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View Full Version : Butler loses Gordon Hayward



BobZag
05-05-2010, 02:39 PM
That's what Fox's John Goodman is saying.

I think Gonzaga has been in talks with Butler about a game next season.

BroncoZAG615
05-05-2010, 02:44 PM
Saweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet!

I 100% support Mark Few signing this deal now. Gordon Hayward scared the bejesus out of me if we were to play them next year.

Also a very wise move for him. His stock will never be higher than it is and a lot of guys that came back last year (Willie Warren, Craig Brackins) are prime reasons why you must strike when the iron is hot.

BobZag
05-05-2010, 02:53 PM
Lottery pick, they say. Can't pass that up.

Hope the game happens. Git 'er done, Krause.

007Zag
05-05-2010, 02:58 PM
As much as I love the idea of a student/athlete returning to play a couple more years (great seniors are one of the greatest pleasures in all of college sports), when you have the chance to go pro and your draft stock accurately represents your talent or even exceeds it, it would be imprudent to stay. I think Hayward is the kind of guy who will finish his degree, even if it takes him an extra couple of years to do it. A good decision, assuming he does go in the lottery or even the top 10.

And with GH gone, bring on the bulldogs of Butler!

Butler Guy
05-05-2010, 04:47 PM
Butler has two home dates remaining, 'tis all. Here is the OOC, to date:

at Louisville
vs. Duke (East Rutherford, NJ)
vs Stanford
at Siena
vs Ball State
vs Evansville
at Xavier
Diamondhead Classic (Baylor, FSU, MSU, USD, Utah, and Hawaii)
vs Open
vs Open (Buy game)

zagco
05-05-2010, 05:37 PM
Zagco's bummed about this. Hayward was one of the most intriguing players Zagco has seen in a long time. He was really looking forward to seeing him play for Butler next year. Sure hope he does not get swallowed up into the NBA. He seems like such a great young man.

siliconzag
05-05-2010, 05:49 PM
Zagco. This is very sad. My first disappointment was when Elgin Baylor decided to forgo his senior year at Seattle U in 1958. He may have been the first hardship case. More and more have followed his lead.

I find my enthusiasm for college sports waning. I loved that Tyler Hansborough returned, and very much admire him for it. Same with Sheron Collins.

I freely admit that Sili, and probably Zagco too (if I read him right), think that kids should graduate before they go pro. That the idea of being a college athlete is to get a degree. I decry the farm system that the NCAA allows with the one and done exemption. It encourages all kinds of sleaziness at all kinds of levels.

Those of you who understand the business aspects probably are prone to endorsing "situation ethics". I appreciate the Casey Cavalry's, the Richie Frahms, the Matt Santangelos. Whatever happened to "Be True to your School?" You are right Zagco. Besides, I want to see Gordon drain that shot from half court next year and beat those SOBs.

CDC84
05-05-2010, 06:44 PM
I think it should be pointed out - and this has nothing to do with any of the comments in this thread - that Gordon was a straight A student in high school and an Academic All American this past year. He represented the student-athlete concept as well as anyone. But like Bill Gates dropping out of Harvard to start Microsoft, Gordon has to leave. Ty Lawson, Tyler Hansborough and many others who elected to come back to school didn't have anywhere near the stock that Hayward has. Come late June, Gordon will be able to pay for the next 3 generations of his family. The endorsement companies are going to be all over him. He was the face of the NCAA tournament just over a month ago.

As a side note, I bet you that Gordon Hayward eventually earns his college degree. It's probably important to him and his family. What's never talked about with these kids who leave early is how many of them, like Shaq, earn their degrees while playing in the NBA.

MDABE80
05-05-2010, 09:16 PM
I TOO THINK like Sili and Zagco. He's an interesting kid and a pleasure to watch. It's a four year degree. Some make it back but most just get caught up in the business of being a star. He's a talented id.SOmething about theses kids leaving just doesn't seem proper. Old school thinking I guess..

siliconzag
05-06-2010, 06:47 AM
Perhaps it is a comment on the times. "He must go," if I am not mistaken is an imperative. Where is the moral imperative? If everything is about money, some of us have made some really immoral decisions. I should have been a radiologist, or perhaps I should have remained a physician administrator. Abe, you should have gone to work for one of those biotech firms. Maybe I should have too.

I thought about Bill Gates too, after writing my first post. Bill Gates is not analogous to Gordon. Bill Gates=Leonardo DaVinci. The reason DaVinci left Verrocchio's studio is because he knew more than Verrocchio and all the rest of the Florentine masters combined. Gordon is a terrific young man with great academic achievements. Leonardo, and Bill Gates he is not.

But this is all kind of a side argument. When it comes right down to it, college basketball is my favorite sport. And being deprived of one of watching this terrific young man in a Butler jersey next year is a loss for all who love the sport, and knowing that he is going to the circus that is the NBA is paltry consolation for me.

Psychozag
05-06-2010, 08:21 AM
What about what Gordon wants for himself? I'll bet that he has been dreaming of making the NBA since he was a kid, and now he has the opportunity. College is the minor leagues for the NBA, like it or not, and one of the best ways to get yourself drafted. Now he is going to fulfill his ultimate goal, and was able to do so making Butler look good by attending classes and getting good grades. What more could anyone ask of him?

CDC84
05-06-2010, 08:53 AM
Perhaps it is a comment on the times. "He must go," if I am not mistaken is an imperative. Where is the moral imperative?

There isn't a moral imperative, but when someone has a chance to make that much money doing something they love that brings joy to others and doesn't harm anyone, you need to grasp the opportunity while it's there. If I were the kid's Dad, his coach, his advisor, etc., I'd tell him the same thing straight up. It is about money when we start talking about 14 million dollar contracts and 30 million dollar endorsement deals. It's not as much about money if you are someone like Ronny Turiaf who was never going to be anything more than a back end first round pick at best. Gordon is lottery. Not many people in this land get that kind of opportunity. It's not just an opportunity to help yourself and your family, but a chance to positively effect the lives of many people in need through charity work and such.

I believe in the ideal of the college experience and education as much as anyone, but that kind of money is too much to pass up. Gordon can always go back to school if he wants to. That being said, had Gordon elected to come back, I wouldn't have publicly condemned him. It's his life. Privately, I might have entertained different thoughts.

Bill Gates could be one of the thousands of Joe Blow's who left college early for professional and financial opportunities that came out of the blue. I wasn't trying to compare Gates and Hayward as people.

I'm also confused about how the "one and done" thing is even a part of this topic. Gordon was offered one D-1 schoolie coming out of high school, and that was from Butler. He was largely unknown except by people who follow Indiana prep hoops. He wasn't even close to being a top 100 player. He was a guy that almost everyone missed on, and whose talent grew by leaps and bounds while he was at Butler. His early departure is a completely different situation from John Wall or DeMarcus Cousins....guys who you knew from day one were headed straight to the NBA and would've gone to the NBA out of HS if the age limit weren't in place.

HillBillyZag
05-06-2010, 09:14 AM
I'll have no further comments about anyones decision to stay or play. I've finally seen the light. Basketball today at its higher skill levels is a BUSINESS and I have been naive thinking otherwise. Speaking as a kid in his seventies that has loved the game since I played CYO ball in the 3rd grade and was fortunate enough to start three years as a high school player and and have a cup of coffee at the the Collegiate level,it kind of hurts waking up to the truth. To those of you who have tried to tell me the facts, I admit it, you were right!.

siliconzag
05-06-2010, 09:48 AM
There isn't a moral imperative, but when someone has a chance to make that much money doing something they love that brings joy to others and doesn't harm anyone, you need to grasp the opportunity while it's there. If I were the kid's Dad, his coach, his advisor, etc., I'd tell him the same thing straight up. It is about money when we start talking about 14 million dollar contracts and 30 million dollar endorsement deals. It's not as much about money if you are someone like Ronny Turiaf who was never going to be anything more than a back end first round pick at best. Gordon is lottery. Not many people in this land get that kind of opportunity. It's not just an opportunity to help yourself and your family, but a chance to positively effect the lives of many people in need through charity work and such.

I believe in the ideal of the college experience and education as much as anyone, but that kind of money is too much to pass up. Gordon can always go back to school if he wants to. That being said, had Gordon elected to come back, I wouldn't have publicly condemned him. It's his life. Privately, I might have entertained different thoughts.

Bill Gates could be one of the thousands of Joe Blow's who left college early for professional and financial opportunities that came out of the blue. I wasn't trying to compare Gates and Hayward as people.

I'm also confused about how the "one and done" thing is even a part of this topic. Gordon was offered one D-1 schoolie coming out of high school, and that was from Butler. He was largely unknown except by people who follow Indiana prep hoops. He wasn't even close to being a top 100 player. He was a guy that almost everyone missed on, and whose talent grew by leaps and bounds while he was at Butler. His early departure is a completely different situation from John Wall or DeMarcus Cousins....guys who you knew from day one were headed straight to the NBA and would've gone to the NBA out of HS if the age limit weren't in place.

I think we all can acknowledge that this might be a good opportunity for him to capitalize. However, he shall never know the joy of winning a national championship. Neither did Elgin Baylor. Neither did Adam Morrison.

You ask what is the connection between one and done and this? Only one thing. Education is subordinate to basketball, and that is the common thread. I have trouble with exalting a very terrific young man to the same level of Bill Gates. However I will be the first to apologize to CDC, a good basketball mind to be sure, if he creates the next Microsoft.

I watched the Suns and the Spurs last night. It was good, but if there had been a college game on, I would have watched it instead. The only trouble with the basketball world as I see it, is that the lines between the NBA and collegiate games are blurred. I am a purist. For better or for worse.

Sili

sonuvazag
05-06-2010, 09:50 AM
For some, the dream is to play in the NBA because it is the highest level of competition in a sport they love. I don't see the need to be so cynical. If the NBA didn't pay so much money, I would still value the idea of following that dream. Its called the lottery for a reason.

Dogtownkid
05-06-2010, 10:01 AM
Siliconzag:

+1

U Zig, I Zag
05-06-2010, 10:14 AM
I would play pro ball if I could for way less money than I make now. That's not saying much, btw.

Good luck to him.

former1dog
05-06-2010, 10:20 AM
I don't quarrel with the sentiments of Sili or Abe, et al. Good points and solid opinions.

There is a practical consideration for the purpose of education, though. For all but a very few individuals, the purpose of education is to prepare the individual for life beyond education. That is, so one can get a job and make money.

zagco
05-06-2010, 10:24 AM
Zagco has mixed feelings on leaving early. He knows way too many college graduates who tend bar or take other jobs that require no degree. He also knows many people who have been very successful without such a degree. He also knows a lot of people who worked while they pursued their degree, taking 6 or more years to finish it. In a way, that is the scenario that an early entry creates, if the player chooses to pursue it. Zagco has no problem with people who work full time while they pursue a degree.

Honestly, Zagco just would have preferred to see him play the college game for another year. The NBA game is not as interesting, and Zagco has just seen way too many great college players that were so fun to watch end up washing out in the NBA game. So, his feelings about Gordon Hayward are somewhat selfish.

If Zagco had to bet, knowing what he knows about Hayward, he would put money on him finishing his degree at some point.

ZagNut08
05-06-2010, 12:42 PM
Here is my thinking...why do people go to college? More than likely, it is so they can prepare themselves for the next level. I need a college degree to get the job I want, so I go to college. For many basketball players, they go to college to get themselves ready for the pros. So, college required that I attend courses until I could get the units required (took 4 years.) For someone like Gordon, or Morrison, or whoever, it did not take them as long to get to where they wanted to go to sign up for college.

I have no issues with college-athletes leaving early if they are, indeed, ready for the NBA.

OregonZag5
05-06-2010, 03:08 PM
I have to agree with every work of HillBilly Zag- I argue with my children ( well young adults) about players going pro early and they keep telling me they should and I argue what about the degree or the college experience - Guess I am also old.

ellenvega
05-06-2010, 03:33 PM
Of course everything is about money. Always has been.

If he's smart his rookie contract will set him for life. I don't have a problem with kids leaving early when they are assured big contracts, it's ones that leave early that might not even be drafted that makes me scratch my head.

For selfish reasons, I kinda wish he were staying. I'm a lot bigger fan of the college game than the NBA and I think Butler had a legitimate shot at a title next season and it would've been a thrill to watch them.

siliconzag
05-06-2010, 05:10 PM
Much of my own disillusionment with the growing capitalistic trend among the young is in part due to my own education, which emphasized values which are possibly becoming anachronistic.

During my days at GU, this was a popular book:

http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/book.asp?isbn=9780300064056

The concept here is not a new one. It discusses in fair detail what constitutes an educated person. It addresses the question of why an education is an important endeavor.

For me during a time when I sought to provide several degrees of separation between adolescent ignorance and becoming college educated, I found sports to be a sanctuary from the intensity of the endeavor. It was a welcome distraction, and provided an outlet or an escape. It also was a bonding experience to enjoy with fellow students. I never saw any inherent contradiction between an athletic program and academic pursuits. Sure we all had professional goals, but most of us understood that college was a first step, a necessary but not sufficient training for the job market. Some went to medical school, some went to Law school. Some went into the job market, most ill prepared to immediately contribute. Sports provided fellowship, but there was never any serious preoccupation with making the final four or winning championships.

Of course, times have changed, and the importance of sports, it appears to this old geezer at least, has increased and perhaps the concept of the Newman type University has become less "relevant" (There is that word from the 60s which I now despise).

Anyway, I think there is a generational discontinuity going on. The Jesuits I knew taught us to think of our fellow humans and being ethical young men and women first, and this began with how we treated our fellow students. Materialism was considered tantamount to greed.

For me the arguments about how to best optimize your return on your investment (whether it is the right time to maximize your financial opportunity) is a peripheral consideration. It is lower on the Maslow heirarchical scale, although I don't deny that it may be important for some. I believe that Mr. Haywood will get his degree.

As an aside, if I were one of his teammates, I would be very disappointed at the news of his departure because it would be nice when you are older to have a memory of winning the final four or at least returning to try again. For the rest of us, speaking very selfishly, it would be nice to see him slay the Duke Dragon this time.

Finally, I don't judge Gordon negatively for his choice. I just wish he'd made a different one.

maynard g krebs
05-06-2010, 05:47 PM
I find it ironic that 2 doctors are are putting down a kid for making a common sense career choice. You guys are at the top of the economic heap in this country, and only a small percentage of the population has the intellectual capacity to get where you are.

The vast majority of us are in much lower paying occupations than you, and understanding this choice is a complete no-brainer. Get some effin' perspective. What if the kid gets in a wreck (Hurley, Jason Williams) and loses his career?

The vast majority of players are never gonna get grad degrees and make big bucks that way.

You guys are ridiculous. Ever think about the 50 million people who can't afford your services in this country?

Rant over.

Zag79
05-07-2010, 12:33 AM
if i could make 13 million playing the game i love, i would quit anything i was doing. :D an education is so you can get a job to support yourself and family. these kids are doing that only better! they are at the top of there field. your on posters. balling it up and getting paid. or getting a degree to... get a job? no thanks, lottery pick its a done deal.

HillBillyZag
05-07-2010, 08:52 AM
sili,I sometimes disagree with your opinions, but I always read and enjoy your threads. You have Class, my friend!

siliconzag
05-07-2010, 11:42 AM
HillBillyZag. I seem to remember some disagreements. I can't remember over what. Only that you argued your points well, and that you were wrong. ;)
Have a great weekend HBZ. Obviously we are on the older side of the generation gap.

A presto,
Sili

primal23
05-07-2010, 03:01 PM
I find it ironic that 2 doctors are are putting down a kid for making a common sense career choice. You guys are at the top of the economic heap in this country, and only a small percentage of the population has the intellectual capacity to get where you are.

The vast majority of us are in much lower paying occupations than you, and understanding this choice is a complete no-brainer. Get some effin' perspective. What if the kid gets in a wreck (Hurley, Jason Williams) and loses his career?

The vast majority of players are never gonna get grad degrees and make big bucks that way.

You guys are ridiculous. Ever think about the 50 million people who can't afford your services in this country?

Rant over.

+1

cjm720
05-07-2010, 03:17 PM
I find it ironic that 2 doctors are are putting down a kid for making a common sense career choice. You guys are at the top of the economic heap in this country, and only a small percentage of the population has the intellectual capacity to get where you are.

The vast majority of us are in much lower paying occupations than you, and understanding this choice is a complete no-brainer. Get some effin' perspective. What if the kid gets in a wreck (Hurley, Jason Williams) and loses his career?

The vast majority of players are never gonna get grad degrees and make big bucks that way.

You guys are ridiculous. Ever think about the 50 million people who can't afford your services in this country?

Rant over.


Ever think about the 50 million people who can't afford your services in this country?

You had me until this...not sure what your inflated number and political poke has anything to do with going pro early...

maynard g krebs
05-07-2010, 04:55 PM
Ever think about the 50 million people who can't afford your services in this country?

You had me until this...not sure what your inflated number and political poke has anything to do with going pro early...

Fair enough. I was a tad emotional when posting this, and in hindsight I'd leave that out. However, I'd characterize the comment as socioeconomic, not political. A big diff to me, though some will see it as splitting hairs- so be it.

I've heard 48 mill commonly, so I rounded up. Sorry.

The purpose behind my ill-advised comment was to illustrate that these guys are out of touch. Kind of reminded me of when Bush Sr. went into a supermarket and was amazed by the scanners.

I'll try to be more circumspect in the future.