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View Full Version : What about Gray at PG?



karloslonn
04-02-2010, 09:02 AM
It seems to be that the biggest question is who can succesfully run point. Gray could do it. He is a prototypical Calipari PG. It would open up more pt for Kong and Arop while diminishing the minutes for GJ and Meech, which might be a good thing

BlueVoodoo07
04-02-2010, 09:05 AM
It seems to be that the biggest question is who can succesfully run point. Gray could do it. He is a prototypical Calipari PG. It would open up more pt for Kong and Arop while diminishing the minutes for GJ and Meech, which might be a good thing

Yeah he could do it, but why diminish GJ's minutes when he really hasn't got a chance yet to show us what he has. Kentucky didn't get him because he can't play.

WeSayZed
04-02-2010, 09:26 AM
It seems to be that the biggest question is who can succesfully run point. Gray could do it. He is a prototypical Calipari PG. It would open up more pt for Kong and Arop while diminishing the minutes for GJ and Meech, which might be a good thing
I donít think it would diminish GJ minutes, but it would significantly diminish Goodsonís, and I think thatís a choice we should make. We gave Goodson a full season of solid minutes to show signs of progress, but at end of the season he was still one of the worst shooters and worst playmakers Iíve ever seen at the college level. We canít wait on him forever, and I think the reality may be that he is just a very limited role player. He isnít good enough to start next year and we need to start giving GJ minutes, so I think we should start Gray and move Goodson to third on the depth chart.

zag67
04-02-2010, 10:16 AM
I think that we need to wait until next season to make decisions like that. Depending on the improvement of all of the players, that is going to define their playing time. If Meech improves his shot and shows that he can run the team "the best" then he will deserve it. If GJ improves his defense and shows he runs the team the best, then he deserves it. If a new person comes in and beats all of them out, guess what? And lastly, in none of those happen and Steven shows he is the best, then he will earn the most minutes. But in reality, I think that it might end up being a point guard by committee and therefore a combination depending on the team we play and how well they are playing. The players need to work hard and show that they deserve it and I think that both Meech and GJ know what they have to do to get the job. I think that they both know that it is up for grabs and if they want it, they need to be a gym rat and practice and improve where they are weak.
In other words I think that all we are doing is guessing using what we saw this year, but all of them are going to growth this offseason and that is what is going to say who does what. I do think that the competition will make them all stronger and in the end the team stronger. But I also see Steven playing some point no matter what else happens. I say this because even when Meech/GJ/? are on the court, you will still see the maturity of Steven taking over (just like Matt did this year). And again, this is IMO.

theothegreat21
04-02-2010, 10:21 AM
Yeah he could do it, but why diminish GJ's minutes when he really hasn't got a chance yet to show us what he has. Kentucky didn't get him because he can't play.

Sorry to bring this up, but the Kentucky argument is one of the biggest pet peeves I have. GJ committed as a freshman to Kentucky, when he was considered one of the elite prospects in his class. However, over the next three years, GJ didn't quite develop as expected, while other kids grew and developed at a rapid pace. It's also important to note that Billy Gillespie, who was the coach at Kentucky at the time, was fired in part for his inability to bring quality recruits to Kentucky.

The more important thing to look at with GJ is the schools that were interested after his release from Kentucky.....VCU, Oregon, Gonzaga, Cincinnati, and Georgia. These are all fine schools, but I think if we saw that offer list and interest list for GJ and he hadn't been committed to Kentucky, we probably wouldn't be as excited about him and clamoring for all this potential people think he has.

cjm720
04-02-2010, 10:37 AM
You would take away from Gray's strength (shooting, slashing, moving off the ball) to put him in a position to highlight his greatest weakness (dribbling).

cjm720
04-02-2010, 10:40 AM
Sorry to bring this up, but the Kentucky argument is one of the biggest pet peeves I have. GJ committed as a freshman to Kentucky, when he was considered one of the elite prospects in his class. However, over the next three years, GJ didn't quite develop as expected, while other kids grew and developed at a rapid pace. It's also important to note that Billy Gillespie, who was the coach at Kentucky at the time, was fired in part for his inability to bring quality recruits to Kentucky.

The more important thing to look at with GJ is the schools that were interested after his release from Kentucky.....VCU, Oregon, Gonzaga, Cincinnati, and Georgia. These are all fine schools, but I think if we saw that offer list and interest list for GJ and he hadn't been committed to Kentucky, we probably wouldn't be as excited about him and clamoring for all this potential people think he has.

And Cal prefers big guards. GJ's 6'

cjm720
04-02-2010, 10:43 AM
He isnít good enough to start next year and we need to start giving GJ minutes, so I think we should start Gray and move Goodson to third on the depth chart.

So move Gray to a position that is our weakest (and more best guard out of his comfort zone), move a starter to 3rd on the depth chart, and give GJ more minutes. The latter I get, the rest?????????....glad you're not coach.

Zagdawg
04-02-2010, 10:45 AM
GJ didn't go to Kentucky because Wall took his spot-- If Wall did not go to Kentucky, I would expect that we would not have GJ.

I would like to see GJ given a shot.

He has had a year to learn the system and his offensive abilities will give the rest of the team better opportunites as he keeps the opponents honest on the defensive end.

Anyone we bring in (JC) will need time to learn the system.

Jedster
04-02-2010, 11:06 AM
GJ didn't go to Kentucky because Wall took his spot-- If Wall did not go to Kentucky, I would expect that we would not have GJ.

I would like to see GJ given a shot.

He has had a year to learn the system and his offensive abilities will give the rest of the team better opportunites as he keeps the opponents honest on the defensive end.

Anyone we bring in (JC) will need time to learn the system.


He has had a shot every day in practice to prove that he deserves playing time. He will continue to try and show it this summer and next year.

I would rather see GG get playing time at pg rather than SG. GG has the tools to be a good pg with great vision and he's displayed in his limited time an ability to distribute the ball.As already mentioned, Steven's greatest assets are his shooting and slashing. He has also been one of our best defenders. We can't overload him with too much or he'll be dead by mid-season.

WeSayZed
04-02-2010, 11:22 AM
I think that we need to wait until next season to make decisions like that. Depending on the improvement of all of the players, that is going to define their playing time. If Meech improves his shot and shows that he can run the team "the best" then he will deserve it. If GJ improves his defense and shows he runs the team the best, then he deserves it. If a new person comes in and beats all of them out, guess what? And lastly, in none of those happen and Steven shows he is the best, then he will earn the most minutes. But in reality, I think that it might end up being a point guard by committee and therefore a combination depending on the team we play and how well they are playing. The players need to work hard and show that they deserve it and I think that both Meech and GJ know what they have to do to get the job. I think that they both know that it is up for grabs and if they want it, they need to be a gym rat and practice and improve where they are weak.
In other words I think that all we are doing is guessing using what we saw this year, but all of them are going to growth this offseason and that is what is going to say who does what. I do think that the competition will make them all stronger and in the end the team stronger. But I also see Steven playing some point no matter what else happens. I say this because even when Meech/GJ/? are on the court, you will still see the maturity of Steven taking over (just like Matt did this year). And again, this is IMO.
I hear what youíre saying, but I think at the college level you have to do a bit more planning in advance. These kids only have 4 years to prepare for a possible pro career and I think you have to give them a solid chance to achieve that goal, and I think you have to plan that out a bit. If this was pro basketball Goodson probably would have been benched 10 games into the year, but Few stuck with him and gave him every chance to get things turned around. Having done that, however, I think Few now owes the same chance to GJ and other players. If Gray could have a good year as a starting PG that would improve his pro-potential a lot. GJ I think deserves solid minutes to show what he can do as well, and to show that heís ready to start when Gray graduates. It must be tough when youíre dealing with a young player like Goodson who is really struggling. I think Few and Goodson will likely have some talks this summer and come to an understanding about what his role will be next year well before the season starts.

DADoZAG
04-02-2010, 11:23 AM
You would take away from Gray's strength (shooting, slashing, moving off the ball) to put him in a position to highlight his greatest weakness (dribbling).

As memory serves, early season reports were that Gray didn't focus on shooting last off season, but focused on ball handling and defense. Gray has made a conscious effort to improve his weaknesses, which is commendable. Many of us will say he was successful to some extent, but it did seem to affect his strength however, shooting.

With that off season focus on ball handling, Steven was second highest of the starters for turnovers per 40 minutes and I'll agree with cjm720 that a good percentage of those turnovers were due to sloppy or ineffective ball handling. (I have no stats to support that opinion, and as a side note, Goodson had the lowest turnovers per 40 minutes of the starters and Gibbs was second worst on the team, PMAG not included.)

Now, either Gray needs to consider working on his handles in a different way this off season, a way that produces better results, or maybe his talents are better focused as a 2 guard. Although a lineup with Gray at point is very, very attractive, I just don’t know if it’s realistic.

I’ll also agree that the GJ / Kentucky argument has been overused. I’m not saying GJ can’t be a top level point, we just haven’t seen enough of him. Staff has, and I’ll defer to that. I could have also sworn that somewhere I saw a press report that GJ had a nagging injury through most of this season, but my searches can’t find any support.

Go ZAGS!

jimmycarter
04-02-2010, 11:25 AM
My wife has heard me barking this same idea at theTV for the past two years. Ever since Stephen was a Freshman and he spelled Pargo at the point a few times (usually due to foul trouble for JP), I thought he looked GREAT. A few points to the cause:
One: Gray is a solid enough defender to play opposing PG's. No worries.
Two: At 6'5", he's be a nightmare matchup for some teams that have sub-6' guards. Shoot over the top? Maybe learn some of Bouldin's post moves? You bet.
Three: He's already our best "end of the shot clock" guy. Put the ball in his hands! I felt that this year he showed an increased toughness going to the rim and a real creativity inside of 15'. Pull-ups, tough lay-ins, etc.
Four: The GU offense doesn't demand a true point. We're not all about the Vance Walberg "penetrate-and-kick" stuff that Kentucky and those guys run. We don't NEED a John Wall (wouldn't mind having him...). Motion Offenses just need players who can safely bring the ball up and initiate the offense. After that initiation, the 1, 2 and 3 positions are interchangable.
Five and Final: Imagine the line-up possibilities! Elias at 3 with no player under 6'5"? The ability to run BOTH Arop and Kong on the wings? Go "small" with Meech/GJ off the bench and turn the game into a track meet when it's time to bring in the second unit? Makes me smile just thinking about it...

WeSayZed
04-02-2010, 11:27 AM
So move Gray to a position that is our weakest (and more best guard out of his comfort zone), move a starter to 3rd on the depth chart, and give GJ more minutes. The latter I get, the rest?????????....glad you're not coach.
Yes, I'd move a strong player into a position where we're weakest. (Who says it's out of his comfort zone? He played it and played it well at times last year.) And then I'd move a promising young player into the 2 spot, and give GJ more minutes so he'll be ready to start when Gray graduates next year. The players who have earned more playing time get it, and the team gets stronger overall.

WeSayZed
04-02-2010, 11:33 AM
My wife has heard me barking this same idea at theTV for the past two years. Ever since Stephen was a Freshman and he spelled Pargo at the point a few times (usually due to foul trouble for JP), I thought he looked GREAT. A few points to the cause:
One: Gray is a solid enough defender to play opposing PG's. No worries.
Two: At 6'5", he's be a nightmare matchup for some teams that have sub-6' guards. Shoot over the top? Maybe learn some of Bouldin's post moves? You bet.
Three: He's already our best "end of the shot clock" guy. Put the ball in his hands! I felt that this year he showed an increased toughness going to the rim and a real creativity inside of 15'. Pull-ups, tough lay-ins, etc.
Four: The GU offense doesn't demand a true point. We're not all about the Vance Walberg "penetrate-and-kick" stuff that Kentucky and those guys run. We don't NEED a John Wall (wouldn't mind having him...). Motion Offenses just need players who can safely bring the ball up and initiate the offense. After that initiation, the 1, 2 and 3 positions are interchangable.
Five and Final: Imagine the line-up possibilities! Elias at 3 with no player under 6'5"? The ability to run BOTH Arop and Kong on the wings? Go "small" with Meech/GJ off the bench and turn the game into a track meet when it's time to bring in the second unit? Makes me smile just thinking about it...
I concur. It's exciting to think about.

FuManShoes
04-02-2010, 11:40 AM
I think Gray's handle would need to improve quite a bit for him to assume the PG role. He's a great passer and has great court vision but I get nervous when he faces pressure. And it presents a similar conundrum we had with Matt: do you want your best playmaker handling the ball or making plays off the ball?

northsidezagfan
04-02-2010, 11:40 AM
ive thought about this before too and i really think gray has the handle to be capable of bringing the ball up the floor. that being said, i also think coupling this with the scoring and defensive responsibilities he is already going to be saddled with would be too much for one player. i would much rather see steven focus on being the dead-eye shooter we desperately need and have meech/gj/gg bring the ball up the floor.

jake
04-02-2010, 12:01 PM
In the open floor Gray is a head down dribbler that tends to get a little off balance. He's a good slasher from the 3-point line in, but as far as being the main ball handler, I don't think that's where his talents lie. He is a great two guard.

cjm720
04-02-2010, 12:29 PM
The players who have earned more playing time get it, and the team gets stronger overall.

You just argued yourself out of this post.

So the player who earned a starting spot all year, Meech, is third string in your book. :D

MickMick
04-02-2010, 12:36 PM
Gray isn't that bad of a ball handler and he isn't that bad of a passer either. But he does throw a couple of lazy passes every game that have you scratching your head. I have cussed at his unforced turnovers a time or two. But it typically wasn't due to his handles and had everything to do with an occasional mental lapse when distributing the ball.

Gray is a natural two. You don't compromise two positions to make one of them slightly better.

cjm720
04-02-2010, 12:40 PM
GJ didn't go to Kentucky because Wall took his spot-- If Wall did not go to Kentucky, I would expect that we would not have GJ.

Coach Cal had the talk with GJ before signing Wall.

bigblahla
04-02-2010, 12:52 PM
He's a great passer

I'm a Zag fan through and through but I also watch as a hoops purist, one old enough to remember the art of basketball played with a rule book and not the subjective eye and mindset of out of shape old men with whistles.

Steven does have excellent court vision but to call him a great passer or consider him as a point guard, that's a stretch. It's not just Steven it's the whole team save MB and GG, to me our major issue on offense was and is the inability to pass the ball.

I agree with those that think this would take away from Steven's strengths.

We just need a little "Dower Power". :D

Go!! Zags!!!

allbusiness_zag
04-02-2010, 02:04 PM
He has had a shot every day in practice to prove that he deserves playing time. He will continue to try and show it this summer and next year.

I would rather see GG get playing time at pg rather than SG. GG has the tools to be a good pg with great vision and he's displayed in his limited time an ability to distribute the ball.As already mentioned, Steven's greatest assets are his shooting and slashing. He has also been one of our best defenders. We can't overload him with too much or he'll be dead by mid-season.

Thank you. I could not agree more with what you have said.

JohnOGU
04-02-2010, 02:25 PM
gray has great vision, but there have been many times where he's become a lazy passer, and that leads to TO's. I saw him more than anyone else make weak or bad passes that were picked off.

WallaWallaZag
04-02-2010, 03:14 PM
Coach Cal had the talk with GJ before signing Wall.

even if wall wasn't around to "take" gj's spot, bledsoe would have anyways...

DADoZAG
04-02-2010, 03:27 PM
Okay, so who starts the "Manny @ Point" thread?

Go ZAGS!

cbbfanatic
04-02-2010, 03:35 PM
He is a prototypical Calipari PG.

please explain this, as i dont see much overlap between stephen gray and dajuan wagner, darius washington, tyreke evans, derrick rose, and john wall (go a step further and look at the pgs he's recruiting HARD for next year - selby and knight, at the very least)... in fact, theyre really not even close to being the same type (or caliber) of player. calipari guys can get into the lane at will and finish (above the rim, often) or find teammates. they usually arent great outside or even ft shooters. they are freaks athletically that were built for the nba. im not sure gray is any of those things - i'd be much closer to calling him the antithesis of a calipari PG than a prototype...

**apologize if someone else asked for this rationale too, didnt read the entire thread, couldnt get past that statement without having the itchy trigger finger on the reply button

alldaye
04-02-2010, 03:42 PM
I would love to see GG at the 1, but he cannot guard opposing PG's. Maybe we could start GG and have SG guard the point.

Anyways, I think looking forward GJ should be receiving more PT. He has the potential and has looked good in spurts.

Also, I really like the idea of changing lineups based on matchups next year

WallaWallaZag
04-02-2010, 03:42 PM
for all the proponents of the steven gray for pg idea...if you haven't played ball at the highest levels, you cannot understand how mentally and physically demanding it is to bring the ball up the court for ~30 minutes a game against pressure, especially for anyone who is not a true point. we have already seen steven struggle offensively when he has had to guard a top scorer...there's no way he plays the point more than 5 minutes a game. he may take over some of bouldin's role as a de facto point, where someone like meech brings the ball up and hands the ball to steven to initiate the offense, but he's still playing the 2 spot in this situation.

maynard g krebs
04-02-2010, 05:31 PM
for all the proponents of the steven gray for pg idea...if you haven't played ball at the highest levels, you cannot understand how mentally and physically demanding it is to bring the ball up the court for ~30 minutes a game against pressure, especially for anyone who is not a true point. we have already seen steven struggle offensively when he has had to guard a top scorer...there's no way he plays the point more than 5 minutes a game. he may take over some of bouldin's role as a de facto point, where someone like meech brings the ball up and hands the ball to steven to initiate the offense, but he's still playing the 2 spot in this situation.

Agree that having Gray bringing it up against say, Venoy Overton all game is a bad idea. But, there are different ways to handle pressure. I remember Morrison bringing the ball up against pressure very effectively. Maarty Leunen used to do it for Oregon. That worked because those guys had bigger and slower defenders on them.

Those advocating Gray at pg are, I think, doing so out of perceived necessity/ lack of a better option, and as a situational/ part time scenario, depending on matchups and playing styles of the opponent. This year that happened whenever Manny/Bol came for Meech, so this kind of lineup is nothing new.

And Blake Stepp wasn't the quickest guy or a great ballhandler, but he made up for it with his ability to find the open man. GU did ok with a backcourt of Stepp and Bankhead, which is sort of what a lot of people are now saying wouldn't work imo.

bigblahla
04-02-2010, 11:12 PM
Blake Stepp wasn't the quickest guy or a great ballhandler, but he made up for it with his ability to find the open man. GU did ok with a backcourt of Stepp and Bankhead, which is sort of what a lot of people are now saying wouldn't work imo.

Yep, two guys who valued each possession and could pass the ball.

Go!! Zags!!!

BlueVoodoo07
04-03-2010, 02:17 AM
Leave Gray where he is if you don't like gj or meech try gibbs.

willandi
04-03-2010, 06:30 AM
Sacre looked good the 2 times he brought the ball up!! Took it to the hoop for a flush. Maybe we should try him!?!

nonzagzag
04-03-2010, 06:36 AM
Sacre looked good the 2 times he brought the ball up!! Took it to the hoop for a flush. Maybe we should try him!?!

or he can stop and pop a 3!

BlueVoodoo07
04-03-2010, 03:18 PM
We would have won it all this year if we just would have had Foster run the point for us. Talk about always having a mismatch for the other teams PG. Oh well I guess Few knew that would have made the season to easy and he wanted more of a challenge that's why he let Meech play.

Zag79
04-03-2010, 09:43 PM
You would take away from Gray's strength (shooting, slashing, moving off the ball) to put him in a position to highlight his greatest weakness (dribbling).

bingo! just like matty this year. i can tell you one reason i cant wait for next season to start... these repetitive PG posts. meech will start, and unless he doesnt get better he will sit for GJ. done, period, on to the next subject. :)

WeSayZed
04-04-2010, 10:05 AM
You just argued yourself out of this post.

So the player who earned a starting spot all year, Meech, is third string in your book. :D
I'm not following what you're saying. Goodson is the guy who I think has played his way out of a starting job.

BobZag
04-04-2010, 11:18 AM
I am BobZag and I know many things, for I walk by night. I know many strange tales, many secrets hidden in the hearts of men and women who have stepped into the shadows. Yes, I know the nameless terrors of which they dare not speak and Gray will not be point guard.

WeSayZed
04-04-2010, 11:48 AM
I am BobZag and I know many things, for I walk by night. I know many strange tales, many secrets hidden in the hearts of men and women who have stepped into the shadows. Yes, I know the nameless terrors of which they dare not speak and Gray will not be point guard.
Iíve been around long enough to know that you know things, but hereís what Iíd like to know. Whoís the girl in your avatar? :)

Zag79
04-04-2010, 10:36 PM
Iíve been around long enough to know that you know things, but hereís what Iíd like to know. Whoís the girl in your avatar?

i sure you dont know hoops like you know your beautiful women. actually it would make posts like this make more sense. :D


If this was pro basketball Goodson probably would have been benched 10 games into the year, but Few stuck with him and gave him every chance to get things turned around.

not if meech was doing what coach wants. sure we ALL want meech to be better at the line and from deep, im sure that will come around. you saw he can make them, with pressure. see florida st. and again, read my post comparing meech with butlers starting point guard. coach may like what meech does for most part regardless of what the arm chair coaches say here.