.

bigblahla
05-09-2010, 06:37 AM
This fan hopes you're right. . .at the end of last year, the best performing back court in the WCC didn't hang its hat in Spokane.

Agreed and that's why the hunt was on ASAP.

It's all about the Streak of regular season conference titles being in serious jeopardy of ending without an upgrade in the backcourt.

Our WCC brethren recruit to end the streak, recruit to beat GU and have done a good job of it. Even with the loss of Young LMU is going to be a good team, Viney is 100% stud and the supporting cast isn't to shabby. Just because Hamsan is gone don't expect SMC to rollover and SCU & USF & the Pilots will help decide the outcome.

I truly believe that winning the regular season league title is first and foremost on the mind of coach and staff and the new additions to the team improve our chances to keep the streak going.

Just my opinion

Go!! ZAgs!!!

Zagcity
05-09-2010, 07:09 AM
As a point guard you had better get into the flow awful quick or you will spend time riding the bench, G.J. Vilarino's instincts early on was to shoot and ask questions later, no matter where on the floor or what the situation was.

Towards the end of the season the short leash I believe kept him from doing what came natural to him. Which in the end gave me a reminiscent reminder of what Pierre Marie Altidor-Cespedes went through and at this level of competition you can't second guess your instincts.

Hoopaholic
05-09-2010, 08:19 AM
I honestly think alot of the posters on this board is missing the boat on why Gj is transferring. I strongly suspect it goes back to what I described out Meechs learning curve this year........ACCEPTANCE OF ROLE AS DEFINED BY THE COACH>


I strongly suspect that the coaching staff, in discussing and explaining the role that GJ would be playing next year is what sent him packing. My GUESS is that the role defined was alot of 2 guard role playing for GJ and that he could not accept that role, feeling that he should be a straight PG.....

I personally have no issue if a college kid does NOT want to accept the defined roles and expectations to better the TEAM, then move on to a program that will allow you to play as you feel is best for you....

With that it is clear that Meech role will go back to a true PG this year and I highly suspect you will see his numbers move accordingly........no more bringing ball up, stopping, handing off to the 2 guard, then going to the wing......I suspect we will see a more consistent, standard offense this year with wings and post play and Meech will bring numbers up in accordance with that......

JPtheBeasta
05-09-2010, 09:52 AM
I honestly think alot of the posters on this board is missing the boat on why Gj is transferring. I strongly suspect it goes back to what I described out Meechs learning curve this year........ACCEPTANCE OF ROLE AS DEFINED BY THE COACH>


I strongly suspect that the coaching staff, in discussing and explaining the role that GJ would be playing next year is what sent him packing. My GUESS is that the role defined was alot of 2 guard role playing for GJ and that he could not accept that role, feeling that he should be a straight PG.....

I personally have no issue if a college kid does NOT want to accept the defined roles and expectations to better the TEAM, then move on to a program that will allow you to play as you feel is best for you....

With that it is clear that Meech role will go back to a true PG this year and I highly suspect you will see his numbers move accordingly........no more bringing ball up, stopping, handing off to the 2 guard, then going to the wing......I suspect we will see a more consistent, standard offense this year with wings and post play and Meech will bring numbers up in accordance with that......

All of the above. The notion that a kid feels that he "needs" (GJ's dad's word) to play PG says something- one can read into that whatever they would like. Matt took a lot on his shoulders last year and I think Meech and company will be much more assertive this year. If they want to win games they will have to be.

Rim Rockah
05-09-2010, 03:27 PM
GJ was a stud, Few just didn't like him. He'll get some ink somewhere else for sure. As far as Gibbs goes.....I'm better than Gibbs. We are top heavy at guard with all these little guys coming in. Few needs to start landing some decent bigs. He needs to stop recruiting Canada soo much and take a plane to Australia and try to get the next Andruw Bogut.

john montana
05-09-2010, 04:18 PM
As far as Gibbs goes.....I'm better than Gibbs.

I will just give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are trying to be funny. Good one!

MickMick
05-09-2010, 08:36 PM
I vehemently disagree that GJ and Gibbs were anything more than roster filler based on their performance this past season. I was once sad that Reisman was leaving, but I've realized how things work out since then. Neither player is likely a difference maker, and there's some people blinded by relentless optimism. I hope the team has improved, and I doubt it is any worse. Meech is a better player than GJ, and I don't think it's all that close. And I'm not a big Meech fan.


GJ didn't give us enough sample size to draw such conclusions. GJ had one less year in the system. I believe he will turn out to be a fairly good player somewhere.

MDABE80
05-09-2010, 10:17 PM
Neither of them had much in the way of minutes. Mal..."but I'm not encouraging the coaches to give scholarships to Rudy.". Such a hardening edge....ease up....they're gone. But one thing I'm glad about is this: YOU don't have a vote.

Parents read this board. No need for bloody daggers. Both kids are good young men. They will be better elsewhere. Josh was all kinds of trouble Neither of these kids have anything to do with Josh. GJ's a bit bigger and more athletic. That's about where any comparison ends.

JoeZag
05-10-2010, 09:19 AM
Very odd comment. Why in the world would Grant and GJ leave if the coaches thought Keegan and Marquise weren't as good or better all around players? It's very clear now that the coaching staff made it very apparent to GJ and GG that they would be losing playing time to the newcomers. No coach in his right mind essentially lets better overall players go so that he can play one dimensional players. It's pretty plain and simple to me, Keegan and Marquise are better players with higher upside, period.

A 'little birdie' I know that hangs out on the branches of the GU basketball tree told me back in March that definitely one 'G' and probably the other were going to transfer. I am sure that they communicated as much to Coach Few, and thus his comments about getting some help on the perimeter. He knew that both guys were leaving and he had to fill the holes. I don't know anything about the new guys, so I can't say whether or not they are better. I can tell you that in watching both Grant and GJ up close and personal at pick-up games and individual workouts, that there was a world of difference between them.

Grant lacked the athleticism to play defense they way Few wanted and was NOT a great shooter. He didn't seem to want to put in the work to improve either his body or his shot. He has a very solid basketball IQ and understanding of the nuances of the game; just not the tools to apply them. He doesn't have a lot of upside and will probably always be a role player if he stays in Division I. In pick-up games he was always more of a facilitator than a finisher. A great kid who was really unhappy with his role for most of the year.

GJ on the other hand is just a freak of an athlete and a tremendous worker, but he doesn't yet understand how to play the game. His shot is also not great, but he is even faster than Meech and has a better handle. I think that he will put in the time to improve his shot and his decision making will only get better with more PT. He has a tremendous amount of upside, but he will have to get in the right kind of system (up-tempo) and get lots of PT to hone his skill set. He could be downright dominant in pick-up games and was fearless in attacking the basket. He was also not happy for most of the year but he kept his mouth shut and kept on working. Another great character kid who should land in a BCS conference.

zag buddy
05-10-2010, 11:12 AM
I'm tired of the Meech bashing. Just because he is a different type point guard than we are used too. Coach Few said a number of times that Meech was the best defensive player on the team. He has had four very capable shooters on the floor with him. I believe the coaches love him because he does the things they ask him to do. What we are seeing is what the coaches want. How many backcourt turnovers did he have last year. Other teams did not even try to stop our back court from bring up the ball. His speed at bring up the ball was amazing whether he was guarded or not. The coaches have said he is a very good shooter and if they ask him to do that there is no doubt he will. He is progressing through the years as the coaches would have him- very trainable. We will see continued improvement in his game the next two years.

odeasmcgu
05-10-2010, 06:31 PM
Just my opinion but if GJ were NBA caliber or potential NBA caliber, don't you think that Calipari would have kept him there for down the road, knowing John Wall and possibly Eric Bledsoe were one and done guys.

As to Grant Gibbs, watching him, he just never seemed to have a breakout performance, even when he got the start against a weak Davidson game. I hope the best for both of these guys, but I don't think it will kill GU.

MDABE80
05-10-2010, 07:00 PM
Cal gets a new point guard every year. He has some backups...everyone does. Gj didn't didn't stay at UK because Cal likes big ( ie 6 ft 3 or more) to play point. Didn't have much to do tith GJ's talent. Size yes...bt no talent. All GJ needs to do is hone his outside shooting. He'll be fine.

GG is a big guard who's a good player..with an advanced understanding of the game. He'll do well in that type of system that's more systematic. Great kid. Creighton, Iowa or one of those more deliberate offensive teams will welcome him..and they should. He didn't get much development at GU. He'll get it elsewhere. These days, GU's emphacise is on more athletic, quick, fast kids. It's quite a departure from the 99 type kids. Good or bad...it's a change from what began our run.