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BobZag
04-07-2010, 04:03 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2010/news/story?id=5064967

Five UK underclassmen exit for the NBA, which is fine by me. But what kind of connection do UK fans really have with their team? Just has the feel of a meat market, no family atmosphere, few if any friends made, kind of a pro free agency feel to it.

HillBillyZag
04-07-2010, 04:15 PM
To call Kentucky anything more than a developmental Team for the NBA would be an insult to Div1 College hoops. It won't be long until Cal is under the microscope again. Its a travesty.

MickMick
04-07-2010, 04:55 PM
Rumor has it that Wall and Cousins have stopped attending classes altogether. There have been hints that Orton and Bledsoe are taking their academics lightly as well. Further, a couple of these players were seen "hanging" with some uncommitted players at the McDonald's High School All America game.

The inference here appears on the edge of blatant. Scholarship players skipping school to "recruit" the next generation of players. (Calling this skipping is being nice as they are actually drop outs) Whether intended or not, this could evolve into a culture that will become the NCAA's biggest nightmare. Multiply the scenario by 25 schools and you might even get the Federal Government stepping in. The politics are simply bad.

I can't believe that the NCAA will let this type of situation go unchecked. They are asking for trouble if they do.

MedZag
04-07-2010, 04:57 PM
Over under on there being NCAA violation allegations involving at least one of the players in the next 2 years?

pbriz
04-07-2010, 05:02 PM
To call Kentucky anything more than a developmental Team for the NBA would be an insult to Div1 College hoops. It won't be long until Cal is under the microscope again. Its a travesty.

It is a travesty but your first sentence is probably exactly what Calipari pitches to recruits. I will get you into the NBA after one year of college

MDABE80
04-07-2010, 05:19 PM
Desparate to retur to the primacy in college basketball, Kentucky hired the one guy who leaves schools with penalties pending each and every stop he's made. If Tark was in trouble, there's no reason why Calipari shouldn't be sent to the showers never to return to the confines of a university.

How much is it worth for a university to be no 1? Apparently quite a lot when it comes to Kentucky. The fans don't seem to mind. When a kid's told the coach will get them to the NBA after an obligatory year, the kid takes the offer. Makes me wonder if there's anything to be done about it. Since the NCAA is the template for making money on college athletics (96 teams in the tournament next year), it's almost impossible to break things up. Several administrators and the athletes would have to speak up. They don't...money money money....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nflDcYJkHuQ...:)

CDC84
04-07-2010, 05:46 PM
Rumor has it that Wall and Cousins have stopped attending classes altogether. There have been hints that Orton and Bledsoe are taking their academics lightly as well.

And that will get you into APR trouble with the NCAA. That's why I will always have a ton of respect for Kevin Durant. He stayed true to his promise to Rick Barnes that if he left Texas early, he would finish his last semester in good academic standing so that Texas wouldn't be harmed APR wise.

VinnyZag
04-07-2010, 06:11 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2010/news/story?id=5064967

Five UK underclassmen exit for the NBA, which is fine by me. But what kind of connection do UK fans really have with their team? Just has the feel of a meat market, no family atmosphere, few if any friends made, kind of a pro free agency feel to it.

I know a few Kentucky fans, and they don't care. They feel like Tubby and Gillespie ruined the program, and there's a win-at-any-costs attitude. Surely they knew what they were getting with Cal.

johno
04-07-2010, 06:12 PM
Desparate to retur to the primacy in college basketball, Kentucky hired the one guy who leaves schools with penalties pending each and every stop he's made. If Tark was in trouble, there's no reason why Calipari shouldn't be sent to the showers never to return to the confines of a university.

How much is it worth for a university to be no 1? Apparently quite a lot when it comes to Kentucky. The fans don't seem to mind. When a kid's told the coach will get them to the NBA after an obligatory year, the kid takes the offer. Makes me wonder if there's anything to be done about it. Since the NCAA is the template for making money on college athletics (96 teams in the tournament next year), it's almost impossible to break things up. Several administrators and the athletes would have to speak up. They don't...money money money....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nflDcYJkHuQ...:)

Are you by inference, promoting socialism (grin).

MDABE80
04-07-2010, 06:16 PM
Dunno...NEVER! Who's inference?

zagfan24
04-07-2010, 06:54 PM
I can't believe Orton declared after averaging 3.4 points and 3.3 rebounds per game...so sad how warped some guys prospects and perspectives seem to be. I know he was solid defensively (blocked a lot of shots at least) and wasn't asked to score, but I'm willing to bet he regrets this decision mightily in a few years.

BroncoZAG615
04-07-2010, 06:59 PM
I can't believe Orton declared after averaging 3.4 points and 3.3 rebounds per game...so sad how warped some guys prospects and perspectives seem to be. I know he was solid defensively (blocked a lot of shots at least) and wasn't asked to score, but I'm willing to bet he regrets this decision mightily in a few years.

Why can't you believe it? The NBA has shown that it can make great use out of athletic centers who can defend. All Orton is doing is opening the doors to hear what scouts and GM's have to say. He hasn't signed with an agent so he is able to come back for another year at Kentucky.

He won't regret anything about this decision. If he chooses to stay in the draft because of bad advice, then he may regret it.

Birddog
04-07-2010, 07:12 PM
I can't believe Orton declared after averaging 3.4 points and 3.3 rebounds per game..
I'd heard it before and the linked video confirmed it. Orton is a projected 1st round pick.

asoc
04-07-2010, 07:12 PM
College is a stepping stone to a professional career.
What is wrong with that?

How much money do schools make off these top athletes?

How has Gonzaga's profile risen because of the basketball program being so successful? How much has enrollment increased? Money came in from the local community?

If you want the NCAA to be a purely amateur endeavor then things need to change drastically both in the NCAA and in how professional teams find and develop players.

Right now, NBA teams let others do all the work for them in developing players.

As a professional athlete, you only have so long to make money. Staying four years cuts into that time.

If you are good enough to play professionally and you want to do so, then you should go pro.

Perhaps there should be different core requirements for these type of players for colleges. Put them into business classes that teach them about managing money properly and dealing with the media. As well as classes that teach them about places around the world where they could find themselves playing professionally.

That way you are sending them out into the world prepared as best they can for the short time they spend at your school.

Instead of making them take classes that will not prepare them for what they will face as a 19, 20 or 21 year old professional athlete.

If they were being taught something that was actually going to benefit them directly in 12 months maybe they wouldn't just blow off their classes.

Lets face it. These men aren't interested in College as much as they are about playing professional ball (otherwise they would stay in college). The developmental and professional structure in the US FORCES them to go to College for at least one year.

How much money is made off of the NCAA tournament? Who are the ones playing these games? How much money do those players make? How much does each conference make?

There are options to change this culture.
But people are so tied into this idea of an "amateur athlete" and the sanctity of the college athlete that it will never happen.

Following the growth of Soccer in this country there is an interesting balance that is being struck. MLS teams are required by the league to have their own youth development programs and academies. These organizations have to keep the kids college eligibility though. But starting this season, each team is allowed two roster spots for home grown players that will not count against the salary cap.

Why can't NBA teams create their own developmental academies? They can get these kids in a professional environment starting at around 15 or 16 where they can continue their education and prepare them for life at a higher level of play. Whether that is College or as a professional player. You can keep a lot of the seedier sides of the business away from these kids.

There needs to be more options for kids who want to become professional players. College can't be the only way into the league for a youth player in the US. And sending them off to Europe should not be an option. They should have a viable alternative in the US.

HillBillyZag
04-07-2010, 07:32 PM
Do you have any idea of the minute percentage of Collegiate players who have the talent to even get into the NBA,?, Let alone be a lottery pick and make instant millions? Are you willing to penalize thousands of players for probably a hundred or so?

zagfan24
04-07-2010, 07:37 PM
Why can't you believe it? The NBA has shown that it can make great use out of athletic centers who can defend. All Orton is doing is opening the doors to hear what scouts and GM's have to say. He hasn't signed with an agent so he is able to come back for another year at Kentucky.

He won't regret anything about this decision. If he chooses to stay in the draft because of bad advice, then he may regret it.

My bad...didn't know he hadn't chosen an agent based on what I saw on ESPN's bottom line tonight.

The more I think about it, it's understandable to try to capitalize on Kentucky's success this year..and I have nothing against Orton personally. I feel like bigs just get so overrated and drafted too high every year because of the "you can't teach size" mentality...and the Kwames, Olowokandis, etc. have shown that you need a lot more than size. Perhaps Orton has more...I just think he'd be better off developing the other parts of his game.

asoc
04-07-2010, 08:10 PM
There is the ability for Colleges to break away from the NCAA format as well.

BYU's Men's Soccer team can provide an example.

http://www.byusoccer.com/pdl.php

BYU was the first University sponsored soccer program to ever purchase a franchise and that will compete at a level considered higher than NCAA soccer in the pyramid of US soccer development.

http://soccer.byu.edu/history.html

This isn't a viable option for a basketball team because of the developmental structure of the sport in the US. But it is an example of what could be done.

In the PDL, they do allow for professional teams. The Kitsap Pumas are such a team I believe. A college could purchase a PDL franchise and pay their players.
--------------------
Also, there are some changes in the works with the NCAA that will effect international recruits for college basketball. But these rulings could also open the door for some change in the developmental structure of basketball in the US, not just for recruiting internationally.

Original article I linked on these forums awhile back.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=4579737

And more up to date info with links here
http://www.kaburakis.com/2010/01/19/amateurism-policy-news-and-props/

asoc
04-07-2010, 08:17 PM
Do you have any idea of the minute percentage of Collegiate players who have the talent to even get into the NBA,?, Let alone be a lottery pick and make instant millions? Are you willing to penalize thousands of players for probably a hundred or so?

If you are referring to my post. Can you be more specific on your criticisms of it?

The NBA isn't the only professional league in the world. And players can make a respectable living playing elsewhere.

MDABE80
04-07-2010, 08:38 PM
They should go overseas then Assoc. We think of college as a more academic endevor where kids come to learn something and develop as adults. NBA doesn't seem to have major in anything. If it's about the money....and that's it...they should go mak emoney. Just an opinion but something in life should be deferred...and it's not education. I know , I know...they can go make millions and then come back or being college and go from there! It doesn't happen often...and if it does, there's headlines for the player who returns and graduates.

Skill...such as basketball can be learned or enhanced in the NBA. No doubt...but when the skills fade and the player is shown the door, we'd like to think he has a developed, educated life to "fall back " on. He'll live the huge majority of adulthood as a former player...how nice. OR he might be able to go back to school and see what he missed. Nicer! He'll live th emajority of his life NOT as a player...might even be rich...but does he know enough to contribute in other areas or is this just about ME ME ME...and he lines his pockets and does nothing else but respire? COuld be ..it's his right in America do do just that.

At GU, we like to think we educate those who the world needs most. Not so in other places. Kentucky breeds ballplayers...when they play basketball. Calipari takes 17-18 yr olds and trains em to ball. Isn't there more? He doesn't think so....and he'll do anything and everything to breed em....for an NBA career. Is that all there is? I think options are taken from children before they know they have them. It's abuse and it's robbery....from those who need support most as they go into the world....to contribute.

Admittedly I have a different world view. Most may not share it. But will the world get better with ballers or people who contribute to others in their caeers? You be the judge...I know the answer. We were always critical of baubbles being shown to the Natives...they sold land and other things in trade. We thought it was unfair and unkind to them...because they didn't know enough to understand the deals and what precious things they were dealing away. IN principle, will we stand by silently and watch similar events occur with our kids...you know them...inexperienced children who leap high and run fast? Not for me...maybe somebody but not for me...Kids need school...and then NBA...not the other way around. But that's just what an old , steady hand thinks...Abe...and jesus this old typewriter sticks too much.

CDC84
04-07-2010, 09:52 PM
I just want to know how you test the waters at a time when you're supposed to start getting ready for finals? Forget about UK, Wall and all of those guys....this could be a junior at Savannah State with a solid GPA who is a possible lottery pick. It's the most important decision in the kid's life, and he has to make it at the most important time in the academic calendar.

Moving up the draft decision deadline was one of the stupidest decisions college basketball has made in the last 25 years. It only benefits the 3-4 factory school coaches like Calipari who regularly lose underclassmen to the draft and who have the recruiting power to replace lost NBA talent with future NBA talent like Brandon Knight and CJ Leslie. Every other coach in America isn't going to find a player in the spring who is good enough to replace the guy they lost to the draft. All the new deadline does is allow guys like Calipari to hit the golf course sooner.

asoc
04-07-2010, 10:27 PM
So how do you fix that?
Players should have an option besides leaving for Europe until they can break into the NBA.

As I posted earlier, perhaps Colleges should adjust the classes these potential pros take?

Don't just give them cupcake courses, but put them in classes that will actually help prepare them for life as a professional athlete. Teach them how to manage their money. How to plan ahead for a life outside of playing. Teach them about giving back to the community they represent as a professional athlete. Let them take classes on the history of professional sports. Its impact on society, etc.

What if aspiring pros were able to get into an academy system where they were treated like professionals? They don't have to pay anything, but they do have to follow certain rules.

They still take high school classes and have tutors to help them. They are held to certain standards of behavior or they are kicked out. They practice like professionals. The academy would have a nutritionist on hand to make sure they are eating proper meals. They would have professional coaches and trainers for their development both physically as well as mentally for the game.

All of this would be paid for by an NBA team. Like how a College does it now, except players would join around the age of 16. Players would not get paid, it is similar to a college scholarship. They would retain all eligibility for college.

The NBA team would get first shot at players coming up through their system, they could bypass the draft. If a player from an academy plays a full four years in college then they can go straight to any team.

In order for an NBA team to claim a player, that player must have spent X amount of time in their academy/youth system.

NBA teams would pick the best players in their territory for these spots.

Basically, these kids that are not interested in College, but have aspirations of playing professionally have the opportunity to get into a professional environment at the age of 16. Where they have to continue their education, but are given the best training you can get in order to become a professional athlete. And if they aren't ready by the time they graduate they can still go to college or head to Europe. But ideally those years in the Academy, in a professional environment, will have helped shape them into responsible adults. At least responsible enough to make an informed decision on what the next step to take is.

Also, you should not knock professional athletes as "selfish"
There are selfish people in every profession where it is only about "me me me"
And there are many, very many professional athletes who are upstanding members of their communities and contribute lots of time and money to charities.

And those players at Kentucky made a choice. It may not be the choice you would make. But they had a choice, and they made it. Everyone deserves a chance to make choices. To succeed and to fail.

If they can make money playing basketball. Good for them. If Kentucky can help them along the way. Good for Kentucky.

MDABE80
04-07-2010, 11:14 PM
Nice plan Assoc...better check with NBA though...

Uninformed choices aren't choices at all.

As for your "classes"...you've described college. Nice going! :)

Ezag
04-07-2010, 11:40 PM
never liked Calipari, slimy, dishonest coach who is not good for any school. Thank God he left Memphis, unfortunately he'll bring down Kentucky in the end.

Martin Centre Mad Man
04-08-2010, 05:20 AM
My thoughts:

I would rather have Gonzaga's 2009 recruiting class than Kentucky's. Gonzaga's was ignored by the national media and Kentucky's was ranked as one of the very best of all time. I thought that the Kentucky class really wasn't that great. They got a lot of players who were planning to stay for exactly one year. Why is that a great class? If they miss out on the National Championship in their freshman year, there will be no chance to develop as players and become a better team over time.

I would rather have a class of players who want to grow together as a team, develop as human beings, and ultimately work long and hard to achieve some team goals over time. Gonzaga will have a much better team in the 2010-2011 season than Kentucky. In the end, I bet that Elias Harris will win more NCAA Tournament games in his collegiate career than John Wall did.

cbbfanatic
04-08-2010, 07:41 AM
My thoughts:
Gonzaga will have a much better team in the 2010-2011 season than Kentucky.

You think next years Gonzaga team will be MUCH better than wire to wire top 5, 1 seed, and elite 8?

So i am guessing its final four or bust for you...

about uk though, the fans, school, boosters etc have gotten exactly what they have wanted so far with cal (sans a final four or title this year). i know a few uk fans, and they are slightly in denial about the shadier side of cal, but in the end, i dont think they care as long as they win. they are desperate to not become indiana basketball or notre dame football, and they'll do whatever they can to make sure it doesnt happen. it doesnt seem like a sustainable model to me, but i have little doubt that if cal sticks around 6-7 years and doesnt get in significant ncaa trouble, he's going to win a title there - one of these years its going to work out just right for him, and the way the overall state of the game has deteriorated lately, it just seems like an inevitability.

i detest the guy, but cal does a better job than anyone of getting freshman to play at a high level immediately and consistently. its easy to say that you or i could have coached derrick rose, tyreke evans, and john wall to being lottery picks after one year as they came in as such (relatively) complete products, but he has done it while winning a ton of games and not having too many problems flare up to the point where the general public hears about it. amazing how the guy manages egos and gets kids from point a to point b (nba).

the absolute best part of calipari and kentucky, to me, is how ALL kentucky fans (the guys i talk to regularly, as well as internet fans) just bashed the hell out of Calipari when they were in their coach search that produced BCG. i heard and read stuff about how they would never sell out with a guy like that, how they have integrity, how cal only dominates weak competition etc. you name it, and these guys were just killing calipari. a couple years pass, and all of a sudden, the guy is the savior. funny stuff. shows what desperation can do to a fanbase.

HillBillyZag
04-08-2010, 07:57 AM
This thread goes a long way in seperating those fans whose main love is for the College game and their own favorite School or Alma Mater and those who feel that the NBA game is the zenith of the hoops world and that Collegiate basketball is there primarily to provide the NBA with fresh meat.

Gufan
04-08-2010, 08:04 AM
about uk though, the fans, school, boosters etc have gotten exactly what they have wanted so far with cal (sans a final four or title this year).



So, losing to a team without it's point guard before reaching the final 4, while having a roster that was supremely talented to the team they lost to is exactly what they wanted? Somehow I don't buy it.

I understand he put them back on the map so to speak, but they want much more than that. This year's chances were much better than next for a deep run.

titopoet
04-08-2010, 08:45 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2010/news/story?id=5064967

Five UK underclassmen exit for the NBA, which is fine by me. But what kind of connection do UK fans really have with their team? Just has the feel of a meat market, no family atmosphere, few if any friends made, kind of a pro free agency feel to it.

It is worst than that, Bob. It seems Kentucky doesn't even care for its players and their own thoughts. The dagger had a report (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/Nobody-told-Patrick-Patterson-he-was-entering-th?urn=ncaab,232942) that it news to Patrick Patterson that he was declaring for the draft. I guess they want out with the old and in with the new earlier.

Does Kentucky have a connection with its players, let alone its fans?

cjm720
04-08-2010, 08:52 AM
I hate the NBA's have-to-be-19-year-old rule for reasons just like this.

U Zig, I Zag
04-08-2010, 08:57 AM
The real question is, does John Wall 'raise the roof' when he gets his papers back and passes (C-, anyone?)? Maybe he chest bumps his prof, or Cousins elbows the prof's head while he has him pinned down on his desk...

I can not imagine that some of these kids even go to class. Can you really imagine Cousins taking classes seriously?

At this point, if they think they are ready for the NBA let them go straight-away. It makes college basketball into a joke. I would take 10 Matts over 20 John Walls any day of the week. Not kidding one bit.

I DON'T WANT one and dones' at GU (JUCO Junior that blows up big? dif story - take the money and run, kid - you've earned it).

Martin Centre Mad Man
04-08-2010, 08:58 AM
You think next years Gonzaga team will be MUCH better than wire to wire top 5, 1 seed, and elite 8?

So i am guessing its final four or bust for you...

No. I think that the 2010-2011 Zags will be much better than the 2010-2011 Wildcats.

U Zig, I Zag
04-08-2010, 09:03 AM
This thread goes a long way in seperating those fans whose main love is for the College game and their own favorite School or Alma Mater and those who feel that the NBA game is the zenith of the hoops world and that Collegiate basketball is there primarily to provide the NBA with fresh meat.

Kind of. I know you have no love for NBA talk and I have called you out on it before.

I wouldn't want any kids in a GU uniform (1-8 anyway) that don't think they have a legit chance of proving themselves and playing SOMEPLACE as a pro. Get paid to play basketball? Something they already love? Sign me up.

People on this board need to accept that fact that it is important that Zags make it someplace, in basketball, beyond GU. You may not be a one and done, but give it 3 years and we can make you into a pro. We want those kids with the potential and the God-given talent that will work at becoming even better.

cbbfanatic
04-08-2010, 09:04 AM
So, losing to a team without it's point guard before reaching the final 4, while having a roster that was supremely talented to the team they lost to is exactly what they wanted? Somehow I don't buy it.

I understand he put them back on the map so to speak, but they want much more than that. This year's chances were much better than next for a deep run.

i guess you skipped over the part in parentheses...

here's what they wanted and got (think more on a "big picture" level, and not just looking at one year, the coach's FIRST year) - they got a guy that will do anything to win and cares ONLY about winning, a guy that will bring in nba talent left and right, a guy that will always have a roster that will be able to compete in march, a guy that is gregarious with the media and will bring the university TONS of publicity, coverage, hype, etc, and a guy with the leadership and charisma to unite the team, fanbase, and boosters. uk now has more of a feeling of having a purpose than they did before. they are now in the game of competing for titles. it didnt happen in year 1, but huge strides were made. for the record, i dont think his approach is entirely sustainable (and i hope he fails there, to be honest), im just talking about the guy from a detached perspective, as well as what i hear from uk fan friends of mine.

you cant win it all every year. bad breaks happen, you run into tough matchups, or you shoot about 2% from 3... it happens. the best teams dont always win, and after this year, nobody should be debating that. i maintain that next years field will be as weak, or weaker, than this years. the 2010 class is not as highly regarded, and the early entrants to the NBA will likely be more rampant than in years past, for several key reasons.

titopoet
04-08-2010, 09:39 AM
No. I think that the 2010-2011 Zags will be much better than the 2010-2011 Wildcats.

I hope so, but I don't put anything past Coach Cal. He has already stolen Kanter from UW and all of Wakes recruits are available. Kanter is a beast.

CDC84
04-08-2010, 09:43 AM
I've never known a Gonzaga player who has wanted to play pro ball but who hasn't been able to....especially since Tommy Lloyd came on board. You may have to get your passport, but you'll play and get paid. If Ira Brown can make money playing the game, just about anyone can.

BlueVoodoo07
04-08-2010, 10:36 AM
How is there class coming in this year? Calipari will be the next Nets coach.

surfmonkey89
04-08-2010, 11:49 AM
For me the more interesting thing from this article is that apparently the current players are being used to recruit high schoolers. Pretty cheap way to set up your own farm system.

I guess "being used" might be a bit harsh, since we don't know if they're doing it on their own or not, but since it's Calipari I assume he has some part of it.

maynard g krebs
04-08-2010, 01:25 PM
I blame this ultra liberal trend of protecting the few at the expense of the rights and freedoms of the masses.

FWIW, that would be the exact opposite of liberal. But of course this board is not the place for that conversation.

cjm720
04-08-2010, 02:51 PM
FWIW, that would be the exact opposite of liberal. But of course this board is not the place for that conversation.

Hilarious.

Try here http://guboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=12

asoc
04-08-2010, 03:49 PM
Nice plan Assoc...better check with NBA though...

Uninformed choices aren't choices at all.

As for your "classes"...you've described college. Nice going! :)

I do not expect the NBA to change any time soon. They get all the talent they want for free right now. They pay nothing to develop the incoming talent.

An uninformed choice is still a choice. And a person has the choice to get informed.

As for the "classes" I am talking about skipping the lame core classes every college student takes there first 1-2 years. Giving these students who are likely to stay only 1 or 2 years in college a tailored course load that will better prepare them for what they will face as professional athletes.


This thread goes a long way in seperating those fans whose main love is for the College game and their own favorite School or Alma Mater and those who feel that the NBA game is the zenith of the hoops world and that Collegiate basketball is there primarily to provide the NBA with fresh meat.
I do not watch the NBA. But I do have my opinion on professional sports.
I am also of the opinion that college athletes on scholarship are professional athletes. They are getting paid to play a sport.

And until the development ladder/structure changes for Basketball, College Basketball will be seen as the place for players to go and continue their development to become a professional player. I don't think that is right. So I don't really care that these players who are in College for one year blow off their classes after their season is done.

Until there is a viable option for these players outside of going to College people shouldn't be complaining about these types of situations.

I think it would be better for the college game if there was an alternative for these individuals.

CDC84
04-08-2010, 04:38 PM
A friend of mine would ask the following question at this point: so is a sax player who gets university scholarship money to go to music school at Kentucky a professional musician? Let's suppose that during his freshman year, the sax player experiences a massive growth in his playing. Then Wynton Marsalis discovers the sax player playing at a raging UK frat party and invites him to join his band for big money? The sax player bolts UK to join Wynton's band. The only difference between the sax player and John Wall the basketball player is that the sax player receives academic credit for developing his ability on the sax, whereas Wall gets zero credit for developing his ability at basketball. Both are getting free rides to learn a skill. Actually, there is a difference because unlike the sax player, Wall has to take additional classes in order to earn the credits necessary to be eligible to develop his ability to play basketball.

My friend would also argue that despite what many ivory tower elitists might think, the acumen and discipline that's required to be an elite college basketball player is just as much as being an elite musician, and anyone who doesn't think so hasn't been around the college game enough and hasn't talked to enough players and coaches. John Wall isn't a student-athlete, he's actually a student-student-athlete. Because Wall isn't receiving academic credit for doing something that is just as difficult, time consuming are artful as learning the sax, my friend has zero problems with Wall "using" UK as a one year stepping stone towards a NBA career if the sax player is allowed to bolt UK after one year for Wynton's band.

It's a different way of looking at it. Granted, the likelihood of some college sax player on a music scholarship getting discovered by Wynton at a campus kegger isn't likely to happen, but the possibility exists.......

MDABE80
04-08-2010, 04:54 PM
CDC...the student sax play who's on a ride can be a professional musician at the same time....and earn lots of money to be one. It's very different from basketball players on scholarship.
BB players can't earn money..unless it's the translation for a scholarship.
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Voodoo...only to help you..., it's "their" not "there" the way you used it. Sorry BUB..it's a pet peeve of mine. Calipari already coached the Nets and was fired after a 3-17 start in his 2nd season.

deathchina
04-08-2010, 05:07 PM
Very good post CDC. I'm actually a professional musician, and I like your comparison. Athletes and musicians have a mutual level of respect and understanding because both pursuits require extreme attention to detail and ridiculous amounts of repetition. You train your whole life to do a couple "simple" motions very very precisely, and under pressure.

And I can tell you that when I was in college I also "blew off" classes (which made finals week hell) in order to have more time to practice my instrument. I was very aware that learning the history of the USSR and studying Mayan art forms were basically a waste of time, even if I was forced to take non-music classes. I was in college for one main reason. . . to improve as a musician and to turn that improvement into gainful employment post graduation. And if someone had offered me a good job after my freshman or sophomore year you can bet I was out of there in a second. I know a couple musicians who have either skipped college, or left college midway because they won an audition or began concertizing. To me, this is no different than John Wall saying adios to Kentucky. Let's be honest. He's there for one reason..to make it to the NBA.

I think it's very hard for some people to understand this single minded pursuit of something. People always say "well, you have to be well rounded and have a backup plan".....Yes, that's easy to say if you haven't spent most of your life pursuing one goal. To people that are of that mindset it's a lot easier to figure out if you CAN make it first, and figure out a backup plan later.

Just my two cents.




A friend of mine would ask the following question at this point: so is a sax player who gets university scholarship money to go to music school at Kentucky a professional musician? Let's suppose that during his freshman year, the sax player experiences a massive growth in his playing. Then Wynton Marsalis discovers the sax player playing at a raging UK frat party and invites him to join his band for big money? The sax player bolts UK to join Wynton's band. The only difference between the sax player and John Wall the basketball player is that the sax player receives academic credit for developing his ability on the sax, whereas Wall gets zero credit for developing his ability at basketball. Both are getting free rides to learn a skill. Actually, there is a difference because unlike the sax player, Wall has to take additional classes in order to earn the credits necessary to be eligible to develop his ability to play basketball.

My friend would also argue that despite what many ivory tower elitists might think, the acumen and discipline that's required to be an elite college basketball player is just as much as being an elite musician, and anyone who doesn't think so hasn't been around the college game enough and hasn't talked to enough players and coaches. John Wall isn't a student-athlete, he's actually a student-student-athlete. Because Wall isn't receiving academic credit for doing something that is just as difficult and time consuming as learning the sax, my friend has zero problems with Wall "using" UK as a one year stepping stone towards a NBA career if the sax player is allowed to bolt UK after one year for Wynton's band.

It's a different way of looking at it. Granted, the likelihood of some college sax player on a music scholarship getting discovered by Wynton at a campus kegger isn't likely to happen, but the possibility exists.......

tyko
04-08-2010, 05:07 PM
A friend of mine would ask the following question at this point: so is a sax player who gets university scholarship money to go to music school at Kentucky a professional musician? Let's suppose that during his freshman year, the sax player experiences a massive growth in his playing. Then Wynton Marsalis discovers the sax player playing at a raging UK frat party and invites him to join his band for big money? The sax player bolts UK to join Wynton's band. The only difference between the sax player and John Wall the basketball player is that the sax player receives academic credit for developing his ability on the sax, whereas Wall gets zero credit for developing his ability at basketball. Both are getting free rides to learn a skill. Actually, there is a difference because unlike the sax player, Wall has to take additional classes in order to earn the credits necessary to be eligible to develop his ability to play basketball.

My friend would also argue that despite what many ivory tower elitists might think, the acumen and discipline that's required to be an elite college basketball player is just as much as being an elite musician, and anyone who doesn't think so hasn't been around the college game enough and hasn't talked to enough players and coaches. John Wall isn't a student-athlete, he's actually a student-student-athlete. Because Wall isn't receiving academic credit for doing something that is just as difficult, time consuming are artful as learning the sax, my friend has zero problems with Wall "using" UK as a one year stepping stone towards a NBA career if the sax player is allowed to bolt UK after one year for Wynton's band.

It's a different way of looking at it. Granted, the likelihood of some college sax player on a music scholarship getting discovered by Wynton at a campus kegger isn't likely to happen, but the possibility exists.......

Interesting hypo, but I think you hit the nail on the head in bold. Well, that and the volume of each (gravity x probability). Probably more one and done bballers than sax players each year, and there will be some each year for certain.

Also, the "no credit for basketball" thing has a few problems. First, some programs actually DO give credit for varsity sports (Berkeley, crazy, I know).

Second, let's say NO programs give credit for sports. Now, that fact can cut the other way: If a sax player has a skill that he can get academic credit for, he is a valid academic admit; just like a math genius. If a bball player doesn't get credit for his skill, he isn't admitted on academic merit, and may (almost always) would not have been admitted but for that non-academic skill. I would seem then, that the bball player is probably taking more advantage of the academic institution.

This is all notwithstanding the fact that I think a bball player makes many times more money for the pseudo non-profit academic institution, and therefore, is not taking more advantage than the sax player in those terms. The only ones that matter to the Board of Regents.

CDC84
04-08-2010, 05:09 PM
CDC...the student sax play who's on a ride can be a professional musician at the same time....and earn lots of money to be one. It's very different from basketball players on scholarship.
BB players can't earn money..unless it's the translation for a scholarship.

That might be my initial response as well.

Although, the sax player would probably have to quit school if he wanted to go on a 250 city world tour and make the big bucks. I guess he could sign up for a distance learning program........:)

Keep in mind - that thought experiment isn't mine, but someone who knows me. I couldn't think up something like that.

JohnOGU
04-08-2010, 05:25 PM
Anxious to see if some of them pull a Davon Jefferson... Shame what happened with that kid.