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JAGzag
03-27-2010, 02:41 PM
First, congrats to Butler. As I watched the end of the game, I couldn't help but become a little upset. Why Butler? So, I thought I'd ask: how is it that Butler makes the Final Four before us? Players, coach, schedule?

gonwick
03-27-2010, 02:44 PM
Defense.

surfmonkey89
03-27-2010, 02:46 PM
Reasons why Butler won include:

- Everyone can shoot.

- Tenacious D. How many times did you see them run at a wide open guy shooting a three trying to get a hand in their face? Almost never, because the shooters weren't open in the first place.

- Throw themselves after every loose ball.

- Team concept, as opposed to having one or two potential NBAers, and tailoring everything to them.

- Aggressive mentality. They showed no fear, play to win instead of playing not to lose, and no one played as if they were going to get benched the first time they made a mistake.

Read into that what you will.

MDABE80
03-27-2010, 02:50 PM
Reasons why Butler won include:

- Everyone can shoot.

- Tenacious D. How many times did you see them run at a wide open guy shooting a three trying to get a hand in their face? Almost never, because the shooters weren't open in the first place.

- Throw themselves after every loose ball.

- Team concept, as opposed to having one or two potential NBAers, and tailoring everything to them.

- Aggressive mentality. They showed no fear, play to win instead of playing not to lose, and no one played as if they were going to get benched the first time they made a mistake.

Read into that what you will.


True...and 4 of the 5 Butler starters will be back... We need to find the floorburn types who can shoot....belly to belly defenders who go after the ball wherever it goes....get it back and then put points up. "The ball is your friend"..:)

roxdoc
03-27-2010, 02:50 PM
+1 (for both Surf and Abe)

Saxon_zag
03-27-2010, 02:55 PM
They know/care how to play tenacious defense

they have a prime time player like gordon hayward to go with some other awesome guards like mack. We have Matt bouldin who was never really the same after a concussion and let's face it never did that well against elite teams in the first place. Steven Gray who is about as streaky as can be. Plus we have a track star running the point. Our bigs of harris and sacre are better than butlers but it's all about the guard play

ZagLawGrad
03-27-2010, 02:59 PM
Butler has a major and raging fire burning in them. They wanted it every minute of every game more than the other guys. Zags weren't in that category at the end of the season.

JAGzag
03-27-2010, 03:00 PM
Reasons why Butler won include:

- Everyone can shoot.

- Tenacious D. How many times did you see them run at a wide open guy shooting a three trying to get a hand in their face? Almost never, because the shooters weren't open in the first place.

- Throw themselves after every loose ball.

- Team concept, as opposed to having one or two potential NBAers, and tailoring everything to them.

- Aggressive mentality. They showed no fear, play to win instead of playing not to lose, and no one played as if they were going to get benched the first time they made a mistake.

Read into that what you will.

Coaching.

kclubfounder
03-27-2010, 03:04 PM
It worked out for them this year. They have been knocking on the door with great teams, just like us. It all came together. I love it.

It is proof that it can all come together for us.

GO BUTLER! WIN IT ALL!!!!

I am SO tired of the Len Elmores of the world who think that there is NO chance that a Butler can win it all. Oh, they can upset a team or two. They can make it to the Sweet Sixteen. But they CAN'T win it all. That is reserved for the elite schools.

BULL.

Len Elmore was blatantly cheering for K State so bad that I had to turn the volume down despite the fact that I love Gus. I'm going to go back and watch the last 5 minutes with sound now that I know the Butler did it.

Zag fans, don't be jealous. That is pathetic. This helps. Recruits will have further proof that they don't have to go to a power conference to make it to the Final Four.

BobZag
03-27-2010, 03:04 PM
This question may answer your question--

Would Butler recruit Meech, GJ, Gibbs, Foster, to name four?

Yes or no?

No disrespect intended. Just askin'?

kclubfounder
03-27-2010, 03:10 PM
Many of the reasons listed above are Sh!tty. Coaching and they wanted it to name a couple.

This was a F'ing rebuilding year. There are 4 guys playing pro ball that were on GU last year. We made it to the 2nd round. Talk to North Carolina, Arizona, UCLA, Indiana, etc...

We have had several teams that came OH SO CLOSE to doing what Butler did today. The fact that it worked out for Butler this year is great. The fact that it didn't work out for us in the past is a bummer, but it doesn't mean it won't in the future.

It is so hard to argue with idiots. I don't know why I waste the energy.

Goshzagit
03-27-2010, 03:10 PM
This question may answer your question--

Would Butler recruit Meech, GJ, Gibbs, Foster, to name four?

Yes or no?

No disrespect intended. Just askin'?

In all honestly, they'd probably give Gibbs a hard look, but pass on guards like GJ and Meech. To play Butler style basketball, you have to play controlled at all times, especially with their high level execution and slower tempo. GJ and Meech want to run, run, run and even run past their own teammates or their own dribbling ability. This isn't a slam on GJ or Meech, its just they wouldn't be a fit for Butler basketball. Also, a Butler guard is like Gonzaga of old--you have to be able to shoot the rock and have a cognizant court sense and vision. While GJ and Meech fit our style of uptempo style, they'd never make it at Butler. They are certainly good enough, but don't have quite enough basketball acumen, court savvy, and shooting ability to start for Butler. Having said that, Grant Gibbs would fit their style, imo.

zagfan08
03-27-2010, 03:10 PM
I love Gus too, but he and Elmore were hard to listen to today. I remember Gus being incredibly pro UCLA in 2006 and today he and Elmore were very biased toward Kansas State and Kelly. Just annoying despite being a great commentator.

Butler advanced because they get after it. Gonzaga doesn't get after it anymore. That's about as simple as it needs to be.

surfmonkey89
03-27-2010, 03:12 PM
Are you saying that we currently have the same talent as Butler, but we just need more seasoning?


Many of the reasons listed above are Sh!tty. Coaching and they wanted it to name a couple.

This was a F'ing rebuilding year. There are 4 guys playing pro ball that were on GU last year. We made it to the 2nd round. Talk to North Carolina, Arizona, UCLA, Indiana, etc...

We have had several teams that came OH SO CLOSE to doing what Butler did today. The fact that it worked out for Butler this year is great. The fact that it didn't work out for us in the past is a bummer, but it doesn't mean it won't in the future.

It is so hard to argue with idiots. I don't know why I waste the energy.

Goshzagit
03-27-2010, 03:13 PM
Many of the reasons listed above are Sh!tty. Coaching and they wanted it to name a couple.

This was a F'ing rebuilding year. There are 4 guys playing pro ball that were on GU last year. We made it to the 2nd round. Talk to North Carolina, Arizona, UCLA, Indiana, etc...

We have had several teams that came OH SO CLOSE to doing what Butler did today. The fact that it worked out for Butler this year is great. The fact that it didn't work out for us in the past is a bummer, but it doesn't mean it won't in the future.

It is so hard to argue with idiots. I don't know why I waste the energy.

I hear you, but until we defend like Butler does, we will never reach their level. Also, their guards defend like crazy ALL game long and they defend the perimeter as a team. Lastly, they shot 45% from 3pt b/c every player on Butler's team can shoot from deep. Their PG has court vision, get their teammates involved, makes shots, and play within an offensive system, our PG does not. Its not better or worse, its just how it is.

Zagcity
03-27-2010, 03:19 PM
Mark few has'nt been past the sweet sixteen let alone the final four. He's great at getting a team to click in the beginning of the season, but not sure what he's missing at the end. ZagLawGrad might be right the fire has'nt been so bright at the end of the seasons past. Brad Stevens has his team playing to win vs the play not to loose. Butler is in a great position to be playing for the national title.

kclubfounder
03-27-2010, 03:19 PM
I'm saying that The Dance is about timing, matchups, how a team is playing that exact time of the year, how their opponents play the exact game that you play them, what nagging injuries are happening at the moment of the game in the Dance that you need to step up, whose girlfriend dumped who, whose Dad pissed who off, who happened to get hot from the 3 point line during the right moment of the right game, etc............................

Gonzaga has had the talent and the team to make it to the Final Four about 5 times in the past decade if things worked out right. Butler - probably 3 or 4. Things worked out for Butler this year. I love it. But that doesn't mean things couldn't have worked out for the Zags in the past, and it doesn't mean we need to change and do things the 'Butler' way to make it happen in the future.

kclubfounder
03-27-2010, 03:20 PM
Hey, Zagcity,

This it the 1st year Butler made it past the Sweet 16. Did you know that?

ZagLawGrad
03-27-2010, 03:22 PM
...It is so hard to argue with idiots. I don't know why I waste the energy.

Not a bad post 'til that last line. My experience has been that the only true idiots are those labeling everyone else idiots.

surfmonkey89
03-27-2010, 03:22 PM
Gonzaga has had the talent and the team to make it to the Final Four about 5 times in the past decade if things worked out right.

Name the five years. You're completely full of it.

Goshzagit
03-27-2010, 03:25 PM
He's great at getting a team to click in the beginning of the season, but not sure what he's missing at the end.

I heard we like to keep our offense simplified in the beginning of the season and work on fundamentals during pre-season and add in wrinkles to our complicated flex system as the season progresses. Do we get too complicated or intricate as the season wears on and try to get too cutesy with our offense and players lose focus? We'll just never know...

I like when we live by the KISS standard and let our talent shine. We have the athleticism, talent, and ability to play a little more open than we did in past years, so why not keep it it that way? Coach Few said himself he was keeping it quick and easy this season during Maui since we had so many freshman, but planned to add in more sets as the players got more comfortable.

Maybe we outsmart and outthink ourselves to some extent. We must adapt to the high level of recruits were getting and maximize our ability.

zagfan08
03-27-2010, 03:44 PM
We've had the talent in 2004, 2005, 2006, and probably 2009. Throw in 1999 and there's your 5 teams. 2002 could probably be in the discussion.

But there are tons of teams that "have the talent." It's about putting it together for 40 minutes, 4 games in a row. That's where it gets tough.

And Gonzaga's problem the past few years hasn't been talent. In my opinion, we haven't had a mentally tough team in the post-Morrison era.

surfmonkey89
03-27-2010, 03:47 PM
Wow, so six out of the last ten years we've had the talent to go to the Final Four, but we haven't gotten past the sweet 16, and it's all due to random chance.

That doesn't add up on so many levels that there's no point in continuing the discussion, so I'll just bow out.

Have fun rationalizing!

zagfan08
03-27-2010, 03:49 PM
Well if Murray State hit a buzzer beater from 3 and knocked Butler out in the 2nd round, would anyone think they had a final 4 team? I'm saying those teams making the final 4 would not be any more improbable than Butler and MSU/Tenn making it this year.

kclubfounder
03-27-2010, 03:50 PM
2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2009 and if you will allow 1999 then that is 7 or 8. You are right. I am full of it. I was shorting the Zags big time.

I know, I know, you are going to twist yourself into a pretzel and go nuts trying to argue that those teams weren't capable of getting to the Final 4. But they were capable. They absolutely were capable. Things didn't quite work out.

kclubfounder
03-27-2010, 03:51 PM
Surfmonkey,

Let me guess. Math and probabilities weren't your best subjects in school.

BobZag
03-27-2010, 04:12 PM
kclubfounder, your post about matchups, timing, etc., is dead on. Very true. No argument here.

Let me pose this question, though:

If Few called Butler and told them Meech, Gibbs, GJ and Foster (pretend he's a soph) were available, would they want one of them? Again, no disrespect, I'm just posing a question. That's four of the thirteen scholarships allowed.

ZagLawGrad
03-27-2010, 04:18 PM
kclubfounder, your post about matchups, timing, etc., is dead on. Very true. No argument here.

Let me pose this question, though:

If Few called Butler and told them Meech, Gibbs, GJ and Foster (pretend he's a soph) were available, would they want one of them? Again, no disrespect, I'm just posing a question. That's four of the thirteen scholarships allowed.

I suspect the Butler coach would take none of the above. Least of all Big Will.

Birddog
03-27-2010, 04:24 PM
Surfmonkey,

Let me guess. Math and probabilities weren't your best subjects in school.
I don't know about that, but the guy can make a mean burrito.

surfmonkey89
03-27-2010, 04:38 PM
Surfmonkey,

Let me guess. Math and probabilities weren't your best subjects in school.

http://www.databasesports.com/ncaab/collegepage.htm?teamid=85

We've been to the S16 twice since 2001:
2000 - Sweet 16
2001 - Sweet 16
2003 - Round of 32
2004 - Round of 32
2005 - Sweet 16
2009 - Sweet 16

Newsflash: final four talent doesn't lose in the round of 32 twice.

I would say that I have no idea how you can look at the '09 team and say they were FF talent, but given the rest of your arguments it's crystal clear.

BTW, I was a math major, which I guess makes your major...logic? And what does math have to do with any of this anyway? According to you, a decade of everyone from Wesley Johnson to Jeremiah Dominguez torching us is just plain old bad luck.

As far as probability goes, the only thing I can say continuing this line of reasoning is probably going to dig yourself into a bigger hole.

kclubfounder
03-27-2010, 04:50 PM
Newsflash,

Final Four talent DOES lose before the Sweet 16 sometimes. Period. The fact that you would argue that is shocking - especially for someone who chose math as a major. Being strong at math normally translates to a strong ability to reason and use logic.

Bob, I suspect if you were as passionate and in tune with the Butler team then there would be recruits that you would question in the same fashion. Of course this year you would be happy as a clam and wouldn't question a damn thing.

Good for them.

NYCZAG
03-27-2010, 04:52 PM
No point guard no leadership from the point you don't win-You don't need to score a ton but you need to lead-I think Gonzaga just can't find the right people who will come-Its a big business you have to be lucky-I don't have the link but nytimes.com great story about rod strickland and what a point guard is suppose to do for a team-We don't have that-Hopefully soon and the Butler board will be saying wow why the Zags and not us!-

BobZag
03-27-2010, 04:54 PM
Fair enough, kclubfounder.

zagfan08
03-27-2010, 04:58 PM
So Kansas didn't have final 4 talent this year?

bartruff1
03-27-2010, 05:32 PM
Gee...so why did Butler make it.....and not Kentucky....gee....and not Kansas

RenoZag
03-27-2010, 05:36 PM
how is it that Butler makes the Final Four before us?

Better team.

surfmonkey89
03-27-2010, 05:37 PM
Are we really comparing ourselves to Kentucky and Kansas now?

I'm not saying that you can have Final Four talent and not make the Final Four.

I'm saying we didn't have Final Four talent 6, 7, or 8 out of the last 10 years.

And somehow I'm the illogical one.

ETA: and I'm also saying that we didn't get eliminated from the tourney every year due to pure chance, or especially not because of "bad matchups".

We got eliminated most of the time due to teams exploiting the systemic weaknesses in our system. Every program has weaknesses (Calipari and free throws for example). Some adjust, others do not.

kclubfounder
03-27-2010, 05:44 PM
Yep, you are. But nice job pulling the "Butler has gone beyond the Sweet 16" post, or you would look even worse.

bartruff1
03-27-2010, 05:47 PM
Better team. You might have something here Reno...something most of us can agree on...but fools abound and given the slightest oportunity they will grind their same old axes...groan...

Once and Future Zag
03-27-2010, 05:50 PM
Does anyone know where the knicker-untwisting machine is?

This thread needs it.

ZagDaddy
03-27-2010, 05:55 PM
When was the last time Gonzaga had a team that was peaking come tourney time? Not sure how you control that but Zags frequently early to mid season then hang on. Any guesses what's behind that?

RenoZag
03-27-2010, 05:56 PM
You might have something here Reno...something most of us can agree on...but fools abound and given the slightest oportunity they will grind their same old axes...groan...

No axe to grind, darts to throw, dimes to drop. . .right now Butler's just better.

Congrats to them.

HillBillyZag
03-27-2010, 05:59 PM
All season when I've had the chance to watch them Butler did three things that made the major difference between their seasons end and ours.
#1. They were HUNGRY, they ref'used to lose.
#2. The played DEFENSE, for a whole game, not just a half or less.
#3. FUNDEMENTALS- they set picks, they screened, they blocked out and crashed the boards and they spread the ball around. They did not beat themselves. In my estimation Outside of Gordon Hayword, who will play in the NBA, most of our players stack up well against their team. If we were HUNGRY enough we could beat them. Its not Coach Few's fault, he can't put heart into the players, thats up to them. Now that Butler has raised the bar, perhaps our kids will take heed?

U Zig, I Zag
03-27-2010, 06:39 PM
This question may answer your question--

Would Butler recruit Meech, GJ, Gibbs, Foster, to name four?

Yes or no?

No disrespect intended. Just askin'?

GJ, maybe. The others no. Not well rounded enough. Kentucky was after GJ until Cal came onboard. Well, Gibbs maybe but they play 'slower' down low. Butler guards are quick, not really tall, but they are quick and athletic. GG is not...

LongIslandZagFan
03-27-2010, 06:49 PM
Fundamental missing piece... Plain old fashioned luck. You need a bit of it to get 6Ws against top level teams.

Sorry Few haters/doubters... that is the missing item.

U Zig, I Zag
03-27-2010, 06:55 PM
Fundamental missing piece... Plain old fashioned luck. You need a bit of it to get 6Ws against top level teams.

Sorry Few haters/doubters... that is the missing item.

+1 thank you.

just said something similar on another thread... sometimes it goes your way and sometimes it doesn't. When you get into the top 20 or so teams each year some crazy things happen.

nonzagzag
03-27-2010, 06:56 PM
I bet Butler has some benchwarmers that we wouldn't want either.

they have been able to reload and have 3-4 great players at any one time for the last 4-5 years though

bartruff1
03-27-2010, 07:02 PM
No axe to grind, darts to throw, dimes to drop. . .right now Butler's just better.

Congrats to them.I agree with you completely...I was poking a finger at the people in here who like to blame the coach...the point guard ...the league...the concussion...the bench...the seeding....the travel .. the free throws...the whatever...when in fact teams with the best point guards are out.....teams with the best coaches are out...teams from the best leagues are out....Gonzaga might be in the top thirty this year... Butler might be in the top 10....and in a one and done, it looks like any of the teams can win and any of the teams can lose....and to find blame ....???? Give credit to Butler ....

Reborn
03-27-2010, 07:04 PM
Defending the 3, which is GU's biggest weakness this year and almost every year. Teams who advance past the Sweet 16 all defend the 3 pt shot. Kentucky was 0-20 before they made one. You HAVE not EVER SEEN THAT when teams play GU. Butler was in great shape. Zags looked very tired at the end of the year. VERY TIRED. Breathing hard, bent over, holding their knees or shorts, looked tired. Butler had great 3 pt shooting. Butlar's studs stepped up and played like they are All Americans. I mean they have clutch players. I would call that confidence. Gonzaga has not seemed like a confident team since '00, accept for the year Morrison was a Junior. And still, Morrison couldn't hit the big shots at the end of that game. Does confidence come from the coach? Makes me wonder. I heard the interview with Huggins after the game. He told all hte guys he's recruited that they are planning on winning the National Championship.

JPtheBeasta
03-27-2010, 07:09 PM
It seems kind of silly to watch your team every year in the NCAA tournament if you don't think they have a chance to make the Final Four. I question why someone with that opinion would bother watching at all- except to point fingers and say "I told you so" when it's all over.

I've always thought every year that they have had a (outside) chance of making it- the UCLA year I thought we had the pieces and a legitimate shot. Did we have the talent this year? Yes. I thought we matched up well against Syracuse and we could have given Butler a game. Our guard play, which was our strength, let us down a bit this year.

Maybe they already knew that they overacheived this year and didn't play with as much hunger as other teams- but it's hard to question their heart when you can't look inside them. Kentucky just lost in similar fashion as us (bad outside shooting, giving up 3's)- does anyone here think they aren't talented or didn't want it bad enough?

The negative tone is understandable because all of us want so bad to make that proverbial next step. It sucks to see a "Cinderalla" swoop in and beat the team that just blew you out- but Butler was picked by some at the start of this year as a Final 4 calibre team. Not many here thought we had a legitimate shot this year. Maybe it will come for this group, maybe it won't. But these successes we are seeing are 10+ years in the making and patience is a virtue in this regard. I think we are due, that is why it is so great that we have next year to look forward to.

zagfan08
03-27-2010, 08:30 PM
The only year during our run where I thought there was NO WAY we could make it to the final 4 was the 06-07 team Raivio's senior year. After Heytvelt's suspension, making the tournament was a good accomplishment for that squad. I thought we had a chance in the first round against Indiana, but UCLA would have been way too much in the second round.

Ultimately, a team has to be talented and be lucky. Bounces have to go your way toward the end of games. Talent outweighs luck, but it's tough to string together wins in the tournament without both. By luck, I'm grouping matchups, referee calls, and just lucky aspects throughout the course of the game, i.e. SMC and McConnell banking in a 3 in the final 90 seconds of their win over Villanova.

Das Zagger
03-27-2010, 08:41 PM
So Kansas didn't have final 4 talent this year?

Talent + coaching = F4

Kansas was missing something from this equation this year.

zag69
03-27-2010, 08:57 PM
(snip)It is so hard to argue with idiots. I don't know why I waste the energy.

Perhaps you shouldn't? It doesn't contribute anything to the MBB forum when one is rude, profane, sarcastic and patronizing.

Saxon_zag
03-27-2010, 11:48 PM
To end the final 4 talent debate I think you can only definitively say the zags had legit final 4 talent 1 year. And the hopes of that final 4 were thrown away as the Ball slipped out of J.P. Batistas' hands and Adam Morrison collapsed to the floor in tears. Easily the most talented zags team

mgadfly
03-28-2010, 12:21 AM
To end the final 4 talent debate I think you can only definitively say the zags had legit final 4 talent 1 year. And the hopes of that final 4 were thrown away as the Ball slipped out of J.P. Batistas' hands and Adam Morrison collapsed to the floor in tears. Easily the most talented zags team

Statistically, the best team we have had since 1999 was 2009.

We played UNC too early in the tournament. If the expectations weren't sky high going into last year I think a lot more people would appreciate that team for what it was (outside of the four or five games following Sacre's injury).

Saxon_zag
03-28-2010, 01:09 AM
THat may be what the stats say but does zag-land actually think that 2009 was better than the BAtista morrison team?

CB4
03-28-2010, 01:13 AM
This whole "bad luck" argument is nonsense. My father used to tell me that bad luck is what losers call a lack of preparation. Teams control their own fate. It's not Gonzaga, and has never been, because the Zags have not controlled what they can control to the best of their ability.

bartruff1
03-28-2010, 05:31 AM
Perhaps you shouldn't? It doesn't contribute anything to the MBB forum when one is rude, profane, sarcastic and patronizing. Hey !!!...easy...easy...we give what we can..:)

bartruff1
03-28-2010, 05:33 AM
This whole "bad luck" argument is nonsense. My father used to tell me that bad luck is what losers call a lack of preparation. Teams control their own fate. It's not Gonzaga, and has never been, because the Zags have not controlled what they can control to the best of their ability. Well, there is good and bad luck...but they have lost before the FF because they are not good enought....you have to have the talent among other things...simple ....

bartruff1
03-28-2010, 05:35 AM
THat may be what the stats say but does zag-land actually think that 2009 was better than the BAtista morrison team? I sure as hell do...in EVERY way...

jazzdelmar
03-28-2010, 05:48 AM
I sure as hell do...in EVERY way...

agree....the ammo team also started pmac (gulp), raivio (gulp) and mallon (double gulp).......

mgadfly
03-28-2010, 08:58 AM
THat may be what the stats say but does zag-land actually think that 2009 was better than the BAtista morrison team?

I'm not sure who Zag-Land is, but I think the 2009 team was the better team.



And as for this "luck" thing, I don't really care what someone's dad said about luck and losers, it is real. You work hard and prepare the best so when the ball bounces the right way you are prepared to make the most of it. If the ball bounces the wrong way you're out. I had a very good and hard working friend of mine die of Leukemia at age 26 and I can't imagine anyone working harder than she did to beat it (and I'm not practicing revisionist history, she was an incredibly hard worker at everything and anything she did). She didn't; that's how the ball bounces sometimes, good and hard working people lose.

Once and Future Zag
03-28-2010, 09:20 AM
THat may be what the stats say but does zag-land actually think that 2009 was better than the BAtista morrison team?

Absolutely.

One of the reasons I think some fold undervalue the 2009 team is that they focus on the mid-season slump, but not on how well they played the rest of the year. Also, aside from Pargo and Daye, they were a singularly undemonstrative group on the court.

We know how stoic Bouldin always was, Gray was icy-cool, Heytvelt was no longer the roaring madman he was his frosh/soph seasons, Downs was pretty mellow as well.

That's not to say they were not passionate about playing or playing hard, they just weren't wearing it on their sleeves.

it's easy to see someone frantically hustle to catch up and point out "hustle", it's another to not HAVE to catch up, by being 2 steps ahead of the other team mentally - that sort of hustling takes place in the film room.

Once and Future Zag
03-28-2010, 09:21 AM
This whole "bad luck" argument is nonsense. My father used to tell me that bad luck is what losers call a lack of preparation.

That's the fallacy of a fair universe.

EngineerZag
03-28-2010, 09:41 AM
Butler is so quick on defense and smooth on helping that they're able to extend their defense several feet beyond the three point line and get teams out of their comfort zones just in trying to pass the ball and run plays, let alone score. I'd like to see us implement something like that. If Butler can do it, there's no reason we can't with the athletes we have. But it takes GREAT communication and teamwork to pull it off.

gamagin
03-28-2010, 09:43 AM
Not one single Zag player, coach, alum, administrator, past or present, living or dead, knows what it actually takes to get to the FF because none has ever gotten there.

The only person closest to the FF still associated with GU is Mark Few. But he's never gotten there, either.

Therein lies the crisis. And the opportunity.

So I say it involves all the suggestions in this thread and none of them. But we will all know how and celebrate it when it happens.

ZaginLaw
03-28-2010, 09:54 AM
Similar to my other post a few mins. ago.

The AMMO team had a toughness that was similar to the E8 team - even with the players Jazz mentioned.

Butler has a toughness about them that hasn't been matched yet. MSU has had many teams with toughness that has lead to wins and perhaps "overachieving".

Toughness - mentally and physically - leads to execution, defense, completed plays, and players not taking any time off on the court.

Talent + Coaching < Coaching + toughness

Unfortunately (or fortunately) talent and toughness don't go hand in hand. Not very many players have both. Perhaps it's the culture of the burger boys...

Re-watching that E8 team I see a toughness about them that few Zags teams since have emulated.

VinnyZag
03-28-2010, 10:28 AM
The only GU team I've ever thought had a legit chance to make the Final Four was 2000, and that opportunity slipped away when Nilson got hurt. The Morrison-Batista team didn't play enough defense, the Pargo-Heytvelt team blew its chance by losing to Portland State and Utah (thus slipping to a 4 seed) and this year's team ... I never believed this year's team had a shot, as inexperienced as it was and as reliant on Bouldin as it was.

Please don't think that makes me less of a fan. I'm just a realist.

Next year's team, I think, has a real shot. Just need to shore up the point guard spot and avoid disastrous losses that will put them in tough situations in the tournament (like losing at San Fran). Sounds easy, right?

CB4
03-28-2010, 10:53 AM
The Zags haven't made it past the S16 in recent years for reasons more than simply "bad luck." There's a reason you see the same teams in the E8 every year, and it's not luck.

gamagin
03-28-2010, 12:50 PM
The Zags haven't made it past the S16 in recent years for reasons more than simply "bad luck." There's a reason you see the same teams in the E8 every year, and it's not luck.

that just sent TN home and sent MSU to the FF ? Elaborate, please.

NYCZAG
03-28-2010, 03:22 PM
Please I would rather have AMMO on the court by himself then last year's team as a whole-Pargo couldn't shoot-Joshy would go into a slumber-Austin Daye was too busy looking in the crowd for NBA scouts-Micah got a lot better towards the end of the season wish he had got one more season in and Matt well he was good but Adam he is not by any stretch the imagination-That being said Love Ya Bye-

bartruff1
03-28-2010, 03:59 PM
You and Ammo would agree on that... being on the court by himself that is...

kclubfounder
03-28-2010, 05:03 PM
Butler, Michigan State, West Virginia and Duke.

It is so clear. Those are the 4 teams who had the talent, coaching, and desire to make it to the final four this year. All the other teams simply didn't have it. I think all those other teams should seriously question themselves. Something needs to change. Most likely either the coach should get fired or the recruiting priorities need to change.

bartruff1
03-28-2010, 07:28 PM
Butler, Michigan State, West Virginia and Duke.

It is so clear. Those are the 4 teams who had the talent, coaching, and desire to make it to the final four this year. All the other teams simply didn't have it. I think all those other teams should seriously question themselves. Something needs to change. Most likely either the coach should get fired or the recruiting priorities need to change. Hummm..to be "so clear" as you say.....are you suggesting that the 350 or so coaches that didn't make the FF be fired ?? And the players ??? That they should lose their scholarships to new recruits that have the right stuff ?....well sure...I guess that makes sense...you bet...back in the olden days, by god, the losing teams lost their lives... that tends to focus the mind...

dpouley
03-28-2010, 09:19 PM
Fundamental missing piece... Plain old fashioned luck. You need a bit of it to get 6Ws against top level teams.

Sorry Few haters/doubters... that is the missing item.

Maybe Few should stop recruiting and coaching and just start buying rabbits feet in bulk.

So the Zags are just super unlucky?

In my opinion, Final Four teams make their own luck.

dpouley
03-28-2010, 09:23 PM
We played UNC too early in the tournament.

If you can't beat UNC in the Sweet Sixteen why would you be able to beat UNC in the elite eight or final four?

Psychozag
03-28-2010, 09:47 PM
If you can't beat UNC in the Sweet Sixteen why would you be able to beat UNC in the elite eight or final four?

We wouldn't have, but like MSU, we might have been able to lose to UNC by 20 in the NC game. And MSU is in the Final Four again this year, which makes them FF talented. A missed, step-back crazy shot from Lucious (sp?), and they would have been a second round talent like us.

Zag79
03-28-2010, 11:24 PM
Reasons why Butler won include:

- Everyone can shoot.

seems like a shot at meech, but in our losses this season our "studs" were just as bad if not worse. he doesnt get much blame for our losses, sorry.

- Tenacious D. How many times did you see them run at a wide open guy shooting a three trying to get a hand in their face? Almost never, because the shooters weren't open in the first place.

fully agreed. our D went out the window as the season wore on. the wcc could hang 70 or more on us no sweat.

- Throw themselves after every loose ball.

- Team concept, as opposed to having one or two potential NBAers, and tailoring everything to them.

- Aggressive mentality. They showed no fear, play to win instead of playing not to lose, and no one played as if they were going to get benched the first time they made a mistake.

Read into that what you will.

and the rest i fully agree on. :D i think we have had some final 4 "calibur" teams. the elite 8 team was a minute away, mo's team was moments away from a possible run if not for slowing it up too soon, last years team was good enough but ran into nba-jr sooner than later, and even this years team had the talent to make a final 4 run but lacked consistency. i think what people are missing is the difference between the talent to do it vs getting it done. have we? no. could we have talent wise? hell yes. considering how long gonzaga has been a "basketball school" compared to the other names on the list im very happy and grateful for what i get to watch every year.

TacomaZAG
03-29-2010, 08:27 AM
one thing that hasn't been mentioned yet (or I missed it in the 4 pages of posts) is playing style. Looking at the games against 'Cuse and KSU especially, Butler just drags their opponents down into the mud, hangs around and waits for a chance to win it late. Their basketball IQ is very high, they play really good D, they make their FT's, and they don't turn it over very much (I think that is called fundamental basketball). When you combine that with the fact that they severly limit the number of possessions the opponent gets over the 40 minutes, you throw in a little luck, and there you go. UNI and Cornell play the same way and we all saw their success in this tournament. If UNI's best FT shooters would have simply shot their average from the stripe in the S-16 game, they would be in the FF instead of MSU. Also, Cornell just ran out of gas or they might still be playing also.

The coaches at these schools know this is their best opportunity for success, so they recruit players that fit into this system. Good for them. We think our system is our best opportunity for success, so we recruit players that that fit into our system. Good for us.

Also, the "experts" were 3-8 in their selections of who would go to the EE, and 1-4 on who would go to the FF, so they don't know anymore than our receptionist who had better results using the team mascots as a means for her selections.

Bottom line, in D1 college hoops and especially in the tourney, any team can beat any other team on any given night. That's why the dance is the best sporting event ever.

Please resist the urge to overanalyze and just enjoy the moment. The ZAGS are in good hands, we have just been spoiled for the last decade+. 90%+ of the D1 teams in the country would trade places with us in a heartbeat.

Anyone heard from George Mason lately...........................

Go ZAGS

gamagin
03-29-2010, 08:41 AM
excellent post. thanks.

ZagNative
03-29-2010, 08:44 AM
Newsflash: final four talent doesn't lose in the round of 32 twice.
Really? Am I misunderstanding your point? (Second column is the seed.)


Year Seed Team Finish Lost to
1999 6 Kansas Round of 32 3 Kentucky
2000 8 Kansas Round of 32 1 Duke
2001 4 Kansas Sweet 16 1 Illinois
2002 1 Kansas Final Four 1 Maryland
2003 2 Kansas Runnerup 3 Syracuse
2004 4 Kansas Elite 8 3 Georgia Tech
2005 3 Kansas Round of 64 Bucknell
2006 4 Kansas Round of 64 Bradley
2007 1 Kansas Elite 8 UCLA
2008 1 Kansas Champ
2009 3 Kansas Sweet 16 Michigan St.
2010 1 Kansas Round of 32 Northern Iowa

BigTymeONIONS
03-29-2010, 01:42 PM
Teams that pull "upsets"(not really sure Butler to FF is an upset, especially this yr) in March usually make teams play to their style whether it is fast or slow. Butler happens to be a slow down team and got a draw where they played 2 fast teams in Syracuse and KSU. This is where the luck comes in. Suppose they had drawn a slower team with, arguably, more talent such as Ohio St. This could have posed a tougher game for Butler because they would be more comfortable playing slow. Not that they wouldn't have won anyway but just a thought. So, luck does factor in how far you go in the tourney, not talent alone. We have been good enough in the past, it just hasn't happened.

Another thought: Butler plays harder, better defense than I can remember any Zag team playing consistently. I know that is their game plan and they recruit to that as has been mentioned in other posts but defense can hide other deficiencies and also allow for wins on poor offensive nights.

Personally, I was fine with how our season turned out besides the WCC championship game. I don't know that this team was a sweet sixteen team in my mind. I wish we would have played Syracuse better and went farther but all in all, I can't say that we choked in the tourney or like previous years.

SFZAG95
03-29-2010, 03:23 PM
It seems kind of silly to watch your team every year in the NCAA tournament if you don't think they have a chance to make the Final Four. I question why someone with that opinion would bother watching at all- except to point fingers and say "I told you so" when it's all over.

I've always thought every year that they have had a (outside) chance of making it- the UCLA year I thought we had the pieces and a legitimate shot. Did we have the talent this year? Yes. I thought we matched up well against Syracuse and we could have given Butler a game. Our guard play, which was our strength, let us down a bit this year.

Maybe they already knew that they overacheived this year and didn't play with as much hunger as other teams- but it's hard to question their heart when you can't look inside them. Kentucky just lost in similar fashion as us (bad outside shooting, giving up 3's)- does anyone here think they aren't talented or didn't want it bad enough?

The negative tone is understandable because all of us want so bad to make that proverbial next step. It sucks to see a "Cinderalla" swoop in and beat the team that just blew you out- but Butler was picked by some at the start of this year as a Final 4 calibre team. Not many here thought we had a legitimate shot this year. Maybe it will come for this group, maybe it won't. But these successes we are seeing are 10+ years in the making and patience is a virtue in this regard. I think we are due, that is why it is so great that we have next year to look forward to.

Albert Einstein once said "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results

surfmonkey89
03-29-2010, 04:39 PM
You appear to be missing everything. I was listing those results based on the fact that someone said we had FF talent up to 8 of the last 10 years.

A couple more points regarding your list:
- Bill Self is a few missed free throws by Memphis from being on the hot seat, even with that record
- If Gonzaga had been to two Elite Eights, runner up once and national championship once in the last ten years, I'm guessing we wouldn't be debating why Butler did so well in this tournament.



Really? Am I misunderstanding your point? (Second column is the seed.)


Year Seed Team Finish Lost to
1999 6 Kansas Round of 32 3 Kentucky
2000 8 Kansas Round of 32 1 Duke
2001 4 Kansas Sweet 16 1 Illinois
2002 1 Kansas Final Four 1 Maryland
2003 2 Kansas Runnerup 3 Syracuse
2004 4 Kansas Elite 8 3 Georgia Tech
2005 3 Kansas Round of 64 Bucknell
2006 4 Kansas Round of 64 Bradley
2007 1 Kansas Elite 8 UCLA
2008 1 Kansas Champ
2009 3 Kansas Sweet 16 Michigan St.
2010 1 Kansas Round of 32 Northern Iowa

surfmonkey89
03-29-2010, 04:42 PM
Thanks for the constructive discussion (seriously).

It wasn't a dig on Meech. As a team, Butler shoots better than we do. That was my point.



and the rest i fully agree on. :D i think we have had some final 4 "calibur" teams. the elite 8 team was a minute away, mo's team was moments away from a possible run if not for slowing it up too soon, last years team was good enough but ran into nba-jr sooner than later, and even this years team had the talent to make a final 4 run but lacked consistency. i think what people are missing is the difference between the talent to do it vs getting it done. have we? no. could we have talent wise? hell yes. considering how long gonzaga has been a "basketball school" compared to the other names on the list im very happy and grateful for what i get to watch every year.

coolhandzag
03-30-2010, 07:07 AM
1. Defense
2. Rebounding
3. Execution of Offensive Scheme
4. Matchups (Draw) in bracket.

Zag Man
03-30-2010, 08:13 AM
Watching Butler play has been a delight for me to see. They play basketball like a good team should play. Their defense is tenacious and disruptive to the other team and they box-out and rebound extremely well. Plus, they are aggressive when going after every loose basketball. Both of these factors will get you extra possessions, which can be critical at the end of the game. I believe their biggest assets are they are careful with the basketball on each possession and the entire team can really shoot free-throws well!

To tell you the truth, they are the team I thought Gonzaga would be at the end of this season. We showed some of the same qualities as Butler during the season with our defensive pressure and rebounding. I believe the Zags are a better shooting team than Butler, but we are not as good taking care of the basketball and our free-throw shooting needs some work.

Iím cheering for Butler to win it all and I hope they do. It would be great for college basketball! I just wish it was the Zags playing rather than Butler this weekend.

gamagin
03-30-2010, 09:29 AM
and the rest i fully agree on. :D i think we have had some final 4 "calibur" teams. the elite 8 team was a minute away, mo's team was moments away from a possible run if not for slowing it up too soon, last years team was good enough but ran into nba-jr sooner than later, and even this years team had the talent to make a final 4 run but lacked consistency. i think what people are missing is the difference between the talent to do it vs getting it done. have we? no. could we have talent wise? hell yes. considering how long gonzaga has been a "basketball school" compared to the other names on the list im very happy and grateful for what i get to watch every year.


spot on: "the difference between the talent to do it vs getting it done."

The GU table keeps getting set, year after year.

Ultimately, the players on the floor need to reach inside themselves, exploit every opportunity, utilize every second, make intelligent, split-second decisions and drive themselves to be and perform better than their opponents.

All this is confined inside a 40 minute timeframe in which the other side is committed to doing all that plus whatever else it take to win.

So who wins, and why ?

The team that does fractionally better, or takes advantage of the lucky moments presented, like a bad call or a good call vs. the opponent, or a slight hesitation, and capitalizes by taking and making those advantages & turning them into enough points to be ahead at the buzzer, wins.

Like MSU did @ the f.t. line to reach the final four, and like Stanford women did last night to beat Xavier.

One of Xavier's star forwards could not make a wide open, standing at the basket, all alone, layup. fate presented her with a second, wide open shot, too. It did not go in. there were 4.2 seconds left and the score was tied.

Stanford player, with 5 points in the game, drove end-to-end and scored a layup.

Stanford goes to the FF. Xavier goes home.

Life goes on.