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skan72
03-21-2010, 09:48 AM
The commentator did just say it best. Earlier this year, as Few said recently, around their first couple practises, he wasn't sure they'd even make the tournament at all. They came together and have had a great season thus far with only one senior who contributes, Bouldin. We had 7 newcomers? We were young, and even Few was questioning early whether or not we'd make the tourney.

We're young, we had 7 (7 right??) newcomers this year. We have 8 freshman, 3 sophomores, and 1 junior. Only 2 guys graduating, and only one that really contributed. We are probably going to have an even better team next year. Imagine Sacre makes the same progress this summer as he did last? I'm sure he will, he has seen what hard work does. I remember going to a pick up game and watching his very first summer in Gonzaga. Some old guy sitting beside was talking to his buddy saying Sacre wouldn't amount to much at Gonzaga, just based on one scrimmage. Well, we've got a young group of guys, and Sacre is looking more and more like a stud in the making. Not to mention Harris, Meech, Gray, Olynyk, Kong, Arop, Vilarino, Dower, Gibbs, Hart, and Stockton.

Next year is going to be as much fun and excitement as this year, if not more. We're going to be better shooters, we're going to be better inside, and we're just going to be better and more EXPERIENCED all around.

Good work Zags. Put in work this summer.

billyberu
03-21-2010, 10:29 AM
The commentator did just say it best. Earlier this year, as Few said recently, around their first couple practises, he wasn't sure they'd even make the tournament at all. They came together and have had a great season thus far with only one senior who contributes, Bouldin. We had 7 newcomers? We were young, and even Few was questioning early whether or not we'd make the tourney.

We're young, we had 7 (7 right??) newcomers this year. We have 8 freshman, 3 sophomores, and 1 junior. Only 2 guys graduating, and only one that really contributed. We are probably going to have an even better team next year. Imagine Sacre makes the same progress this summer as he did last? I'm sure he will, he has seen what hard work does. I remember going to a pick up game and watching his very first summer in Gonzaga. Some old guy sitting beside was talking to his buddy saying Sacre wouldn't amount to much at Gonzaga, just based on one scrimmage. Well, we've got a young group of guys, and Sacre is looking more and more like a stud in the making. Not to mention Harris, Meech, Gray, Olynyk, Kong, Arop, Vilarino, Dower, Gibbs, Hart, and Stockton.

Next year is going to be as much fun and excitement as this year, if not more. We're going to be better shooters, we're going to be better inside, and we're just going to be better and more EXPERIENCED all around.

Good work Zags. Put in work this summer.

Well said. It doesn't remove the pain of this loss, however and nothing will except the beginning of a new season.

I was proud of the way Elias, Robert and GJ payed today. It wasn't enough and I'm sure nothing short of a miracle performance would have been enough to defeat Syracuse with the way they were hitting their outside shots. It was sick.

I like Meech and his hard-charging attitude. I have staunchly defended him through this year, but I'm not sure he should be the starting PG next year. Perhaps the last half of the 2nd half was an inkling with GJ getting most of those minutes. We need a scoring threat at the 1.

Next year beholds many great things. I am looking forward to it. It's always dissappointing to lose, whether by one point or twenty. This team will be back and no detractor of this program will ever understand that simple fact. Let them stew in their gleeful malice.

dawgfather11
03-21-2010, 11:03 AM
The commentator did just say it best. Earlier this year, as Few said recently, around their first couple practises, he wasn't sure they'd even make the tournament at all. They came together and have had a great season thus far with only one senior who contributes, Bouldin. We had 7 newcomers? We were young, and even Few was questioning early whether or not we'd make the tourney.

We're young, we had 7 (7 right??) newcomers this year. We have 8 freshman, 3 sophomores, and 1 junior. Only 2 guys graduating, and only one that really contributed. We are probably going to have an even better team next year. Imagine Sacre makes the same progress this summer as he did last? I'm sure he will, he has seen what hard work does. I remember going to a pick up game and watching his very first summer in Gonzaga. Some old guy sitting beside was talking to his buddy saying Sacre wouldn't amount to much at Gonzaga, just based on one scrimmage. Well, we've got a young group of guys, and Sacre is looking more and more like a stud in the making. Not to mention Harris, Meech, Gray, Olynyk, Kong, Arop, Vilarino, Dower, Gibbs, Hart, and Stockton.

Next year is going to be as much fun and excitement as this year, if not more. We're going to be better shooters, we're going to be better inside, and we're just going to be better and more EXPERIENCED all around.

Good work Zags. Put in work this summer.

Being a young team isn't really a valid excuse, it's all about having the leadership and the team buying into the team concept and playing tough d. Your team should feed off your leader and as i've said for years I don't think Bouldin is a good leader, he disappears to much in big games. Bouldin had a good year, but he shouldn't ever be the primary option, he's better off as a 2nd or third option. As to tough D, it just doesn't ever seem like that's something that Mark Few ever coaches, if it's one of his assistants who is in charge of the defense he needs to fire them and bring someone in who can actually coach defense. We will see GU could be very good next year if harris comes back, although not sure how likely that is.

skan72
03-21-2010, 11:05 AM
Well said. It doesn't remove the pain of this loss, however and nothing will except the beginning of a new season.

I was proud of the way Elias, Robert and GJ payed today. It wasn't enough and I'm sure nothing short of a miracle performance would have been enough to defeat Syracuse with the way they were hitting their outside shots. It was sick.

I like Meech and his hard-charging attitude. I have staunchly defended him through this year, but I'm not sure he should be the starting PG next year. Perhaps the last half of the 2nd half was an inkling with GJ getting most of those minutes. We need a scoring threat at the 1.

Next year beholds many great things. I am looking forward to it. It's always dissappointing to lose, whether by one point or twenty. This team will be back and no detractor of this program will ever understand that simple fact. Let them stew in their gleeful malice.

I agree with you. But, Meech's shot isn't completely broken (you didn't say this, I just want to touch on the subject), looking at it I think some adjustments and hard work could make him into a reliable shooter. And we all know he can get to the tin, he's just gotta work on finishing in traffic.

The loss sucks, yes. But it'll make us better as a team. The guys are gonna do great things this summer that will set them up for success next year. Arop, Olynyk, Kong, and Sacre getting some burn for Team Canada won't hurt anything either. Whether they tryout and make it or not, it'll still help them.

I can't wait for next season already. It's gonna be one of the best in recent memory methinks.

billyberu
03-21-2010, 11:06 AM
Being a young team isn't really a valid excuse, it's all about having the leadership and the team buying into the team concept and playing tough d. Your team should feed off your leader and as i've said for years I don't think Bouldin is a good leader, he disappears to much in big games. Bouldin had a good year, but he shouldn't ever be the primary option, he's better off as a 2nd or third option. As to tough D, it just doesn't ever seem like that's something that Mark Few ever coaches, if it's one of his assistants who is in charge of the defense he needs to fire them and bring someone in who can actually coach defense. We will see GU could be very good next year if harris comes back, although not sure how likely that is.

Isn't it great that even simple minds can have opinions.

skan72
03-21-2010, 11:07 AM
Isn't it great that even simple minds can have opinions.

:D :p very amused.

skan72
03-21-2010, 11:12 AM
Being a young team isn't really a valid excuse, it's all about having the leadership and the team buying into the team concept and playing tough d. Your team should feed off your leader and as i've said for years I don't think Bouldin is a good leader, he disappears to much in big games. Bouldin had a good year, but he shouldn't ever be the primary option, he's better off as a 2nd or third option. As to tough D, it just doesn't ever seem like that's something that Mark Few ever coaches, if it's one of his assistants who is in charge of the defense he needs to fire them and bring someone in who can actually coach defense. We will see GU could be very good next year if harris comes back, although not sure how likely that is.

Yes, being inexperienced is an excuse. Young, maybe not, because all these guys are young relatively speaking. But we had 10 guys who had never played D1 ball, and they came together well and because of their play it caused us to put expectations on their shoulders. Which is a good thing! We expected them to beat Syracuse, and heck, they could have if Syracuse doesn't shoot the lights out, or we look in the post a lot more once Jackson goes out. But we didn't, the EXPERIENCE isn't there. Next year we are going to be really good, even if Harris doesn't come back, with him we'll be great, IMO.

Let's look at last year's national championship team UNC, how many seniors were coming back for more every year on that team?
Kansas in 2008? Chalmers, Rush, Robinson, etc. Who was the point guard for Memphis? An inexperienced freshman.
2007 Florida? All juniors, repeating.
2006 Florida? A lot of sophomores, but not 10 newcomers to D1, but also with Lee Humphrey a stud junior.

Need I go on?

Being inexperienced...I don't want to use the word excuse...I'm not excusing us, I never said that, we didn't play well against Syracuse...if you missed my point, what I was getting at is that we are SO young and we did such good things in spite of that...next year is going to be stellar. You did really miss my point completely.

dawgfather11
03-21-2010, 11:14 AM
No, why the do the experts bring that up every year? Year in and year out, the experienced teams advance in the tourney and teams as young as the Zags are lucky even to get there.

it's a factor but not the whole point. GU has what 7 fresh/sophmore playing significant minutes, UW has 6 this year (When they won the pac-10 last year they had 7 fwiw). Really not that much of a difference, I think it has more to do with the other factors I brought up than anything else.

dawgfather11
03-21-2010, 11:16 AM
Isn't it great that even simple minds can have opinions.

says someone who brings nothing to the table...

BlueVoodoo07
03-21-2010, 11:24 AM
it's a factor but not the whole point. GU has what 7 fresh/sophmore playing significant minutes, UW has 6 this year (When they won the pac-10 last year they had 7 fwiw). Really not that much of a difference, I think it has more to do with the other factors I brought up than anything else.

You have not played at a high level of sports if you really think being young doesn't matter. Also trust me UW had a cake walk into the sweet 16 Cuse would stomp your Dawgs bad. Before you say no Lobos are a joke and your first game cuse already took care of them this year.

billyberu
03-21-2010, 11:26 AM
it's a factor but not the whole point. GU has what 7 fresh/sophmore playing significant minutes, UW has 6 this year (When they won the pac-10 last year they had 7 fwiw). Really not that much of a difference, I think it has more to do with the other factors I brought up than anything else.

The underlying message to your wavering point is that Gonzaga has no true leadership, but that your beloved Huskies do, right? You have come onto our boards after a difficult loss to spread your misguided wisdom and enlighten us with nonsense.

MickMick
03-21-2010, 11:30 AM
John Wall and Cousins can get it done. I doubt they do because of experience.

The cumulative effect of youth is amplified by the size of the group. You can get by with a few, but you still need some veterans. Further, it is less about youth and more about time spent together as a unit.

Maui still boggles my mind. The team had just met each other a month prior.

UNC assembled a group of youngins and struggled. UNI has a group of veterans that took out Kansas.

The argument is more than valid.

I give this team much more leniency than the senior laden squad last year.


As for the UW youth, New Mexico is a long ways from Syracuse. Perhaps Marquette (and where they finished) is a better baramoter of how good Cuse is. If QPon needed a buzzer beater to beat Marquette.......just sayin'

skan72
03-21-2010, 11:57 AM
it's a factor but not the whole point. GU has what 7 fresh/sophmore playing significant minutes, UW has 6 this year (When they won the pac-10 last year they had 7 fwiw). Really not that much of a difference, I think it has more to do with the other factors I brought up than anything else.


This really wasn't an excuse thread, nor is there an argument...not that I started or intended to start at least.

However, we had 7 freshmen this year and 3 sophomores. We had 10 guys on the team in total who had never played D1 basketball before, not a minute. Four of which got significant minutes.

Let's look at you last year: Your guys with 10 mpg+ - Jon Brockman (Sr.) 30, Isiah Thomas (Fr.) 28, Justin Dentmon (Sr.) 28, Pondexter (Jr.) 28, Overton (So.) 20, Darnell Gant (Fr.) 18, Bryan-Amaning (So.) 16, Justin Holiday (So.) 15, Elston Turner (Fr.) 13. So you had 2 freshmen play 13 and 18 minutes and one play 28...but you had 2 seniors, a junior, and a sophomore who played the majority after that. Plus another 2 sophomores. You "situation" last year was not even close to what ours was. Not the same turnover of players.

This year: you have 1 freshman playing significant minutes, and a heck of a lot of sophs, juniors, and a senior. Pondexter (Sr.) 32, Thomas (So.) 31, Overton (Jr.) 23, Bryan-Amaning (Jr.) 22, Holiday (Jr.) 21, Gaddy (Fr.) 18, Elston Turner (So.) 15, Scott Suggs (So.) 14, Darnell Gant (So.) 11. So again, not even close to the same situation.

Us this year: Bouldin (Sr.) 35, Gray (Jr.) 31, Harris (Fr.) 29, Sacre (So.) 25, Goodson (So.) 25, Kong (Fr.) 12, Olynyk (Fr.) 12, Arop (Fr.) 11. The next two in minutes were also freshmen Gibbs 9 and Vilarino 7. We had 1 senior...one...and one junior playing significant minutes, the rest were a couple sophs and a ton of freshmen.

There is a huge difference when you break it down.

I do wish you guys luck the rest of the way though.

dawgfather11
03-21-2010, 02:02 PM
The underlying message to your wavering point is that Gonzaga has no true leadership, but that your beloved Huskies do, right? You have come onto our boards after a difficult loss to spread your misguided wisdom and enlighten us with nonsense.

you can call it misguided, I see it for the truth, that's fine. I've been on here for a long time and these are my boards just as much as they are yours... Ignore the board name if it will help you out. As a zag fan I say this team was lacking leadership and the defensive coaching was non exsistent, which was my original point. You can only point to inexperience so much, I think it has more to do with my 2 points than your experience issue.

I've never been a fan of bouldin as a leader, and it does seem fitting that in the biggest and last game of his career he was non exsistent and his team folded. Now bouldin did have a great career overall with gonzaga noone is taking that away my only issue with him is his leadership. I had hopes early in the season with his good play in Maui that he had turned the corner, but it didn't last. As to the defensive issues, i'm not sure if it's coaching or just scheme but it's been bad for awhile and really needs to change if we want the zags to go far in the tournament!

BobZag
03-21-2010, 05:27 PM
There are reasons and there are excuses. The two are very different. An excuse is, say, a bad reffing call. A reason goes deeper. Just wanted to make that clear, fwiw.

jim77
03-21-2010, 06:01 PM
More random thoughts after my 4 hour drive around and think trip.

Matt has looked tired for at least 4 games....his eyes look dark and the guy really drops off in the 2nd half....maybe I'm imagining it. It wouldn't have mattered today because Syracuse was dialed in. The guy was in a tough position because regarless of his condition he HAD to play. The guy just looks flat rundown to me. I'd like to see us maybe cut one of those East coast trips out of the schedule....we should be peaking at the end...not dragging.

Our guards are our key next year and ALL need to refine their game....cause our front court is final 4 material. I can't wait to see the wraps come off of Dower. I REALLY hope GJ sticks around cause he's got the tools...Steven would NOT be my point next year cause he's gonna be the SG. There's plenty of room for GG, Meech and GJ....those 3 need to get together just the 3 of them and work together...Meech needs to improve the 3 and he will be right there. I have no doubt that he can improve his shot....GG needs to work on his physical properties and 3's and he'll be ok too. GJ needs to digest the system and polish his 3's too. You guards are the key to next season cause our BIGS are the real deal. Our future foes WILL SAGG on defense and you must make them pay........Great season and keep you're heads up!

btzag
03-21-2010, 06:02 PM
you can call it misguided, I see it for the truth, that's fine. I've been on here for a long time and these are my boards just as much as they are yours... Ignore the board name if it will help you out. As a zag fan I say this team was lacking leadership and the defensive coaching was non exsistent, which was my original point. You can only point to inexperience so much, I think it has more to do with my 2 points than your experience issue.

I've never been a fan of bouldin as a leader, and it does seem fitting that in the biggest and last game of his career he was non exsistent and his team folded. Now bouldin did have a great career overall with gonzaga noone is taking that away my only issue with him is his leadership. I had hopes early in the season with his good play in Maui that he had turned the corner, but it didn't last. As to the defensive issues, i'm not sure if it's coaching or just scheme but it's been bad for awhile and really needs to change if we want the zags to go far in the tournament!

Don't buy the defense argument at all. Syracuse was just unbelievably hot and that happens at this level. It's just a matter of if people want to realistic or positive or negative. Anyone who watched that game knows that Gonzaga made tons of adjustments defensively but Syracuse just extended farther out and hit shot after shot.

For negative people like you the reason will always be that the zags can't play D and we are over matched and blah blah blah. Positive zags will always say that we got unlucky and we are great and blah blah blah. Realistic zags will realize that every game is different and sometimes teams are hot and sometimes you play crap D.

Actually analyze the game next time and then post something. For example did Syracuse play great D? Bouldin, Gray, Kong, and Harris are above average 3-point shooters and had open threes all game. Is that great D to allow open 3's? Or is it only great D because our good shooters missed them?

Zag365
03-21-2010, 06:17 PM
Our guards are our key next year and ALL need to refine their game....cause our front court is final 4 material. I can't wait to see the wraps come off of Dower. I REALLY hope GJ sticks around cause he's got the tools...Steven would NOT be my point next year cause he's gonna be the SG. There's plenty of room for GG, Meech and GJ....those 3 need to get together just the 3 of them and work together...Meech needs to improve the 3 and he will be right there. I have no doubt that he can improve his shot....GG needs to work on his physical properties and 3's and he'll be ok too. GJ needs to digest the system and polish his 3's too. You guards are the key to next season cause our BIGS are the real deal. Our future foes WILL SAGG on defense and you must make them pay........Great season and keep you're heads up!

Couldn't agree more. This sums up my feelings exactly. Weird that GU's biggest question mark for next season is PG. Don't think that has been an issue in the last 11 years.

BobZag
03-21-2010, 06:22 PM
Couldn't agree more. This sums up my feelings exactly. Weird that GU's biggest question mark for next season is PG. Don't think that has been an issue in the last 11 years.

The staff was snookered a bit by how fast a kid could run, and forgot about the natural shooting PGs that got the Zags where they are. It's not the first time. Remember PMAC and Winston Brooks.

skan72
03-21-2010, 09:05 PM
GJ is a smooth scorer and has actually a nice looking pull-up. I saw it a lot in the past summer when he was coming in. He didn't get a ton of burn this year, but the guy can absolutely score. A year under his belt, he'll show you.

HillBillyZag
03-22-2010, 07:58 AM
Unless we learn to play DEFENSE, which is the great EQUALIZER, we will still be spinning our wheels. Look at NIU,for example, individually, I doubt that many of their staring five could break our lineup, but working TOGETHER, and playing DEFENSE, they are without a doubt a better TEAM. If Few does'nt want to stay man & be forced to guard McDonalds All-Americans one on one, then switch to the zone and learn how to play it? Either way we must learn how to DEFEND!

Once and Future Zag
03-22-2010, 08:39 AM
Let's look at some DEFENSE numbers here.

2010 Def Eff Rank: 65th
2009 Def Eff Rank: 18th
2008 Def Eff Rank: 33rd
2007 Def Eff Rank: 80th
2006 Def Eff Rank: 178th
2005 Def Eff Rank: 121th

So aside from a downturn this year - our defense has been steadily improving over the last half decade or so. 2006 being a downturn, I suspect because the team KNEW - and they were right- they could score at will against pretty much anyone.

Or... Northern Iowa's Def Eff over the last couple of years.

2010: 19th // Experience: 90th
2009: 122nd // Experience: 242nd
2008: 121st // Experience: 133rd
2007: 76th // Experience: 158th

Seems to show that experience seems to be a correlative stat for great defense, rather than the "system" or how it's taught.

Once we have a core group of these guys back (it does take more than a year) they'll be pretty good. I expect next year that Steven, Elias, Rob, and (presumably) Meech will have a full season under their belt together - we'll see an uptick in defensive efficiency.

Let's look at those GU numbers again.

2010 Def Eff Rank: 65th // Experience: 307th
2009 Def Eff Rank: 18th // Experience: 52nd
2008 Def Eff Rank: 33rd // Experience: 218th
2007 Def Eff Rank: 80th // Experience: 186th
2006 Def Eff Rank: 178th // Not available
2005 Def Eff Rank: 121th // Not available

rawkmandale
03-22-2010, 09:00 AM
Right on, Once and Future Zag. Thanks for the research. I LOVE research, and agree with your conclusion.

Perhaps you could do something regarding "sometimes the other team just shoots lights out, hence you lose."

GonzagaSwagga
03-22-2010, 09:23 AM
Gonzaga made tons of adjustments defensively but Syracuse just extended farther out and hit shot after shot.

Absolutely. Did all of you "Zags don't play D" folks see just how far out they were going on their shots? Past NBA range, almost to the point of laughability.



did Syracuse play great D? Bouldin, Gray, Kong, and Harris are above average 3-point shooters and had open threes all game. Is that great D to allow open 3's? Or is it only great D because our good shooters missed them?
Agreed. It looked like there was a lid on the bucket. We got as many open looks as they did, we just didn't hit em.

Once and Future Zag
03-22-2010, 09:39 AM
Absolutely. Did all of you "Zags don't play D" folks see just how far out they were going on their shots? Past NBA range, almost to the point of laughability.

Exactly - now maybe that's a habit the coaches need to look at because most players we've faced this year tend to shoot right at the line, not 3-4 feet back from it.