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thecansmostwanted
03-30-2010, 02:43 PM
This conversation will probably go on until next November. I am just having a difficult time reading all the negative response to our current point guard.
Sure, I understand some of the talk. The poor FT %, not being able to control his speed etc.

I would like to contribute some of my thoughts, show Meech some love, and get all the Meech haters to reconsider.

First of all, if anyone remembers Pargo was not a strong outside shooter until his senior year. And until Pargo was a Junior, he too was out of control frequently. I don't understand how you can expect a guy (pg) who runs the offense, who really does not get many plays called for him, to be a good shooter. He might take one or two outside shots a game. It is hard to get it going when you are not asked to shoot.

Secondly, this team won 27 games with Meech as the starter. 27!

Third, Hey look, yes I think G.J. will be excellent someday. But, I think Meech will continue to get better. Maybe he can attend a camp this year and work with some NBA guys and get some pointers.

And Lastly I ask, Who on the team except maybe Sacre, Who was tougher than Meech? How many Charges did Meech take this season. I think Meech will be difficult to remove from the starting lineup. And I think he will continue to make us proud and happy we recruited him. So seriously, ask yourself did the Zags suffer because of Meech, did he limit the teams potential? Perhaps at times, but overall this was another outstanding year, and if he is the starter next year, the Zags will win 27 or more games, and go deep into the tournament. Just like with Pargo, and D Rye, it will take time, but Meech is solid, and we should be thankful to have someone like him.

RockandRollJames
03-30-2010, 03:02 PM
Sometimes I wonder who people are watching. I just don't see how anyone can be satisfied with our PG play. I understand there is always bias with your team, but this is getting rediculous.

I do not like the Meech to Pargo comparison. Meech has no where close to the upside Pargo had. Pargo was the WCC POY as a Junior. I would be suprised to see Meech even as an honorable mention.

Yes we won 27 games with Meech starting, but don't give him credit for it. We won those games despite Meech being our PG. (OK, that last sentence was a little too harsh)

I am a GJ fan, but I do not feel comfortable with either guy as our starter next year. That is why I am so for getting a JUCO guy start for 2 years and have GJ start as a senior. I would be very for that. I know this post makes it seem like I absolutely hate Meech as a player. I really don't. I do not think he is starter material. I think he would be a great guy to bring off the bench, but nothing more.

And yes, Meech did draw a lot of charges. But, he had sooooo many similar plays that he was called for blocking fouls.

In the end, Meech is a PG who isn't a good shooter, not a good passer, picks up his dribble way too often and early, doesn't make good decisions, shoots FT's like Shaq, and does not get many steals. He would be a great energy guy coming off the bench for us. He is a good on-the-ball defender and has shown to be a decent driver/finisher. If he were to understand his role, I think it would go a long ways.

Please don't compare him to Pargo or Raivio again...

bartruff1
03-30-2010, 03:16 PM
I am sure the coaches have told you about avoiding fan forums...but if you look in here, keep in mind that your critics likely have never played a single minute or coached a single game of D1 basketball and they don't know WTF they are running their mouths about....most of us think you are doing your best and and doing what the coaches are asking you to do to blend your skills with the other players... and we appreciate that you came to Gonzaga and hope you enjoy your experience here. I love to watch you play and IMHO you have played a very important role in the teams success including clutch play in the NCAA Tourney.

FieldHouseFishHouse
03-30-2010, 03:30 PM
If basketball was played like football, Meech would surely be a defensive starter. Against teams that can't run the floor, he can be a real pest on offense as well.
Aside from that, I guess I'm in the "Meech hater" camp, not that I hate the kid at all, I just think he is a 18 foot jumper away from being an average to good point guard. As it stands he is well below average for a program like GU.
This has been picked to death but here is my evaluation of his weaknesses.

Cannot finish at the rim - Unlike Pargo, Meech often gets his shot blocked when going to the hoop. He often ends up at the line after beating his man, but rarely gets the "and 1" and doesn't make free throws at a high rate.

Cant shoot - period, which means he can only be an offensive threat during a fastbreak situation, when the ball is quickly reversed to his side or when the fat guy gets switched onto him on a screen.

Cant pass - OK, that kind of harsh, he is an average passer. He is OK at breaking the press, but below average at feeding the post (doesn't help when your defender is sagging 10 feet into the key), kicking out on his drives and passing on a full speed fastbreak. These are musts for a point guard.

Lastly, I would like to address shooting percentage. I have read several posts regarding Meech's "relatively" good 2 pt field goal %. I have to disagree with these arguments. Meech has wisely decided to take fewer shots since he and opposing teams figured out that he can't shoot. He does sneak in for a high percentage shot at the rim once in a while, but more often than not he gets fouled and misses his free throws (essentially as good as a missed shot). I hate to penalize him twice, but the fact that he can't shoot jumpers or free throws encourages teams to sag off and then foul him if he gets free either in the open court or on a drive.
He is a nice kid, a hard worker and an above average defender. He did a great job on Mendez Valdez last year for instance. Don't try to refute the negatives by citing his defensive prowess, because its a losing argument. He needs, NEEDS to develop a mid-range game or it will be 4 on 5 on offense whenever he is on the court.

Mr Vulture
03-30-2010, 03:34 PM
I think the accurate assessment of Meech is somewhere in the middle. There is little doubt that Meech is a very good on ball defender and spark plug for the team. He has quickness and explosion that is, unfortunately, negated by the complete lack of an outside shot. I agree, there is definately a major role on the team for Meech. However, I also agree that a PG must be able to be some threat offensively or you are playing 4 on 5 at that end.

As much as I thought Meech improved his court discipline as the season progressed it is imperative that he learns to at least be respectable from the outside. Not only will it make it harder for teams to collapse on Rob and Elias but it will open up Meech's dribble/drive game. His stroke from the line isn't bad although confidence would greatly increase that. Don't forget, he hit 5 out of 6 at the end of the Florida State game.

I don't have a problem going into the season with Meech as the starter and I fully expect his game to continue to improve. However, I see know reason why a combo guard along the lines of Marquis Carter could do anything but help.

GrizZAG
03-30-2010, 03:41 PM
Few in his last show indicated he is well aware we need to shore up the PG position. I have a lot of faith in him that whatever we end up with next fall it will be a good solution. Our leader knows his stuff....

Meech isn't the only PG that had to learn to shoot, pass and became excellent. He may...
WORK, WORK, WORK>>> = WIN

thecansmostwanted
03-30-2010, 04:12 PM
Man I love this forum, everyone is so smart and the replies make alot of sense. Rocknrolljames you make some good points, I have no problem if you disagree or have a different opinion of Meech than I do. I am willing to give your post some thought. We are all big fans and we just want to win. Hopefully Meech will work his tail off and get better. I agree he needs to improve. I wasnt attempting to compare him as a player to d-rye or j.pargo, Frankly I think D.Rye and J. Pargo were better players as sophomores. My point is they both took time to improve, and I think Meech needs the same consideration. Pargo was way better his Junior season than he was as a sophomore. Hopefully Meech will be as well.

thespywhozaggedme
03-30-2010, 04:30 PM
This conversation will probably go on until next November. I am just having a difficult time reading all the negative response to our current point guard.
Sure, I understand some of the talk. The poor FT %, not being able to control his speed etc.

I would like to contribute some of my thoughts, show Meech some love, and get all the Meech haters to reconsider.

First of all, if anyone remembers Pargo was not a strong outside shooter until his senior year. And until Pargo was a Junior, he too was out of control frequently. I don't understand how you can expect a guy (pg) who runs the offense, who really does not get many plays called for him, to be a good shooter. He might take one or two outside shots a game. It is hard to get it going when you are not asked to shoot.

Secondly, this team won 27 games with Meech as the starter. 27!

Third, Hey look, yes I think G.J. will be excellent someday. But, I think Meech will continue to get better. Maybe he can attend a camp this year and work with some NBA guys and get some pointers.

And Lastly I ask, Who on the team except maybe Sacre, Who was tougher than Meech? How many Charges did Meech take this season. I think Meech will be difficult to remove from the starting lineup. And I think he will continue to make us proud and happy we recruited him. So seriously, ask yourself did the Zags suffer because of Meech, did he limit the teams potential? Perhaps at times, but overall this was another outstanding year, and if he is the starter next year, the Zags will win 27 or more games, and go deep into the tournament. Just like with Pargo, and D Rye, it will take time, but Meech is solid, and we should be thankful to have someone like him.

With all due respect, I'm really sick and tired of this term, it's become fashionable in the lame stream media and now sports; it is not hate to simply have an opinion that differs from your own. I highly doubt anyone here hates Meech, it's just that many, if not most here do not believe that he is good enough to be a starting pg on a high major D1A team. That is not hate. :mad:

zag67
03-30-2010, 04:32 PM
I have to throw my 2 cents into the ring. We do not get many 5 star players and therefore get players that have weaknesses. That is a fact. I think that when you look back most of our point guards had many weaknesses when they started. But in most cases they were all at the defensive end. Some could drive and take the ball to the hoop, but forgot about the pass and were also weak at the 3 point and midpoint range. Their defensive weaknesses were in many cases hidden by using the zone or we had some great people in the center. The offensive end is very hard to hide.

In Meech's case, it is the opposite. He can defend, hustles, and has speed. He is not good at the offensive end of the court. Will he get there this summer? The whole GU nation would love to see it. If he does not, then will GJ learn how to play defense and pass the ball? Again we all hope so. But if not, then there needs to be other options. Those are the options that the coaches are trying to fill. He may be Steven or a JUCO. Or it may be a major comibnation of all of above. But remember, whoever they bring in is going to take time to learn the players and plays. I do not believe that we can (or should) expect miracles. This year we are going to be stronger and more experienced at all of the other positions. It is going to be up to them to help enhance (and hide the defeciencies) whoever is the point guard on the floor.

Reborn
03-30-2010, 04:46 PM
The criticism about Meech has nothing to do with hating him. A preetty lame thread, imo. The criticism is all about basketball talent, and the skills a great point guard needs. I think many fans are fairly open about whether or not Meech can carve out those skills during the summer. I think many of us hope he does. But if he doesn't, then a change is needed. This is a highly competive sport at Gonzaga were talking about. Highly. Were talking about a team that wants to make it to the Final 4 and win a national championship. That's what this is all about.

zags422
03-30-2010, 04:47 PM
this season makes me wish we still had PMAC

bigblahla
03-30-2010, 05:07 PM
this season makes me wish we still had PMAC

We do. ;)

Go!! Zags!!!

gamagin
03-30-2010, 05:07 PM
and Meech would, too, that Few et all are always looking for the best player for every position every season they are a Zag.

It's the only guarantee any player gets: you stay & start as long as you earn and can keep your job.

If you think about it, and if you are a player I am sure you do, every year the coaches are scouring the nation looking for replacements for every position.

If the coaches are successful, like signing EH, they find someone better than the current or designated starter.

If they don't find the best possible 1-2-3-4-5 man immediately, and he doesn't come off the bench to exceed all others, last year's starter keeps his job. The rest continue developing and challenging for p.t.

Going into next year's season, there is only one starter not returning: MB, even though all five jobs are technically up for grabs.

So zeroing in on one starter, like replacing Meech, as the answer to the first or biggest or most important step in improving next year's team, is just too easy. It's also short-sighted, silly (sili? BeeZee ? Jazzy ?) and patently absurd. imo.

Who takes POY MB's job, maybe even does it better and improves the team in some way MB didn't, is where the real gaping hole exists & where I would be looking if I were king (read Few).

All the rest of the team members are works in process. Some (starters) are better than others and all of them behind the first five are chomping at the bit to get or take more p.t. from the fellow in front of them.

Who gets better, who maybe doesn't and who perhaps peaks (and thus fades), remains to be seen. Its the circle of basketball life year after year.

Everyone has from the last game until the first day of practice to make themselves better. each has assessments, goals and dreams to try and bring to fruition. All of that is in front of them. They are already part of the Zags teams. They are the chosen ones. It's up to each athlete to become the best at his position within those parameters. Or else sit and watch.

They are also looking over their shoulders to see who Few et al sign on that might catch them from behind.

So given all this and much, much more that is involved in this process, I just can't quite wrap my mind around the simple and simplistic notion that all of this will take care of itself if we just bench one guy.

And the irony to me is this is one guy who seems to play his best at tourney time. Consistently.

What am I missing ? Or what are all of you missing here ?

MickMick
03-30-2010, 05:44 PM
There are a ton of great athletes that are average in offensive basketball skills. Div 1 basketball is loaded with them.

Gonzaga has always been a little different with their consistent outside scoring ability from the point (pre Pargo). We simply are not accustomed to this new role for the position.

Typically, winning solves everything, but our expectations have risen even beyond that.

Goodson will always be a key player for GU in some capacity.

Mark Few has acknowledged that perimeter shooting help is needed and he is wasting little time in finding that help.


My belief?

Somehow, Few gets this resolved in a manner that is in the best interest of the team, individual players, and fans. And he does it by opening day.

bigblahla
03-30-2010, 06:20 PM
So zeroing in on one starter, like replacing Meech, as the answer to the first or biggest or most important step in improving next year's team, is just too easy. It's also short-sighted, silly (sili? BeeZee ? Jazzy ?) and patently absurd. imo.


Hmmm? So when a spark plugs misfiring you don't replace it you just let your engine keep running, rough and inefficient?

Sorry, but not less than 100 times this season I yelled at Meech to pass the ball to the post he didn't hear me then and he won't hear me next season, it's something missing in his arsenal, he doesn't see it. No matter how much we may all want him to, he won't learn it over the summer.

Just my opinion

Go!! Zags!!!

mainer6
03-30-2010, 06:43 PM
I have to throw my 2 cents into the ring. We do not get many 5 star players and therefore get players that have weaknesses. That is a fact. I think that when you look back most of our point guards had many weaknesses when they started. But in most cases they were all at the defensive end. Some could drive and take the ball to the hoop, but forgot about the pass and were also weak at the 3 point and midpoint range. Their defensive weaknesses were in many cases hidden by using the zone or we had some great people in the center. The offensive end is very hard to hide.

In Meech's case, it is the opposite. He can defend, hustles, and has speed. He is not good at the offensive end of the court. Will he get there this summer? The whole GU nation would love to see it. If he does not, then will GJ learn how to play defense and pass the ball? Again we all hope so. But if not, then there needs to be other options. Those are the options that the coaches are trying to fill. He may be Steven or a JUCO. Or it may be a major comibnation of all of above. But remember, whoever they bring in is going to take time to learn the players and plays. I do not believe that we can (or should) expect miracles. This year we are going to be stronger and more experienced at all of the other positions. It is going to be up to them to help enhance (and hide the defeciencies) whoever is the point guard on the floor.

This is a great point. I think, with all the offensive talent around him, I would much rather have Meech and his lack of O than Ravio and his lack of athletecism.
Pargo was a stud. Let's not hold that against Meech.

gamagin
03-30-2010, 06:55 PM
Hmmm? So when a spark plugs misfiring you don't replace it you just let your engine keep running, rough and inefficient?

Sorry, but not less than 100 times this season I yelled at Meech to pass the ball to the post he didn't hear me then and he won't hear me next season, it's something missing in his arsenal, he doesn't see it. No matter how much we may all want him to, he won't learn it over the summer.

Just my opinion

Go!! Zags!!!

is to look at the intended target. to do that is to start to tear apart the rest of the crew, its inconsistencies and when your done, everyone seems as effed up at one time or another as Meech was in his poor games, too many times.

RS is a good example. Lets just say the middle was a bigger problem than meech's inability to pass in there. Way too much. you can march through every player and, if you like, find tremendous fault, inconsistencies, alot of the time. The general terms for this were inconsistencies.

as I said, it's not as simple as it has been argued, imo. Meech got seated many times and, imo, it turned out it wasn't him failing to pay attention, is what i'm saying. I'm unwilling to break the rest down and I'm unwilling to stand quietly while he is handed the brunt of the inconsistencies.

I'd say he was an equal partner in the breakdowns and had his share. The players I expected not to break down, to lead, to be leaders and so forth, caused greater problems for us, I believe, and left me to wonder w.t.f. really happened vs. what this kid with his first year of steady play under his belt did or didn't do to fix things. He was about 3rd or 4th in the blame category, imo, not first, most of the time.



But I'd rather not build any player up by tearing another down.

This past year's follies, such as they were, were a team effort. and there was a team problem that developed over the season that, imo, had little to do with Meech and much to do with a number of inexplicable breakdowns.

ZagAddict
03-30-2010, 07:21 PM
Few in his last show indicated he is well aware we need to shore up the PG position. I have a lot of faith in him that whatever we end up with next fall it will be a good solution. Our leader knows his stuff....

+1

I have all the confidence the world that Few will hit a home run with filling holes on this team in the off season... just like he did with hiring an assistant to replace coach Rice. Keep on amazing us coach Few :D

bigblahla
03-30-2010, 07:27 PM
is to look at the intended target. to do that is to start to tear apart the rest of the crew, its inconsistencies and when your done, everyone seems as effed up at one time or another as Meech was in his poor games, too many times.

RS is a good example. Lets just say the middle was a bigger problem than meech's inability to pass in there. Way too much. you can march through every player and, if you like, find tremendous fault, inconsistencies, alot of the time. The general terms for this were inconsistencies.

as I said, it's not as simple as it has been argued, imo. Meech got seated many times and, imo, it turned out it wasn't him failing to pay attention, is what i'm saying. I'm unwilling to break the rest down and I'm unwilling to stand quietly while he is handed the brunt of the inconsistencies.

I'd say he was an equal partner in the breakdowns and had his share. The players I expected not to break down, to lead, to be leaders and so forth, caused greater problems for us, I believe, and left me to wonder w.t.f. really happened vs. what this kid with his first year of steady play under his belt did or didn't do to fix things. He was about 3rd or 4th in the blame category, imo, not first, most of the time.



But I'd rather not build any player up by tearing another down.

This past year's follies, such as they were, were a team effort. and there was a team problem that developed over the season that, imo, had little to do with Meech and much to do with a number of inexplicable breakdowns.

Gam,

This isn't about tearing Meech down it's about the game.

Please read and understand I saw the pass he missed at least 100 times this year. He didn't see them, these are undelivered scoring opportunities that were missed because he didn't make the pass.

This is not about last season wins or losses it's about next season and unless someone steps into Matt's shoes then as BZ says "We're Doomed" because I'll still be yelling at Meech to make the passes he doesn't see.

Go!! Zags!!!

ZagsObserver
03-30-2010, 07:29 PM
Sorry, I love Meech as a person, and he'd probably be a great energy guy off the bench, or in a defensive situation when he's defending a short guard (Tall guards shoot right over him, and quick guards sometimes get around him because he often overplays his man on defense).

That having been said, Meech is NOT the answer. He kills the offensive flow, because he has zero court vision, he can't shoot the three at all (probably the worst I've ever seen on any team), which screws up the inside game, and also prevents us from capitalizing on it when they swing it out to the open man (often times Meech). He is not a high major guard. Sorry. He will not cut it. He would be a fan favorite off the bench, but he is in way over his head.

ZagsObserver
03-30-2010, 07:34 PM
...and moreover, to the person that stated he would rather have Meech over Raivio based on our current team, you've got to be kidding! Did you watch Derek play? Granted the latter portion of his senior year he had some issues finding his shot, and that was due in large part to Morrison simply taking over on offense, doing the man-to-man thing. But Raivio simply did things that Meech could never do...and it aided the team in big ways. I feel like the team operates better when Meech is on the bench many times. I would never say those sorts of things when Derek was in the game. And, moreover, almost no one was stating that (which cannot be said of Meech throughout the season).

bartruff1
03-30-2010, 08:03 PM
Gam, I agree...Meech was not the problem in the losses this year..I just don't see any purpose in criticizing any of the players...there is nothing to be gained by it. The coaches know what is going on and to be sure they don't look in here for any insight or solutions...he is being made a scapegoat for the team not meeting some peoples expectations.. Unless Few is arguing with himself.. I don't know who is debating...

tinfoilzag
03-30-2010, 08:37 PM
The good news is that Meech, GJ, and GG all are competing for the starting gig so no one is likely to leave.

Meech is coachable and likes playing in big games; he needs to improve his offense or he will not start.

GJ's athleticism and talent means he can play with anyone; he needs to improve his decision making or he will not start.

GG is 5" taller than either and has the best court vision; if he doesn't get stronger and defend better he will not start.

If these 3 don't shoot better from range and the line, a JC guy (or unknown frosh or even Stockon) could take their spot.

I hope the competition makes these 3 push themselves to a new level and earn the starting spot. I can't wait to see the result.:)

FlagZag
03-30-2010, 09:09 PM
Of all the post season posts about 90% have dealt with the pt guard issue. Can anyone who supports the status quo point to a single stat that supports Meech at pt? Free throws? Steals? Assists? 3 or 2 pt shooting? Rebounds? The "kickout" is a vital component to offense. How many times in this season has anybody seen Harris or Sacre kickout to Meech? They are way too preoccupied with the double team down low. An automatic, and unnecessary double team because Meech isn't a shooting threat. Not a hater just a Zag fan.

thecansmostwanted
03-30-2010, 09:42 PM
as some of you pointed out, meech haters was clearly a poor choice of words. my bad, my first post.

the title should have read 'point guard competition 2010-11'.

7 months until meech and gj start battling in practice.

Some intelligent and eye opening replies.
You Zag Fans really know the team.
Thanks

gamagin
03-30-2010, 10:14 PM
The good news is that Meech, GJ, and GG all are competing for the starting gig so no one is likely to leave.

Meech is coachable and likes playing in big games; he needs to improve his offense or he will not start.

GJ's athleticism and talent means he can play with anyone; he needs to improve his decision making or he will not start.

GG is 5" taller than either and has the best court vision; if he doesn't get stronger and defend better he will not start.

If these 3 don't shoot better from range and the line, a JC guy (or unknown frosh or even Stockon) could take their spot.

I hope the competition makes these 3 push themselves to a new level and earn the starting spot. I can't wait to see the result.:)

Exactomundo !